Critical space projects are suffering or dying and India reaps NASA windfall despite political danger all to feed Bush's "back to the moon" ego.
In what appears to be a Bush attempt at out-Kennedying JFK, ‘ol GW apparently is slashing NASA’s research funds by $59.8 billion in order to make budgetary room to salvage his pompous and extravagant scheme to get a moon base in his name set up by 2020 and a Mars mission soon after. Of course financing it will become another administration’s problem, having no choice but to find a way to fund it long after he’s gone due to the money already spent on it by then. His pet moon project has already cost us taxpayers dearly, and it is estimated to grow to $3.98 billion by 2007. (Funds in my opinion that could definitely be better used armoring soldiers' vehicles in Iraq or saving our vanishing middle class from extinction.)…
Article comments
126 - Raj
By the way Ruvy - You are from Israel ? I just love that country. India and Israel doing a lot of joint research in defence technology as well as in bio-tech and agro-sciences. Already Israel is the 2nd biggest exporter of defence systems to India.
127 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Yeah Raj,
I live in Israel. In some ways it is a dream come true - in others, a nightmare. But I'm grateful to live here and not in the States, where I used to live. I feel I'm home, a feeling I never had in the country I was born in. I do not dislike America. But if you're a Jew, and this is something that really matters to you, living in America is not the most productive thing to do.
I'm grateful to see the burgeoning cooperation between India and Israel at long last... Israel and India are two nations with a great deal in common and two nations that can benefit each other immensely.
128 - Victor Plenty
Jet, I don't know why you think I am personally hostile toward you. I've expressed strong agreement with you on other subjects before, and have never wished you any harm. It certainly brings me no "glee" whatsoever to see you experience such intense emotional distress over our relatively minor disagreements on this issue.
129 - Jet in Columbus
My Thanks to Nancy for staying on topic.
:)
130 - Jet in Columbus
All right okay, you've forced me to use both barrels of the shotgun... Here goes.
Why am I conderned about the Bush administration permanently damaging relations with two of our closest allies Canada and Australia???
Why am I concerned about misslie and nuclear concerns in southern Asia?
Why do I dispute Rag's spewing about India using "borrowed" technology from Canada to produce a nuclear bomb in '74, but didn't SUCCEED in making a usable weapon until 1998???
read on...
From Jet's web research department...
From Canada we have this…
Canada, Australia share concerns over U.S. uranium cartel plans
by JEFF SALLOT
OTTAWA -- Canada is rethinking the question of nuclear co-operation with India in light of concerns about that country's nuclear weapons, Prime Minister Stephen Harper says.
The Liberal government announced in September that Canada would resume trade in nuclear technology with India.
Yesterday, however, Mr. Harper suggested that his Conservative government might impose a moratorium because of worries about the proliferation of nuclear weapons technology. India has not signed the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
Mr. Harper and visiting Australian Prime Minister John Howard share concerns about a U.S. plan to establish a uranium cartel to supply nuclear reactor fuel to other countries. The United States says its plan is a non-proliferation initiative to keep tight control on nuclear fuel that could be reprocessed to manufacture warheads.
Even so, Mr. Howard said, Washington's plan could freeze Canada and Australia out of global markets for uranium nuclear fuel. Australia and Canada are the world's largest suppliers of uranium, but have not been included in the talks to establish the cartel.
Mr. Harper, speaking at a joint news conference with the Australian leader, said the Conservatives have not yet established a nuclear policy. But he believes nuclear reactors will be an important source of energy in the decades ahead.
But the question of supplying India is another matter, he suggested. "It's an issue we are looking at with some degree of caution."
Canadians are particularly sensitive on this point, he said, because India used Canadian-supplied technology in the early 1970s to put together its first crude nuclear bomb.
Mr. Harper said Canada will be looking to see if India signs on to international non-proliferation agreements as Ottawa decides whether to supply that country with nuclear technology.
Canada and many other countries clamped a moratorium on nuclear-technology sales in 1998 when India resumed tests of nuclear warheads. Pakistan, India's neighbor and political rival in southern Asia, followed suit and tested its own nuclear weapons…
And from Pakistan, we have this…
…In the interview that took place several weeks before threats were exchanged, Beg said a delegation from the Iranian Embassy in Pakistan had come to his office in January, seeking advice as Western pressure mounted on Iran to abandon its nuclear effort. Beg said he offered lessons learned from his experience dealing with India's nuclear threat.
He said he told the Iranians, whom he did not identify, that Pakistan had suspected India of collaborating with Israel in planning an attack on its nuclear facilities. By then, Pakistan had the bomb too.
But both countries had adopted a strategy of ambiguity, he said, and Pakistan sent an emissary to India to warn that no matter who attacked it, Pakistan would retaliate against India.
"We told India frankly that this is the threat we perceive and this is the action we are taking and the action we will take. It was a real deterrent," he recalled telling the Iranians.
He said he also advised them to "attempt to degrade the defense systems of Israel," harass it through the Hamas government of the Palestinian Authority and the Hezbollah movement in Lebanon, and put second-strike nuclear weapons on submarines.
Although analysts are divided on how soon Iran might have nuclear weapons, Beg said he is sure Iran has had enough time to develop them.
But he insists the Pakistani government didn't help, even though he says former prime minister Benazir Bhutto once told him the Iranians offered more than US$4 billion for the technology.
Ephraim Asculai, a former senior official with the Israel Atomic Agency Commission, said he didn't think Beg's remarks reflected official Pakistani policy.
Asculai said he believed Iran learned more from Iraq than from Pakistan, recalling that as soon as the 1991 Gulf War broke out, Saddam Hussein fired missiles at Israel, even though it wasn't in the US-led coalition fighting Iraq.
You're right Raj, I'm lousy at doing research
Solus mei sententia
Jet
131 - Jet in Columbus
WHAT??? you mean my comment 130 shut everyone up??
IT'S A MIRACLE!!!!
132 - Deano
Uh...I think it's very late at night in India. Round world, right?
133 - Jet in Columbus
Oh, well I guess that's a valid excuse...
134 - Raj
Jet -
[Personal attack deleted]
1. Canada's statements about India using Canadian technology to produce nuclear bombs does not hold true because Canada never had nuclear weapons technology in the first place. Not now , and certainly not in the 1970s.
2. I see you are now concerned how growing US-India relations affect US relations with Canada and Australia. Which is a very positive improvement on your earlier concern about how better US-India relations affected US ties with Pakistan. Good - atleast I see some progress from you.
3. India exploding its first nuclear 'crude' bomb in 1970s is hardly a joke. That bomb if dropped on an enemy country by plane had the capacity to cause 4 or 5 Hiroshimas. The only nuclear bomb ever used in a war was 'crude' as well.
4.I dont understand what you trying to prove by posting some random article. [Edited] For every nuclear tipped missile pointed at India's direction by Pakistan or China, there are 100-200 more pointed at US by either Russia or China. The whole world is a dangerous place Jet , not just South-Asia. [Edited]
[Edited]
135 - Jet in Columbus
Call me a liar, call the Prime ministers of Canada and Australia liars. [Edited] here's the link to prove it [Edited]
Read the Canadian news article in that link and discover just how much of a jerk you just made of yourself. You now have zero credibility.
I might also add that this bullshit of yours has nothing to do with the article.
I feel embarrased for you
136 - Jet in Columbus
Ruvy you might find comment 130 of interest...
137 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Jet, I did. I types lousy but I reads good. First point. the name of the Israeli official is Azoulai - a typical Morrocan Jewish name - you mistook the 'o' for a 'c'. Not relevant at all in terms of content, but rather in terms of your on-going vision problems - or those of the fellow who wrote the article...
Second point. The mere fact that someone is a prime minister (or president) of a country does not mean he will not be a liar. That is just on general principles. I'm not calling anybody a liar.
Third point. The American plan referred to in the comment has run into problems in both Israel and India. Anything that endangers our nuclear arsenal or threatens to limit it, is a problem for us. Both India and Israel have been most responsible in their behavior as nuclear powers and both have more than substantive reason to maintain nuclear arsenals. And from the article you present, we have more than substantive reason to put nuclear warheads on the missiles our submarines carry.
Finally - and this is going to be hard for you to understand - in my book, the American government is generally the bad guy, not the good guy. This does not say anything bad about Americans generally, who are a top shelf bunch, for the most part. This is not some "hate America" spewage. Read my article Dependence Day, particularly comment #11. That will give you some insight in to my views.
Yes, I would like very much to see an active American presence in space and Bush's actions stink. But it is a big world out there, as well as a big universe.
138 - Raj
Jet - tell me , how can India steal nukes from Canada when Canada never had them in the first place ? This is a simple question. Dont you think ?
139 - Raj
By the way Ruvy - you know that google thing ? For the sake of your precious 'national pride' , make sure you never touch their latest service - Google Finance. Conceptualised , developed and marketed by the Indian engineers at google r&d centers in India. Okay..
140 - Raj
I'm sorry - the previous post was addressed to [Personal attack deleted] Jet , not to Ruvy.
[Final warning, Raj. Get polite or get banned. Comments Editor]
141 - Raj
Okay Mr.Editor , I got it. No more personal attacks. [Edited]
I apologise.
You guys got a great site by the way...
142 - Andy Marsh
that's right...it's a kinder gentler BC now a days...almost anyway...
143 - troll
child mild
144 - Nancy
Raj, what any of us physically looks like is immaterial; personal attacks based on race, looks, etc. only show that YOU are the one lacking; it doesn't do squat to hurt Jet - or anyone else you target. So please grow up & get civil if you insist on continuing to blog here. Now, if you want to say you suspect he's on drugs, that MAY be permitted; I tell Nalle that all the time & haven't been swatted by the eds. yet...or maybe I'm just lucky & they never noticed.
145 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Nancy, I'll be more impressed with your skills if you can pull up this £ or this ¢. You'll have me really admiring you if you can pull up this € or this ®. But you'll have me drooling with jealousy if you can pull up the symbol for the New Shekel. I haven't been able to get that symbol up at all.
146 - Nancy
Mmmm...that's WP Typographic. I can get it on my wordprocessing program, but I don't know how to translate it to the net. Sorry. Do I get points for knowing where it comes from?
147 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
I dunno, Nancy.
I pull this stuff off my character map. I can type the NIS symbol on my Word docs, but not here. Moveable Type, which is what I think Blog Critics uses, does not accept Hebrew symbols. I learned that the hard way a while ago while trying to post something about Purim.
Shabbat Shalom, madam.
I have to work on a very painful item to get it posted here and then shave.
148 - Deano
Re: Comment 138 - On May 18, 1974, India detonated a 12-kiloton nuclear explosive in the Rajasthan desert. It was built using plutonium from a research reactor donated by Canada in 1956.
India had acquired a Cirus 40 MWt heavy-water-moderated research reactor from Canada and purchased the heavy water required from the U.S.
In 1964, India commissioned a reprocessing facility at Trombay, which was used to separate out the plutonium produced by the Cirus research reactor. This plutonium was used in India's first nuclear test on May 18, 1974, described by the Indian government as a "peaceful nuclear explosion."
At the time, the materials and the reactor were supposedly under an international safeguards system and international inspectors to ensure that material transferred for peaceful purposes, was only used for those purposes. The resultant furor over the illegal use of Canadian nuclear technology put a cloud over Indo-Canadian relations and caused the suspension of the transfer of Canadian nuclear technologies that was officially ended only recently.
My understanding is that while india did not directly "steal" any technology, they did violate prior agreements and protocols signed with both the Canadian and American governments and deliberately bypassed the controls and inspections in order to use Canadian nuclear technology to forge their first nuclear weapons.
Also just for note, the lack of nuclear weaponry does not equate to the inability to manufacture of create nuclear weaponry. Canada has had the nuclear technology necessary to develop nuclear weapons for more than 40 years, but has, elected NOT to do so. That is very different from not having the capability.
149 - Jet in Columbus
Deano-Thanks for looking that up, I had parts of it, but it really wasn't supposted to be part of this discussion until...
Oh never mind.
Thanks so much for the contribution to the discussion, much appreciated...
Jet
150 - Jet in Columbus
Deano-What was your Info source, that might make an interesting follow-up article if you don't myind my stealing the idea?
151 - Deano
you can find some good background on the CBC.
152 - Jet in Columbus
Okay thanks, I'll check it out
153 - Jet in Columbus
Those weather satelites we were counting on to be launched to help forcast huricanes this year, gee with funding cut, the technology didn't get developed, but Bush's freinds got paid for them anyway didn't they?
154 - Jet in Columbus
ArchBingBat asked if the only thing I write about has to do with sexual orientation, Hmmmmmmmm?
155 - Jet in Columbus
Gee... what ever did happen to Bush's moon base?
156 - Jet in Columbus
This story was covered in the news media only today and in Jay Leno's monologue. I wrote it in May!
Jet
157 - Jet in Columbus
Those GOP senators just keep biting the dust don't they?
==================
WASHINGTON " Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska, the longest-serving Republican senator in United States history and a figure of great influence in Washington as well as in his home state, has been indicted on federal corruption charges.
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Brendan Smialowski for The New York Times
Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska in Washington last year.
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Times Topics: Ted Stevens
Al Grillo/Associated Press
The authorities at the Stevens home in Girdwood, Alaska.
Mr. Stevens, 84, was indicted on seven counts of falsely reporting income. The charges are related to renovations on his home and to gifts he has received. They arise from an investigation that has been under way for more than a year, in connection with the senator’s relationship with a businessman who oversaw the home-remodeling project.
The indictment will surely reverberate through the November elections. Mr. Stevens, who has been in the Senate for 40 years, is up for re-election this year. Mark Begich, a popular Democratic mayor of Anchorage, hopes to supplant him.
The Justice Department scheduled a news conference for Tuesday afternoon to announce the indictment.
Republicans on Capitol Hill were already jittery over a lobbying and influence-peddling scandal related to the lobbyist Jack Abramoff, who is now in prison. Mr. Stevens’s troubles are not linked to that affair. Instead, they stem from his ties to an oil executive whose company won millions of dollars in federal contracts with the help of Mr. Stevens, whose home in Alaska was almost doubled in size in the renovation project.
Mr. Stevens is a former chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee, and he is still on the panel. As chairman, he wielded huge influence, and did not hesitate to use it to steer money and projects to his state.
158 - Jet
I wonder what ever happened to Bush's Moon Base?
159 - Dr Dreadful
Isn't it called Crawford, Texas?
160 - Jet
Well, he had to spend the money somewhere-Haliburton doesn't have branch offices on the moon yet.
161 - Jet
According to avaition week magazine...
162 - bliffle
Sending humans into space is pretty silly at this point in time. Better that we should send instruments to solve specific problems: they can go further, for longer time, do better work, and we don't have to worry about bringing them back.
163 - Jet
Oh I don't know Bliffle, I can think of a few people I'd like to shoot into apace...
164 - Dr Dreadful
Bliff,
Yes, better and cheaper science can be done with robotic satellites and probes. But at some point, there's no substitute for actually getting out there and getting your hands dirty. Not to mention the human sense of adventure.
As is often argued, if such an attitude had prevailed 500 years ago, we'd probably still be sitting in London and Paris and Lisbon and Genoa, and only now be starting to wonder what lay over the western horizon, and launching automated ships and planes to take a look.
Jet,
Glenn is right that it would be far cheaper to assemble Mars-going craft in Earth orbit rather than on the Moon - due to the lower escape velocity that would be needed by the finished vehicle. BUT he's assuming for the sake of argument that the raw materials for the vehicle would be carted from Earth to Moon, put together there and then shot back up into orbit from the Moon's surface. That's just not practical, and note that he rightly qualifies it, "If that's what we're doing - which I don't believe it is". [my emphasis]
There are a wealth of good ideas for using the Moon and its natural resources as a manufacturing base, without needing to bring anything up from Earth. But that's some way in the future, and I don't believe it forms a part of Bush's/NASA's plan at this stage.
165 - Jet
Gloria: As an American Veteran, I must say i'm "shocked". How did we let this happen in the "greatest country in the world?"
Read this article Gloria, it's been going on longer than you think!
166 - Cannonshop
It could have also been pointed out that, unlike the U.S., INDIA's university students learn math, and Science, instead of Marketing, Boozing, and Topless Dance-Offs.
167 - Jet
Cannon, when your kids are taught K-12 bible studies as fact versus science studies as "theories" what do you expect they'd do in college?
168 - Cannonshop
#167 Um... rebel? Go into Porn? Join the Libertarians? I dunno... I do know that the best-and-brightest America produces mainly go into Law-School (along with the top end of the Mediocre. The bottom end, of course, become Management or go into politics. The Worst become teachers...)
169 - Cannonshop
Oh, I forgot...and the few (very few) scientists? they either go into Environmental Advocacy (because they would like to eat, and appealing to vanity/guilt works) OR, they're working hard to keep Americans hairy, hard, and big-boobed.
170 - Jet
Well, I can buy the liberarian part... I guess.