What is it that China doesn't want to tell us?
Chinese ambassador to the United Nations Office at Geneva Sha Zukang told a reporter yesterday that "It's better for the U.S. to shut up [about Chinese military spending]."…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Bill
Wow! Do we have to right to monitor and control every dam country in the world?
27 - Michael
Quiet right!
The U.S. needs to shutup about the military spending of others, until they get their own spending under control.
Borrow borrow borrow, and spend spend spend,
on military power... that's "the american way"!
It needs to stop.
28 - JohnA
OK, It's easy guys, and we have to understand it!!!
Two things:
First: The more economic interdependence there is on two countries, the less likely they are to engage in any sort of conflict. Interdependence is the key though, because I think there need to be mutual benefits to maintaining the peace. This is true. (from opinion #2)
We all know that.
Second: It is inappropriate for us to impose restrictions on others that we do not follow ourselves! (opinion#23)
This second part is the one that goes against the first one (there's no balance), and it is completelly our fault!
So guess what...! Third: Chinese answer to US as a result.... "Shut up" ( I don't like it, but I understand it.)
Don't sweat...be happy.
29 - T R Jackobs
It is not a threat but just a statement of facts. What can any one including the US do about whatever the Chinese are doing? Not knowing about it is good for American so that they can sleep well until china polietly requests them to leave Tiwan and let it become a province of china. If Americans have learnt anything from Vietnam the would not dare to do or even say anything against China.
30 - the cob
If unbridled, but not blind, patriotism makes you ill, you might wish to read this in the bathroom. The nation in which I have the most interest is mine, the United States. I have visited 24 other countries and find that their peoples are pretty much like us. They want shelter, food, clothing, time for some pleasure now and then. The root cause of international distrust lies at the clay feet of political leaders, not the general populace. Leaders lusting for political power, no matter the cost.
I would like our problems solved before we "solve" those of other nations. We've had our Revoultionay War, we've had our Civil War; we should allow other countries to find their own way as we did, brutal as it may have been.
When our congressional members posture and proudly state that we have a responsibility to introduce our way of life into other nations I cringe. What would our reaction be if some UN nation decided we were oppressed and wished to rescue us?
No, isolationism is not the answer, but international agreements should be fair and equal. One example: The so-called free trade agreement with Mexico. In 1994 we had a 1.3 billion dollar trade surplus with that nation. In 2004 it was a 45 billion dollar trade deficit. Good for them, tragic for us.
Despite the rosy pronouncements from congress, we are no longer the richest nation in the world and as more and more corporations ship jobs abroad thus steadily decreasing our production capacity, all most nations need do is to be patient. It's only a matter of time before we economically implode.
So it is that I'm not overly concerned about what other countries say about us, I am much more concerned what we are saying about ourselves, as though having once been the richest and most powerful nation on earth was some sort of crime.
Well, if you can't match someone's achievement, I guess all you can do is to try to tear it down to your own inadequate level.
If you've read that whole sermon...thanks!
31 - chancelucky
Actually, I don't think economic interdependence prevents wars, it's actually often the cause of wars.
The various nations of Europe certainly traded extensively with one another before the EU....the American Civil War the two sides certainly had plenty of economic exchange and considerable familiarity. The American revolution was about excessive ties to England at least in part and the inability of the colonists to determine how things were traded, who they traded with, etc.
I haven't and can't do the analysis but it probably has more to do with the balance of power within those economic relationships. Is it benefitting both parties, etc.
I do think cultural respect and exchange do make something of a difference, but that one isn't foolproof either.
32 - Bryan
chancelucky, you're right in that it can't all be reduced to interdependence. I think one of the key parts of my original statement was that there had to be mutual, balanced benefits, which perhaps I didn't stress quite enough. The former colonial nations (any of them, really) functioned under a sort of economic interdependence which crippled the colonies. Fair trade, not just free trade, is important.
33 - gonzo marx
point of Order!
if you want to understand what China is doing... might i suggest "the Art of War" by Sun Tzu
realize that they are applying it to economics as well as military stratagems
Excelsior?
34 - Bryan
Here's a good quote from The Art of War relevant to the situation, Gonzo:
if [the enemy] has no alliances, the problem is minor and the enemy's position weak.
Bad diplomacy is bad for the nation.
I'm actually not sure which side of the argument you're supporting though. There's a lot in there that could go either way...
35 - arthur
Maybe it's not a question of sides, Brian. Maybe we have to somehow learn to be on the side of the people and not the political organizations from any country.
36 - Bryan
Uhh, Arthur, I'm pretty sure there are two clear sides here: (1) the Chinese ambassador shouldn't have said what he did or (2) he should have. I'm not taking sides with the government or the people, but rather whether or not this PARTICULAR INCIDENT warrants cheers or jeers.
Also, I know "y" and "i" are relatively close together on the keyboard, but please learn to differentiate.
37 - gonzo marx
not sure where i am on it Bryan...
how about this..
i KNOW the chinese are students of Sun Tzu
i think that very few in the Administration are familiar with the work, much less scholars of the principles involved... and as an Entity, it appears the Adminstration is completely clueless that others may be using it as a playbook
possibly because the political agent (Rove) is determining policy from the Machiavelli playbook instead
but i digress
dew neh loh moh
Excelsior?
38 - Bryan
Excellent, sir. I tip my (imaginary) hat to you.
39 - Will
Although it is unlikely Ambassador Sha is very familiar with American slang, "shut up" is very appropriate if it is interpreted that way because:
1) It never ceases to amaze me that US politicans will whine about Chinese defense spending when the US spends more than the REST OF THE ENTIRE WORLD put together. Props to JW Harper (#10)
TS (#11) should remember, however, that the yuan has much more buying power within China than it does elsewhere. So that $30B figure is grossly understated.
2) The US has, intentionally or not, had a might makes right foreign policy since 9/11. China has the desire & the financial means to "bulk up" its military to the point where it will be a "player" in regions distant from its own borders - by the rules that we have set.
3) Another thing that never ceases to amaze me is that US politicans will describe China as a military threat while knowing full well that the Chinese economy depends on exports to us.
40 - Emanon
China being intelligent is tring to build it's econmy
so it is as capable as the us to defend or dictate as
we do. It will not be foolish enough to start a massive conflict unless it is sure of the outcome, it will continue to grow in strenth through trade with us and anyone else who will help it gain enough power
to dictate it's own future as it see fit. the only downside is if it continues to sleep with us dogs it will get fleas and like Japan it's poeple will become more americanized and closer to global culturalization
41 - arthur
Alas, I am dust. Sorry to have offended you with the misspelling of your name Bryan. It wasn’t a typo, it was an artifact from being raised in a standardized generation. Sometimes when there are competing voices for my attention, I miss a nuance here and there.
My comment was not meant to suggest that there is no side, but rather there are other sides that are equally important. While our ambassadors may think they represent their people, we may think differently. John R. Bolton, case in point. He may have the position, but he doesn’t share often my heart in a way I would desire it to be shared.
I sense a growing disapproval with the diplomatic corps of other countries who seem to be speaking more harshly to ours. I wonder if we have violated the mores of acceptable behavior once too often. What goes around often comes around. Perhaps they believe that our actions have warranted their own and like a child we are being publicly chided. The Russians did it as well just a short time ago. Are we wearing out our welcome?
I am an educator, the first thing I was taught to do when I see misbehavior is to ask myself what am I doing that is precipitating this behavior.
42 - David
US always critize everybody for every thing. China has no reason at all to threaten anyone. The only reasons I can think of this "shut up" remark is because US is not justified to critized on China's defense spending when the US spends 100 times amount of money more than China. China might see US more as a threat than the US sees China. Simple math, US has 30000+ nuke warheads, China has less than 500. Even if you said China plans to use those, there is zero justification when US is the country that invades others. Also, I'm very sick of the US propaganda lately involving every single thing that comes out of China. Take the tibet railway for example, China did not create the railway just for money's sake and destroy the environment. I didn't know that China built the world's first railway, this sickens me. US is the LARGEST consumer of oil, produces the MOST garbage in the world and spends the MOST money on military. AND THEY FEEL THEY ARE QUALIFIED to critic China? HAVE YOU EVER BEEN IN CHINA? PEOPLE LIVE IN PEACE FOR GODS SAKE, CNN and other US propaganda constantly feed their people with half truths to grow HATE on China. The purpose to go give a negative image to China before they have a chance to show its true self in Beijing 2008.
43 - David
Americanization is also key to this whole US domination thing. Thanks to Hollywood, American values are spread internationally (except countries that ban them) and brainwash people's minds. If you associate theories from the article at the top of this screen, you can say that is ALSO a strategic military tool. Especially with strong words like FREEDOM accompanied with the AMERICAN FLAG showing in almost every subliminal message driven scenes. Many people living outside of US do not see the bad side of ACTUALLY living in the US. They don't know that there are tons of poor neighborhood and ugly places. For example, Japanese people are so brainbashed by American media that they DREAM of traveling to New York City or spend a night with a Tom Cruise. These are ALL scripted in a way that subtly enough even the most typical of americans are blinded from. Living the American Dream they say, a simple sentence to cause millions of people trying to "escape" their country to seek for that dream.
Thankfully, as an immigrant, I got "opened" up to see the truth from a friend of mine. I was also blinded once and believe only a white guy can be a super-hero. Just watch any movies involving chinese people for contextual's sake (even only if they are cameos). Women are sex objects and chinese men are linked to "short","nerdy", etc...all those qualities that would turn off a woman. Is that the truth just because Hollywood or CNN decides it is?
I believe that the media is SO controlled in the US that one can only see the truth if they visited the country in conflict with their OWN eyes and judgements.
44 - Jethro
"The Chinese Ambassador to the United Nations Office at Geneva Sha Zukang". Bryan, that in the scheme of things Chinese, is about as important as the guy that sweeps up the dog-poop around the Imperial Palace in Peking. On second thought the poop sweeper is more important.
A slight exaggeration, perhaps, but said so to make a point.
What is funny or thought provoking to me is your reaction to it and the comments it has elicited here.
But I digress...
45 - Jethro
David. Thank You for your un-informed, mostly off-topic, rant.#42 and #43.
46 - Jethro
Bryan, I find it interesting and refreshing that a ‘minor functionary’ nay ‘apparatchik', can be so John Bolton ‘esque’!.
What candor! Give this guy some free reign.
Do you really think he should be ‘reprimanded’ by his superiors? That would be sooo American! What Liberals usually ‘demand’ every time some government official says something off-the-cuff.
Do we need this type of ‘censorship’?
And Bryan do you really care how China ‘looks’ or ‘misrepresents’ itself?
Please, let’s have a good look at China, warts and all. That would be like us, an ‘open society’. Good,yes?
Same goes for every repressed society, North Korea, Venezuela, just to name a few.
47 - Jethro
Bryan, you didn’t mean ‘reprimand’ in the Chinese Communist way! Recall them for ‘consultation’ then take them out back and shoot them in the back of the head?
48 - Jethro
Bryan, now if you had expressed a desire for the diplomats explanation of his comments... Well, a little explanation would help, since WE Americans want everything ‘explained’ !
Explained so that WE can ‘discuss’ ‘it’ in a more informed manner.
Discuss and ‘understand’,
and once WE have been able to discuss and understand,
then to ‘change’ , ‘alter’ , ‘mitigate’ and/or ‘justify’ such comments in the ‘context’ of ‘our thinking / morality / agenda’.
49 - Jethro
Is it not elitist to comment? Must be some sort of American ‘trait’ (see David, Arthur et.al.,). I imagine that in China, Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, Saudi Arabia or North Korea you could get executed for commenting on said comment. I meant ‘reprimanded’.
50 - Jethro
Understanding the above, let us now ‘pretend’ that what we ‘discuss’ here ‘matters’.
51 - Jethro
A lot of farting into the wind if you ask me. ‘Important’ farting, nonetheless. So let us commence to farting.
52 - Jason
Don't get upset with the Ambassador's remark. China is merely worried that once the world knows how much it spends on military spending, the Western powers, in particular, will stop it from developing enough strength that is essential to protect itself from being attacked and bullied by foreign powers in future. (This happened in the first half of the 20th century.) The Chinese are interested in using sufficient military strength to prevent a repetition of the humuliating invasions in the last century. Now, China is using its military build-up to ensure that its economic strength and cultural influence will continue to increase globally. The best way to influence China and at the same time benefit the people in the republic is to love the Chinese genuinely and preach the gospel of Christ to millions of people there.
53 - Jethro
Marc in #13 writes, “China’s leaders are exhibiting something that Americans should learn: the virtue of patience and a long-term strategy. America, these days, is all about the quick fix...”
Patience and long-term strategy? What is that Marc? Can it be applied here in America?
Are you saying that we should become a totalitarian country like China? Is it not impossible here, unless you have one-party rule continuously for a number of like-minded administrations, for a policy or long-term strategy to be implemented? You were kidding! Right?
54 - dave
while i agree that the way the message was delivered was somewhat "tactless", it does not take away from the fact that we (US) should hold our cards closer to our chest.
It has been common practice for us to reveal what other governments are spending on their defense/military. while it is okay to reveal some non-classified information about weapon systems/capabilities, keeping the enemy guessing is always a great strategy.
Or maybe this is just a mind game and a suttle way to re-affirm our position as world leader!!!
55 - Dave Nalle
I am an educator, the first thing I was taught to do when I see misbehavior is to ask myself what am I doing that is precipitating this behavior.
What a perfect indictment of the system by which we educate our educators that you should have been taught this and that you express yourself so ineptly.
Dave
56 - Dave Nalle
Dave, 'outing' the Chinese on their military spending is entirely appropriate. Given that they are involved in all sorts of little military adventures directly or through surrogates in various parts of the world, repressing their own ethnic and religious minorities and constantly blustering about Taiwan and Mongolia and Tibet, putting them on an even footing with the US where such spending is public information, seems like the least we can do for or to them.
Dave
57 - Jethro
Marc in #13 also wrote, “With all due respect to other posters here, don't you think that both Iraq and Lebanon are object lessons on the hubris of relying solely on technological superiority in military operations?”
Hubris " exaggerated pride or self-confidence often resulting in retribution.
On the contrary Marc, I don’t think hubris is the correct term to use, since pride did not enter into the equation, ‘expediency’ yes, pride? I don’t think so.
Self"confidence? If self-confidence had entered into the equation then we would have seen ‘carpet bombing’ instead of these ‘surgical strikes’ to limit the ancillary damage. And what has this accomplished? The war continues, the casualties increase, the will to continue the good-fight wanes. I agree, if you mean to say that we are using the wrong tactics. I think that if you cut off the ‘head’ of this ‘serpent’ the serpent (insurgency / terrorism / attacks-on-western civilization) will die. You have to ask yourself “what is the problem”,"where is the head of the serpent", once you have answered that you can come up with a solution! Everything else is futile. Ergo, your “patience and long-term strategy” come into play.
58 - Jethro
#55 Agree...So P.C. #56 Agree...'outing'
As re: #56 Can conformity to ethical behavior be imposed on a rigidly self-interested-centered paradigm such as Red China?
59 - Howard
A muscular rich high school student also a bully work out in a Gym everyday find out his skinny classmate is also working out twice a week. The first word pump out the bully's mouth is Wwwwwhat?
60 - Jethro
I take it that the 'skinny' classmate is also 'rich' and is also a 'bully'... because both these adjectives fit China to a tee.
Your anal ogy fails if applied to America.
Rich if you count the ‘peoples’ willingness to support ‘representative’ sponsored programs.
In that sense ‘rich’ is inappropriate since Our Government cannot spend money like a ‘drunken sailor’ or like Red China for that matter!
There is a limit to our largesse.
Bullies don’t spend massive amounts of their own money or sacrifice their blood to achieve their simple goals.
Good Samaritan would much better sum up our 'character' as a country " thank you very much!
61 - Chinese
US should "SHUT UP", and "FUCK OFF" China.
Why you are keeping killing other countries' people EVERY SINGLE DAY, and spending more than half of the whole world military spending, but asking China to spend less on military? It is the same as saying "Hey Chinese, don't protect yourself, so I can kill you guys a day as I choose".
I told you a story: When Birtish invaded China 120 years or so ago,in a small scale war, more than 600 Chinese soliders were killed , but only 2 British soliders were slightly injured. The reason is Bristish were using guns, but Chinese were using knifes.
This is what American wants: You can't spend money on protecting yourself, so I can kill you as I wish.
Americans, you are brainwashed by your government, CNN etc rabbish media. WAKE UP!!!!
Don't tell me I am brainwashed by Chinese Communist Party. I hate them, but I think spending more money on defence is the only right thing they are doing!
62 - Jethro
Chinee, my friend. Old Proverb says "tail does not wag Dog"!
63 - Jethro
Chinee, my friend, why does the RedChinese government harvest body parts from its hundreds of thousands of political prisoners?
By the way, how successful is the RedChinese pogrom of ‘One Child’ per family?
By the way has your munificent RedChinese government figured out a way for Males to conceive children?
By the way in the last ‘unplanned’ famine in China, how many Chinese people were sacrificed so that Chairman Who, Chairman Mao or their successors could buy more weapons?
And do you get egg-roll with that order?
64 - Jethro
So Chinee, my friend, if I’m wrong about Red China... Please point out to me their most recent act of Charity. Show me where their actions can be construed to be that of a ‘Good Samaritan’!
I would suggest to you my friend, that a Chinese has more to fear from Chairman Who and his goons than from any non-existent foreign threat! Or is that a concept too difficult to grasp? Can I get Won-Ton soup instead of the egg-rolls?
65 - Jethro
Philip, your comment “I prefer to think that our high volume of trade is the best road to ongoing peace with them…”
Is that the price you would be willing to pay for ‘peace’ ?
RedChina’s feeble/futile attempt at masquerading as a capitalistic hegemony mired in communistic dogma will Fail. Something has got to give. Will Capitalism or Communism survive or will some other form of subjugation come out of this illicit relationship? Your guess is as good as mine.
Trade with US is a street that has alleys along the way. RedChina cannot subvert the subcontinent with its surrogate North Korea and not expect some form of retaliation.
In this respect I suggest that the Dog stop wagging its Tail!
66 - David
Jethroyass, Thank You for your un-informed, mostly off-topic, rant.#62,#63 and #64.
67 - Chinese
Jethro, don't want to argue with you, just one word: Stupid or naive.
68 - Zet
What is most interesting to me about the statement is that it seems to express the sentiments of the ENTIRE WORLD (our allies included).
Our ignorance as a voting populous has actually resulted in a severly deminished status for our country (rightfully so). We vote on emotion. We are clueless about anything outside of what evokes media images (John Wayne, Rambo, good guys vs. bad guys, etc.) Our politicians know this so they tell us what we want to hear and commit havoc around the planet IN OUR NAME and tell us that we are generous liberators.
Unfortunately for us, the rest of the world READS. They are well informed.
China is in a situation right now to tell us to "shut up". We have lost our status. Everyone thinks that we are a bunch of bumbling idiots (thanks to our fearless leader). China is now the second largest holder of U.S. debt, with more than $260 billion in U.S. Treasury securities.... Who do we think we are?
We do need to "shut up" and fix the mess that we are in. We must elect people who are deserving of the great responsibility of leadership and governance. We must abandon the paralysing and numbing narcisim and obsession with patriotic imagery understanding that a great American is not one with a flag in his hand and a gaping hole between his ears. A great American is one who alert, is well read, who understands his world and takes his roll as a voter seriously.
69 - Jethro
#66 lame #67 lame er #68 lame assed
70 - Zet
While I hope this not to be the case, my biggest fear is that this statment may be a marker of the begining of the end.
Its said that to everything there is a season. I am worried that in the past six years that we have made such a joke of America that we will not ever be able to regain the position of leader that we once held.
Right now we are preoccupied with gays, "intelligent design", prayer in schools, if Bush swaggers or walks, American Idol and Desperate Housewives... Is Rome sleeping? Since Bush took office in 2001 America's trade deficit with China has ballooned to $200 billion, the largest bilateral trade deficit in American history. Does the Empror have clothes? While we hole allegance to our political parties, Rush and O'Rielly, the wealthy get wealthier and soldiers and over 200,000 innocent Iraqies die (Saddam is making a mockery of the court proceedings and Asama is producing more videos than P-Diddy).
Are we leadership material? Does the world need to tell us to 'shut up" and sit down somewhere?
I heard this story on NPR on Thursday. Why wasn't it plastered all over the networks and cable news outlets? Scary.
71 - Jethro
David, Chinee and Zet, since you are all so fond of being told off! I won't disappoint you!
Do you prefer the ‘vanilla’ version...Shut Up! Or the more dressed up version...Know You Role and Shut Your Mouth!
72 - Jethro
Zet: "Are we leadership material".
Why yes "we" are Zet. For starters, there are over 150,000 Leaders in Iraq and Afghanistan as we speak!
73 - Zet
Jethro: I wont get into a lot with you mainly because we don't speak the same language. But I will say that your comments depict exacty what is freightening about Americans. The entire world thinks we are dumb. You don't know it but your statements are EXTREMELY base. I realise that I wont be able to argue with you simply because you don't have a grasp of what I speak of and you will spit back that mind numbing "talk radio" speak which weakens me... so on that front you have already defeated me.
Forget the party politics and the patriotism. Just know that the rich are getting richer. You will never be invited into their ranks. Give up the flag waving and put downs of other good hearted Americans and practice good old fashioned deductive reasoning. Learn about other countries (not the propaganda that you have been taught... we are always the good guys, etc.) There is a HUGE world of knowldged out there that you have been prevented from learning. Freedom is not following blindly. It is taking responsibility for your roll in improving your world (country) especially when it is broken. We are screwing up right now. Help fix it. Dont just go along qouting rhetoric. That is what is exactly wha
74 - Zet
If I am wrong, I should be "told off".
Only a spoiled individual doesn't expect to be corrected when they are WRONG.
Spoiled = Rotten, useless, fowl, repulsive, to be discarded.
We are not spoiled are we?
75 - Zet
Jethro:
In Iraq and Afganistan are thousands of working class and middle class young people who are barely out of high school, most of whom could not afford collage and were promised an education and now find themselves giving their lives for the wealthy of our beloved land.
If most of us kept up with world politics and events we would have never agreed to the idea "Iraqi threat" in the first place. We would have KNOWN that Sadaam was not affiliated with Al Qaeda.