Chávez' obsession with demonizing Bush is hurting his people.
Venezuela’s president-cum-dictator, Hugo Chávez, consumed by his hatred for the United States and President George W. Bush, continued his attempts to disrupt Bush’s fence-mending trip to Latin America by leading a protest rally in Argentina on Friday.…
Article comments
26 - GWEH
Paul2:
That's www.venezuelatoday.net
"Your one-stop source for the latest news & info"
Go read and learn
that website has all the relevant English and Spanish links from both sides. The reader decides. How's that for fair and balanced?
My comments are not aimed at you Paul2. The are for the folks who visit this article. You are correct about us not bothering to discuss with idiots like you.
27 - Paul2
If your comments aren't aimed at me, than don't adress me in the first place.
And don't call me an idiot when you're unable to make a substantiated comment about any of the issues adressed other than "his supporters are either stealing, misinformed, or ignorant."
28 - BriMan
First the IMF and Venezuelan elites sell out the Venezuelan people, Texaco and others rape their resources and trash the environment, Chavez gets popularly elected, the CIA tries to f- that all up, Bush and his supporters threaten Chavez with his life (minimal US press), Chavez calls Bush evil (maximum US press) and Chavez cant clean up the mess quick enough to make Clavos and Dave happy.
One lie is that Chavez hates the United States - he hates our government along with half of all Americans who dislike Kool-Aid as well.
Another lie but not about Venezuela per se is that Bush is touring S. America to mend fences. That would require Bush to admit his foreign policy to date has been a failure and he hasnt done so. For instance, he goes to Brazil to ask for help supplying America with ethanol (they make it out of sugar-cane there - a much more efficient form of ethanol) but Bush refuses to lower tariffs to import the stuff. Not very pragmatic for a fence-mender I'd say.
And one last point about how desperate the tone of this article is - really rich Bolivian ranchers dont like Chavez meddling in their country!! Poor rich ranchers - might have to give some land back to the people they stole it from...almost made me cry ---- with laughter!!!
29 - Dave Nalle
really rich Bolivian ranchers dont like Chavez meddling in their country!! Poor rich ranchers - might have to give some land back to the people they stole it from
This shows the typical lack of understanding of the brainless left when it comes to exploitation of natural resources. The people they 'stole' the land from were hardly using it and easily relocatable. The land itself had little or no intrinsic value. Almost all of the value in the land came from clearing and cultivating it and from importing and maintaining the cattle on it. All of this a massive investment of generations of labor, which 'paid' for the land hundreds of times over and far more than the physical land itself was ever worth. When you take that land away from the rancher, you're taking away everything he and his family ever had - every bit of savings and hard work and giving it to someone who didn't do that work and didn't earn that land. It's disgusting.
Dave
30 - soontobeexpat
Clavos! You hit it on the head man! I am a Venezuelan, living in Caracas. Inflation rate you name is a LIE. I buy at the supermarket every week, what is left, mind you. You can flip over at the cash register EVERY TIME. I have receipts saved from every purchase I make, from 2000 to now. FORGET about those numbers you get from the Central Bank...
The truth is that many "ideologists" want to believe Chavez's words and propaganda at face value. Many are based on information from internal sources, or information that is fed into the mainstream news sources as "real". Hitler and Goebbels were master minds of this technique and if the message doesn't convice you, at least it confuses (as you can read in all the comments) You need only to step foot inside a public hospital, a public school or one of the famous health systems (Barrio Adentro I, II, III or IV) to understand what is happening. It SEEMS wonderful on paper, on ads in TV spots and documentaries produced by the government, but it is pitiful in reality.
The votes you say? I just had a long talk with a good friend of mine that works INSIDE the CNE (Electoral council) She has been there for 13 years and is a good friend of the VicePresident (Who was before the president of the Electoral Council) She said to ME (Not a news agency, not the OAS... to ME) there is a "black box", meaning an unreachable part of the database, that has 2.5 million votes already accounted to Chavez, votes that don't change EVER, no matter what election goes on. That is how you explain that 12 million electors voted in 33 thousand machines in less than 10 hours (polling places are open from 6 am to 4 pm). That gives us a rate of 1 vote every 98 seconds in EVERY machine, without stopping even for a breath and without taking into account that most voting places did not even start at 6 am at all. THe evidence is plainly there, but ONLY TIME will finally set the truth. We now know who Hitler really was, even though many around the world would not have accepted you criticize him in 1933, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38 ,39, etc, etc. We will know who Chavez really is and those fanatics will be the FIRST, hear me well, FIRST to say they never, ever in a lifetime defended Chavez or his policies.
And that my friend is a lesson to be learned, after a country has been destroyed, the fanatic defenders of the regime won't be there to pick up the pieces... This is also why so many government people are sending their families out of Venezuela, they already know...
31 - moonraven
Same old shit:
1. Clavos and Dave [Personal attack deleted] posts a bunch of lies and disinformation about Venezuela--quote marks included in the original post but no source sited. How original can you rednecks get?
2. Other folks post information and facts--WITH SOURCES--that COMPLETELY refute the Clavos/Dave post of OPINION.
3. Clavos/Dave insults the poster who has refuted him with facts and information, and then tries to take the moral high road when confronted.
4. Dave and Clavos slip a couple of their cloned posters into the mix to try to gang up on the folks who have facts and information on their side. I am surprised that Vox Poluli was not trotted out again....
The bottom line is:
1. Neither Clavos [Personal attack deleted] nor Dave has ever been to Venezuela. Clavos does hang out with the Posada Gang of terrorists in South Florida--hence his obvious bias. (Maybe they even give him leads on narcos in need of fast boats?)
2. Neither of these jokers ever reads ANYTHING--in Spanish or in English. They just make it up as they go along.
3. The Chavez tour speaks for itself--it's Chavez on all the front page in Latin America over the past few days. Not Bush. I ought to know--I LIVE HERE! Here there have been massive--and I mean MASSIVE--street protests in Sao Paulo, Montevideo, Bogota, Guatemala and the lines are now in place for "bombas yucatecas" (Merida is the site for the Mexico meeting). NOBODY has anything good to say for Bush. The papers are full of pieces on the order of "Bush: Peligro para America Latina".
The propaganda machine of the White House didn't work, so why bother to listen to pennyante rednecks like Dave/Clavos?
Point of fact: clavos indicated that Chavez LEAD a protest ralley on Friday. Wrong, as usual. Las Madres de la Plaza del Mayo organized and lead the rally--for those of you who don't know who they are, they are the mothers and grandmothers of victims of Argentina's dictatorship in the 70s and 80s that was SUPPORTED BY THE US.
Chavez just happened to be the most important speaker....
32 - moonraven
The soontobeexpat has pretty good English. I happen to know that the folks who take English classes in Caracas are "escualidos".
Cero credibilidad, compa.
33 - Zedd
Did anyone say Dave + moral high road in one sentence??
That's just wrong on so many levels.
Clavos
You've got to give it to MR #1 was funny, even though I blushed profusely.
34 - BriMan
Dave-
Your bleeding heart for the downtrodden, criminally rich makes me swoon - in hysterical amusement!!
If I took your logic, applied it to the indigenous population and took the perspective that unexploited land has inherent wealth and beauty beyond just its monetary value without the interference of man then I could easily come to a similar conclusion about the original inhabitants who WERE THERE FIRST!!
By your logic - married women who are not getting laid are fair game due to lack of use!!
God - I couldnt make this shit up in my wildest dreams! Only clear cut land has any value - WOW!
Are you really f-ing serious?
35 - Dave Nalle
#31 was damned funny coming right after #30. Here's MR ranting on and on about how we know nothing about Venezuela because everything in the news is lies and right above her someone posting FROM Venezuela is telling us we're UNDERSTATING how bad things really are. Truly rich. So much for the credibility of MR and the other propagandists.
Dave
36 - Dave Nalle
Just to help MR out, I just confirmed that not only are none of the people commenting here 'clones', but I also confirmed that the Venezuelan commenting in #30 is indeed posting from Caracas. But I'm sure she can discount his first hand knowledge from inside Chavezistan.
Dave
37 - Dave Nalle
God - I couldnt make this shit up in my wildest dreams! Only clear cut land has any value - WOW!
Maybe you ought to leave the dream world and enter the world of reality. The value of that land derives far more from the labor put into clearing, planting and maintaining it than from any intrinsic value of the land. That's just a basic fact of colonial agriculture. Sorry if it bothers you.
Dave
38 - moonraven
Dave Nalle is the Fox Guarding the Henhouse. Now he tells us--assures us, no less--that there are none of HIS CLONES on the thread.
How funny!
The guy from Caracas is an escualido--that's all that's necessary to say. There are also vendepatrias here in Mexico--but no one gives them any credibility.
39 - alessandro nicolo
bloomberg
The Economist
Latin Focus may be of service too.
Moonraven - she who holds the Chalice of Truth - hates it when foreigners comment on South America yet she believes - while living abroad - 9/11 was an inside job - without fact and/or reason. Socialism breaks all the laws of economics because it barely understands man's flaws and talents.
What do I know? I'm going to buy cereal now. I think the prices here are ok - 3% inlfation. Then again, inflation is very much in the eye of the beholder and intensely personal.
40 - Dave Nalle
Dave Nalle is the Fox Guarding the Henhouse. Now he tells us--assures us, no less--that there are none of HIS CLONES on the thread.
No, it's a given that I have no clones on the thread. What I was assuring people was that YOU and others have no obvious clones on the thread.
The guy from Caracas is an escualido
As I understand the term, what you're engaging in here is pure bigotry. The term has no meaning that is descriptive. It is solely derogatory and used as an insult to anyone who doesn't swallow Chavez' dogma hook line and sinker.
Dave
41 - moonraven
It is NOT a given, Vox Populi, that you have no clones on this thread!
You are the ONLY one, in fact, who has been caught with his pants down--and without the balls to own up to it and apologize!
Escaulidos are the "thin ones"--fashionistas estilo venezolano who follow the US trends and squeak and squeal at the possibility that socialism might mean that they can't say "Dáme dos" when shopping in Miami every weekend.
42 - Emerson
FIRST OF ALL CHAVEZ DOES NOT HATE THE US!!!
CHAVEZ HATES THE WORLD HATED BUSH ADMINISTRATION. PERIOD!!!
43 - Clavos
So now, to all his other "achievements" as Venezuelan President, Chavez can add the emergence of Venezuela as a major cocaine transshipment point between Colombia and the USA.
According to a report issued by the Joint Interagency Task Force-South recently, thanks to USA's ongoing aid to Colombia in fighting drug trafficking, the Colombian traffickers have shifted their transport operations to Venezuela, where, since 2005, they have found a "permissive environment" for their flights.
Says an article published today in The Miami Herald, regarding the government report:
The report blames the surge on the ''permissive environment'' in Venezuela, ruled by U.S.-bashing President Hugo Chávez. Under Chávez, Venezuela has banned U.S. anti-drug patrol aircraft from its airspace, has not extradited any suspected traffickers to the United States, and stopped working with the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration -- accusing it of spying.
...James O'Gara, the White House's deputy drug czar, said Chávez had been working aggressively with U.S. law enforcement until two years ago -- when his country's borders opened up to the Colombian traffickers. Traffickers are now ''doing it with no opposition,'' he added.
The depth of the problem is revealed in the report by the Joint Interagency Task Force-South in Key West, which uses radar and other high-tech gear to track suspected drug shipments. The Miami Herald obtained the key parts of the report and confirmed its authenticity with other U.S. officials.
...The task force report describes the surge in Venezuela-to-Hispaniola traffic this way: ``Colombian cocaine is being prepositioned in VE [Venezuela] where a permissive environment exists that is allowing smuggling aircraft to depart/return with impunity. Smugglers are targeting Hispaniola [because of the] lack of enforcement and corruption.''
The recent State Department report said Venezuela is now a transit point for some 200 metric tons a year of Colombian cocaine. That's about one-quarter of Colombia's total estimated cocaine production. Washington ''de-certified'' Venezuela as an ally in the war on drugs in 2005.
Apparently the Chavista government is developing a hedge against the inevitability of a future loss in oil revenue...
44 - S.T.M
But at least they're all racing around at 100 miles an hour saying, "shit, let's have another line".
45 - moonraven
Right. The US is just pissed off because Chavez threw the DEA jokers out on their ass last year--because not only were they trafficking the cocaine they supposedly were there to intercept, they were also spying.
Just sour grapes. The DEA wanted to be the high rollers (pun intended) of cocaine like the CIA are the high rollers of heroin thanks to the invasion of Afghanistan.
46 - Mr. Econotarian
I don't think one can really fault the use of oil revenues for truly poverty-fighting measures such as education.
However in the process of doing some good things, Chavez is also breaking the ability of Venezuela to have a functioning economy when the oil revenues end. Already he has made foreign investors skiddish about investing there, and his price controls are leading to shortages.
The inflation is pretty severe, compared with Chile's for example. Chile now has the highest GDP per capita in Latin America, and an inflation rate of just 2.1%. Chile has reduced poverty down to 18% from near 40% 20 years ago. Chile is experiencing stable GDP growth of 4%-5% for several years without high inflation.
Time will tell whether the Chilean way or the Venezuelan way will be right way for a Latin American country to grow.
47 - Clavos
Mr. E:
I don't think one can really fault the use of oil revenues for truly poverty-fighting measures such as education.
Nor do I.
My objections to him are the freedom-limiting, anti-democratic measures he's taken, and as you point out, the utterly gross mishandling of Venezuela's economy.
He talks a good show, but thus far has delivered little, except for himself.
48 - Julia
Interesting debate indeed, the one that has been develop throughout this page. I got only a very few things to add. Im venezuelan, it is quite clear that I live in a different Venezuela of the ones who has write in this page supporting the goverment. I go to the supermarket, with the same ammount of money, but I can buy less than before, and sometimes I can't buy a thing. Shortage of meat one day, shortage of chicken the next, shortage of sugar or black beens. Products you need and you cannot find.
And I'm still not talking about the lack of many other things: freedom, life standards. One under Chavez live under uncertainly and fear. Im sorry for the venezuelans who cannot notice this, who can be easily fooled for the goverment version, who believes on every word that Chavez says. Im sorry for them, because we all are suffering the consecuences of the revolution. But when they finally realize of the madness of this regime, I dont know how they are going to manage with their conscience. They will be like some germans saying: "Who? Me? I never supported Hittler".
Many had quote sources here, I wont do it. The only source I can be related its to my blog, so any opinions against my stance, you know where to go.
PS: Excuses for my poor english.
49 - Clavos
Su inglés es bien claro, Julia.
Gracias por su participación y por compartir sus experiencias actuales en el Venezuela de hoy.
For our American friends:
Your English is quite clear, Julia.
Thanks for your participation and for sharing your experiences in today's Venezuela.
I hope you will tell us more about what life is like in contemporary Venezuela.
Clavos
50 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
I took the trouble to check the blogsite listed in comment #48. The writer appears to be a native Venezuelan living in Caracas. She is not poor - she has the money to travel to Mexico. But she is not rich either, and her comments support those contentions of Clavos, the author of this article, as well of the fellow writing under the screen name "soontobeexpat"..
It does not appear that Venezuela is a democracy any longer, except in the notional sense. There may be more justice for some people (I have enough sense not to comment on something I do not know), and the sitting president, Chavez, does appear to have a level of popular support, as evidenced by the details of the entry in Julia's blog on the flag of the country, and its celebration of "Flag Day."
I suspect we are seeing in Venezuela much what happened in Cuba in 1958, only in slow-motion. The difference is that we know for sure that the predecessor to Fidel Castro, Battista, was a dictator. I do not know that Chavez' predecessor was a dictator.
51 - Clavos
Ruvy,
You're dead on in your comparison of the Bolivarian Revolution with Castro's; I actually was in Cuba for most of 1958 (I was a teenager at the time), and there are strong similarities. And, of course, Castro is Chavez' mentor.
Chavez' revolution is in "slow-motion" (good description) because, as julia points out in her blog, he is clever enough to be making his changes slowly, so as not to stir up the opposition unduly.
52 - Les Slater
U.S. accuses many of drug related crimes. The truth is however that there is ample evidense that the CIA and U.S. military have been major contributors in drug shipment and selling.
The police in the U.S. are in the drug business up to their ears. Many banks have substantial dealings in drug money. There are significant businesses that are there only for money laundering.
53 - Les Slater
"I actually was in Cuba for most of 1958 ...., and there are strong similarities."
There are very few similarities between 1958 Cuba and present Venezuela. In '58 rebels were fighting in the hills. The revolution in Cuba took power by force with the active participation of much of the population.
To get an idea of what was happening in 1958, one should read 'Episodes of the Cuban Revolutionary War, 1956-58'. To get an idea of what was happening after 1959 you should read the 'First and Second Declarations of Havana'. You will not see much similarity of anything going on in Venezuela now.
54 - Clavos
Les wrote:
In '58 rebels were fighting in the hills.
True. In fact, I was in Baracoa (port city in eastern Cuba's Guantanamo province) while it was under siege by Castro's guerrillas, and witnessed daily firefights in the jungles at the far end of Baracoa Bay.
The revolution in Cuba took power by force with the active participation of much of the population.
Partially true. Castro's Revolution was by force, but the myth that much of the population participated was propaganda perpetuated by the Castro regime.
We (my family and I) were there for much of 1958, which as you know, was the final year of the fighting; Castro took La Habana on January 1, 1959. We met many people during our travels throughout the island; both pro- and anti-Castro.
The revolutionaries we met were very open and informative about their partisanship, but our experience was that, while some of the general population were sympathetic, most were afraid of fidel and his band of Merry Men and what they portended. Among the sympathizers, many feared reprisals from the SIM (Batista's secret police) and did not actively participate in the revolution.
The similarities I spoke of were in the goals of both revolutions. That's not a coincidence, since Fidel is clearly Chavez' mentor and padrino.
You're right in that the methodology is different; Castro should have learned something about that by now.
C'mon Les: A book by Che and another by prominent SWP member Mary-Alice Waters can hardly be considered to be non-partisan, truthful accounts of Fidel's adventures!
55 - Clavos
Les wrote:
You will not see much similarity of anything going on in Venezuela now.
I disagree. Expropriation of private property, muzzling of opposition press, and intimidation of opposition voters and candidates, as well as curtailment of civil liberties, are several obvious similarities that come readily to mind.
56 - Les Slater
Neither book was or is written by Mary-Alice Waters.
The 'First and Second Declarations of Havana' were two speeches that Fidel gave to the populations at a couple critical junctures of the Cuban Revolution.
The other, 'Episodes of the Cuban Revolutionary War...' by Che is just Che's account of his experience. There is not any dispute that the events he described can be corrilated to well-documented history of the Cuban Revolution.
Do you have any basis to dispute Che's account?
57 - Clavos
Do you have any basis to dispute Che's account?
No, just his POV, which, of course infuses the writing. All depends on whether you want to ascribe any authority to the writings of an assassin and mass murderer.
The 'First and Second Declarations of Havana' were two speeches that Fidel gave to the populations at a couple critical junctures of the Cuban Revolution.
And edited by Waters. In any case, that doesn't disqualify (in fact it reinforces) my point about lack of neutrality.
58 - troll
imo the main similarity is that both revolutions were/are attempts to the reject the $tatus quo and improve conditions for the have nots
Clavos - I appreciate your critique of Chavez but
given that things change what kind of a kick in the pants would you prefer Venezuelans experience - ?
iyo would a Dictatorship from the right be preferable with the usual motif of deaths squads and disappearances quieting the have nots while resources are directed to a growing 'middle class' - ?
how can a society direct resources to its have nots without impacting privilege - ?
59 - Clavos
troll writes:
imo the main similarity is that both revolutions were/are attempts to the reject the $tatus quo and improve conditions for the have nots
True. No argument from me.
iyo would a Dictatorship from the right be preferable with the usual motif of deaths squads and disappearances quieting the have nots while resources are directed to a growing 'middle class' - ?
IMO, NO "dictatorship" is a good thing. Growing a middle class IS, (again, IMO) a good thing. One of the principal economic strengths of the USA, is its large and comparatively (with most of the rest of the world) middle class.
I don't buy all the left wing propaganda about the horrors of modern capitalism. There are excesses, which should be corrected, but by and large I see in the USA and the other major developed, capitalistic nations, a better life for a much greater proportion of their populaces, as compared with historical societies as well as contemporary ones that are less developed.
A healthy economy can be achieved without "disappearances" or curtailment of civil liberties inherent in dictatorships by encouraging, not discouraging, capital investment, rather than simply robbing peter to pay Paul. Your idea presupposes that an economy is a zero sum entity; history proves that's not true.
how can a society direct resources to its have nots without impacting privilege - ?
By allowing "privilege" to improve themselves while improving the society at large. See also above.
As I look at history, I don't see socialistic societies which have improved the lot of their citizens across the board to the extent that the well-run capitalist ones have. Mostly, i see experiments in socialism which have failed abjectly: the Soviet Union and North Korea, e.g.
The contemporary Scandinavian countries have done a pretty good job with their socialism, but even they are much more capitalistic than socialistic.
China is rapidly improving the lot of its people by finally beginning to turn its economy toward capitalism.
60 - Les Slater
"And edited by Waters."
She is indeed the editor of the book, 'First and Second ...' but she did not edit the actual First and Second Declarations that are in the book. Mary-Alice wrote the introduction explaining why Pathfinder was publishing a new combined edition at this time. Many photographs and a timeline were included to put those two Cuban documents in a historical perspective for the modern reader.
61 - troll
Clavos - your plan is fine as long as the haves can convince the have nots to accept their poverty while waiting for the trickle down effect
there has been investment capital in Venezuela for quite some time with no appreciable improvement for so many that it is clear that investment and growth alone won't do the trick...is it a surprise that time's up for such utopian schemes - ?
(I won't get into the Capitalism vrs Socialism debate as imo these two isms are not in conflict in this age of government 'regulated and protected' corporate capitalism...Socialism is way too far to the right for me
and I don't accept your charge that my idea rests on an assumption of a zero sum game...but consider - a dingy anchored too firmly to the bottom can be sucked under and out of sight and mind in that rising tide)
62 - Julia
Ruvy in Jerusalem" (comment # 50) has pointed in a very objective way what I wanted to tell about whats happening in my country. What this comment says about "it appears", it is true (although, i must say that spounsours payed that trip to Mexico, i couldnt ever possible afford it given the current circunstances). Im middle class, "poor" middle class now, like many, and this is perhaps the class that Chavez focus so hard to destroy for obvious reasons. About the similarities among venezuelan "revolution" and cuban revolution; well, I was born way after 1958 but i have read enough to know that theres definitly some strong differences: Venezuela knew a democracy that Cuba has never experience. And Chavez was elected by constitution, Castro not at first at least. Chavez is a product of the democracy, but he is destroying the system that made him a president and its right there where similarities starts, like all dictatorship (and venezuela is living in a dictatorship sorta, I would never accept for this to be called a democracy) has. Besides that, we have many cultural similarities with Cuba, witch makes this whole process quite dramatic. What its really important in this matter its this: if you find any similarity, on the spirit and ways to do things, between Cuba and Venezuela, Fidel and Hugo, no matter how tiny it is, take it as you should take it: as a warning. And dont worry about some details and historic facts that wont match,because at the end, every society has a different background, right?
PS: Excuses again for my english. And thanks for reading my blog with an open mind.
63 - Clavos
troll,
there has been investment capital in Venezuela for quite some time with no appreciable improvement for so many...
True, but that's more a result of all the graft and corruption rampant in the country , as it is in most LatAm countries. This was the chief reason Chavez was able to get himself elected on promises of cleaning it all up and providing for the have-nots.
Unfortunately, according to numerous reports from Venezuela, including those of julia, above, in her blog, the clean up hasn't happened yet, and the have nots still don't have...
is it a surprise that time's up for such utopian schemes - ?
IMO, Chavez' "Bolivarian Republic" is the truly utopian scheme, exacerbated by Chavez' failure to consider the basics of macroeconomics and human psychology in his somewhat grandiose and utopian plans.
The proof that he doesn't consider them lies in the current chaotic condition of the Venezuelan economy; a situation that is all the worse because Chavez (unlike Castro) controls enormous petro-wealth and, after nine years, he still isn't providing for the have-nots but he has destroyed democracy and the country's economy in the process.
and I don't accept your charge that my idea rests on an assumption of a zero sum game
When you ask:
how can a society direct resources to its have nots without impacting privilege - ?
Your question implicitly assumes that there is a finite amount of resources which cannot be made larger, and therefore one group must give up resources for another to acquire them.
I see capitalist systems (in particular the USA's) disproving that idea repeatedly throughout modern history. And, in the particular instance of Venezuela, with the aforementioned enormous wealth at Chavez' disposal, it's clearly not necessary to take from one group to give to another.
No, what Chavez is doing has less to do with providing for the have-nots than it does with his personal accumulation of power and control.
64 - troll
Clavos says - *Your question implicitly assumes that there is a finite amount of resources which cannot be made larger, and therefore one group must give up resources for another to acquire them.*
nope - in a growing economy rationalized by maximizing profit ('greed is good') the haves are privileged (and even required) to keep as much of the increase to themselves as they can without collapsing consumption...growth does not imply or necessitate equitable distribution
political action (unions - syndicates etc) is what has driven the history of distribution and the growth of the consumer base (read middle class) in the US...not the economic nor the benevolent social behavior of owners
65 - Clavos
troll:
political action (unions - syndicates etc) is what has driven the history of distribution and the growth of the consumer base (read middle class) in the US...not the economic nor the benevolent social behavior of owners
I'll grant you most of that 'graph. Though there have been notable exceptions among the capitalists (Henry Ford, for one), historically there has been a need for other "equalizers", such as trade unions (up to the point they, too, inevitably begin to act in the best interests of their leadership, to the detriment of the rank-and-file).
But, not a single non-capitalist system in history has provided enough resources to be distributed equitably. You can have all the political actions in the world, but someone has to make the money first.
Politicians and the governments they work for are economic parasites; they produce nothing but regulation (restriction), and harassment, and in extreme cases, oppression-not resources.
66 - troll
Clavos - I've got to go snatch up some resources...I'll get back to ya later
67 - troll
any amount can be equitably distributed or not -
--
laborers make value - owners concentrate it
and this act of concentrating wealth is necessary work...worth at least $25/hour imo
--
we agree about professional pols and governments
68 - susu
Troll:
What exactly do you think "owners" do with their money read profit? They certainly do not stuff it under their bed. They either:
Buy things
Invest in other projects
Both of these activities funnel the money back into the economy for the benefit of all participants. I for one have never worked for a "poor" person.
Wealth is created by labor i.e. taking something worth less and creating something worth more. The easiest example of this is a lump of iron ore turned into a wheel for a car. This could even be an idea for a completely new thing.
The real issue with socialism and communism etc is that they completely mis-understand human nature. People do by nature what is in their own best interest not is the best interest of some ethereal collective. What capitalism does is force people to look out for other people’s interests. How it accomplishes this is a very simple concept. If a business / person does not produce or serve the interests of their customers they can and will be replaced by a competitor.
The best thing governments can do is get out of the way and allow people and businesses to compete openly with each other. Government controlled monopolies or oligopolies are inefficient at best and can invite graft and corruption at worst.
69 - troll
susu - I agree that government would do best by getting out of the way so that the process of class conflict could run its course
but I disagree with your view of human nature as a static 'given' - imo change is basic to the nature of all things
and in many ways we already understand that positive results are achieved by considering what is best for 'me' and for 'you' at the same time
no need to let Smith's 'invisible hand' stagnate and morph into Marx's 'dead hand of the past'