Critical space projects are suffering or dying and India reaps NASA windfall despite political danger all to feed Bush's "back to the moon" ego.
In what appears to be a Bush attempt at out-Kennedying JFK, ‘ol GW apparently is slashing NASA’s research funds by $59.8 billion in order to make budgetary room to salvage his pompous and extravagant scheme to get a moon base in his name set up by 2020 and a Mars mission soon after. Of course financing it will become another administration’s problem, having no choice but to find a way to fund it long after he’s gone due to the money already spent on it by then. His pet moon project has already cost us taxpayers dearly, and it is estimated to grow to $3.98 billion by 2007. (Funds in my opinion that could definitely be better used armoring soldiers' vehicles in Iraq or saving our vanishing middle class from extinction.)…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - RJ Elliott
"Help me conprehend why everyone is so totally unconcerned about the Bush Administration handing over missile tech to India, which will be undoubtedly be used to make ICBMs to threaten China, Pakistan and others, making India a major world power."
Um, maybe because India is a democracy, and relatively friendly to the US, so giving them such technology could be useful to us in our inevitable future disputes with Red China and potentially an unfriendly, Islamist Pakistan?
77 - Raj
"Help me conprehend why everyone is so totally unconcerned about the Bush Administration handing over missile tech to India, which will be undoubtedly be used to make ICBMs to threaten China, Pakistan and others, making India a major world power."
1. Bush administration is not handing over any missile technology to India.
2. India already has a fairly advanced missile technology
3. India already has developed ICBMs and is developing more in partnership with Russia - called the 'Brahmos'.
4. If China can be considered to be a 'major world power' , India is not too far behind.
78 - MCH
"Um, maybe because India is a democracy, and relatively friendly to the US, so giving them such technology could be useful to us in our inevitable future disputes with Red China and potentially an unfriendly, Islamist Pakistan?"
True, we'll need all the outside help we can get as more and more of our own able-bodied men evade service.
79 - RJ Elliott
"True, we'll need all the outside help we can get as more and more of our own able-bodied men evade service."
"Evade service"???
Is there currently a Draft? Or was that just an election-year lie generated by P. Diddy and the Democrats back in 2004?
80 - Joey
Thank you Raj, at last. Whew! Trying to get that information over this crowd is an uphill battle.
As I have stated before, and elsewhere. India is the LARGEST DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD.... WHY HAS CORPORATE AMERIRICA LAVISHED AND SLATHERED UPON THE BOOTS OF MAOIST CHINA!!!! That's uncomprehendable to me... and to several professors of economics I happen to converse with on a regular basis.
81 - Jet in Columbus
Victor 72-I mistyped in my haste and meant since the first moon walk in 1969 which was 37 years ago.
I tell you what Victor, since you seem bound and determined to disagree and argue with anything and everything I write to the apparent point of obsession, and don't seem to want to contribute, I'm just going to let go of the hope of having any kind of dialogue with you.
82 - Raj
Joey - as an Indian working for 'Corporate America' , I know for a fact that things are changing fast and US companies , as well as financial insititutions are investing heavily in India. Companies go where they can make money , get max. return for their investment. But I must admit India is a distant second to China as far as getting net US investment is concerned , and will remain so for the forseeable future. The difference is the sort of investment the two countries get. China mostly gets manufacturing - hardware, India mostly gets the information technology - software.
China has an advantage in manufacturing because of the better infrastructure and flexible labor laws.
83 - Jet in Columbus
Excuse me all of you, but as a matter of national pride I wanted NASA to carry the American mission back to the moon.
The point is that the Bush administration is closing down important science projects so he can fund his mission to Moon/Mars and not only is he doing it by outsourcing it to other countries, but he's hurting my national pride, or am I too "liberal minded" for any one to believe I have pride in America.
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Jet
84 - Jet in Columbus
Sorry to hurt you collective national prides, but the only reason China and India are thriving on American dollars is cheap labor
85 - Raj
Jet-Columbu - you are an ignorant idiot. That is all I can say about you.
86 - Jet in Columbus
Oh no,now I'm going to cry myself to sleep
87 - MCH
"Evade service??? Is there currently a Draft? Or was that just an election-year lie generated by P. Diddy and the Democrats back in 2004?"
- RJ Elliott
"I would have served, if not for the medical deferment I received from my family physician for a cyst on my bummy."
- Rush Limbaugh
88 - Jet in Columbus
Thanks MCH
89 - JR
Sorry to hurt you collective national prides, but the only reason China and India are thriving on American dollars is cheap labor
I recently got a look at a high school math textbook from India. If you think those people are merely cheap labor, you are in for a rude awakening. Sorry to hurt your national pride, but when it comes to technology, we need them more than they need us.
90 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Joey writes,
"As I have stated before, and elsewhere. India is the LARGEST DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD.... WHY HAS CORPORATE AMERIRICA LAVISHED AND SLATHERED UPON THE BOOTS OF MAOIST CHINA!!!! That's uncomprehendable to me... and to several professors of economics I happen to converse with on a regular basis."
You mean you haven't figured out the obvious? What corporation is a democracy!!! Corporations are hierarchies, like China.
Jet,
I hope you are learning a bit from Raj here. I didn't want to raise the outsourcing issue and argue with you because frankly, you were slamming India, not Israel. Aside from its snooty attitude towards the Jewish state, I know little of the country, particularly its military and space programs, and could not talk intelligently to the issue. For the most part on Desicritics, I am the humble student.
I agree with you that the Americans' cutting serious research dollars is a major mistake. And they will pay, assuming that some messianic intervention in the next few years does not upset everybody's apple carts.
Unfortunately, Jet, because America is such a big country, as well as a prosperous one, Americans tend not to look beyond their own borders. It's a big world out there.
Not everybvody buys his underwear at K-Mart, if you know what I mean.
And just so you should know, many corporations outsource call centers here. The native English speakers sound just like Americans or Englishmen. I know. I used to work in one. And I sound like a New Yorker or a Minnesotan, depending on where and whom I speak to. A friend of mine runs a stock brokerage out of Tel Aviv that deals with almost exclusively American clients. He can charge less. Labor is cheaper here, though not as cheap as in India or in Pakistan.
Think about what productive activity American industry engages in these days. Look at your products. Then do some serious thinking as to why there is a sense in the USA that your nation is on the road to the toilet to be flushed down the drain of history.
91 - -E
Congrats, this article was picked for one of this week's Ed Picks. Keep up the good work.
92 - Mr. Real Estate
Jet wrote:
Tax everyone at 10% leaving in all deductions, or tax them at 5% with the only deduction being the home mortgage deduction. With billions of working people in this country, there is no reason why anyone should have to pay more than 5%, other than to subsidize government waste, which there is way too much of.
93 - Andy Marsh
I don't think there are billions of people in the US...even if you count the non-working ones!
94 - Jet in Columbus
Raj your attitude about my country is another reason why I don't think American technology should be riding atop Indian missiles.
I have just as much right to my national pride as you do.
Dear God I'm starting to sound like a republican!
Dave Nalle would be so proud of me!
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Jet
95 - Jet in Columbus
JR in a recent CNN report, it seems corporations are outsourcing college graduates to India to train them on the proper way to use our technology. Why? because it's cheaper to train them over there than here. Once they'e got that experience then they're brought back here.
Now Bush and big business are not only outsourcing our best and brightest, our technology, but also our space programs!
Next thing you know, I'll have Raj claiming that years ago Indian scientists invented the telephone, missiles, movable type printing, and apple pie!
96 - Jet in Columbus
Ruvy 90-This article didn't start out slamming India, nor was it ever meant to.
I'm slamming Bush. If we're going to have to pay to put his useless moon base up there ont the backs of cut American science, then BY DAMN THE LEAST HE CAN DO IS USE NASA AND AMERICAN KNOW-HOW to do it.
That's the point I'm trying to make.
I only started putting India down, whe Raj started implying that the U.S. is somehow to a country that until recently was considered an overpopulated "third world" theocracy with cows wandering the streets and poverty everwhere, claiming they were the biggest Democracy in population only.
97 - Jet in Columbus
E#91 Thank you, I'm honored. Now if only I can get people to read the article instead of the comments!
98 - Jet in Columbus
Mr. Real Estate #92. The reason Congress won't pass a flat tax is that it makes too much sense, and forces fat-cat millionaire republicans to pay their fair share.
There is a sign over my desk that reads "If it makes sense, It's against company policy!"
I'll offer a conpromise solution-A flat 7.5 percent paid by everyone NO DEDUCTIONS, including huge rich church corporations like Falwell and Robertson Inc. and our national debt would disappear instantly.
The problem with Rebublican federal tax cuts is that the moment they happen, republican governors raise state taxes to offset them, leaving the rich with their monster deductions paying almost no taxes at all, and the shrinking middle class paying more after their "tax cut"
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Jet
99 - Jet in Columbus
Andy 93 I'd think someone as intelligent as you come come up with something better than nit-picking over a typo.
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Jet
100 - Andy Marsh
if you want to eliminate the national debt legalize marijuana and tax it like alcohol...there's be no debt..no SS worries...no medicare/medicaid worries...
101 - Jet in Columbus
ANDY!!!!!!!!!! aaaaaaaaaaMEN! Finally-someone with sense and reason!
102 - Andy Marsh
smoke 'em if ya got 'em!
103 - Victor Plenty
Jet, you're being irrational in multiple ways here. You are attacking people whom you would readily recognize as your natural allies if you had more clarity of perception.
Like you, I happen to disagree with Bush's priorities on space exploration. But because my disagreement with him takes just a slightly different form from your disagreement with him, you consider me an enemy of your views? You leap to take offense at my efforts to discuss the issues you have raised, yet you also expressed a wish you could generate more discussion in the comments on your article.
Here's a clue for you. If you'd like to get more comments on your articles, maybe your best strategy for that might be something other than telling your potential allies they aren't worthy to debate you and you're giving up on them. Until you learn how to do that, you can drum up discussion on your articles without any more help from me. Good luck.
104 - Jet in Columbus
Victor your comments are most welcome here, but damn it after I acknowledge that you have a point it's not necessary to keep REPEATEDLY throwing them back in my face!
There are only so many times I'm going to acknowledge your opinions before I get frustrated and give up.
INDIA IS NOT BEING ATTACKED IN THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE it was only after Raj started putting down the U.S. that I got pissed.
I will say this again, my anger is pointed at Bush for giving the task of putting American satelites in orbit around the moon to ANY other country. In this case it just happens to be India, but the irk is pointed at BUSH.
If he asked England or Canada to put the damned things up instead of our own NASA I'm be just as pissed.
GOT IT???????????
You're acting like A fucking little brother that GLEEFULLY won't stop needling me until I lose my temper-GROW THE FUCK UP!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Jet
105 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Ruvy 90-This article didn't start out slamming India, nor was it ever meant to.
Jet, it isn't that I don't sympathise with your views. I do. But attacks are in the eye of the beholder. I tried to point out more than once that this article would generate quite a bit of debate on a forum where Desis - Indians, Pakistanis, Sri Lankans etc. - frequent. Raj's comments are just a small spoonful of the saffron that would be dished out.
Were I an Indian, I would have been offended by your comments. I'm not an Indian, so I wasn't. But I could easily see where offense would have been taken.
Now, do understand me. You express your views as a patriotic American who loves his country. I'm not saying you shouldn't do that. I've been one after all, even if I'm not now. But be ready to face the attitudes of others who have pride in their own countries and their countries' respective achievements.
106 - Matthew T. Sussman
Here's a trend:
"More comments" have a direct correlation with "more points of contention"
So maybe you're aimin' for fewer comments.
107 - Deano
Jet, I'm curious what you think about the various proposals for X-Prizes that are also being floated around as a more cost-effective way of reaching the moon goal? Using x-prizes instead of government funding would probably result in a more commerically-oriented, faster and more cost-effective process...and might enable NASA to continue to fund the pure science research that it is now being forced to cut.
If I recall, the space shuttle program ended up sourcing parts from 48 states for political purposes - not precisely an efficient system.
Better yet, let's just give Burt Rutan $5-billion and a contract...
108 - Jet in Columbus
Ruvy 105, Shabbat shalom-as always the voice of reason-Barukh haShem
109 - Jet in Columbus
You know what Matthew, I'm going to write a sports article just to piss you off.
110 - Jet in Columbus
Deano #107 Thanks for contributing. Without doing the research I was under the impression that the X-prizes were for Orbital tourism.
Let me look it up.
Also I've got no problem with Canada providing the engineering for the orbital space arm... so that's something?
I guess even 'ol Burt could us an extra 5 large?
111 - Raj
Look - I have no time for the idiot Jet's 'national pride'. Usually losers like him take recourse to boasting collective national achievments since they dont have much of their own. 'Hey I may be a loser , but my country is the greatest and richest in the world and so I am better than you' . Thats the way it is with people like Jet.
The issue I have is with the fact the arrogant ignorance (ignorant and proud of it) displayed by this guy. Sadly none of the others here seem to have picked up on his ignorance/lies.
I dont want to repeat myself , just check out my comments at #73 , 74 ,75 and 77 to see what I mean.
112 - Raj
Is that you in the picture Jet ? Jeez - you are one ugly creepy chap ain't you....
113 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Raj, cut Jet a little slack here. He is, like many Americans, rather ignorant of things going on beyond his own borders. Events in Iraq have changed that - a little bit. I used to be ignorant in the same way and far more provincial than he is. Trust me, there is nothing more provincial than a New Yorker who thinks that the sun sets in the Hudson River.
A trip across the North American continent twenty five years ago, and living here have broadened those horizons some. At least I'm smart enough not to presume to know much about the Indian sub-continent!
But Jet is no loser. Give him a chance to learn. International politics is just not his forté - yet.
114 - Jet in Columbus
Raj I guess I'll have to state this again and again until my fingers fall off...
I will say this again, my anger is pointed at Bush for giving the task of putting American satelites in orbit around the moon to ANY other country. In this case it just happens to be India, but the irk is pointed at BUSH.
If he asked England or Canada to put the damned things up instead of our own NASA I'd be just as pissed
115 - Jet in Columbus
By the way Raj resorting to personal insults shows a lot of intelligence.
I won't return the favor, I'm better than that.
116 - Raj
Ruvy - I have studied/worked with many smart Americans. They dont crib about 'national pride' getting hurt because of - you know , globalisation. They would rather profit from it.
But forget 'national pride'....its his ignorance about the topic he writes and article about that makes me have so much contempt for him.
117 - Jet in Columbus
Deano, thanks for getting me curious enough to check out X-Prize's site. You're right it'd make a great program, too bad Bush's administration has cut science funding to the point where it's needed!
118 - Deano
Wikipedia has a good summary: "The Ansari X Prize (formerly the X Prize) was a US$10,000,000 prize, offered by the X PRIZE Foundation, for the first non-government organization to launch a reusable manned spacecraft into space twice within two weeks."
"Into space" was defined as 100 km (62 miles). The overall objective was the development of low-cost methods and technologies to achieve orbital insertion.
It was won last year by Burt Rutan's company Scaled Composites with SpaceshipOne (Rutan, in case you don't know who he is, was the aviation design pioneer who flew the plane Voyager around the world on a single tank of gas).
The reason you probably associate the program with "space tourism" is that Richard Branson, of Virgin fame has signed up with Scaled Composites to build more vehicles and launch Virgin Intergalactic - a space tourism joint venture.
There are a number of suggestions that offering such x-prizes and tax incentives would offer a more cost-efficient method of developing earth-to-orbit technologies and/or a viable moonbase then you can achieve with government funding and government bureaucracy (as well as other areas such as fuel-efficient cars, gene-mapping technology etc.).
I have no idea whether this is something the Bush administration is interested in but it would certainly impact on the funding shortfalls you cited.
119 - Jet in Columbus
I wasn't going to quote all that, and I think we posted our last comments at the same time, but It's a great site worth visiting.
Wikipedia is a good starting source by I'd rather go straight to the "horse's Mouth" so to speak.
Again let me thank you for your contribution to this string.
120 - Raj
Jet - I fully understand your need to find solace in your precious 'national pride'.....bet there is not much else for you to be proud about.
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] but do make sure you do a little more research the next time you write an article or an essay. Okay ?
For a start , you can [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] post a suitable reply to my posts #73,74,75 and 77 where I have nailed your lies.
[Raj, please be civil or I will ban you. Thank you. Comments Editor]
121 - Jet in Columbus
Keep going Raj on and on and on and on. Just because you say it so doesn't make it so... I'm beginning to feel really sorry for you.
As for my research, since the editors of this site just picked this article to feature it, I'd say a few people disagree with you there.
You had us all fooled that you might be someone with integrity or intelligence worth listening to until you started with the personal insults... now you're just a smart-ass sitting at a keyboard.
Make a meaningful contribution here, or go annoy someone somewhere else, you poor thing.
122 - Nancy
I have no problem with this Moon project, just as long as W is the chimp that gets packed off to stay there for the rest of his life. That alone would be worth it, for me.
123 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Raj,
A thought or two for you from someone in a country that both pofits and loses from globilization.
Right now globalization cuts India's way, and could cut Pakistan's way even more, were they able to get their act together. But the day will come when the American economy will tank. The Yanks are sinking in debt up to their necks and don't even realize how badly off they can be - though some have a sense. When that economy does tank, globalization will not necessarily cut India's way anymore.
India has not been able to lift itself out of poverty just yet, though massive efforts have been made and much progress has been made. A lot of that progress has been made by stripping the Yanks of their productive capacity. But this may not last too much longer, and India needs more time to lift its 1.5 billion to a better standard of living.
It matters little that it has been Yanks who have lead the march in doing this. What these Yanks do not understand is that their middle own class - the basis of their prosperity and stability - is eroding quickly. And when this erosion reaches a critical point, the rich Yanks who have led the way benefitting from globalization will have to flee with their money to safety.
History happens to all of us, Raj. I sense it is about to really happen to America.
124 - Raj
Lets discuss the article itself , shall we Jet ? By the way , getting an essay passed by the editors of a blog is no mean effort , huh , Jet ? That should certify you as a freakin genius huh ?
Tell me , how did you jump from
A ) "India will be taking over NASA's $89 million two-year project to put American payloads into a 62-mile lunar orbit to find possible polar ice in the areas of the moon permanently out of our view and to map landing sites. Of the approximate 15-20 planned instruments aboard, 11 if them will be made in India, with a possible additional three devices coming from the European Space Agency."
TO
B)"Is President Bush really pushing India to compete with a Chinese plan to put an orbital rover on the lunar surface by 2012 without considering the international political consequences? Everyone seems to be overlooking the fact that India's four-stage Chandrayann-1 rocket that's going to be used for this mission is also potentially the same device being developed for carrying possible nuclear warheads, and that the research and technology provided by the U.S. could help them toward that end! (In case you didn't notice, George " India didn't sign the 1968 Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty.)"
-------
Thats a fantastic leap of imagination dont you think Jet ? And such majestic condescention.
Who new carrying little Nasa payloads and projects to explore polar ice on the moon would lead to the development of (horror of horrors) ICBMs ? Another mess up by Bush , huh Jet ?
And yes Jet , Bush and the entire US administration are fully aware that India never signed the NPT in 1968. They are also aware - unlike you - that India exploded its first little nuclear bomb in - 1974.
125 - Raj
Ruvy ,
You know which country is the biggest investor in India ? Not - its not the US. Its Japan. I dont understand why you make such a big deal about this globalisation thing. Globalisation is a simple concept where national boundaries do not hinder trade/business.