That's just warmongering fantasy:Iraqi police have arrested four al-Qaeda-linked suspects in the bombing of Iraq's holiest Shiite Muslim shrine, a senior police official told The Associated Press on Saturday.…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Article comments
26 - The Theory
hey now, what's wrong with Pizza Hut's pineapple pizza? I've been quite fond of it, msyelf...
27 - Jim Carruthers
Since the connection between the franchise of So-Cal Punk Rock by Brett Gurewitz and Iraq hasn't been established, we can't rest easy.
Let's face it, the USA has slid into a morass where the lesser evil isn't a choice.
Outside the USA, we can only see a nation slip into madness, and since they are the only G8 country without a public health plan, there's nothing we can prescribe.
Get help.
28 - Dawn
Jim,
I am curious, since you seem so erudite about a country which you do not reside in and their policies, what are your thoughts on French.
They are friendly with you Canadians and I find their policies reprehensible, anti-Semetic, anti-American and hypocritical, or are you only a hater of the U.S.
I am glad I don't take my dislike of French policies out on the Canadians. Cause if it smells French, looks French and acts French, well it must BE French.
29 - Al Barger
Really, Jim "you are advocating all out fascism." If you are trying to kill US, helping those who are or (to acknowledge the unfortunately unavoidable part), standing too close to those that are, then you might get killed.
You can label this as "fascism" if you want, but that renders the term meaningless. Self-defense does not constitute fascism in any real meaning of the word. That's just a little intellectual package deal where you try to get away with saying that Dubya is a Nazi because you label him a "fascist" even though his actions have little or nothing in common with the Third Reich.
And yeah, I don't much dig the pineapple-pizza combo. It's kinda nasty. Still, it's OUR nasty pizza, so the hatas best lay off.
30 - mike
Who cares if the French, the Canadians, the Germans, the Russians, the Sunnis, the Turks, the Palestinians, the Brazilians, the Venezualens, the Cubans, the Swedish, the Finnish, the Danes, the Dutch, the Chilians, the Mexicans, the Argentines, the Belgians, the Indonesians, the Somalis, the South Africans, the Nigerians, the Costa Ricans, the Ethiopians, the Japanese, the Chinese, the Congolese, the Ecuadorans, the Salvadorans, the Angolans, the Hondurans, the Nambians, and the Pakistanis hate us? All of them hate freedom. We are the victims.
31 - Jim Carruthers
Y'know, I watched "The Gangs Of New York" this week, and a big part of the movie was the "natives", which in the accompaning features were known as the "Know Nothings".
They still live:
Cis mon grain.
32 - Dawn
Then Jim, you must be a "native" as well.
33 - John Mudd
As a true conservative, I feel demeaned by the fact that the spin of "We attacked Iraq to defend ourselves" continues to be used.
When will my fellow Republicans relies that we elected President W. to get rid of a liar, and now the replacement is lying to us?
Boy, we sure must be desparate to remain in control of the White House.
My question is, though, what lie will we come up with next?
How about this: The Clinton tax increase is responsible for the ballooning federal budget deficit.
Or...
Even though there was a "plan" to attack Al Quaeda on Connie Rice's desk the day before Sept. 11, there's no way that the Administration could have allowed for the event to happen so it could carry out it's own political agenda, which appears to be exactly what happened. The Administration still clings to the false "war on terror" to keep its poll ratings high, but ineffectively, since everyone can see it's a false war on terror at the moment. The "rally around the flag" effect doesn't last forever, people, and neither do smokescreens that people can see through when carefully looking.
There's a website for my fellow conservatives who are still in denial. Visit it, please. It's called www.GetAClue.com.
Did anyone see how much money Halliburton made off the war with Iraq?
"I did not have inappropriate relations with that company - Halliburton."
Sound familiar?
Hopefully, by now, though, you realize that Bush is not a real, true conservative, and is no more honest than Bill Clinton.
I think it's time for change. Put a real person in the White House.
34 - Jim Carruthers
Man, if the last best defense of 'murrica is PizzaSlut, wack ass cardboard, wage-slave piece of food-like substance, then, you gotta a whole lotta big ass yo' momma problems goin' on.
You've imposed a faux-war in aid of helping Shrub buy an election he couldn't win, you cripple your neighbour with tarrifs after imposing a "free-trade agreement", you set out to antogoniziation every nation and then pull the victim card on Opraph -- give me a break, I'll take Emimiem as my babysitter first.
35 - Natalie Davis
Jim Carruthers, Mike, and other BCers of peace, I humbly bow to you in gratitude.
You too, true conservative John Mudd.
Down with the Bush empire! Down with violence and bloodlust, be it pro- or anti-US! Tremble tyrants and killers, the shame of all good people. Tremble! Your homicidal schemes will receive their just reward.
Not in this life, perhaps. Certainly not, I pray, on the edge of a bayonet, by a missile of lead, or in a mushroom cloud's wake. But in the end, there will be retribution against those who live by the sword or cheer on the wielders of death's implements.
Vive la France! And down with Pizza Hut!
36 - The Theory
man Natalie, you had me up til the last statement there. I still worship Pizza Hut as being the greasiest, well spent all you can eat buffet around.
37 - Natalie Davis
Some people do like it. I am not one of them, never have been. Then again, I try to avoid grease. Vive la difference.
38 - Eric Olsen
After I saw it butchered at a dinner theater I had a greater appreciation for the film
39 - Natalie Davis
lol...
40 - Steve Rhodes
You all (meaning war supporters) really don't respond to all the evidence that Bush has fucked things up. Even military leaders have admitted the standard "mistakes were made."
We don't have suicide bombers at Pizza Hut, just lots of workplace shootings like the one at the Chicago warehouse or the racist rampage Lockheed Martin.
And the Republican block any kind of additional sensible gun laws (and will say fuck you to everyone who died at 101 California in San Francisico by blocking the extension fo the assault weapons ban).
41 - Al Barger
Mr. Rhodes, if I see You All, I'll pass on your criticism. In the meantime, Al Barger frequently and vigorously criticizes the Bush administration.
I'll cut him and Ashcroft some considerable amount of slack, because I know they have great responsibilities and lots of conflicting pressure from all sides. Plus, I don't know everything. I would not be real likely, for example, to make a lot of criticism about specific military strategies, as I have limited knowledge of such things. Still, the general tenor of carefully but actively applying military pressure in the region seems approximately right.
Nonetheless, I for one will cuss the bastards up one side and down the other where it's appropriate. I understand, but am still un-thrilled with the restraints the administration has put on Israel, most notably. Bush should absolutely take the leash off.
No doubt Bush has made mistakes in conducting the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. I would tend to think that perhaps we should generally be a little harsher than we have been. Doubtless things could have been done somewhat better, if we knew then what we know now and if some of the different political pressures were removed.
Still, the big picture indicates that by my best judgment, Dubya is doing pretty good overall in Iraq. It ain't perfect, and it ain't pretty, but it had to be done. Dubya has made a good attempt to get the nasty people, and to do so with the minimum number of civillians and American soldiers killed. No war can be perfect or totally blood free in the real world, but that doesn't mean they don't have to be fought.
Lotta love for Miss Natalie, but her cheap pacifist crap is just that. What kind of bullshit is humbly bowing in gratitude to Jim Carruthers? He ain't done shit but carp against those who are defending the free world.
Perhaps you could bow in humble gratitude to those badass Navy Seals and Air Force pilots and such who are keeping your ass free and alive. Even if you move to Canada, it'll be cool cause our bravest and best are whipping that ass for the whole free world.
Nope, we don't have suicide bombers at our Pizza Huts. In significant part, that's because Ashcroft has been up their asses, with the feds busting numerous plots up before they reached fruition. Partly also, it's because a lot of the jihadist jackasses are busy shooting at our soldiers in Iraq. Better to fight them in the Middle East than the Middle West, I say.
Tremble tyrants and killers, the shame of all good people. Tremble! Your homicidal schemes will receive their just reward. That's right, buddy. Dubya's putting on the cowboy boots and coming for YOU.
42 - Michael Croft
Given the Wahhabism is the religion of the House of Saud and is being exported by our allies in Saudi Arabia wherever they can encourage it, that sentence should cause considerable concern not about our allies.
Eric, I also can't see this as providing any additional support for supposed links between al-Queda and the former government of Iraq. It looks like it hurts such a case--were it possible to make the case less compelling this would do it. The article is very clear, the people captured were recently entered foreigners who belonged to a sect of Islam common to Saudi and al-Queda.
Do you see this as adding support to a pre-invasion al-Queda/Iraq link or are we misreading you?
43 - Michael Croft
And I hate my own editing skills. I suck, and I apologize.
should read44 - mike
"Plus, I don't know everything."
Al, I think you meant to say "anything."
45 - Al Barger
Daddy Eric, bad old Larkin is saying mean ad hominem things about me! Make him stop ad homineming me! He's driving away readers! It's not fair. My feelings are hurt. I'm going to cry. Boo hoo hoo!
46 - Michael Croft
Aside: Al, yes, the tone of the site is disappointingly uncivil and it does keep people from bothering to read/post and it's pretty frustrating.
While there are three columns of useful and interesting superior media criticism, there's a fourth column on the front page of the same political talking-past-each-other that is available on political blogs of your favorite flavor everywhere. How many of the comments on this thread are going to change anyone's mind?
At times I can't even keep myself from being mean in comments here when someone says something stupid, but I wish I could. I don't go to the big political blogs because I don't like the tone and I don't like the kinds of things I'll say in comments on them. I don't want that to be the direction Blogcritics goes.
I don't think Blogcritics can or should avoid politics (how can we with the RIAA or the Fox/Franken lawsuit?), but I hate the Et Cetera category. It distracts from and at times threatens to overwhelm what I had hoped was going to be a sharp focus on music, books, film, popular culture, and technology.
Yes, this little rant would be better if I had some concrete suggestions instead of a whinge about my dissatisfaction, but I don't have any. I just wish I didn't worry about Blogcritics lurching towards the lowest common denominator.
47 - Craig Lyndall
"Admit it: you were wrong about the war. It's time to bring our troops home. They're dying for oil, Likkud, and the Republican National Committee, not the U.S. national interest, and those who sent them in have blood on their hands. I opposed the war, and my hands are clean. I'm completely vindicated."
Speaking of Mike... He felt the need to drop this gem and it finally occurred to me why I can't stand Mike's arguments. Whether he is making the kind of statement above or is offering to dole out his portion of the taxes to anyone and everyone who wasn't against the war like he was, he is constantly making it about him. I WAS RIGHT. I AM NOT GOING TO PAY FOR THIS WITH MY TAXES. I'M COMPLETELY VINDICATED.
Really Mike, what is it about this issue that makes it all about you? Is there something rewarding about you getting to go to sleep at night comfortably with a smile of artificial smugness? I think you have some real issues that might be fleshed out on a leather couch near you. If this is a cry for help, well, I am answering that cry. I will refer you to a local mental health specialist so you can realize that the world doesn't revolve around Mikey.
Good Luck.
48 - Eric Olsen
Michael, No, I'm not saying this and similar episodes is evidence of an Iraq-al Qaeda connection prior to the war - it is clear that Islamist terrorists have been taking advantage of the post-war chaos to infiltrate. But I am saying that these terrorists and Saddam's government arise from the same problems that must be addressed without compromise. To use the cliche, they are both coming from the same swamp, and (at the risk of sounding like Ann Coulter, who is an idiot) the swamp must be drained.
I don't know what the direct Baathist-al Qeada was before the war, I don't know what the WMD situation was before the war, although I have zero doubt that there were illegal weapons at some point and they are somewhere, but what those opposed to the war don't seem to understand is that it doesn't much matter - the war was the right thing to do regardless.
This is still a brutal, violent, stupid world, and sometimes unleashing directed, contained violence is the only way to make a point. We can wish it were otherwise with all our might and it won't make it so. There are still a significant number of unredeemable, murderous thugs who understand nothing but force. They must be eliminated - that process has begun and must be continued, period. That is my view of the situation in general. The details count, but not nearly as much as the big picture - the American public seems to understand this and is being remarkably tolerant of casualties, which I think about every day, but which doesn't change the big picture.
49 - Natalie Davis
When one's taxes, against one's will, are going toward an immoral enterprise one does not support, that is personal. As is the state of one's conscience and soul. It means a great deal to me to know that where Bush's murderous campaign is concerned, my conscience is clear, my hands are clean.
BUT: I agree none of us, wherever we sit on the ideological spectrum, is better than anyone else. The "ha ha, I was right and you were wrong" routine is disappointing.
50 - Eric Olsen
Regarding the tone of the site, I guess I just have to respectfully disagree with the assertion that the overall tone is uncivil: politics inevitably draw heated passionate reactions. That's just the way it is. This site was basically free of contentious politics from the end of the war until recently - these things come up when they come up.
If people don't like the political aspect of the site, they certainly don't have to go there. I never expect anyone to read everything - I am perfectly happy if they have a favorite area and visit that regularly.
I am very well aware of the tone at the "big political sites" and ours is virtually always much more congenial, respectful and friendly. People get worked up sometimes - how is this bad?
What seems to be missing is an understanding that this is a group site where the members all have equal right to express themselves as they see fit within certain very broad parameters of civility and there will never be any guarantees that an individual won't see something that upsets, offends, irritates, or even disgusts him/her. I am trying very hard to picture how it could be otherwise.
I don't want to see hate speech, I don't want to see vulgar personal attacks - what am I supposed to limit beyond that?
This is a democracy in action and democracy can be a very messy thing.
51 - Craig Lyndall
Eric the one thing that I do appreciate as I continue to get involved in the blogcritics community is that you do everything you can to be just the community's most active member, which any one of us (given the time) are free to try and take away from you. I don't always agree with you, and we know there are a lot of other people who don't agree with you, but people have to know that you are doing your part to keep the playing field level for everyone including yourself.
I think that was a point of frustration in some of the recent controversy where people expected you to act like a dictator instead of just another member of the community.
52 - Eric Olsen
I appreciate that Craig, but I also appreciate everyone who participates whether they agree with me or not on any given issue - my opinion is just my opinion, nothing magical about it, and I even change my mind from time to time.
It would be great if no one ever got upset, made personal attacks, argued like the fucking Oxford debate team, but this not possible to enforce without unduly cramping people's style. I am open to any specific suggestion as to how to make the site more satisfying to one and all - it's not a destination but a process.
53 - Jim Carruthers
He ain't done shit but carp against those who are defending the free world.
Well, actually, I spent seven years in the Canadian Navy (the only cook and combat diver, so I can kill you with explosives or the salmon mousse, your choice), and have all the collerateral to prove it, nancy boy. I did my time, what have you done to put your ass on the line?
54 - Jim Carruthers
I've finally discovered the proper term for the people who rule the USA: capons. The chief capon today announced blah, blah, blah, etc.
Emasculated strutting chickens. Capons.
55 - Michael Croft
Eric,
I guess you will have to disagree with my assertion that the overall tone is uncivil, but I'd like to point out that this very thread contains the comment "shut the hell up you neoliberal asspeak." There are more examples from the left, the right, and other extremes, but that was the one that made me feel the desire to speak up.
I am not averse to seeing things that I disagree with, but if this meets the community standard for civil discourse, then I'm happy I'm out of line with those standards. I find it disappointing and frustrating because it shuts down communication instead of fostering it.
I do see a difference between posts in Et Cetera and posts that are at least tied to some book, movie, technology, or musical criticism. I think the unrelated posts distract from the uniqueness of this collaborative effort in criticism, dilute the superiority of our cabal, and diminish the value of the site in general.
This is not democracy in action. Democracy implies process and group action based on polled collective opinion, this is anarchy limited mostly by technology. If it were democracy, we'd have a referendum, put "eliminate the Et Cetera category and require all posts to be in some way relevant to criticism of books, movies, tech, or music." We'd discuss it and vote on it and implement it on the wishes of the majority. Or we might have "tell Croft to 'shut the hell up' because he's a neoliberal asspeak" as an issue up for a vote. Democracy does not inherently protect from the tyranny of the majority.
We don't have those kinds of institutions, which may be good or bad. Clay Shirky argues in A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy that communities that don't have rules about how to make rules inevitably fail.
I hope he is either simply wrong or that we can change Blogcritics to preserve and promote the incredible things without losing them in the decreasing signal-to-noise ratio.
56 - Natalie Davis
Problem is -- and I do see your point -- but there are many fine Et Cetera writings. Yes, there is a lot of meanspirited junk, but are we willing to lose the quality material?
57 - Michael Croft
Eric,
When you say "these terrorists and Saddam's government arise from the same problems that must be addressed without compromise," there are probably a lot of people who could agree with you. For example, I might, if I were sure that you and I meant the same things by "problems." Serious isolationists (and such a strain does still exist) might assume you mean that they both arise from US intervention in the area. Economic historians might assume you meant the poverty and lack of opportunity in the Middle East. You might mean that the US is forced to be engaged in the Middle East due to reliance on oil and that we could tell them all to go hang if we didn't need the region to be stable. So, what's the shape and the smell of the swamp, how did it fill and when we drain it, where will the runoff go?
I'll have to disagree with your second paragraph and agree with George Will who said:
How far does our right and/or responsibility to smash brutal dictators go?
58 - Michael Croft
Natalie:
I dunno. I'm not even sure I am, that was a hypothetical "democratic" option, not a serious proposal. If we were a democracy and someone called for a vote, I'd consider it, but I'm not advocating it.
I think there are lots of outlets for the non-media related stuff. I see your point of course, which is why I mentioned that I don't have a solution, just a concern.
What made you want to join Blogcritics when Eric proposed it? I know for me, it wasn't the hope that it would be an open forum for political oneupsmanship.
59 - Eric Olsen
First, I am glad that people care enough to debate the format of Blogcritics - it's nice to know people care. What we really seem to be talking about are general political posts, which some have objected to from the beginning of their introduction as not fitting the overall tone. There is some truth to that as I have noticed the pure political posts tend to go away when there isn't something large, like war or a presidential election, forcing the issue.
There are plenty of other political sites, and they tend to breed uncivility, but we seem unique in specializing n the intersection between politics and the media - perhaps we should consciously concentrate on that. I believe I subconcsciously do that myself.
As far as examples of uncivility - sure that one wasn't nice, and there are many others, but I was referring to the overall level, which is better than LGF, for example. InstPundit can't even have comments because things degenerate too quickly and Glenn doesn't want to have to police it 24/7. I also sense that here people reach a certain level of familiarity and feel free to use hyperbole they perhaps would not use with strangers.
As I freely admit, this isn't perfect, but I would say it is closer to democracy than to anarchy.
60 - Eric Olsen
Re my political statement - for now it isn't the general class of brutal dictators per se that make up the swamp, it is specifically the Middle East and to a lesser extent the Islamic world in general that that must be addressed. That is where the greatest danger to the free world exists.
I also should make it clear I don't see Saudi Arabia as our friend, and this blind spot is Bush's greatest failure regarding terror policy, which is otherwise about right.
61 - Craig Lyndall
I think the best way to solve the problem of people not being civil is just how we are doing it. We need to have a group of strong personalities who know the difference between debate and name-calling.
I fall into the trap of getting personal every now and then too, but if we have enough people who keep commenting, keep their heads and self-police the space that is all our work, then we will be fine.
Every now and then we need a reminder like right now that there are real humans behind the posts and then I think it will become civil again. I don't think we need a complicated voting system or a ban on topics, because we have some seriously good non-media articles on here in my opinion.
I would hate to lose that content.
62 - Jim Carruthers
Group hug, c'mon everybody.
Even the lepers. And the Michael Jackson fans.
What? What'd I say?