Bye-bye, Miss American Pie. You had your chance, your golden opportunity, but you squandered it.
The 2008 presidential election was won on the “hope & change” slogan, and thus far the prediction has been half-right.…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
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— go to most recent comments176 - Cindy
Roger,
Do you think it's possible to escape the influence of our own lives on what we do and think and create?
177 - roger nowosielski
I beg to differ, especially when it comes to artists of renown. Whatever relations or personal idiosyncrasies at work, we should expect them to be internalized in the text, and, if anything, subject to exegesis. Treat the text as a whole. And only afterwards, other resources may be brought to bear - such as personal histories, etc - either as a matter of last recourse or as additional analytical tools.
178 - Mark
So, Rog, you're saying that there is a 'correct' way to approach the texts in order to 'understand' them. I doubt it.
179 - roger nowosielski
I'm not arguing or saying that it is. But if there's anything, a medium that is, through which we can transcend, it is only art. So yes, in that unique sense it just may be possible.
That's why I think Kant's concept of "the sublime," and the aesthetic of the sublime, is an important one, precisely because it affords a kind of transcendence, the only kind of transcendence possible.
180 - roger nowosielski
Mark,
I never argued for any "correct" way. I'm only saying that to understand or try to understand a text, you've got to start with the text. And then take it as far as it will take you.
181 - Cindy
What do you mean their renown? If they are renowned that means you know something about them, right? But if one doesn't know anything about them how is their renown of importance?
So, unless 'especially' refers to something like they are 'special' and the rules don't apply to them as apply to mere mortals, then you give away that by renowned you mean you know their history.
Am I mistaken?
182 - roger nowosielski
What I mean, Cindy, is that people like Proust, Joyce, Beckett and Flaubert have become established as literary giants. So all I'm simply saying is that I owe it to them, if only by virtue of their reputation, to treat their texts as complete and perfect. ("Perfect" means complete in the sense I'm using.)
Just a digression. Do we need to know much about Shakespeare's personal life (actually, very little by way of his personal life is known) in order to study and appreciate his plays? What other, extraneous information do we really need?
I believe Clavos should be able to chip in as well.
183 - Mark
Does an understanding of the hypothesized historical Shakespeare's relationship with the English Court aid in the study and appreciation of the plays? For me, you betcha.
184 - Cindy
Roger,
I am not sure about any of that. But if you say something can be gotten out of it. I'll give it a try, for now.
185 - Cindy
Personally, I usually sit with difficult text and look up everything I don't understand, including biographical info. When I don't do this, the text tends to amount to whatever of my own thinking I project onto it--rather than the author's meaning.
186 - roger nowosielski
The last part is just fine. That's what "interacting with the text" means. You are supposed to bring your own thoughts and personal experiences to bear.
Whoever said there's anything wrong with that? How else are we supposed to read?
187 - roger nowosielski
Mark,
But only as a secondary, more refined analysis, if one ever gets that far. Don't you think?
188 - roger nowosielski
I don't mean to imply by any of this that texts are ahistorical. Far from it. For an example, look up a parable by Borges, "Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote," in Labyrinths or Ficciones.
189 - roger nowosielski
Let me qualify. Does it help knowing something or other about the historical period, the nature of theater in Elizabethan England, or the historical times in which Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides have lived. Of course it does. The last example is a point in case: so much had changed in Greece over the matter of one or two generations, from early Aeschylus's days to Euripides, that in a sense one would be at a great loss trying to understand the evolution of the tragedy and tragic plays (they were all trilogies at first with a satyr play at the end - a happy ending as it were) over the short timespan - from heroic and upbeat to downright pessimistic. And the form has changed too. So yes, these are important things to know, and if and when I read about that first, it's because of my interest. So sure, those are aids to understand the text. But there's still the text to be dealt with - even once you have the context, a historical context if you like.
190 - Mark
Unless accepting the story/narrative of the perfect text replete with meaning is critical to whatever case you're making, I suggest we move on. To me, talking about it begs the postmodernist question.
191 - roger nowosielski
I agree. I don't remember exactly how we got detoured, except perhaps by the notion that artistic expression (work of art) offers one, however limited, way of transcendence.
I suppose I'm still yearning, however subliminally, for some great metanarrative, though I've been convinced, I believe, that I shouldn't hope for any. So it is an existential dilemma I'm facing and have to resolve, not a philosophical one.
This has been helpful.
192 - Cindy
Roger, I was looking up 'diegetic diachrony' and I found your text if that helps. Postmodernism: Foundational Essays by Victor E. Taylor, Charles E. Winquist
193 - Cindy
Wow, I think I understand what Roger said in 191. (without looking anything up) I like this. :-)
194 - roger nowosielski
I'm glad you looked it up. I was processing wholesale. Thank you for your research. It is a dense text, and everything will be of help.
195 - roger nowosielski
What that means, Cindy, you're getting the hang of the basic concepts. Soon enough, we shall have a meaningful discussion going.
196 - roger nowosielski
Let me close, Cindy and Mark, on the following rather poignant quote:
In the course of the past fifty years, each grand narrative of emancipation - regardless of the genre it privileges - has, as it were, had its principle invalidated. All that is real is rational, all that is rational is real: "Auschwitz refutes the speculative doctrine. At least this crime, which is real, is not rational. All that is proletarian is communist, all that is communist is proletarian: "Berlin 1953," "Budapest 1956," "Czechoslovakia 1968," "Poland 1980" (to name but a few) refute the doctrine of historical materialism: the workers rise up against the Party. All that is democratic is by the people and for the people, and vice versa: "May 1968" refutes the doctrine of parliamentary liberalism. Everyday society brings the representative institution to a halt. Everything that promotes the free flow of supply and demand is good for general prosperity, and vice versa: the "crisis of 1911 and 1929" [he's not aware of the present one] refute the doctrine of economic liberalism, and the "crisis of 1974-79" refutes the post-Keynesian modification of that doctrine. [There's no account here of the failure of the Christian/religious doctrine of redemption and salvation, but it's elsewhere.]
"Missive on Universal History," in The Postmodern Explained (for children), Lyotard.
On that note, let me bid you two good night. To be resumed tomorrow.
197 - Cindy
Roger,
I read the essay, one time through. Do you have any thoughts to start?
198 - roger nowosielski
Why don't you make some notes (to yourself) and let me reread it again. I think it would be better if you took the lead (for the time being at least), since I suspect you might find it more problematic than I. Once we identify areas of interest, we could move on from there.
So how about tomorrow afternoon, OK? (Have got to do my share of reading in the AM while I'm still fresh.)
199 - Mark
I went to the public library to check out those five missing pages and found that not only does Taos' library have two copies of Eco's book, but both are checked out. I am led to wonder what kind of a place this is.
200 - Cindy
(obviously the place is chock full of weirdos)
:-)
201 - roger nowosielski
I thought you were kidding about those missing pages, Mark. If you have a title, I have a hard copy and so does Cindy.
202 - roger nowosielski
I've got it now: you're missing 294-307. I'll transmit once I get my scanner going.
203 - Mark
quel
204 - Cindy
My library, on the other hand, almost never has anything I want to read (unless it's fiction).
Forget about my library. The books stores almost never have anything I ever go in to find. (I was stunned that the Chomsky-Foucault Debate was there.
But I did find something that seems very interesting. Have you ever read Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari's Anti-Oedipus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia
It has a compelling preface by Foucault.
205 - roger nowosielski
Enough "philosophy" for today. I'm gonna finish "Kickboxer 3" movie.
Au revoir, les enfants.
206 - roger nowosielski
Anti-Oedipus is a classic. I'll give you a two-line gist tomorrow. Now I'm checking out for good.
207 - Mark
Cindy, I haven't read it. Sounds interesting.
208 - Cindy
Mark,
Here is a link with a 'review/introduction' and a further link to the preface.
209 - Mark
Gracias.
210 - Cindy
Roger,
If you don't get to your scanner very soon. I can always scan the pages at work. I really thought Mark made the link for other people.
211 - roger nowosielski
My point is being able to transmit items of interest. I have an HP JetScanner - just a matter of getting the software which I misplaced. I'll jump on it tomorrow. Meanwhile, there's enough on the burner.
212 - Mark
On second thought, maybe not quel; it might not be a good idea to transmit pages from Eco's book using BC. Not to worry, though. Google gave me enough of the book to get a feel for Eco's presentation of the problem. A relevant quote or two from the missing pages will probably suffice if the conversation goes there.
213 - Cindy
We just send them via email, as an attachment.
214 - Mark
Ahhh...a conspiracy, huh?
In that case, I'm missing pgs 243, 249, 250, 254 and 256 from the 1986 Harcourt edition.
215 - Mark
(Cindy, I avoid new books where possible. If I have to buy, I can usually find what I need at one of Albuquerque's fine used book stores. Even newly written books show up pretty quickly. The problem is coming up with an excuse to drive to the 'big' city.)
216 - Cindy
The big city. :-)
I usually try to avoid new books too. But, it's amazing how many books I like in the $4 bin at Borders. I have to buy used on the internet, as there are no more used bookshops closer than Albuquerque to me either. :-) (I got the Eco book, used/like new for $1.45 +$3.99 shipping)
217 - Mark
hmmm...maybe I should give Amazon's used books another try. After a couple of problems (especially waiting an exorbitant amount of time for delivery) I gave up on them.
218 - Mark
(Besides, the smell of used books en mass reminds me of my misguided youth, much of which was spent in stacks...attempts a smiley thing, but fails again)
219 - Cindy
lol, one day a smiley will appear as if by magic. :-)
I spent 17-30 collecting books (mostly from used book shops) as I always wanted my own library. Then I decided, since the world didn't work the way I thought, I didn't need them any more. And I packed them up and stored them. At 44 I gave almost all of them away.
(I started to collect rare book and first editions though. I have all of them.)
Now I am working on a new and improved reading library.
220 - Cindy
Roger,
I am e-mailing you a link to HP where you can download your printer software for free, if you like. Akismet reads the link as spam.
221 - roger nowosielski
Got it, Cindy. I have a site too, from HP. In between the two of them, something should work. Meanwhile, I'm ready for interrogation if you're game.
222 - Cindy
I still have to read it a few more times. So, it is still unclear.
What does he mean by this:
p244. "I'm not sure that we can say that a given language is a device of power..."
device vs model
What does he mean?
223 - roger nowosielski
Good question.
I think the idea why he shies from identifying it as such would commit him to enumerating a whole bunch of other devices - aside from language. But Eco, being a semiologist, would be inclined to think that there is no other form of symbolic interaction among humans other that by means of language (and that would include all extensions of human communications which can be said to derive from language, "body language," for example).
224 - roger nowosielski
BTW, I had to order a scanner. My model was too old; the software wouldn't be compatible with my operating system. Any day now, and we're in business, Mark included.
225 - Cindy
I don't get it.