Making all abortions illegal, with the little side effect of taking away women's rights? Check and check with Amendment 48.
The state of Colorado might be the very first state to make both abortion and some methods of birth control totally illegal under any circumstances.…
Article comments
126 - JMVR
And what? If unique DNA denotes an independent person, it is then murder to terminate that individual. Not quite sure what you're asking for here.
127 - Les Slater
JMVR,
I think it is possible that at a certain level of brain damage that body may not be considered a person.
Let’s say it was me and a blood clot caused no oxygen to the brain for an extended amount of time. It would be possible that there was plenty of blood being pumped by the heart to supply itself and the rest of the body except higher functions of the brain. There could even have been artificial electrical stimulation of the heart muscles with the proper rhythms requiring not even lower level functioning of the brain. I would be in what is considered a vegetated state.
Even though much of my body might be functioning, there would be no me, no person, no personality, no personhood. There would be no functioning neurological basis for any memory of my previous life. My person, my life, would be over. There would be no me to have any stake in the survival of the remaining body.
However, it is possible, maybe in the future, that all functioning of the brain could be restored, maybe through some sort of stem cell therapy, or something else. The restoration could include the same DNA codes as the rest of the body, namely what used to define the unique body of Les Slater. The whole body could be restored to perfect health.
But would it be me? Without any memory of past functioning, of socialization, learning to negotiate my environment, with no education, no memory of, not to mention access to, my parents, who are long deceased, could I have any personality more than a newborn kitten, much less any part of what developed into what personality, personhood, that I have presently, writing this reply.
But, there would be potential. This fully developed, physical organism, could and would develop a personality. But it would not be me. It would be someone new. We would end up with a new, and of course, unique person, but not me.
Here we have a situation of a different, unique person, who is not Les Slater, but who has the same DNA.
DNA does NOT determine uniqueness of the individual.
Les
128 - JMVR
So are you attempting to equate brain activity with life?
129 - Les Slater
No, I am trying to demonstrate, by one example, that DNA uniqueness does not necessarily determine unique personhood.
I also demonstrate that a unique DNA must develop substantially before it can be considered any person, nevermind, a unique one.
130 - JMVR
Develop to what point, would you say? When, in your opinion, does "life" begin? You really can't say birth, as no significant developmental changes occur for the child during birth. So that really sort of leaves 3 options: conception, heart activity or brain activity.
The latter two occur three weeks into gestation. One of the more popular argements for conception is that, at that point, it begins. A series of events, if you will, has gone underway that will result in birth. So even if you refuse to acknowledge conception, you at least have to warrant it as one of the latter two markers.
131 - Dr Dreadful
And what? If unique DNA denotes an independent person, it is then murder to terminate that individual.
Exactly. This is the whole can of spermatozoa which the supporters of 48 keep insisting won't be opened.
If it becomes homicide to terminate at any point at all in the gestation period, then not only does abortion become murder, but so do certain forms of contraception. A pregnant woman could be charged with manslaughter if she crashed her car and lost the baby... or even if she miscarried after drinking alcohol when she didn't even know she was pregnant. A doctor would be wary of performing any medical procedure on a pregnant woman, and might be reluctant even to prescribe drugs to her for fear of possible homicide charges if something went wrong.
These are the sorts of 'gray area' cases which should be decided using common sense at a state law level (if they even get that far), not by an overriding, overweening and immutable constitutional decree.
132 - Dr Dreadful
When, in your opinion, does "life" begin? You really can't say birth, as no significant developmental changes occur for the child during birth. So that really sort of leaves 3 options: conception, heart activity or brain activity.
So how old are you, JMVR? What date do you (not to mention the entire world) reckon your age from?
How would you even determine the other three with any degree of reliability?
133 - Yamileth
How could anyone possibly agree to such a crime.
I mean in some cases yeah abortion should be allowed like in a rape situation or incest, but I mean if the girl was smart enough to open her legs then she should be smart enough to know the consequences. If she while doing this knowingly had sex then she should be responsible enough to take care of a child she had coming in a way.
But a rape victim didn't ask for what happened to her and had no say or choice in doing it with this guy, then she shouldn't have to carryaround a burden of a child she doesn't want. It will increase her suffering knowing how she got that child in the first place.
But serioulsy the people who are trying to stop are on crack or something!
134 - Kd
This doesn't force a women to be burdened with a baby. She can put the baby up for adoption if she doesn't want to raise the baby. Also in a lot of states she could bring the baby to a hospital or police station and safely leave the baby there and have no questions asked.
The fact is a baby is a baby even in the womb (why else would baby eagle eggs be so protected?) and this amendment is trying to protect them from being slaughtered by people who are "inconvenienced". I know of a married couple who had an abortion just cause they didn't want to start having kids yet. That's as selfish as you get. Let someone adopt that baby if you don't want him/her.
135 - Sane
If you don't like abortion, don't have one. Period.
A fetus is not a sentient being.
This whole anti-abortion movement is led by semi-literates, with a made-up deity to prop up their ignorance of basic biology.
Why don't these yokels outlaw spontaneous abortions, while they are at?
Phew!
136 - Cannonshop
#135 and Sane presents the OTHER extreme in the discussion.
#134 kd, in most states the mother can be charged with Child Abandonment/endangerment or Neglect-and face prison time for doing what you suggest. Most states also have social-services people at the hospital who can expedite legal adoption proceedings (Which is NOT child endangerment, abandonment, or neglect, but allows the kid's adoptive parents to have a medical history so that the kid can get treatment if/when something goes medically wrong.)
But it doesn't address certain core issues-like dangerous pregnancies (that is, pregnancies that can kill mommy AND infant), pregnancies that WILL result in burdens on society (most incestuous couplings produce seriously defective kids. Inbreeding BAD), nor does it address the fundamental right of the mother to all the same rights to property others have-if you don't own your own body, you're by definition a slave. Slavery corrupts both Master and slave, even if the "master" is the STATE and the Slave has the vote.
The point where the Mother's rights and the child's rights has to be balanced-I'm often surprised in real life by how many people who spout pro-life lines state a willingness to shoot trespassers on their property. Likewise, I'm often shocked at how "pro=choice" people will go to great lengths to preserve the lives of proven violent criminals by opposing the death penalty.
I myself am pro-death (or choice, take your pick) because I prefer to preserve the rights of non-criminal citizens already in existence, over the rights of potential human beings who are not in existence yet. I also favour execution for those who (like Ted Bundy) have proven that they do not deserve to live through their actions.
Google the actual TEXT of Roe-vs.-Wade, it provides a 'balance' point in the actual decision, and while I may not personally agree with it, it is reasonably sound, denying both "abortion on demand" And permitting Abortion under reasonable circumstances. Groups at both extremes have pushed and pushed this debate to the point of ridiculousness, both sides have shown an alarming interest in big-government as a tool to achieve what is a moral, rather than legal, debate.
137 - Joshua
I have read many statements concerning amendment 48 and the potential things that could happen as a result. However, if we are all truly honest with ourselves sex outside of marriage is a crime in and of itself. The people who are unwilling to admit such a truth do so because they have trapped themselves into a false reality attempting to justify moral decay, and the degrading of true virtue. If you look around when no one else is with you and in that quiet moment open your heart to reality it is very clear that as a society we need to make some big time changes, and perhaps one of those changes is that we should return to the kind of morals and virtues that so true respect one to another so that we can eliminate the false realities that seem so popular and yet are so self-destructive in more ways then just one. You can chose to deny the validity of these words all you want, but in the end you are only fooling yourself. Best wishes to all who read this.
138 - Christopher Rose
Joshua, I can't take your views seriously when you base them upon such a demonstrably incorrect sentiment such as
"However, if we are all truly honest with ourselves sex outside of marriage is a crime in and of itself."
I'm honest with myself almost all day long and I have never and probably will never agree with such a notion.
139 - janna
yeah that bull. if that amendment passes then Colorado is officially the dumbest state in the country. No one benefits from that, now we are going to have so many pregnant women, from age 13 and up. It’s not going to stop people from having sex, it’s just going to piss off a lot of people
140 - coloradowoman
So, if a fertilized egg is a "person" with the same rights as you and I then if a pregnant woman get's in a car accident that is her fault, but an accident and has a miscarriage, she would be charged with Vehicular Manslaughter, even if she didn't know she was pregnant. It would be just like if she killed someone in another car.
If she rides a horse while pregnant and has a miscarriage, would that be murder?
If you see a pregnant woman picking up something heavy, would you charge her with endangering a child?
You see the Pandora’s box this could open?
141 - Zoe
I would just like to say that I find your thoughts to be unjustified. How on earth is it equal rights to kill a baby yet it isnt fair if the mothers life is possibly at risk?! There is a definite death if abortion is committed, yet a possible death if the mother carries. And it is far more traumatizing to abort a baby and face all the pain and guilt of killing your own child then it is to carry the baby of incest. Please do not assume that your opinions are what's believed by people who have lived though the pain and guilt of having an abortion.
142 - Susan
And to comment #140- You are reading into this! The obscure stories of miscarrying is completely different then mudering the baby knowingly! If you consciencely go into murder the infant then the right of personhood comes into play, but if the mother miscarries from unknown causes then of course the mother isnt going to be charged with murder. The differences is nature causing the miscarriage of the hands of a doctor robbing the child of the chance to face nature and have the run of it himself. Dont be ignorant and make wild hair brain questions like that seem even plausible, BECAUSE THEY ARENT! This is pandoras box, this is a child life.
143 - sufimarie
to Susan @ #142: Just exactly how do you think there would be no "charges" against a miscarraige? Because of the findings of the investigation? Going in to "knowingly" kill the "infant" "consciencely(-- you didn't even use the correct word there,) is not what abortion is.
I know you feel bad for the babies. I am sure most people who are against abortion are really fighting for what they think is right but in reality they are having a major break from reality. The fight against abortion is the fight to control the uncontrollable, at the expense of freedom and liberty. Take a history lesson (not the bible, it doesn't count) and the try some compassion and not knee-jerk handwringing.
144 - Tiddles
Another yahoo idea from some radical right wing religious nut job who feels the need to force their ideals upon the whole world. This is yet another example of these idiots not only ignoring but blatantly disregarding everything that scientists have worked hard to teach us for years. A fertilized egg is just that, a fertilized egg....not a human by any means, a developing embryo. This is stupid, utterly stupid and I am shocked that anyone with any kind of education beyond the 3rd grade would conjure up such nonsense let alone support it. Despite the fact that I am surrounded by so many retarded ones, I am actually proud to be a human...however I find the thought of me being considered the same life form as a fertilized cell hanging out in some random chicks uterus highly insulting.
145 - Chris "UZ" White
Wow, almost 150 comments in such a short time. I'm touched by the amount of controversy and discussion my article has been able to bring about, I still feel that this is the most important amendment in quite a long time on the Colorado ballot.
It's the day before the big election day, so I'm making my final plea to the people with a couple of points that I would've put into the original article.
* Bar none, you cannot argue that if something happens with the baby where the mother dies or something similar, the baby won't be charged of anything. There is no "except for" or "unless" included in the amendment's wording. If a baby kills it's mother while being born, it'll have to serve a life sentence like any other murderer. I'd just love to live my life like that, eh?
* This amendment will still clog up the law system something awful. New laws and exception attempts all based on this one amendment will pop up daily for long amounts of time, stopping actual crimes from getting reported and stuck through the system. This is the dumbest thing since illegal drugs.
* Finally, even if you were considering voting yes on this amendment, please consider what America is supposed to be, and that is secular. Forcing your religious beliefs upon everyone else is not only unconstitutional, but incredibly selfish on your part. If you'd just consider that and only that... perhaps people will make the right choice.
* Vote Libertarian :D
146 - Pink Girl
I am against 48 just because it forces people to do "the right" thing. I know this sounds heartless but if you know you don't want to have a baby you don't want to have a baby. Whatever's on the inside of you is YOUR business and your bussiness alone. In the case of an unborn baby the father has a right to know so he has the chance to stand up and take on his responsibilty as a man. If he doesn't then he loses his say so in the matter and it's NO ONE else's business what the woman does after that. That's the problem with the Pro-Life side, because THEY think life is precious they think everyone should and not everyone does. That's why some people commit suicide. They try to make a law against killing YOURSELF by saying God doesn't approve. Well God's got it made it's us mortals that have to stuggle day to day with these horrible living conditions that have to worry about the people we bring into this world and why we might choose not to. So bottom line we all need to agree to disagree because you have no idea of what someone else is going through AND it's none of your business what someone else does with what's INSIDE their body!!!!
147 - hanna
Amendment 48 gives Colorado a bad name. I hope black-and-white thinking, 21 year-old Cristy Burton feels just as strongly if she's gang raped by a pack of hoodlums and is forced to bear a child with severe physical and mental disabilities. I hope she is prepared then to stand before everyone with her child in pride. But I doubt it - she'd run off quietly to abort that child straight away. Hypocrites, the whole lot of them!
148 - Kristina
I am a christian and I grew up in the church. Almost two months ago my boyfriend and I found out that we were pregnant and decided to have an abortion. It was the right decision for us. I can honestly say that there was no suffering for me. I was at work the next day feeling like I was having regular cramps. If this amendment passes then we are telling women all over Colorado that their views, their opinions, their feelings, and most of all, their rights no longer matter. I was not and am not ready for a kid and with all of the defective foster homes and adoption agencies out there, there was no way that adoption was an option. Honestly, I think that anyone who has never been in a position of having to make that decision has no idea what they believe. In September I did the opposite of what I lived my whole life telling myself I would do and I don't regret making that decision in any way. If you haven't voted yet, please vote no. Let women keep their rights.
149 - EJ
There's a lot of talk about the abortion spect of this, but what impact will this have on juvenile law? Currently, juveniles cannot legally speak for themselves and are not technically guaranteed the same legal rights as adults. Now you want to give those rights to a fetus? Do you then take them away when the kids reach a certain age or do you completely rework the legal system -- which would involve removing a parent's right to do what he or she feels is in the best interest of the child.
Further, I strongly appose abortion, but the fact of the matter is that a fetus simply is not a viable life form until at least 20 weeks. If you remove it from the woman's body it will simply die.
Regardless of what you feel the intent for this action may be, remember there is always someone more radical than you... Someone WILL use it to challenge the legality of contraception and quite possibly win depending on how the judge reads the intent. What happens then? People (esp kids) will not simply stop having sex because we want them to. The abstinence only approach has actually seen an INCREASE in teenage sexual activity since the Bush administration imposed it on the schools in 2001. (See the CDC reports)
Finally, let's not forget every day each of us kills millions of single celled organisms that CAN exist by themselves why don't we protect them while we're at it? Remember that God made those as well, and loves them too!
150 - Chad
Less than 1% of abortions are due to rape and incest. Lets kill the rest of the 99% because of the 1%. To me it is unbelievable. I love it that most people that are for this are also against killing animals. Wow, what has this world come to, Lord please help our nation, we do not know what we do.
151 - Life
For those who believe a fetus or embryo isn't a "sentient being" and that the unborn fetus is not a child, watch the video on www.durarealidad.com and tell me what you think. If you really think there is nothing wrong with abortion, then this video won't disturb you any more than "cutting your hair" does. After all, it's "just a clump of cells" like your hair follicles, right?
152 - Les Slater
Life,
You certainly have a right to your opinions, but Colorado voters rejected the 'embryonic personhood' amendment by a 3 to 1 margin.
Les
153 - Chris "UZ" White
OP HERE! AMENDMENT 48 WAS SOUNDLY DEFEATED!
Thanks, any of you who happened to live in Colorado. :D
154 - Floyd
"Take a history lesson (not the bible, it doesn't count) and the try some compassion and not knee-jerk handwringing."
#143 - There in lies the real issue. What gives you the authority to say that the Bible doesn't count? Are you a historicity professor? I majored in European history at a secular college. What I discovered is that there are 4 major tests to discover whether or not a document is historically accurate. These tests remember were taught at this institution that for the most part ridiculed me for being a Christian. So you can trust that they weren't trying to make me feel good. Did you know that the Bible has been proven, by those 4 independent tests, to be the most hisorically accurate document ever. This is widely accepted by even most non-Christian historians. So again, why not allow it to get into the debate. Unless, for the obvious reasons.
Also, the previous comment by Les assumes that if a majority votes to pass something, that immediatley means it is the right thing. I know that you didn't quite think that through Les, because for a long time the majority didn't let women, or african-americans, vote in this country. So, unless you support that view, which would now put you in the minority, then the majority at that time must have been wrong. So simply because something was not allowed to happen through voting, like the instances I just mentioned, doesn't make it the wrong thing do to. Sometimes it can be quite the opposite.
You would agree with that right?
#146 - Well God's got it made it's us mortals that have to stuggle day to day with these horrible living conditions...
Pink girl let me ask you this. Would you consider someone being hated by his own family, made to wander without a home, being falsely accussed, beaten within an inch of his life, nailed to a cross naked for all to see, stabbed in the side, and then buried with no funeral, not struggling and good living conditions??
Before you talk about God having it made, you should understand what He has done, and continues to do, for you. He knows about the horrible living conditions, He knows about how we all struggle daily. I, personally, had a very difficult childhood (4 different dads, alcholism, abuse, you name it), and I used to look at God and say "where the hell are you man!" Until I fully understood how much He has done for me, and how much He truly loves ALL of us, I felt just like you do. Maybe what I just wrote is just a bunch of foolish trash to you, but I hope not.
155 - Les Slater
Floyd,
"...Les assumes that if a majority votes to pass something, that immediatley means it is the right thing."
We are not talking abstract arguments here. We are talking specifically about an amendment conferring personhood to an undivided cell. The argument does not stand up to any notion of modern science. The sponsors were not able to sell this to a relative well educated population.
Your argument put this informed decision in the same category as supporting disenfranchisement of real people. I think you will find a better positive correlation with those that tend to support disenfranchisement and those that backed this amendment.
In a long average of things, this has to be seen as a moment of progress and enlightenment.
Les
156 - Vincent
Really relieved, after the last month passed discovering your beautiful colorado state, and listing radio/TV, seeing you have rejected amendment 48.
For those who still have regrets :
Please dear american cousin, listen your mother, sister, daughter, friends.... and allow her decided -herselseves- what they want to do with their own belly, and their resulting lives.
A child must be desired.
If after a long thought (and the night are clearly long when it's happened : long time to think) the potential mother (and the "father") doesn't feel in herself the courage to make and educate the child, (and even if it's for you a wrong choice), .....it's HER choice.
In every church, you grant forgiveness for the mistakes, and for those who believe in god you're proud of it (I don't believe in old legends, sorry, but I let the others done, if they fell better with), ; But.....why this "mistake" (or drama, in case of rape) should be definetly unforgivable ?
Vincent (France)
157 - Floyd
Les,
"...disenfranchisement of real people."
Who are real people in your opinion? Those that by modern science have been declared "real people"? You sound like a thinking person, so I am genuinely interested to hear what you have to say.
158 - Pink Girl
Floyd,
Thank you so much for proving my point. You tried to use jesus' CHOICE to insult me but he and god both made a CHOICE. As far as god doing things for me, you know absolutly nothing about me or my life experience so get off your soap box cause you don't know squat. The point i'm trying to get across is that NO ONE has the right to stop anybody from making a decision about what's going on INSIDE their body whether it's alive or not. As far as anyone that says an abortion is like getting a haircut is seriously misguided and anyone who believes that people who get an abortion truely believe that is misinformed. When I had my abortion do you honestly think I believed the counsler that told me that it was just tissue? NO!!! If I believed it was just tissue I wouldn't have cared about the situtation that I was in and exposed that poor child to it. Yes it hurts because I miss my baby, but I know that at the time I was NOT able to provide a safe enviorment for that baby. And if anyone tries to tell me that adoption was an option, one of my own family members became a ward of the state because of abuse and instead of putting her with safe family they put her in a foster home with people who beat and raped her. So I'm not handing my kid over to strager who could very easily fake the process and be an even worse fate than death.
159 - Floyd
Pink Girl,
Who's proving who's point?
"....you know absolutly nothing about me or my life experience so get off your soap box cause you don't know squat."
In one breath you talk about God as if you KNOW Him, but then rail against me because I presume to know you. I guess use it if it works for your argument right?
If you read my comments before that was my point exactly...you shouldn't bring God into it if you don't actually want to try and KNOW Him. But I can hear them now, for me when I speak about this topic, it's a soap box, but when you or pro-choicers talk about it...it's passion.
I'M not trying to guilt you. Also, don't blame me for things God has said. I simply CHOOSE to believe Him. If you feel guilt that's not MY doing. The tragedy is that you would feel and carry that guilt around for another second when you don't have to.
Furthermore, you speak as if you acknowledge that "it" was a "baby". So which is it? I don't doubt that it was a very painful and emotional experience for you, as it should have been.
When you speak about "...NOT being able to provide a safe enviroment for that baby" that is a slippery slope. What if my wife and I had a child, and then 6weeks later we got into a horrible accident. My wife dies, and I am a quadrapelegic. I am no longer able to work, or AT ALL provide a safe enviroment for my baby. Can I kill it? That kind of logic to support abortion falls apart before it even gets started. If you are going to have the debate then it must be on "what is life?" Then we can talk about who has the right to do what.
160 - Dr. Rajanna
Every embryo in the early stages of development within the womb should be aborted unless the embryo itself agrees to be born. No one should be forced into to being born.
161 - Floyd
#160 Why? On what authority are you basing your argument? It sounds as if you are stating that they are alive and should have rights. Is that correct? Who gives them rights? Embryo cannot verbally speak to request this, so is silence a vote in favor of or against birth? If against, we cease to exist, if for then ALL should be born. Correct? Your logic is so feeble that I hesitate to repsond, but let's see it through shall we. Let's just say your married, and your wife is pregnant. The baby (embryo) cannot audibly speak or gesture in an agreed upon manner for or against birth. What do we do? Please respond... your baby, and millions of others hang in the balance.
162 - Pink Girl
You know what? Whatever! Obviously you really believe you're right and you are entitled to your opinion. Don't you dare take me missing my BABY as guilt. I did what I had to. All that crap you said as if you been though what I had I don't see anything that actually lead you to a life or death situation.
As far as knowing god, I only brought him up because YOU started in with jesus. Also I was raised by a religious fanantic just like you, so I do KNOW about your terroristic beliefs. Yes somewhere in your twisted little brain somehow I'm the terrorist bringing death and destruction, even though I'm not the one who believes that some invisible guy is going to punish me because of some choices I made. I'm by no means saying you shouldn't feel the way you do about abortion but pulling dumb senerios out of your butt and telling people about god is NOT going to get what you want accomplished.
I didn't tell the people on this site about my abortion so you(the pro-closed minded) could say "got what you deserved." I'm trying to show you how people like you are actually hurting your own cause. You keep preaching to everyone and no one wants to hear it because you're more worried about the baby they don't want instead of what they're going through, so naturally they don't care what you have to say and the baby will die anyway. It will always remain so as long as pro-lifers keep sticking their noses where they don't belong without first trying to understand why a person feels that that's the option that they have.
As much as we as a society try to pretend we've made so much progress, we really haven't. What about the girl that has sex with someone outside of her race and is now afraid her family will disown her? Shelfish? Yes, but it's a real problem that many girls still have to face. What about the girl who was told by some jerk that he'd be there so she leaves everything behind to raise his child only to find out that he's married to some other woman and never intended to help her and her child out at all?
This stuff happens everyday and it's easy to sit around and judge when you haven't been through it. I know these women and call us all what you will but this was what we did and somehow we can all be better for it because we KNOW what happens before, during, and after and we can really help people whatever they decide.
163 - Pink Girl
Strike the god comment. But pro-lifers do like to throw that around alot and they need to stop
164 - guy who should have no voice in a WOMENS decision
Alright yall, lets say youre wife is on her way home and gets carjacked. Then suspect decides shes too hot to get away and rapes her, do you keep the child? 2 1/2 months later youre told that if she goes through with the birth her kidneys will die, giving her less than a year to live on dialasis, do you still keep them? Please keep in mind donor lists are YEARS long. Now fast forward to 6 1/2 months later,said child is diagnosed with AIDS, still happy about youre choice? Sounds far-fetched? Its not,every day hundreds of women are raped and left with longer lasting effects than abbortion, like disease and mental illness. Thats not to say abbortion doesnt have a list of side effects as long as my arm, but givin the correct information any and all women are perfectly capable of making an informed, healthy deciscion about there body, child, and life. To "outlaw" abortion is not the way to handle this debate. Information is.
165 - Floyd
Pink girl, do you really see me as a religous fanatic, and a terrorist?? As a father of two children don't I have as much of a right to fight for the right to life cause as you have to defend the abortion cause? I am simply trying to have a thoughtful debate, and you go to name calling. That's seem to be the way it is in this most critical cause. The ones who want to talk about the reasons why a chld shouldn't be aborted are fanatics or zealots, and the ones who want to defend abortion are "open minded."