What is it that China doesn't want to tell us?
Chinese ambassador to the United Nations Office at Geneva Sha Zukang told a reporter yesterday that "It's better for the U.S. to shut up [about Chinese military spending]."…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Article comments
— go to most recent comments726 - Clavos
Clavos, are you stalking Dean?
Well...yes. That's what we do in the CIA--stalk socialists.
MCH, quit stalking me, or I'll sic the Chicom government sgents on you.
Beware... you know how they like to "take people out to the garden and shoot them in the head."
727 - Clavos
IC says to Dave,
To my observation you say nothing but repeatition of craps from CIA
IC:
"craps" is a game of chance played with dice.
"Crap" is the stuff you guys put in your rice paddies to make the rice grow.
728 - Dave Nalle
What wealth of knowledge you are refering to? To my observation you say nothing but repeatition of craps from CIA funded Human Rights Watch.
This is called using evidence and sources to support an argument. Something I learned in graduate school.
And you have no basic training in economics although I heard someone say you talked about it.
Where do you get that idea? I specialized in economic history for my Masters Degree and I've taken both graduate and undergraduate courses in economics. And BTW, I survived a doctoral panel which had several socialists on it.
I believe that wealth is zero, right?
Huh?
Or you are just refering to how to torture people?
I defer to you on that subject.
Dave
729 - I'm Chinese
Dave
Master in Economics? Even don't know the growth of economy is not BY increase in productivity? What history of economics did you study?Marsian economies?
730 - I'm Chinese
Clavos
I have given up on you. Dave is far more educated than you and more fun to deal with. You are just a yacht building yard security, I have no interest talking to you unless I decide to order a yacht there in the future.
731 - Dean
"I specialized in economic history for my Masters Degree and I've taken both graduate and undergraduate courses in economics. And BTW, I survived a doctoral panel which had several socialists on it."
My experience has been that when someone has to tell me he actually went to school, how much he learned, and how smart he is, that person is immature, lacks self confidence, is fearful of being criticized for asinine positions on issues, and on and on...
I could go on but I won't.
732 - Clavos
Clavos
I have given up on you
BINGO!
You are just a yacht building yard security, I have no interest talking to you unless I decide to order a yacht there in the future.
Well, you can't order it from me, I'm just the yard security guard who moonlights for the CIA.
733 - Dave Nalle
Not a Masters in Economics, a Masters in History with a focus on economic history.
Point taken on my earlier misuse of productivity. I wasn't aware we were having an economics quiz. In pure economic terms productivity usually refers to industrial output. I was using it in a broader, non-technical sense not thinking that we were having a hardcore economics debate
Indeed, it is not the productivity of an individual or of a specific business which grows an economy, except in limited and short-term ways, but the expansion of the business sector, which is I was referring to somewhat innacurately as the overall ability of a society to produce growth.
Dave
734 - I'm Chinese
Dean
I can not agree with you any more! Come on and give me a hug!
735 - I'm Chinese
Dave
It seems my duty to correct your fundamental errors in economics and Chinese government, normal life things like that. Productivity is a measure of the quality of economic growth, neither it is the driving force of growth nor equal to economic growth. Over 1995-2000, Chinese GDP grew above 8% a year with its productivity barely increased. Why? Because then the government pumped a lot of resource in to the state-owned business and restrictions on private firms were not lifted. Those SOBs (just the same for Son of Bitches, I admire the inventor of the phrase state-owned business, who is rightfully portraying them!) just did not even try to improve how they did things! After that the Chinese government found itself unable to sustain that. So change in the growth mode became the first thing in economic reform. First restrictions on private business are lifted for most part. More state-owned firms are listed in the stock market and the bosses of these firms are measured not only in terms of usual indexes like profit, return of net assets, but also for the first time the STOCK prices. The bosses are put to the public test because we investors know better how well firms are doing than the State Asset Management Services! Is it amazing that now China is growing even faster than before when its magnitude of economy is much larger than then? It is the policies that count in China! You draw the right policies then the Chinese economy will do the rest itself well. Actually the SOBs are doing well if proper governance structures are established. Now stock options are introduced in the SOBs. The established doings of Corporate America are absorbed quietly and quickly in China. Welcome to the world of Corporate China!
By the way, I don't know what history you studied, but definitely unearth!
736 - Dave Nalle
IC, what you're describing is an economy in the process of conversion from one economic system to another. And that's a good thing for China. But the question is which will break first, the current commitment to expanding capitalism which will ultimately require greater individual liberty, or the stranglehold of your government on the rights of the people.
Fully functional capitalism cannot exist in an environment with central government control of resources and planning and a command and control style government cannot survive the constant demands of economically empowered people to determine their own destiny.
Which do you think is going to survive, your beloved authoritarian government or your dreams of ongoing growth and prosperity for China? There will come a point where you have to choose.
Based on your admiration for the emerging Chinese economy I'm guessing that's the side you're on, though it would obviously be a big mistake to admit it publicly. Have your bosses figured out yet that you are just biding time until the forces of economic change destroy them and the system they rule you by?
It is the policies that count in China! You draw the right policies then the Chinese economy will do the rest itself well.
The policies of political imprisonment and torture, limiting access to the internet, persecuting ethnic and religious minorities and suppressing free speech are standing in the way of the economy whether you admit they exist or not.
Dave
737 - STM
IC #533: "When you guys talk about Chinese history and territory, remember when our ancestors wear silk and reading printed books, your ancestors still live in caves with animal skins wrapped around and bearly speak languages, even you pround Jews"
Absolutely classic stuff, IC, and probably among your best work on this thread. And you're right, of course, old boy. My ancestors were probably running around with axes and horns on their helmets at the time, and doing God knows what. Pillaging and plundering most likely, the rotten buggers. Perhaps it's time we grew out of it, though.
Personally, however, I believe the invention of the chopstick has been China's greatest contribution to western popular culture, and crispy-skin chicken in special shenzan sauce with fried noodles must run a very close second.
I'm actually about to order some from the Lotus Garden. I do love Chinese!
738 - Dave Nalle
If you like the crispy chicken, you HAVE to try the crispy duck. It's to die for.
Dave
739 - STM
Only if it's boneless, Dave. But I must say, nearly every dish at the Lotus Garden is fantastic.
And although I love to live dangerously, I have never been able to pluck up the courage to order from the Chinese-language section of the menu ... Imagine the scenario:
STM, smiling (a facade, to cover his fear), points to dish #52.
Waiter, yelling to kitchen in Mandarin: "The English fool wants the aged she-goat in pig's blood sauce with pickled emu's testicles. Even I won't eat that sh.. "
STM: "With boiled rice and Chinese tea thanks."
740 - I'm Chinese
Dave, come on, you haven't responded to my offer. You just habitually return to your never stopping repeatition of lies.
Say the sentence to the first office you meet on the road to show my the greatness of America.
"I , Dave , hate George W. Bush. I'm going to build a 50-pound bomb and use a remote controlled pick-up to blow that SOB next month he visits my city."
Dave, you just dissapointed me. You have no knowledge and you have no courage. I wonder what you do to make a living if not working for the government? Hope you will not end up in welfare.
741 - I'm Chinese
Dave
for your information, back in 1980s, no economists in the West believed that China would succeed in its economic development, because it is direct contrary to what Western economics thinks right! Well, the truth is , we are inventing the Chinese Economics and the success of our endeavor gives us the right to do that. So although you might listen to some 3-class economics lecture about Western economics, you surely won’t be able to understand Chinese Economics. But you understand it or not, like it or not, we do it our way. That’s, Chinese way or highway. hahaha
742 - STM
IC: I'm still not convinced by any of your arguments. For a so-called worker's state, wages, hours and working conditions in China are third-world, at best (enforced 12-hour-plus days, sharing basic sleeping accommodation that they have to pay for, substistence wages) and if China's economy is going ahead in leaps and bounds, it's doing so on the backs of the labouring bodies of its unhappy workers.
Why do you think so many western companies are investing in manufacturing plants in China? It's the money, silly. They save a fortune by paying workers a pittance (through the Chinese agencies responsible for managing and administering such schemes).
Making people work in near slave-like conditions is not a sign of a society that has advanced much beyond where it was in its golden age a few thousand years ago.
I realise there are good historical reasons for this and of course it's better than it has been, but in terms of genuine economic growth, as yet, it's still just a false dawn - and will remain so until the benefits of such growth are passed on to all the people.
So far, there's no real evidence that much has changed.If it had, people wouldn't be doing everything they can to move somewhere else.
You can't hide the fact that more people are permanently leaving China every day than are wanting to move there. The reason: it's a tough, hard life unless you're a party member, a family member of a party member or a member of the so-called new (economic) elite. Sometimes both or all three, as they're often connected.
The average worker in China (about 98 per cent of the population) still has very few rights, low wages and poor working and living conditions. Stop trying to fluff us with nonsense, IC: none of us is buying it.
The real indicator of a nation's economic growth and well-being is the corresponding well-being of its workers.
743 - I'm Chinese
STM
You're an informed and caring reader and I really have interest in talking to you.
1 I never claim China is a worker's state. It was Soviet Union. Actually you are right about the working conditions of young Chinese men and women. It’s no secret. You travel to China and will see it by your own eyes. Talking about the reasons would be too complicated. We will start with the colonial rule of western nations in China from 1840 to 1949, The Jap invasion and the civil war, the Cultural Revolution, ect.. The only thing we can talk about it is “Can we avoid that now?” Well, there is nothing I can do about it, as it seems an unavoidable. This is the historical stage England went through in 1700-1900, France 1800-1900, and America 1800-1900. Every industrial nation had this bitter history. Do not pretend you were as rich as now 100 years ago. We would like to jump over this bitterness, would you help us for goods China produce if prices were raised 5 times as you pay for now? Come on, you wear bargain shirts made in China and complain about the labor conditions in China. If you do care, please pay more.
2 All I say in this thread is not to boast the working conditions, which is really bitter and dangerous as many factories are not well equipped with safety facilities. I just want to tell people like Dave we are doing our best to improve our life and being poor now is not something to be shamed of. There are over 11 million people joining the working force for the first time every year. If you were the Chinese government leader, what would you do to feed them and give them job? Do you see France, where over 20% young people are out of job? But France is rich enough to feed them. But China cannot afford that because we do not have the wealth reserve from the past colonial occupation like France does. Think about this, can the planet provide enough new jobs for over 11 million Chinese young people with the pay as high as in America. If you have any feasible plan, grab a ticket and fly to Beijing and I’m sure you will be appointed to be the top economic adviser in 1 second!
3 Cheap conscience and accusation won’t help us. Rome was not build overnight, and most of Chinese cannot reach the living standard as you enjoy now even in 30 years, although the magnitude of the whole economy will. It’s good for talented Chinese people to seek better opportunities in other parts of the world, just like your forefathers crossed the Atlantic with a bag of potato back in 1800s. There is nothing to be ashamed of.
744 - I'm Chinese
It is just basic principle of economics, where there is over supply, the price will drop. The businessmen who run these sweat factories are to be blamed. But many of them are Western firms who many of you may work for! I don’t try to convince anyone China is heaven, I just want to tell those who never hear it from a Chinese about what we are doing now. Although we are still far behind, but we are working very hard and all we need is peace and time, and some balanced view from you!
745 - STM
IC: No doubt China's time will come. People-power will bring about slow human rights changes. It is a different place to the Soviet Union. I was in Moscow and Leningrad in the mid-1980s and it was tragic that a system that was supposed to benefit the people only benefited the select few who were running the place.
I often think when people were talking about the two superpowers and the disintegration of the Soviet Union, that in fact China was always a genuine third superpower. There has to be a counterbalance, despite the fact that in my view, the United States is a benevolent state rather than a malevolent one (despite some of its odd foreign-policy balls-ups). Luckily, China doesn't flex its muscles too much these days. And you don't hear about any disaffected, angry young Chinese planning to blow up trains in London or crash planes in New York.
The right not be blown up by idiots is a fundamental one.
So let's hope China's continuing economic growth and its trade with places like the US, Europe, Australia and Canada helps keep the world - almost - a peaceful place. I look forward to the day when we all live in peace and prosperity.
I'm probably dreaming, but it'd be nice all the same.
746 - I'm Chinese
STM
Even if we were under the aggression of America, it would be unconceivable that any young Chinese would hijack a plane and smash it to some building to kill Americans. It is just not Chinese! But a Chinese soldier will not hesitate to carry a roll of grenades to blow an American tank as we saw times after times in the Korean war. I rightfully claim that Chinese soldiers are the finest ones in the world. We strictly separate soldiers and civilians. Even with so much hatred towards Japs, there were rare killings of Jap civilians left in China after the WWII. We simply do not do that..
747 - STM
IC said: "It's good for talented Chinese people to seek better opportunities in other parts of the world, just like your forefathers crossed the Atlantic with a bag of potato back in 1800s."
Just want to clear this one up ... my forefathers never crossed the Atlantic, thank God, and so I remain, happily, forever un-American (I still ring up my friends in the US on July 4 to offer my condolences on the anniversary of their dreadful mistake in breaking away from the British empire). History, however, proves to me that America has been a good, kind and loyal friend, and is not generally engaged in schemes of evil subjugation (OK, a bit then, but none of us is perfect).
On the subject of transplanted nationality, luckily, one forefather headed in the other direction and crossed the Indian Ocean. I now live happily and peacefully in a beach paradise that also passes as the largest city in the south pacific rim.
It was built by convicts not puritans, is full of hard-working Chinese, and Gibbo doesn't live here anymore although I still have his old sleeping bag tucked away in the garden shed (come back mate, it's where you really belong ... a spiritual home, especially now with the record and all).
748 - I'm Chinese
The rapid growth of China will keep for a long time. Usually low pay and labor intensive industries will be shifted to less developed countries, but China is so vast and the supply of labor is almost unlimited, this shift will be done within the border, from east to west, from south to north. China will take a large share in capital-intensive, tech-intensive and labor-intensive industries. No economy in history has ever done that! America is capital-and-tech-intensive, but it needs products by cheap labor. So is EU. It is a mini-world economy by China itself. The complete industry chain is no rival in the world! And this will keep China grow fast for at least 30 years
749 - I'm Chinese
America treats English speaking countries well. Well is it outright racism?
750 - Johanna
Bryan,I assue that you never been in China.right? I just came back from China.I absolutely support Zet's comments.If you wanna find an answer. To travel China.or to know some local chinese.It makes sense:-)
751 - Dave Nalle
STM, China's economy has always been driven by slave labor. The entire idea of a central command and control state is to turn the vast majority of the population into a pool of cheap labor in order to speed up economic production without having to industrialize. The problem comes when the country actually starts to industrialize and yet continues to enslave the population with less and less justification. Unless China can move away from that practice they're in for a major crisis caused by their own success. That's if they don't choke on their own pollution first, of course.
Dave
752 - Clavos
America treats English speaking countries well. Well is it outright racism?
Since a common language is not part of the definition of race, no.
753 - I'm Chinese
Dave
You are so childish. I thought you were educated, now I know I'm wrong. You are just an uneducated lunatics living in your own fantasy. Are you talking about central planned economy? Well these are the only English words you can write so you keep doing that to show your wealth of knowledge? You have no idea of what WTO is and China is a major member of it? China's market economy status have been regonized by major international organizations. I quit talking to you, you just don't have any education of any sort.
754 - Dean
IC,
"I quit talking to you, you just don't have any education of any sort."
Congratulations.
It's time others realized this.
755 - Clavos
Birds of a feather...
756 - Dean
Clavos, stop worrying about the Chinese communists taking over the world.
Worry about the Chinese capitalists doing it.
757 - Clavos
Real capitalism knows no borders, Dean. I think the rise of multinational corporations is evidence of that.
What bothers me is that the largest and potentially most powerful nation on earth is still run by, and in the control of communists.
I would welcome capitalism taking over the world. A rising tide lifts all boats.
758 - Dave Nalle
Yes, IC, I do know what the WTO is. As for my education, aside from my years in college and grad school, it comes from reading and paying attention to current events, both of which are severely circumscribed in China where access to western books is limited and you only find out about those events which the government chooses to tell you about in order to serve their interests.
I never said China didn't have at least some sort of market economy, but when your single largest corporation is the Red Army and most of your other large enterprises are run by the government or have the government as a controlling silent partner, it is not an open, capitalist economy in the normal sense. It's actually quite close to the model of a fascist economy.
Given your dismaying ignorance about your own country and obvious government-programmed biases which you display, you're in no position to call anyone uneducated.
Dave
759 - I'm Chinese
Dave
You claimed you are a MASTER in history, well ,but I am sure you dont't know the real meaning of facism. Now the real definition of facism is
"a political system in which all power of government is vested in a person or group with no other power to balance and limit the activities of the government and plays on fears of communism,promots an aggressive nationalism and often racism. Fascist governments are often closely associated with large corporations and sometimes with extreme nationalism and racist activities. Modern fascism is often called "CORPORATISM"."
Well, America is far closer to facism than China.
hehehe. master in history, which university would admit any involvement with you?
760 - Clavos
IC, Your #760 indicates a confusion about what corporatism is.
For your edification, here's the definition from Wikipedia:
Historically, corporatism or corporativism (Italian corporativismo) is a political system in which legislative power is given to civic assemblies that represent economic, industrial, agrarian, and professional groups. Unlike pluralism, in which many groups must compete for control of the state, in corporatism, certain unelected bodies take a critical role in the decision-making process. These corporatist assemblies are not the same as contemporary business corporations or incorporated groups.
761 - troll
right...corporatist assemblies are more along the lines of the Federal Reserve or (admittedly less directly influential or formally structured) Cheney's get togethers with oil magnates
the people with the bucks control the State...which describes the US government pretty well despite its pluralist veneer - (and which Dave would say is as it should be)
762 - RedTard
Ohhh so proud, IC. Didn't it just rupture your collective 105 IQ's when those silly Europeans bent you over for 100 years, then the Japs came right back and made you their bitches!
So, IC, please study for additional IQ test, maybe next time you'll make 106. In the meantime, Japanese, Americans, and Europeans will continue to enjoy freedom and prosperity. You be the test taking champions, the west will continue to rule the world!
763 - Clavos
troll, do either the Federal Reserve or Cheney's get togethers with oil maganates have "legislative power"?
From where I sit, the Fed has been doing a damn good job of keeping interest rates and the economy on an even keel for a pretty good while, even without legislative power.
764 - troll
*do either the Federal Reserve or Cheney's get togethers with oil maganates have "legislative power"?*
as in power over legislators and legislation - you bet
why become a politician when you can own a few instead - ?
765 - Clavos
So, it boils down to opinion...
766 - troll
it boils down to corporate interests and access
767 - Dean
When you have enough money, you can buy the best.
We have the best Congress and Administration that 35,000 lobbyists can buy with the money in their deep pockets.
768 - I'm Chinese!
Buy more defense industry stocks, America is planning to invade Iran! Dave, Clavos,time to introduce freedom and democracy to Iran, join the Army and ride into Iran in your Stryker!
769 - Dave Nalle
We have the best Congress and Administration that 35,000 lobbyists can buy with the money in their deep pockets.
Money which comes from the public in the form of donations to issue PACs and money invested in companies who hire the lobbyists. In a very real way the lobbyists represent the American public more than our elected representatives do.
Dave
770 - I'm Chinese!
Dave
How many out of every 100 average American would pay for a lobbyist? Do these plobbyists receive more money from big firms or more from average Americans?
771 - Handsome Chinese
Chinese have a long history, a great culture, and lots of classical and modern writings which can make it possible for them to have access to information needed to solve problems in numerous different situations. (You can't learn them unless you learn the Chinese language first.) They can't be translated into English with precision.
772 - Handsome Chinese
I agree with IC that Chinese must get rich first before presenting more demands on political reforms. Let the poor be rich enough first before they talk more about political freedom.
However, certain things that are obviously against our conscience should not be tolerated. For instance, it is hard for foreigners and locals to understand why a good government would sentence a Chinese blind lawyer to four-year imprisonment just because he talked about why people should not be forced to abort babies.
There is no doubt that Chinese citizens should support the present strong government/administration. Without that support, China's social stability and economic developments will be seriously and adversely affected. However, human rights (at least outwardly) are what the Chinese government should begin to respect more in future.
What I am saying is that we may not always need a democratically government, but if you genuinely care for the people, you will make sure that good people who love the country have a chance to say something good for the country. (Sometimes, a country with democratic elections and a multi-party system may also be filled with thousands of selfish and hypocritical politicians who, in the course of their actions, actually split, disintegrate and destroy their country.)
I believe a single-party system like that in China can still work very well if the government begins to show some sensitiveness to certain human rights issues. Handling these issues in a more humane way can actually help to promote the image of the entire country and its administration.
There is nothing wrong about a single-party system like that in China, but there should be sufficient social and legal mechanisms to ensure that individuals' rights are respected and individuals are treated justly as the country develops rapidly in stages.
773 - Dean
Dave says --
"Money which comes from the public in the form of donations to issue PACs and money invested in companies who hire the lobbyists. In a very real way the lobbyists represent the American public more than our elected representatives do."
Ha!
Lobbyists generally represent special interest groups and cabals with deep pockets, not the majority of Americans.
The lobbyists with the most money to buy votes includes large corporations like Exxon Mobil and other multi-nationals (most partially owned by non-Americans). The total list of such corporations is too long to display here.
It is strange that some individuals believe that lobbyists for companies such as Exxon Mobil represent them.
Obviously, these individuals are delusional.
774 - Dave Nalle
How many out of every 100 average American would pay for a lobbyist? Do these plobbyists receive more money from big firms or more from average Americans?
From both, really. Everyone has lobbyists. The company you work for or own stock in, your local government, your ethnic group, neighborhood associations, charities, churches, unions and on and on and on.
Lobbyists generally represent special interest groups and cabals with deep pockets, not the majority of Americans.
And who among us isn't part of a special interest group or possessed of shared interests with a cabal with deep pockets?
The lobbyists with the most money to buy votes includes large corporations like Exxon Mobil and other multi-nationals (most partially owned by non-Americans). The total list of such corporations is too long to display here.
Corporations which you or I might work for or own stock in, thereby benefitting fromt he success of those corporations.
It is strange that some individuals believe that lobbyists for companies such as Exxon Mobil represent them.
Buy a few shares of Exxon stock and they do.
Obviously, these individuals are delusional.
Or less short-sighted than you are.
Dave
775 - Branden von Bismarck
OK...guys...
1. China will never accept those "self-determination" crap, OK? We were imposed with opiums from the Brits, so now ur telling us what to do, think we'll listen to you guys, NO. Btw, a drug dealer will be executed nowadays according to the chinese law (as well as many asian countries, of coz thos scums have to go away.). Lucky for thos Brits living 150 yrs ago.
2. China will continue the reform and become a Bismarckian nation rather than a democracy, and keep maintaining a good relationship with the countries in the region while hopefully have a chance the revenge what the Japanese had done to us (like Bismarck beat the French, tho it was not a revenge...).
3. "shut up?" so what, how many times you people want to pick on us?
4. Keep fighting in iraq, just keep fighting... don't stop, it's much much better. c how many new stupid rules have been imposed bcoz the airports r more dangerous than b4.
no personal attack...as u can see
Branden Yang