When Charles Whitman became America's most famous mass murderer, citizens helped stop him. Could you do the same today?
Here in Austin this was a big day in the media, though not one recognized nationwide. Forty years ago today a troubled ex-Marine named Charles Whitman climbed the clock tower of the University of Texas administration building and began to gun down students and passersby on the south and west malls of the University and on nearby Guadalupe Street.…
Article comments
76 - Clavos
But as I said earlier, perhaps compromise measures are possible since there certainly are responsible gun owners.
MOST gun owners are highly responsible, particularly in regard to their ownership and custody/handling of their weapons.
77 - Clavos
Good conversation, PETI. I enjoyed it. Gotta go for a while, my wife's getting jealous of you.
78 - pleasexcusetheinteruption12
#74, true but ussually it's difficult to tell if it's a well parented home until it's too late. And I would think one of the requirements of being a well parented home would be that the gun would not be accessible, which obviously is not the case and is the problem at hand. Even seemingly happy teens may have suicidal thoughts. I would venture most suicides are unexpected by the parent.
If society as a whole is going to become more responsible in gun use, then it needs to enact responsible gun laws that prevent mistakes by the irresponsible minority and protects the safety of the minor. What is wrong with turning responsible gun use into law? It would nanny only those who need nannying, and leave the responsible unaffected.
79 - pleasexcusetheinteruption12
Yes good converation.. i look forward to Dave's rebuttal..if you come back to this thread Dave check out post #73 (or our whole conversation if you prefer) as it reflects directly on the point you make in article.
80 - Clavos
but to take away the guns until they show they learn how to use them. But as I said earlier, perhaps compromise measures are possible since there certainly are responsible gun owners.
Wow, now I'm REALLY in trouble with my bride.
I agree with what you say above, but MANY gun owners are afraid (and not without justification) that, once the door is opened to ANY control, the do-gooders won't stop until guns are outlawed altogether.
(jumps up, rushes ouf room. "Yes, Dear. I'm coming...")
81 - Dave Nalle
Yikes, I go to a Fish Fry for a few hours and look at all the fun I missed.
Yes it does. When there is no gun present they are 1/3.4 times less likely to commit suicide. My statistic is not for suicide with a gun. It is for suicide in general. When there is no gun present in the household suicide is 3.4 times less likely.
So people in gun owning households kill themselves more often than people in gun-free households. But not necessarily with the gun. It's a weird stat, but I'll grant that it's intriguing. It suggests all sorts of sociological questions, but what it doesn't do is establish a causal relationship between the gun and the suicides. For all we know, male gun owners spend too much time cleaning their guns so their wives get depressed and overdose on valium. Do we blame that on the gun? Or perhaps gun ownership is higher in communities where there is a lot of crime and therefore people feel nervous, get depressed and kill themselves. There may be some third factor which causes people to buy guns and also separately to commit suicide.
It's an intriguing statistic, but by itself, without much more supporting data it doesn't tell us enough. It does suggest a theory to me, however.
A lot of people don't buy guns until they are in middle age when they have more valuable property and a home and a family to defend, and because as people get older they may feel less physically capable of defending themselves without a gun. The suicide rate also increases dramatically with age, presumably because greater responsibility can lead to more depression. Aging may be the cause of both greater gun ownership and higher rates of suicide in the same population. I don't have proof, but the theory makes a lot of sense.
So you're acknowledging that the social factors that made the parent own a gun in the first place also contributed to the parent's poor parenting skills such that his/her daughter committed suicide?
Is this a higher rate of teen suicide or a higher rate of suicide in general? Teens actually have a much lower suicide rate overall than older age groups. When yo first cited the 3.4x number you didn't indicate that it was only for teens. Is it?
In other words parents that buy a gun may have certain attitudes, such as perhaps a more violent attitude than other parents, and pass these attitudes onto their children, while providing an easy means to commit suicide, which in combination result in the child using the gun to commit suicide.
If you ask psychologists they generally don't look on suicide as an act of violence. And I've nver seen any studies correlating gun ownership with child abuse or domestic violence.
You are saying the same social factors that cause gun ownership cause suicide. So gun owners just tend to be worse parents? Personally I don't think it's the social factors of gun owners that cause suicide, I think it's mostly just the fact that they own a gun and may use it rashly in anger or depression. Whether it's the social factors of gun ownership, or gun ownership itself, you are acknowledging one or both are contributing to suicide.
Guns aren't necessarily an easy way to commit suicide. Slitting your wrists, taking prescription drugs and jumping off something high are all more easily accessible and less painful and less intimidating, so I don't see the argument for a gun being an easy way out here.
Dave
82 - Clavos
Dave,
As you can see, PETI and I had our own fish fry in your absence.
Clavos
83 - Baronius
Dave, your article reminds me of a story from a couple of years ago. (I can't vouch for the story's authenticity.) There was a bank robbery in California which got some national attention because the robbers had the police outgunned.
There was a gun shop a block or so away from the scene. Some officers ran over to it and told the owner what was happening. The owner just started grabbing guns, loading them, and tossing them over the counter. The police were streaming in, grabbing guns, and heading back out. They were eventually able to kill the robbers.
So it's still possible to find that can-do attitude.
84 - Dave Nalle
I remember that incident. The bank robbers had body armor and fully automatic assault rifles which had been stolen from a national guard armory, as I recall. When it comes to stopping power rather than just mass throwing of lead a good gun shop is going to have stuff in stock which would give police an edge against even the best armed robbers - much better than anything they would normally carry anyway.
Dave
85 - licensed hand gun owner
I own a handgun, I have the right to protect my family, myself and my land. I will do so responsibly. I don't beat my wife or my children and my children respect others. They say yes Sir and no Sir. The argument that if you own a gun your are bad parent is not plausible.
Thanks Dave for the article. After reading The August Texas Monthly and your comment I'm glad those citizens had rifles on that day. They saved alot more lives in my opinion. One pic that got my attention was the one where a man had his rifle on his hip protecting those people behind a building keeping them from Whitman's line of fire. I don't know if any of them were Anti-Gun or not but by the look on their faces they were glad that he and his gun was there that day.
Thanks,
R
86 - Dave Nalle
I haven't seen the new issue of Texas Monthly yet. My wife usually nabs it and I never see it again. As for any of the people in the crowd being anti-gun, I'm not sure there was such a thing as being anti-gun in Texas in 1966. One of the temporal shock issues I was dealing with in the article.
Dave
87 - licensed handgun owner
The August Texas Monthly is awesome!!! Individual accounts of those in and around that area on that day and how their lives were changed on that day. I agree probably wasn't a soul in Texas in 1966 that were Anti-Gun. What's odd I asked my mother and father from time to time about that day in 1966 but they didn't want to talk about. My dad told me later "Son that is a day that I would just soon forget" I heard tidbits about Charles Whitman whether it was in a movie or just short conversation with someone and his name was brought up but never until last week when I read the Texas Monthly how times have changed and what our law enforcement has learned from that day.
Have a Great Sunday,
R
88 - Dave Nalle
From what I've heard it was a seminal moment for law enforcement around the country and led to the creation of SWAT teams and modern hostage negotiation tactics. That's pretty significant, though the ironic part is that by all accounts those few officers and some civilians handled Whitman faster and more effectively than a modern SWAT team would have - though with a great deal more risk to themselves.
Dave
89 - Scott
This is a great article. The point on how today we are all looked as potential Whitmans hit the nail on the head.
Having served in the military and grown up around guns, i know that they are only dangerous in the wrong hands. s@#t like this will always be a risk, but look at the good that occurs when guns are in the right hands.
90 - Blackhawk Larry
Never commented online before, but this exactly what Itold the wife this morn. Good insightful article. I think many of the comments in here reflect society all to well.
We rather focus on the instrument rather than address or admit to ourselves how we have failed and given in to being truly insensitive to others. It easier to subjegate than it is to embolden. In fact I believe as society has become more intolerant, the more we we become exclusitory. People on the fringes of this intolerance become lost and unable to connect, particularly when they need our help the most, we turn away.
I'm a cowboy.
91 - jose
look at me a im loser who can a kill a pregnant lady derrrrrr
92 - roy
no wonder he killed all those people in austin from that tower people in austin are assholes and hard to live around there like new yorkers he could take there arrogance any more.
93 - Dave Nalle
To be fair, the problem with arrogant lefist yuppies in Austin is a relatively recent development that happened after Whitman was dead.
Dave