The politicians are repeating the same mistakes of the Great Depression.
History repeats itself. It is amazing how similar the 1920s and 2000s have become. First were the unsustainable economic booms; then came the busts. Of course the easy money policies of the Federal Reserve caused both busts. Then there is the government’s response to both crises: public works programs, lots of stimulus spending, more easy money by the Fed, and tax hikes on the rich. To be sure, these policies did not cure what was ailing the economy in the late 1920s and they are not curing our economic ills today. Really, the only dreadful piece of the government’s response to the crisis in the 1920s that is missing from today’s response is trade protectionism.…
Article comments
26 - Baronius
Roger, you were in total agreement with Handy, who brought up the Founders.
27 - roger nowosielski
I haven't read that part, I guess. My agreement then concerns the liberal - funny I should use that word, which accords with conservative thinking - interpretation of the First Amendment (especially in this day and age).
28 - handyguy
For those interested in real discussion of the first amendment, as opposed to phony doublespeak in defense of the rich retaining their political clout, I recommend the wonderful documentary that debuted on HBO last night: Shouting Fire: Stories from the Edge of Free Speech. Great stuff.
I also find it amusing that cap-and-trade, a market-based concept if ever there was one, causes such frothing at the mouth among our conservative friends.
As usual, as always, apparently, if Obama is fer it, then they're agin it. That's the main principle I see at work in the rightist/libertarian bloviations that still predominate on this site. I had been away for a few months. Not much has changed.
There's very little nuance or middle ground in the discussions, just caricature, name-calling and vast oversimplification of every complex issue.
29 - handyguy
And, sorry, can't resist:
Viva Franken!
30 - roger nowosielski
There's nothing magical about it, Handy. The Republicans are a party of wealth; and the only thing that matters is preserving their advantage. Consequently, you stoop as low as need be, never mind the quality of the argument.
Clear thinking has never been a virtue. Personal advantage always has been. And so you do whatever it takes, and no matter how ridiculous you come across doing so.
31 - The Obnoxious American
you anti corporatists are so full of it. Ever heard of opportunity? This is what the GOP favors. And it just so happens that in order for there to be opportunity, and the resulting wealth, then you need a vibrant and free private sector. Government never made anyone rich, happy or even contented.
The point so many of you wealth haters miss is that poor people in America, aside from having the best standard of living in the world of poor people, choose their existance. Nothing stopping them from reaching for the stars, except for them. And that's their right, just like it's my right to reach for the stars if I choose. It's a disgrace. If you don't like the free market, then move to a country with a closed economy, and start a blog (if you can) and report back as to how you're liking that.
32 - Baronius
Roger, this is the same kind of simplistic argument as was in that spousal-abuse video you recommended. You ascribe values to a party that no human being would have. Of course Republicans sin in defense of the rich; that's their thing. Never mind that a lot of Republicans are rural and below-average earners, they must be being duped. In fact, that's probably proof of another sin the Repubicans commit, leading dumb poor people astray.
I think that you and Handy are wrong, not evil.
33 - Bliffle
OA is wrong again:
31 - The Obnoxious American
you anti corporatists are so full of it. Ever heard of opportunity? This is what the GOP favors. And it just so happens that in order for there to be opportunity, and the resulting wealth, then you need a vibrant and free private sector. Government never made anyone rich, happy or even contented.
Opportunity is not enabled by corporations. Quite the opposite, corporations do their utmost to stomp out the competition of opportunistic entrepeneurs, and attempt by fair means and foul to control innovation.
Small businesses have far more to fear from the corporations who covet their share of business than they do from the government.
34 - Bliffle
A crucial element of any cap/trade proposal involves the initial distribution of Rights. The corps try to get allocated Rights commensurate with their past pollution numbers, but probably the Rights will be auctioned off. No one seems interested in distributing the Rights equally among the citizens, which one might think more equitable since it is the citizens who will be breathing the bad air. Besides, the money flow is wrong: money should flow from bottom to top, as every Corporate Statist knows.
35 - Cindy
OA is wrong???
You're kidding! I'm incredulous!!!
Oh, wait a minute...I thought you said he was... 'right'. That's okay then. Never mind. Carry on.
36 - Silas Kain
Well, Cindy, he is right -- far far far far far right.
And as far as being anticorporatist? I hate GE, I hate WalMart, I hate Archer Daniels Midland. I detest Bank of America. Yep, I'm a moonbat.
37 - Cindy
Boycott Capitalism!
*has a breaking news story in pending...walks back and forth...sighs....looks at the clock...taps foot...rolls eyes...wonders whatever became of instant gratification...goes out for a cherry martini*
38 - Cindy
...or two :-)
39 - Silas Kain
There are many directions to go with 'instant gratification' but I'll just leave it alone. Mark Sanford seems to be the champion of "IG" these days.
40 - roger nowosielski
"Never mind that a lot of Republicans are rural and below-average earners."
Of course there are lots of them, too. There'll always be fools. They may be dirt-poor, but if they're better off than some others, it's enough for a low-life to think they're OK.
And there's nothing simplistic, BTW, about Lakoff's video. Just because it gets down to basics don't mean it's simplistic. Most elaborate theories and ideologies, whether of liberal or conservative bent, arise from simple (read: basic) assumptions about human nature and very simple (again, read: basic) feelings and emotions. Sophistication of thought is no indication of sophisticated origins. It's more like a mask for the primitive in us.
41 - roger nowosielski
What you've got to do, Silas, is bring some of those people in line. Of all who pretend to represent conservative thought on this side, you're rendition of is is indeed most enlightened.
42 - Glenn Contrarian
OA -
"The point so many of you wealth haters miss is that poor people in America, aside from having the best standard of living in the world of poor people, choose their existance."
1 - The poor in America do NOT have the best standard of living in the world of poor people. THAT particular award, OA, would belong almost any of the poor in Western Europe or any of the major nations of the British Commonwealth. How do we know this? Easy - Universal Health Care.
If you travel to some of these countries, you'll notice something: ALMOST NO HOMELESS!
So...if our poor people have it so good, why do THEY have so few homeless?
2. They 'choose their existence'? Dude, you need a urinalysis in the worst way. I'm sure all the inner-city kids CHOOSE to grow up in the slums with the highest rates of crime and drugs, CHOOSE to attend the very worst schools in the nation, CHOOSE to join gangs when the choice is "choose or die!", CHOOSE to sell their bodies on the street because their parents didn't (or couldn't) ensure they got even a high-school education....
OA, you've got a LOT to learn about this nation of ours. It's a wonderful nation - but we don't have the highest standard of living, we don't have the longest life expectancy, we work the longest hours of any nation on earth, we have the fewest vacation days of any industrialized nation, we always score among the lowest in academic competitions.
We ARE great. We ARE the strongest defender of freedom. BUT we CAN do a whole heck of a lot better.
43 - handyguy
I never said anything about Republicans per se [in this thread I mean], although Roger did.
I do not 'hate' wealth, or corporations.
I object to the fallacious use of the first amendment to defend the expenditure of money to gain political influence.
In the artificially rarefied atmosphere of Blogcritics, I often am branded a 'leftist' because I defend the president against the [silly, overstated] attacks he receives here on an eye-rollingly regular basis.
But I distrust rigid ideology, on the right and the left. The 'arguments' on here, with their almost total lack of give and take and nuance, turn into repetitive declarations of either 'capitalists suck' or 'government programs suck.' No one acknowledges any value in the other side's argument, no one learns anything, no one gets anywhere.
Phooey.
44 - handyguy
OA's blaming the poor for being poor does earn him a special place in hell. Pretty damn despicable, as well as obnoxious.
45 - roger nowosielski
Well, Handy, I'm glad to hear then that you're being evenhanded. Silas Kain is too. And I'd like to say I'd consider myself in the same category as well.
Anyways, that's a start.
46 - Silas Kain
OK, I had a lot of commentary to wade through here. With regard to my colorful description of the Far Right, "Taliban" may be too harsh in some minds but not in mine. The Far Right along with their Radi-Christians have done more damage to the fabric of our society than liberals could dream of. Granted they don't usually resort to physical violence or deprivation of rights. Stand on the sidelines and watch protestors blocking women from going into a Planned Parenthood Clinic. Listen to what these people shout out to these young women who are making such a deep, personal decision. Where's the compassion? These same people who try to convert us to the religion of Christ use tactics opposite to the core of His teachings.
I totally agree with the Far Right when it comes to a strong defense is essential to our national security but that's where it ends. On the other side of the coin I find the Far Left just as dangerous because they'll stoop to the same tactics with equal parts of hate and spin. I liken the Far Left to the Bolsheviks. And we all know how that turned out.
Now back to conservatism. I was a mere lad when Barry Goldwater ran for office. Let me assure you, even in the 4th grade, I looked to Barry Goldwater as an American hero. Even my Great Grand Aunt Sarah, the consummate Irish Catholic Democrat, thought that Barry Goldwater was more like JFK than his successor. And, as we study the history of this nation during those times, we learn more about how right she was.
Let's take a stroll down memory lane with some quotes:
“I think every good Christian ought to kick Falwell right in the ass.”
“To disagree, one doesn't have to be disagreeable.”
“You don't have to be straight to be in the military; you just have to be able to shoot straight.”
“I won't say that the papers misquote me, but I sometimes wonder where Christianity would be today if some of those reporters had been Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.”
“It's wonderful that we have so many religious people in our party, ... They need to leave their theologies in their churches.”
“The rights that we have under the Constitution covers anything we want to do, as long as its not harmful. I can't see any way in the world that being a gay can cause damage to somebody else,”
“A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away.”
So, do you like or agree with any of the quotes? They are ALL Barry Goldwater. You see, the Far Right would have you believe that they are upholding the tenets of Goldwater Conservatism. Puh-leeze.
There can be a civil political debate in this country if we would just stop subscribing to the sensationalism of Cable News networks and tabloid journalism. FOX News is a complete joke not to mention an insult to our collective intelligence. MSNBC is the DNC Channel for dummies and CNN is trying to stem the erosion of viewership but isn't having a good time doing it.
If there are any young citizens checking out Blogcritics who are unsure about the direction of this country, I urge you to refer to history. Go to the library, read some old newspapers. Learn how Americans once derived their information. Get on the Internet. Search. Ask. Explore. Feel free to seek counsel of those who are older and ask for an honest assessment of what they've been through. You see, in the privacy of our homes, you may hear a different tale than that which is repeated for public consumption.
We live in a 30 second sound bite culture. Our newspapers are thinner than the tissue paper used to wrap the expensive useless presents we buy. People Magazine and The National Enquirer are the news sources of choice for far too many Americans. And, my friends, we did this to ourselves. We bred these generations and now it's time for us to undo the damage.
47 - Dave Nalle
Bliffle, even if you reject the idea of a corporation as a person, it is still an organization which represents the interests of people -- its stockholders -- who can assign it the authority to speak on their behalf, in which case it should enjoy all of the protections that they would when exercising free speech.
There's no functional difference between a corporation and a union and an interest group like the NRDC or AARP. All of them are entitled to free speech and should be allowed to spend money on behalf of their constituents.
dAve
48 - Silas Kain
There's no functional difference between a corporation and a union and an interest group like the NRDC or AARP. All of them are entitled to free speech and should be allowed to spend money on behalf of their constituents.
I totally agree, Dave. Let them spend all the money they want. Let them go broke. Congress will legislate a bailout bill and Barack Obama will sign it.
49 - Clavos
Silas,
My first vote was in the 1964 election. I was in basic training in the Army at the time, got my absentee ballot sent from Florida, filled it out, and took it to my company commander, a VERY young, brand new Lt., to be countersigned (like a notarization -- required by Florida law at the time). He, unlawfully -- but he was the CO and I was recruit -- looked to see who I was voting for.
He looked up at me and said, "What are you, crazy? You're voting for Goldwater?? Don't you know that if you vote for Goldwater, you'll wind up in Vietnam???
I didn't change my vote, despite the Lt.'s diatribe.
And you know what? He was absolutely right -- a year later, I was in Vietnam!
50 - Bliffle
Dave:
"...even if you reject the idea of a corporation as a person, it is still an organization which represents the interests of people -- its stockholders -- who can assign it the authority to speak on their behalf,..."
Except that the officers who compose the agenda dictate to stockholders what they are going to promote, even in the face of strong opposition by shareholders.
That assignment of authority is coerced from shareholders the same as the surrender of intellectual property is coerced from employees.
"... in which case it should enjoy all of the protections that they would when exercising free speech."
What a joke: they suppress free speech at shareholders meetings to coerce compliance with views that they (the execs) see as favorable to themselves (without necessarily even being beneficial to the corp itself) and then they demand 'free speech' for their views, and through the magic transformation of money into 'free speech' are able to bribe politicians!
51 - Silas Kain
Clav,
I cast my first Presidential vote in 1976 at which time I voted for Gerald Rudolph Ford. In 1980 and 1984, I proudly voted for Ronald Reagan. I have no regrets for all three ballots. Isn't it amazing how far we've come since 1964? We've come so far, yet we've learned nothing in the process.
52 - Clavos
Depressing, isn't it, Silas.
53 - The Obnoxious American
First off, as a kid who grew up in an inner city slum, I can speak with first hand knowledge that YES, people choose their own destiny. What is to stop any kid from any slum anywhere from getting a job, even an entry level one like I did, and working their way up? To suggest that in free, capitalist America, some invisible GOP boot is holding people down, or to say I've earned a place in hell for making the exact same case for individual responsibility that even Barack Obama himself has made at times, is the most absurd thing I've heard all year.
To call me far far far right is even more absurd. I guess if you're comparing me to some of the straight up, American hating commies in this thread, then yeah, I'm far right. But given a cross section of American voters, I'm smack dab in the middle. The vaunted Independent, which is how I am registered incidentally.
Maybe EU's poor are better off than here. I doubt it but I'll grant you that it's probably a slim difference in any case. So friggin what? Do you want the European economy? Do you realize that the EU countries have been MOVING AWAY from the direction we're headed? Ever ask yourself why? Europeans think we're INSANE for cap and trade, they think we're nuts for trashing our health care system. Leaders of these nations have cautioned Obama on his path. So what the hell are you talking about exactly?
Blame the messenger, go for it. You're viewpoint is exactly what is wrong with America today. I can still remember when most Americans felt that if you wanted to acheive something you should get off your butt and make it happen. No more. These days, thanks to the likes of those in this thread, people need to get off their butts and head to the government cheese line. Disgusting doesn't even describe it.
54 - Glenn Contrarian
OA -
I've heard this one before, too, from my neo-con friend.
So that is your statement:
Kids CHOOSE to grow up in inner-city slums.
Kids CHOOSE to go to some of the worst schools in the nation.
Kids CHOOSE to join gangs (even though the choice is "join or die!")
Kids CHOOSE to not get a good education.
Kids CHOOSE to have parents who can't ensure they get a good education.
OA, maybe you did work your way out of poverty...but you know what? You're the exception to the rule...and because you did it, you can't see any reason why everyone else can't do it.
Everybody else ain't you - and many of them face challenges that you likely haven't faced. For instance - are you white? Try going to a make-up artist and becoming black for a week and see the difference in how whites treat you. If you're going to claim there's no difference, then you're simply showing your ignorance.
55 - Arch Conservative
OA it's no use arguing with people whose capacity to make excuses for others refusal to take responsibility for their own lives is boundless.
We're becoming of infantilized whiney little pussies. All blaming society and waiting for the next government handout.
Everyone's got a sad story. Everyone's a victim of society. It's impossible for anyone whose experienced alittle adversity in their life to succeed.
Oh.........woe is me.
More than any one political or social issue that is my biggest gripe with the cancerous liberal moonbat ideology that currently afflicts our society........that they expect so fucking little of people.