Some people will never accept that humans are playing our part in climate change, because of petty partisan politics, or because of their own selfish interests. However, Bush has basically conceded the point, although is unwilling to move from his beligerant position on the issue. Quite obviously with Exxon Mobil whispering in his ear he isn't likely to change his stance anytime soon. The Los Angeles Times reports:…
Article comments
26 - andy marsh
I suppose he could. but I didn't vote for him for his stance on Kyoto...I had other things on my mind at the time...
I don't even recall it being an issue...at least not one I gave a damn about...Kyoto was a bad idea and it still is a bad idea...
I can't help you on Bush's plan...I never heard about it in the first place.
27 - Maurice
JR
maybe you spent too much time sniffing CFCs. Just kidding. CFCs are considered inert and are very stable. This would explain why you could smell them. Please explain how you think they could be pushed miles into the air.
28 - JR
Please explain how you think they could be pushed miles into the air.
The same way water is pushed miles into the air.
29 - Phillip Winn
Dave, the link you provided lists GDP numbers, but not tied in any way to pollution numbers.
Also, the chart is on a logarithmic scale, so while it seems like a little tiny short gap between the USA and China, it is in fact nearly double, and nearly three times as much as Japan.
So next we should be able to track down carbon emissions by country, right?
Given that China was a sticking point for Clinton and Bush, but has voluntarily classified itself as a tier one country, I'm very curious indeed to see what their carbon emissions might be.
30 - Dave Nalle
>>Dave, the link you provided lists GDP numbers, but not tied in any way to pollution numbers.<<
Actually, the app there allows you to cross index up to three statistics and have them compared, so I compared GDP and CO2 emissions.
>>Also, the chart is on a logarithmic scale, so while it seems like a little tiny short gap between the USA and China, it is in fact nearly double, and nearly three times as much as Japan.<<
I didn't do Japan when I did it, just China and India and as far as I could tell there's no logrithmic scale involved, I got a straight numerical comparison as my result, which showed china only a few percent behind the US and Japan a few percent behind them.
>>So next we should be able to track down carbon emissions by country, right?<<
The link I provided has that info.
>>Given that China was a sticking point for Clinton and Bush, but has voluntarily classified itself as a tier one country, I'm very curious indeed to see what their carbon emissions might be.<<
In 2003 it was about 4000 million metric tons, compared to the US's 5500.
Dave
31 - Phillip Winn
Non-subscribers see only a chart listing government corruption tied to GDP, with no other options.
Do you have a non-subscription source?
32 - Maurice
JR
water is not pushed into the air. Water vapor is a gas that is lighter than air and is pushed up by heavier air. CFCs are already in their gaseous state and are heavier than air. There is no record of CFCs being found 40 miles up where the ozone layer is.
The whole ozone depletion theory requires a lot of blind faith - much like any other religion.
33 - Omni Temporal
Maurice, JR is correct about the CFCs. Your way of thinking about it makes some sense, i.e., if a CFC molecule is heavier than, and if it is produced near the Earth's surface, then there should be no way for CFCs to reach the stratosphere. But that's not the whole story. Since CFCs are so stable, they have long lifetimes, and can thoroughly mix with the rest of the atmosphere, and can be carried to great heights by air currents. When they get high enough, UV radiation dissociates CFC (breaks it apart), releasing chlorine, which attacks ozone.
34 - JR
water is not pushed into the air. Water vapor is a gas that is lighter than air and is pushed up by heavier air. CFCs are already in their gaseous state and are heavier than air.
Gases mix, and their constituent molecules can end up anywhere in a given container (something to do with entropy). If the container is the atmosphere, any molecule can eventually reach any part of the atmosphere. (Some molecules will even leave the atmosphere.) Once mixed, the "weight" of a gas is not all that relevant. That's (one reason) why the atmosphere does not consist of a carbon dioxide layer sitting on top of a nitrogen layer sitting on top of an oxygen layer, etc (leaving us at the bottom sucking in pure radon).
Water vapor mixes with the atmosphere, but at different temperatures and pressure can recondense and still stay aloft. Or don't you believe in clouds?
Dust and pollen are not even converted to gas, and yet they can still be picked up and carried by the atmosphere across oceans.
CFCs, by the way, are often (usually?) used in liquid form, such as when they are used as refrigerants and as cleansing agents for electronics. They are indeed more volatile than water, which is why they so easily enter the atmosphere. The businesses who used CFCs didn't want their chemicals evaporating away, forcing them to buy more; there just wasn't a whole lot they could do about it.
CFCs also do not need to be "superheated" to dissociate. All it takes is the right wavelength of UV radiation to break the relevant chemical bonds. There is no shortage of UV radiation in the upper atmosphere.
There is no record of CFCs being found 40 miles up where the ozone layer is.
Oh really? You've looked through the entire body of scientific literature? How did you miss all the stuff on basic chemistry?
35 - Maurice
Provide one from the 'entire body'.
36 - Omni Temporal
The ozone layer is not 40 miles above the surface:
Milli, Tyler. Environmental Science. California: Wadson, 1995: 213.
"ozone layer, between 17 and 26 km (11-16 miles) above sea level"
17 - 26 km
Bookshelf 94 Encyclopedia. Ozone Layer. New York: Columbia University, 1994.
"ozone, located at altitude of 12-30 mi (19-48 km) above the earth's surface"
19 - 48 km
Gutnik, Martin. The Greenhouse Effect. Connecticut: Millbrook, 1991: 11.
"ozone layer, extends from 10 to 40 miles above the Earth's surface"
16 - 64 km
Climate Monitoring and Diagnostics Laboratory, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
[max. 15 km]
15 km
Baines, John. Concerning the Atmosphere.Texas: Stech-Vaught, 1989: 30.
"10-13 miles above the surface of the earth there is a narrow layer less than a few miles thick"
16 - 21 km
------------------------------------------
Here's "one from the entire body."
J.W. Elkins, et al., American Geophysical Union, May 2005
"Trace Gas Trends in the Stratosphere: 1991-2005"
The first NOAA airborne gas chromatograph measured chlorofluorocarbon-11 (CFC-11) and CFC-113 during the Arctic Airborne Stratospheric Experiment in 1991-1992. In 1994, we added nitrous oxide (N2O), sulfur hexafluoride (SF6), CFC-12, halon-1211, methyl chloroform, carbon tetrachloride, methane, and hydrogen. NOAA scientists have since operated five airborne gas chromatographs on NASA airborne platforms, including the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) balloon gondola and ER-2, WB-57F, DC-8, and NASA Altair Unmanned Air Vehicle (UAV) aircraft. Using these in situ measurements and tracer-tracer correlations from flask observations for the unmeasured halogen species (HCFCs and methyl halides including methyl chloride and bromide), we have estimated trends of total chlorine and bromine in the stratosphere. The determination of inorganic equivalent chlorine (Cl + 45*Br) requires the trend of tropospheric equivalent chlorine and the mean age of the parcel of stratospheric air. In general, there is good agreement between the mean age of the air mass calculations using carbon dioxide and SF6, except for regions of extreme down welling of mesospheric air where SF6 is consumed. Tropospheric trends of the methyl halides have been compiled against stable standards. We operated a airborne gas chromatograph on the Sage 3 Ozone Loss Validation Experiment (SOLVE-II) mission from Kiruna, Sweden during 2002. It measured the major HCFCs and methyl halides, so that these compounds do not have to be estimated from tracer-tracer correlations in the future. In 2005, we have added a new lightweight airborne instrument (<25 kg) that can measure CFC-11, CFC-12, halon-1211, SF6, N2O, and ozone. This instrument can operate on small or UAV aircraft and will be used for Aura satellite validation. This presentation will show trends for selected trace gases and our estimates of total equivalent chlorine stratospheric trends since 1991.
From now on, do your own homework.
37 - Dave Nalle
>>The ozone layer is not 40 miles above the surface:
...
Gutnik, Martin. The Greenhouse Effect. Connecticut: Millbrook, 1991: 11.
"ozone layer, extends from 10 to 40 miles above the Earth's surface"<<
So, it's not 40 miles above the earth's surface, except where it's 40 miles above the earth's surface.
Dave
38 - Omni Temporal
Brilliant Dave! You're aptitude with big numbers is astonishing. What kind of calculator do you have? That's some really heavy thinking you've done there. You're making all the other C students really proud.
Now, why don't you apply the full breadth and depth of your matchless knowledge to this statement:
Everybody is 60 years old.
That's what people call an analogy. Are you familiar with that concept? Look it up if you have to. It's under A in that big fat book called a dictionary. You can borrow one from somebody. Try not to spill beer all over it.
39 - Dave Nalle
That's not called math, dumbass, it's called sarcasm.
Dave
40 - Omni Temporal
Aw, Dave. Now you're all mad. Kind of a sensitive guy, aren't you?