Instead of trying to seize control of convention after convention, they could have laid relatively low and worked within the system and probably sent even more delegates to the national convention than they are likely to now. They could have won over allies and made converts within the mainstream of the party. The backlash would have been minimal and while they might not have been able to stop McCain from getting the nomination they could have had a profound influence on the platform, the issues raised in the election and the future direction of the party.
As things are developing now, by the time they are done, they will have not only caused the party to ostracize them, but they will likely strengthen the worst elements of the party and they will have discredited the libertarian ideology they are associated with. Some of us have been working for decades to return the GOP to its traditional libertarian values, and to take control away from the statists and the religious right. We may see all of that work undone in a matter of months.
It may not be too late for them to change tactics and salvage something from all of their efforts. If their numbers and their organization were turned towards influencing the party more positively they might be able to bring about amazing change and set the party back on the right course. I don't really see it happening. Too many of the Paul faction seem to be ideologues and fanatics, driven by radical beliefs and paranoid fantasies. Mississippi, Virginia, Arizona, and Utah have conventions next week. I suspect we'll see more of the same - attempted takeovers responded to by harsh crackdowns and more people on both sides increasingly angry and frustrated, leading up to a final confrontation at the national convention which devolves into chaos and leaves the party weaker than it needs to be to face the real threat in November.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - bo
Too many of the Paul faction seem to be ideologues (because we set high goals like honesty and integrity) and fanatics, (because we are aware of the current potential disaster that awaits us if we elect another puppet) driven by radical beliefs (like the fed printing money out of thin air is bad) and paranoid fantasies. (like the MSM is corrupt, etc...)" - Dave Nalle
2 - CD
Oh, you've been working for years to change the party back to libertarian like values? How was that going? The time for nicey nice is OVER! You are an idiot.
3 - Steve Irwin
We will stay the course. The strategy is working. The real blow-back we are seeing here locally is against the GOP. The rank-and-file members are not happy about the Party tightening the screws and turning delegates into observers. This is causing many people to align with us, even if they didn't support Ron Paul in the primary.
The GOP needs us if they want to win the general elections.
4 - Gmartine
Ron Paul supporter have been playing by the rules. This is a republic and we are not going anywhere.
5 - Dr Dreadful
We will stay the course. The strategy is working.
Now where have we heard that before...?
6 - Tim, Minnesota
How many caucus, BPOU, CD conventions, or State conventions have you personally attended? I have and am a delegate, chair and intend to run for State House. I have been a voting Republican for 30 years. Our Ron Paul supporters have followed ALL the GOP party rules, Roberts Rules of Order at every level. The election system is set up so participating members get to make the decisions. Every McCain, Romney, Huckabee supporter in Minnesota had 100% the same opportunities we Ron Paul supporters had. They just chose to stay home and watch a rerun of "Friends".
Your article is full of false accusations, misrepresentations of the facts. I have attended each level of the election process. Ron Paul groups were welcome by the GOP until the state level. The presidential process is a grass roots system and works very appropriately. Over the last 3 months of conventions in our area McCain, Romney and Huckabee delegate supporters have turned into Ron Paul supporters. The tide is shifting away from McCain and National GOP is trying to suppress the grassroots will of delegates properly seated within the rule of law who chose to support Ron Paul.
Chaos is not an appropriate description of the events. Another correction is Minnesota elected 12 or 14 Ron Paul delegates of the 24 delegates to national from the 8 congressional Districts.
7 - Richard, CA
I am a RP supporter and I'm not paranoid, a pothead, a lunatic, or a fringe radical. These are just a few of the nicer names we've been called. I watched video of the NV GOP convention and I didn't see the Ron Paul people causing problems. What I saw was a very vocal group of people that have strong beliefs. They were following all the rules set fourth. The GOP chairman and McCain supporters were the ones being disruptive and eventual walked out bringing the convention to a screeching halt just because they couldn't legally stop what was going on. The leadership of the GOP obviously doesn’t like disruptions to their little kingdom. They allow us peasants to pretend like we have a voice in the party until we try to exercise it.
8 - Charles
"Some of us have been working for decades to return the GOP to its traditional libertarian values, and to take control away from the statists and the religious right."
Yeah, and as Dr. Phil says, "How's that workin' for ya?" Not very well. Meanwhile the Paulites have, within LESS THAN A YEAR, taken over countless counties and are on the verge of taking over several state GOPs.
As other replies have pointed out, we are working WITHIN THE SYSTEM and are FOLLOWING THE RULES. I note that your blather about "ideologues and fanatics, driven by radical beliefs and paranoid fantasies" isn't buttressed by a SINGLE example. I don't deny that some RP supporters fit those descriptions, but that can be said about Obama, Clinton, McCain, etc. just as easily. And at least in my county, those folks fit the "fringe" stereotype so well that they don't even PARTICIPATE in the official GOP functions :-).
9 - Dave Nalle
A couple of points.
Bo. You're charmingly naive, but naivete ceases to be charming when it becomes a political movement.
I'm interested to see several people here saying they're going to stick with the GOP whatever happens. That's not something I've been hearing from Ron Paul supporters before this. Up until this point the party line has been that if Paul doesn't get the nomination they'll leave the party and vote for Obama or the libertarian candidate or not vote at all.
And a general point.
What the Ron Paul supporters seem not to get is that you can agree with them and with Ron Paul himself on the importance of the Constitution and agree with them on basic libertarian values and still be extremely uncomfortable with support for the agenda of the John Birch Society and acceptance of a variety of conspiracy theories as legitimate.
Clearly some people are able to overlook the craziness and just see the positive of the Ron Paul movement, but for a lot of us the craziness puts everything else in doubt. It is as hard for some of us to accept as part of the movement to reform the GOP nativism and protectionism as it is for others to support the belief in missionary libertarianism and setting free the people of the world.
Dave
10 - Dave Nalle
How many caucus, BPOU, CD conventions, or State conventions have you personally is attended?
This year or in total? GOP or Libertarian or both?
I have and am a delegate, chair and intend to run for State House.
I'm an alternate, but expect to get seated as a delegate and have been a delegate before. I ran for state house in 2002.
I have been a voting Republican for 30 years.
31 years for me.
Our Ron Paul supporters have followed ALL the GOP party rules, Roberts Rules of Order at every level. The election system is set up so participating members get to make the decisions. Every McCain, Romney, Huckabee supporter in Minnesota had 100% the same opportunities we Ron Paul supporters had. They just chose to stay home and watch a rerun of "Friends".
I believe I said something very much like this in the article to explain why the Paul faction has been able to come on so strong. And I didn't say that they haven't followed the rules. Perhaps you didn't read the article. But whether they use the rules or not, taking over conventions and kicking out other elements of the party completely builds ill will.
Your article is full of false accusations, misrepresentations of the facts. I have attended each level of the election process.
Perhaps, but you're clearly not at all familiar with how things have gone in other states. That's why I do something called research when I write these articles and provide them new fangled hyperlinks so you can expand your knowledge beyond Minnesota as I have done.
Ron Paul groups were welcome by the GOP until the state level..
Actually, here in Texas hostility began at the district level. Go use the links to my prior articles.
The presidential process is a grass roots system and works very appropriately. Over the last 3 months of conventions in our area McCain, Romney and Huckabee delegate supporters have turned into Ron Paul supporters. The tide is shifting away from McCain and National GOP is trying to suppress the grassroots will of delegates properly seated within the rule of law who chose to support Ron Paul.
Utter bullshit. I've actually talked to hundreds of Ron Paul supporters. Almost none of them ever supported any other candidate and a good portion fo them never voted before this election or came straight over from the LP.
Chaos is not an appropriate description of the events.
Note that I didn't say a word about it being a description of events in Minnesota, but it certainly applies to Maine, Nevada and Texas.
Another correction is Minnesota elected 12 or 14 Ron Paul delegates of the 24 delegates to national from the 8 congressional Districts.
How is that a correction? It's exactly what I said in the article.
Before you start throwing accusations of errors around you might want to actually read the article you're responding to.
Dave
11 - Jasonh
Dave
I was at the Nevada State Republican Convention. I was involved in the process leading up to it. Our strategy amounted to reading Robert's Rules of Order, reading the proposed convention rules as espoused by the Party leadership, and showing up. There was no attempted "takeover". We were motivated, excited to participate in the process, and everyone else stayed home.
Before the party leadership illegally recessed the convention without a discussion or a vote we managed to elect 7 out of the first 9 delegates to the national convention. We were on our way to capturing 80% to 90% of Nevada's entire slate of delegates (31).
The main problem is that the Republican Party leadership is not well acquainted with people expressing contrary opinions. The leaders I've come in contact with are incredibly uncomfortable with any individual standing up and saying, "Mr. Chairman, Point of Order" or "Mr Chairman, Point of Inquiry".
What the Republican Party leadership likes to see is a well managed convention with zero discussion or debate. The problem is that there is no way Ron Paul supporters will win any delegates, or change anyone's mind on any issue if we do not open up the convention process to allow contrary opinions.
The Party Establishment in Nevada seemed shocked that a supermajority of delegates might actually want a fair and honest method of selecting delegates to the National Convention, rather than to rely on a handful of people in a nominations committee.
I ask you: What is the point of attending any precinct caucus in the entire country if the whole thing is rigged at the State Convention? Why even go to a State convention if the only thing you do is listen to a few boring speeches, pray to God, and salute the flag? That's not the point of a convention. The point of a convention is to decide how the party will operate, and what the goals will be until the next convention. This requires debate, discussion, and sometimes results in conflict. And in the long term it is good for the Republican Party.
12 - Richard, CA
Nicely said Jason.
I'm an American and our country is all about throwing out leadership that's not working for us. I will vote my conscious not who I'm told to vote for by the party. For years I've ether not voted or voted for the lesser of 2 evils. People that strongly support Paul do it because he is a man that does walk the walk. It's not just the man, it's what he represents. He is what most politicians should be but aren't. Our Government is failing the people and it needs to change very soon or we won't have a country.
13 - Dan Miller
Dave,
P.T. Barnum would be proud; if only he could be here. Whether he would prefer the Democrat or Republican circus is a question to which we will never know the answer.
I favor many of the ideals espoused by the libertarians, and hope to see them implemented. The problem is that we have gone way too far in the wrong direction for draconian changes to take place immediately.
Compare England and France: France had no significant social reforms, gradual or otherwise, and its revolution with Dr. Guillotine's wonderful device and all that stuff to produce instant change resulted. England chose a saner route, with gradual change which eventually brought about useful reforms helpful to most. Here, I speak of England a long time ago; it seems to have gone to hell in a hand basket in recent years, but that's a different problem.
Dan
14 - C. Arthur
I think one of the chief errors in the above piece is the accusation that causing disruptions was part of our strategy. Disrupting the conventions would be counterproductive. Our pleas for fairness and our insistence on following the rules are interpreted as disruptions by those who would wrong us. When our people speak out, no matter how calmly, politely, or eloquently, it is considered a disruption because we're rocking the sinking boat that is the GOP.
15 - JP
There's no way that being low-key would be more successful than the current strategy. Paul supporters aren't becoming delegates to make GOP friends or gain political power. They are becoming delegates to be a voice for traditional republicans. You know, those pesky kooky types that believe in small government, low spending, civil liberties, and non-intervention.
16 - Tim, Minnesota
"Paul supporters have done very well in states which use this approach, taking half of the 12 available delegate slots in Minnesota and a...."
The actual delegate is 12 to 14 of 24, ok your right on the 50% but not the total delegates. We each get a point here.
"This sort of representation, out of proportion to Paul's actual standing in the popular vote in those states, is made possible because Paul's supporters are highly motivated...."
So your solution for Minnesota would be? Minnesota elects unbound national delegates. On election day (super Tuesday) McCain failed to get 78% of the voters support, yet Minnesota is supposed to bend over to the national GOP demand to vote for McCain.
And in Minnesota there are Romney and Huckabee folks who changed to Ron Paul as they distruct McCain.
I also read many stories,listen to and watch video of the proceedings, educate myself of the delegate process around the country. I just do not agree with your prespective of events and diagnosis. Is there not room for diverse views of the same quarter here?
17 - Dave Nalle
I was at the Nevada State Republican Convention. I was involved in the process leading up to it. Our strategy amounted to reading Robert's Rules of Order, reading the proposed convention rules as espoused by the Party leadership, and showing up. There was no attempted "takeover". We were motivated, excited to participate in the process, and everyone else stayed home.
That's a bit disingenuous. Is it not true that you forced a vote to throw out all the recommendations of the nominating committee and take entirely new delegate nominations from the floor? That's what multiple media sources have reported happened. That's a takeover.
I'm also quite familiar with what has happened at other conventions and the techniques used, and they seem to be the same ones employed in Nevada, which is basically to dominate debate from the floor, force a vote and then take over the convention. Which is fine up to a point, except then it turns into mob/majority rule and the result is that even if the Ron Paul folks are only 40% of the delegates plus a few random people who vote along with them, everyone else gets shut out and all the delegates go to Paul.
Not only is this what has happened at other conventions, if you go on the various Ron Paul discussion sites, it is clearly the planned strategy, so don't tell me you had something else in mind. You yourself admitted that the moment you got hold of the nominating process it was mostly just Ron Paul people getting nominated.
Before the party leadership illegally recessed the convention without a discussion or a vote we managed to elect 7 out of the first 9 delegates to the national convention. We were on our way to capturing 80% to 90% of Nevada's entire slate of delegates (31).
See, you make my point for me. From all accounts Ron Paul supporters were far less than 80% or 90% of the delegates at the convention, and Paul certainly didn't get 80% or more of the votes in the primary, so you're seizing control of the process and producing a result which is unfair and unrepresentative. It's not surprising that many have called the techniques used by Paul supporter fascistic.
The main problem is that the Republican Party leadership is not well acquainted with people expressing contrary opinions. The leaders I've come in contact with are incredibly uncomfortable with any individual standing up and saying, "Mr. Chairman, Point of Order" or "Mr Chairman, Point of Inquiry".
I don't give a rat's ass if you make the leaders uncomfortable. What I'm concerned about is the average delegates who you have shut out of the process and the primary voters whose intent is no longer represented once the Paul faction takes over.
The problem is that there is no way Ron Paul supporters will win any delegates, or change anyone's mind on any issue if we do not open up the convention process to allow contrary opinions.
Until your own actions motivated crackdowns at these conventions they all had procedures for participation by the delegates, from the opportunity to appear before various committee or to be on those committees to provisions for proposals from the floor. You guys pushed the leadership into a corner and generated the clampdown which you are now complaining about.
I ask you: What is the point of attending any precinct caucus in the entire country if the whole thing is rigged at the State Convention? Why even go to a State convention if the only thing you do is listen to a few boring speeches, pray to God, and salute the flag? That's not the point of a convention. The point of a convention is to decide how the party will operate, and what the goals will be until the next convention. This requires debate, discussion, and sometimes results in conflict. And in the long term it is good for the Republican Party.
And because you Paul supporters are all conflict with no interest in debate, discussion or participation you guarantee that none of the positive things you and I both agree should be part of a convention will happen. What would be good for the Republican Party would be libertarian activists who are actually interested in changing the party constructively rather than disruption and destruction.
Dave
18 - Dave Nalle
There's no way that being low-key would be more successful than the current strategy.
Since the current strategy is going to result in total disaster and a resurgence of the religious right, almost anything would be better.
Paul supporters aren't becoming delegates to make GOP friends or gain political power. They are becoming delegates to be a voice for traditional republicans. You know, those pesky kooky types that believe in small government, low spending, civil liberties, and non-intervention.
Speaking as one of those traditional Republicans I don't see how my voice is effectively expressed by creating a situation in which party leaders silence me along with the Ron Paul supporters.
Dave
19 - Robert
All:
Dave is a shill for the establishment. He calls people names to get attention, even if he has never met them and does not know them.
The fact that he is so vitriolic toward Ron Paul and the John Birch Society speaks volumes. The establishment will only bother to attack leaders in the fight to restore liberty if they are effective. So if Dave calls you an unsavory name, consider it a compliment and keep up the good work!
Dave really wants a seat at the establishment table, to be a guy like CFR member Tom Braden. Before Ron Paul, there was a 5 term Democrat from Georgia in Congress with the exact same platform as Dr. Paul. Go to youtube.com and search for congressman "Larry McDonald" and watch a 1983 "Crossfire" episode from CNN with Dr. McDonald, Pat Buchanan and CFR member Tom Braden.
20 - Richard, CA
Well Dave I have to repeat something that was already said. What's the point of the conventions if this isn't part of the process and it's all said and done? We are talking about electing delegates to the national convention, not who the president will be. If those delegates are lawfully obliged to vote for McCain the 1st round they will.
I like how you blame RP supporters for the GOP clamping down on everyone. I think they would do it to anyone that's disagreeing with them.
"Since the current strategy is going to result in total disaster and a resurgence of the religious right, almost anything would be better."
I thought we were the paranoids?
21 - Ray
" ...leaves the party weaker than it needs to be to face the real threat in November."
'the real threat' hasn't waited for November. The real threat to the Republican party is its entrenched leadership that does not respect the platform, or traditional conservative values. The Republican party is already weak compared to the Democratic party. Ron Paul has provided a badly needed boost in party membership and participation. If the Republican party shuns these Ron Paul Republicans, they will continue to lose ground to the Democrats. I've personally seen former party loyalists come around to Ron Paul. Here in Pennsylvania, our primary is finished, but Ron is *still* winning hearts and minds. Loyalty to the constitution and to what his right should come before party loyalty. McCain simply can not win the presidency. Conservatives will not vote for him. Seeing that the vast majority of the public wants to end the wars in the middle east, Ron Paul is the only Republican with a(albeit small) chance to win the general election. Democratic party loyalists will also be disappointed if Hillary gets the nomination, and their calls for party unity fall on deaf ears. Without a good third party candidate, and Hillary as the Democratic nominee, I suspect a very low turnout in November. If Obama gets the nod(and he should), he will win easily. Maybe a miracle will happen at the Republican convention, and many party loyalists will realize that McCain can't win. Romney may have a chance to win. Huckabee has no chance. Come to think of it, maybe the collapsing dollar will get Ron Paul enough support for a coup at the convention. One can hope...
22 - Pablo
"Your article is full of false accusations, misrepresentations of the facts. I have attended each level of the election."
Then Davey responded with an astonishing revealing statement! He said:
"Perhaps, but you're clearly not at all familiar with how things have gone in other states".
Just to make my point, Dave are you actually you actually saying that PERHAPS your article is full of false accusations and misrepresentations? My oh my I am amazed at you frankness, and you being so candid as to admit the OBVIOUS.
Thanks bubba. I can only continue to hope that the Paulites ruin your party completely and utterly, just a sweet dream that I have.
You Go Doctor!!
Perhaps, but you're clearly not at all familiar with how things have gone in other states."
23 - Pablo
Robert said:
"Dave is a shill for the establishment."
"Dave really wants a seat at the establishment table, to be a guy like CFR member Tom Braden. Before Ron Paul, there was a 5 term Democrat from Georgia in Congress with the exact same platform as Dr. Paul. Go to youtube.com and search for congressman "Larry McDonald" and watch a 1983 "Crossfire" episode from CNN with Dr. McDonald, Pat Buchanan and CFR member Tom Braden."
Davey a shill? How paranoid (smirk). You can fool all your cute friends Davey, but those of us that are familiar with your shenanigans know what your really about. You adore the CIA and the CFR. Your candidate of choice is a lifetime member of the CFR. In a similar way that many zionists accuse anyone who criticizes Israel with the smear of being anti-semitic, you do the same by trying to characterize those the love liberty, freedom and a constitutional republic ala the JBS, with racism. It doesn't wash Dave, and the more you write the more you reveal yourself for the shill that you are.
You talk liberty out of one side of your mouth, the other you side on the tin pot dictators, the globalists, the 9/11 commission, terrorizing other countries with military juntas, etc. The list goes on and on Davey. We know who you are and what your about, and it sure aint liberty baby.
24 - LibertySilver
At least the Conventions are not boring!
Great that the Ron Paul people are interested enough to kick up some dust!
It's about time some Americans showed up to straighten out the corruption.
I love it!
25 - LibertySilver
Hey- not only are The Ron Paul people picking up delegates, a lot are running for Congress!
Here are some from New York State.