In tonight's speech President Bush charted the 'rational middle' course for a balanced solution to the problems of illegal immigration.
Confirming many of us in our belief that President Bush is at heart a rational moderate, tonight he outlined a plan for immigration which addresses the nation's border security concerns, our need for immigrant labor, and our tradition of welcoming those who want to live and work and become American citizens. What he expressed in his speech tonight was essentially the plan which Senator McCain and others had put together a few weeks ago in the Congress, but which was narrowly voted down. Perhaps now, with this unambiguous presidential endorsement the plan will pass as it should have the first time.…
Article comments
76 - zingzing
"segregation isn't a bad thing"
what? first of all, i never said anything like that. so you aren't paraphrasing me... you're sticking a different word in front of a phrase i used. and second, what?
rome, eh... i thought that was the barbarian invasion and them stretching their military and infrastructure too far to maintain... but i will look up whether or not there was immigration into rome, and what effect it produced... still...
let's see some evidence from modern times... you know, like after the plague or something.
77 - Richard Brodie
Dave says: Again, did you not see the speech? Did you not read this article. They WILL be screened. Bush said it specificially. The undesirable ones will be ejected and the good ones get to stay.
But I'm quite sure that by "undesirable" he merely means not criminally inclined, overtly seditious, etc. I'm certain that NONE of the tens of millions of Mexicans in question will be held to the same SKILL LEVEL requirements that applicants from every other third world country are, precisely in order to prevent half of their populations from being let in.
In other words Mexico will be escorted to the the front of the line, ahead of respectful people from ALL OTHER COUNTRIES, by being given a special discriminatory exemption from requirements imposed on those who have NOT thumbed their noses at our immigration law and have not violated our borders, i.e. our national sovereignty.
78 - zingzing
actually, it looks like immigration is what kept rome alive for so long. rome supported itself by conquering other lands. rome supported its military by offering citizenship to any immigrants who would fight for rome.
79 - DrPat
Interesting (however much I agree with the argument that "illegal immigrants should not be given a pass to the front of the legalization line") that economic arguments against condoning illegal-immigrant labor echo wierdly the arguments against outsourcing labor.
"Artificially depress wages" - Yep, whether the cheap foreign labor still resides in their own country, or illegally crosses into the US, access to workers willing to accept much lower wages does have that effect. And the principal group that is impacted in this case is NOT black Americans, but second-generation Hispanic-American citizens, and legal immigrants from the countries who supply the illegal ones. Their efforts to rise are thwarted by the relative lack of jobs at other than the depressed wages acceptable to illegal immigrants.
"Steal American Jobs" - This is a reverse echo of "jobs no American will do", but it resounds nonetheless. Either way, jobs taken by illegal immigrants are just as inaccessible to American citizens and other legal residents as those exported to India, Hong Kong -- or Mexico.
I also find it very interesting that people who would not tolerate sweatshop labor at pittance wages in an American company (here or overseas) will argue for drastically underpaying illegal immigrant labor -- and remember, only around 25% of agricultural labor is provided by illegal immigrants.
80 - Dave Nalle
But I'm quite sure that by "undesirable" he merely means not criminally inclined, overtly seditious, etc.
On this I'm sure you are correct.
I'm certain that NONE of the tens of millions of Mexicans in question will be held to the same SKILL LEVEL requirements that applicants from every other third world country are, precisely in order to prevent half of their populations from being let in.
Have you ever been to Washington DC or other major east coast cities and taken a cab or checked into a hotel? Those jobs are being done by African immigrants who have been let in under hardship status over the last decade. That's all relatively unskilled labor, and they were moved to the head of the line. This is not unprecedented.
In addition, we NEED low-skill workers. Your nonsensical argument is the same as the Nativists who set up the original immigration quota system which never worked right - where there were 500,000 slots for immigrants from western Europe and a tenth as many applied. People with skills from modern industrialized nations don't want or need to come to America in the same numbers, and we don't particularly want or need them either. We need good, reliable low-skill workers to do the jobs that need doing and keep wages down and inflation under control.
The white European people you want to put at the front of your immigration line will NEVER have trouble getting into the country or getting a good job somewhere else, plus they don't want to come in particularly large numbers or want to do the jobs we have available.
Dave
81 - Dave Nalle
I also find it very interesting that people who would not tolerate sweatshop labor at pittance wages in an American company (here or overseas) will argue for drastically underpaying illegal immigrant labor -- and remember, only around 25% of agricultural labor is provided by illegal immigrants.
Most illegals who come here are not paid sweatshop wages. Under no circumstances can $12 an hour be considered a sweatshop wage. On average they earn no less than 80% of what natives earn in comparable jobs, and quite frequently they earn the same salary for the same work. And those ones who work at a reduced wage as migrant farm workers are mostly here legally and working at a legally set lower minimum wage.
Dave
82 - Richard Brodie
We need good, reliable low-skill workers to do the jobs that need doing and keep wages down
Yeah, let's keep wages down (at least low-end and middle-class wages), while at the same time PRICES continue to spiral out of control. In other words give poor Mexicans a chance at a better life, by insuring an ever worsening life for American citizens.
83 - Dave Nalle
Richard, prices aren't spiralling out of control. What planet do you live on? We have very low inflation here in the US. One reason for that is that we outsource and employ illegals to keep certain labor costs reasonable - not ultra-low and still a livable wage, but we prevent excessive wage inflation in vital areas like construction and service industries and other labor-intensive work. Regardless of what you may think in your bizarro world, this is good for American consumers, especially those of us who are native to the country, have a high-school education and can read and write English, because our buck goes farther at WalMart and we can still earn a decent wage because the company we work for hasn't been forced out of business by overseas competition.
Dave
84 - shArk
Dear Davey,
"What planet do you live on?" --- is currently a banned cliche.
Please find a replacement phrase that is somewhat original or creative.
Muchas Gracias,
Shark, your editor
85 - Christopher Rose
Was that really Richard Brodie? I've not seen him make a basic error of English before.
Shouldn't his last line read "by ensuring" not "insuring"? Unless there is a new policy I've not heard of!
Insuring; policy: get it? lol
And shArk, I wish you had a blog...
86 - Dave Nalle
Christopher, Americans routinely use insuring in place of ensuring and I'm not sure it's considered an error anymore.
Shark, from now on I'll replace 'what planet do you live on' with 'good lord man, do you live in the same delusional alternate dimension as Shark?'
Dave
87 - Christopher Rose
There have been many great additions to the English language made in America. This one, which I hadn't come across before, seems like one of the less useful ones.
88 - Christopher Rose
And I wouldn't go around assuming too much about which slice of reality is the alternative dimension. There can't be many folk in the USA living in a walled compound.
What's your strategy for resisting a siege by the way?
89 - RedTard
The speech was probably good for his numbers but was also completely meaningless. What good do guards do if you set up a massive guest worker program?
Mexicans will just grab a guest card and walk right past your silly guardsmen then ditch the card and stay here.
Let's consider why the dems love illegal immigration so much.
a) It drives up salaries creating a 'living wage' for more Americans increasing the size of the middle class, all things held dear by the unions that support them.
b) Squeezing as many warm bodies into an area of land as is possible is great for the environment, conserves natural resources, and lowers pollution, great for the greens!.
c) Having different geographical regions inside a country with different languages, cultures, and religions has been a recipe for harmony throughout history and is a model that should be brought here.
d) It creates racial tensions which allows them to play the race card to gain votes and give the finger to the much hated 'WASP's' (the world was must have been a great place before western civilization)
Answer: The leftists know that bringing in another poor minority will gain them votes and continue to allow them to play the race card. (reread the above posts and see how many stupid fucks claimed that anyone who was against unchecked immigration is a racist)
Greed and false hope that they can somehow score some of the votes from the hard working immigrants cause republicans to join in the folly. They are absolutely wrong though. The left will turn mexican immigrants into angry democrat-voting victims soon enough.
It's way easier to believe the leftist lie that you're not as materially successful in life because of a racist and class based discrimination than to believe it's because of your own inactions and lack of motivation, education, or ability. (far more often the case)
That lie works time and time again though and Nalle's a lunatic to think this is any different. A near 50% dropout rate for Mexican immigrants combined with the fact that they come here with nothing IS creating an underclass which, unlike blacks, will have the voting power to seriously change this country.
90 - Richard Brodie
prices aren't spiralling out of control.
You must bicycle to work - and we haven't even yet seen the full impact of a 50% rise in gasoline prices in two months time, on the costs of ALL goods and services.
What planet do you live on?
One where my parents were able to send me through Stanford for $2,000 a year - their total cost for my Ivy League Bachelor's Degree: $8,000 - and where, a mere 40 years later, the same thing would cost me $30,000 a year, or $120,000 for EACH of my 8 children. Please tell me how regarding THAT as out of control is "delusional". At that rate of increase, MY children will be looking at just under HALF A MILLION dollars A YEAR to educate THEIR children! To me, the fact that you DON'T regard that as out of control, is what is truly bizarre.
excessive wage inflation
I will not defend my error in using "insure" where I ought to have written "ensure". My bad, Chris, and thanks for pointing it out - same goes for my earlier inaccurate use of "paraphase." (apologies to zing) The effect that such a massive influx of non-English speaking immigrants will have on the corruption of the language is another topic. But while we are discussing terminolgy, wouldn't "increases" be more appropriate than "inflation" in this context? - setting down can-opener, as worms begin to crawl out :)
we can still earn a decent wage because the company we work for hasn't been forced out of business by overseas competition
and maybe because our job in that company has not yet been outsourced "to keep certain labor costs reasonable"?
In the absence of a strong isolationist candidate, I think that I, a person who have never voted Democratic in my life, would almost rather have another Clinton (gag!) in the White House, in preference to a globalist, incurable entangling alliance making Republican like Bush.
91 - MCH
"What's your strategy for resisting a siege by the way?"
Well, he could always post his photograph around the perimeter.
92 - Bliffle
The last time I chased down 'insure' vs. 'ensure' a few years ago the modern dictionaries proclaimed them synonomous because of Common Usage. I think that's a copout. 'Ensure' is a pro-active attempt to assure a certain outcome, but 'insure' is a passive contract to indemnify a loser. Well, that's the way I see it, anyhow. YMMV.
93 - Dave Nalle
You must bicycle to work - and we haven't even yet seen the full impact of a 50% rise in gasoline prices in two months time, on the costs of ALL goods and services.
Gas prices have been at an inflated level for over a year. During that time we've had record low inflation. The rise int he last two months only brings prices back to where they were at the end of last summer, so it's irrelevant. Plus the price has fluctuated. It actually dropped significantly in the last two weeks.
What planet do you live on?
One where my parents were able to send me through Stanford for $2,000 a year - their total cost for my Ivy League Bachelor's Degree: $8,000
Ah, so it IS a different planet. Here on earth Stanford isn't part of the Ivy LEague, though it's a fine university of comparable quality.
- and where, a mere 40 years later, the same thing would cost me $30,000 a year, or $120,000 for EACH of my 8 children. Please tell me how regarding THAT as out of control is "delusional". At that rate of increase, MY children will be looking at just under HALF A MILLION dollars A YEAR to educate THEIR children! To me, the fact that you DON'T regard that as out of control, is what is truly bizarre.
A top-school education is only one of thousands of factors in the economy, and while prices at Stanford or actual Ivy League schools have gone up dramatically, prices at public universities have in many cases lagged behind inflation over that same 40 year period.
we can still earn a decent wage because the company we work for hasn't been forced out of business by overseas competition
Yes we can. Because those companies have stayed in business by taking advantage of cheap foreign labor, keeping the best jobs here in the US and reducing costs by sending the scut work overseas.
and maybe because our job in that company has not yet been outsourced "to keep certain labor costs reasonable"?
Except that they only outsource certain sorts of jobs, and outsourcing usually results in increasing the number of higher paying jobs as the company expands and becomes more profitable because of responsible and efficient management.
Dave
94 - Richard Brodie
'Ensure' is a pro-active attempt to assure a certain outcome, but 'insure' is a passive contract to indemnify a loser.
But the decision and action to purchase an INsurance contract are pro-active, and conversely non-legal "attempts to assure a certain outcome" can involve both pro-active and passive aspects. So I would rather differentiate strictly on the basis of contractual vs. non-contractual. All forms of insuring are ways to ensure, but not the other way around.
Perhaps the license for confusing these terms comes from the fact that 'enquire' and 'inquire' really are completely synonymous. I would favor dropping the former from the language altogether,
since most variant forms, like 'inquisition', 'inquest', 'inquisitive', etc. do not have an 'en-' alternative. About the only exception is 'enquirer', which a lot of newspapers unfortunately use in their titles, but too bad for them!
95 - Richard Brodie
prices at Stanford or actual Ivy League schools have gone up dramatically
Dramatically? Why are you so afraid to use the term "out of control"? Oh, I know, we must not ever say anything that implies that the BUSH administration does not have everything perfectly well under control. So if a several thousand percent increase in a mere two generations is not out of control, what would be? You'd still be trying to justify it if it were a million per-cent.
In place like Zimbabwe, where a loaf of bread costs millions of dollars, at least WAGES have also risen into the millions of dollars per week. The peculiar genius of American inflation, is that it is only PRICES that go up, not wages. For example, if you go back to the point in time when gasoline was HALF as expensive as it is now, I highly doubt that you would see that wages are now TWICE what they were then.
It isn't just the economy that Bush has allowed to get out of control, primarily as a result of his astronomically expensive nation-building military adventurism. He is also doing nothing to prevent our population from growing out of control. By giving amnesty to 10 or 20 million Mexican illegals, who will then in turn be in a position to sponsor 50 to 100 million of their relatives, he is sabotaging not only the American middle class, but also the Republican party. For it is the welfare- and multiculturalist-friendly Democrats whom the new Hispanic American majority will be voting for.
96 - Dave Nalle
Dramatically? Why are you so afraid to use the term "out of control"? Oh, I know, we must not ever say anything that implies that the BUSH administration does not have everything perfectly well under control. So if a several thousand percent increase in a mere two generations is not out of control, what would be? You'd still be trying to justify it if it were a million per-cent.
It's private enterprise. It's not supposed to BE controlled. And this has nothing to do with the Bush administration. These tuition rates started going up well before Bush took office and haven't gone up any faster in the last few years than they did before - in fact they have gone up in several spurts in the 70s and 80s. This isn't an issue to take up with the administration, but with the individual universities who have raised their prices so high.
Plus I'm not sure the inflation in this area is as out of control as you suggest. Currently the average cost per year at a public college is about $4700. When I attended a public University in the early 80s I paid $2000 a year. That's an increase averaging 9% per year. The current average cost for a private college is $19,700 a year. When I attended a private college back in the mid-70s I paid $7800 a year. That's an increase of 8.4% per year.
Ok, that's more than the general inflation rate of 2%, admittedly. But it's not a huge rate of inflation. It's not prices doubling overnight, it's prices doubling over 20 years.
You might want to check out the Wikipedia page on college tuition. It suggests that this trend of tuition growth goes back as far as records have been kept of this sort of thing - at least back to the 1940s. According to that article, once you adjust for inflation most schools have gone up only a very small amount, in the 1 or 2 percent range per year.
It isn't just the economy that Bush has allowed to get out of control, primarily as a result of his astronomically expensive nation-building military adventurism. He is also doing nothing to prevent our population from growing out of control. By giving amnesty to 10 or 20 million Mexican illegals, who will then in turn be in a position to sponsor 50 to 100 million of their relatives, he is sabotaging not only the American middle class, but also the Republican party. For it is the welfare- and multiculturalist-friendly Democrats whom the new Hispanic American majority will be voting for.
The economy isn't out of control. Despite a couple of factors of aberrant inflation like gas prices, the overall inflation rate is historically low. Essentials like food and clothes are at more or less the same or even cheaper prices than they were a few years ago.
Dave
97 - Richard Brodie
The economy isn't out of control.
And how many trillions of enslaving debt do Americans now groan under, that Bush has done nothing about eliminating?
Significant that the topic you should choose NOT to address is the very one that is supposedly the subject of this thread.
98 - Dave Nalle
Oh come on. Let's try to be at least hafway sane here, Richard. There's no 'enslaving' debt. We have a reasonable level of debt compared to our GDP, about the same as most other western countries. That debt may have grown in the last few years, but it does that periodically. Debt helps boost the economy and encourages foreign investment As for Bush doing nothing about eliminating it, he's increased tax revenues enormously and has successfully cut the two most recent budgets to the point where the deficit is expected to hit 0 years earlier than previously expected.
Dave
99 - Dave Nalle
As for the original topic, I'd be glad to carry on with it. Let's see some sensible arguments from the faction that wants us to promote labor shortages, massive inflation and huge spending on defending an indefensible border.
Dave