Is Morales doing Castro's dirty work?
On Tuesday morning, after two days of silence, the Bolivian Interior Ministry announced the arrest and imminent extradition to Cuba of Cuban dissident Dr. Amauri Sanmartino Flores at his home in Santa Cruz, according to The Miami Herald.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - moonraven
Ruvvy,
You are out of your element here.
First, extradition is not involved. Extradition is when a country in which someone committed a crime asks another country to send that person to the country where the crime was committed or where the person was being tried for a crime in the event that he/she fled the country (Posadas is a case in point). That has nothing to do with this situation. Nobosy is asking for him. Nobody wants him.
Nor does the case you mentioned of Solzhenitsyn. What he did or did not do at a private US university regarding his opinion of Harvard faculty is not at all comparable to this cubano numbskull's calling for the fall of the Bolivian government and the secession of part of its territory.
Pears don't fall from oak trees.
27 - Clavos
If the elite establishment in the States would have felt comfortable sending Solzhenitsyn back to the USSR, they would have in the twinkling of an eye.
But, unlike Morales, they didn't...
28 - moonraven
Clavos, Don't try to be a smartass. Of course I am in favor of freedom of speech--even your pathetic variety. I am simply explaining something about how political asylum works in most of the countries on the planet.
Go ahead, call for the assassination of George W. You are not a political refugee--you are even a US citizen--from what you say. Your ass will be grass in the blink of an eyelid.
That's how much your freedom of speech matters in the US.
Now, if that guy pulled the same caper here in Mexico, he would already be back in Cuba. There would have been zero discussion. Here no foreigner is permitted to "inmiscuirse" in politics. (Article 33 of the Mexican Constitution)
Folks in precarious standing in a country who deliberately committ seditious acts are not looked upon with big smiles much of anywhere.
Not even you, nails, are above the law.
29 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
I hate to say this Clavos, but not many people care what happens in Bolivia. They do not care if a refugee calls for the country's splitting apart, or whatnot. Harvard is at the center of the universe of the ruling elites of America.
I'm sure that grounds could have been found to send Solzhenitsyn back to the USSR. But it would have embarrassed the prissy bastards at Harvard and the elites that they represent.
30 - moonraven
Clavos doesn't care what happens in Bolvia, either. He's never been there, knows no Bolivians and knows zip about the country.
He is just putting on airs.
31 - Clavos
Imagine him in the US calling for the fall of the Bush Gang and the succession of Florida, Alabama and Mississippi--especially in a public march
First of all, it's secession, not succession. They're entirely different.
People call for the fall of the Bush administration and even the jailing of Bush about a million times a day in this country, including right here on this blog , with no reprisals whatever.
People call for secession of areas and entire states in the US regularly, too. Some years back, the citizens of California's San Fernando valley started a movement to secede from L.A. Don't know whether they succeeded or not. Groups in Montana and Wyoming constantly call for the secession of those states. Apart from laughter, no one's taking any action against them, either.
You're way off base (as usual) on this one, Martita.
32 - Clavos
Go ahead, call for the assassination of George W.
You're raising strawmen again, Martita.
Sanmartino didn't call for the assassination of anybody.
33 - Clavos
He's never been there, knows no Bolivians
And your proof of that would be...?
34 - moonraven
The folks you mention were not political refugees.
Again, peras de olmos.
See number 26 for spelling of secession.
35 - moonraven
Proof: You would not have missed a chance to tell us if you had been there or knew any Bolivians.
Obviously, you have not--and you don't.
Hey, I am no expert on Bolivia, either--I only know one Bolivian: Evo Morales.
36 - Clavos
I hate to say this Clavos, but not many people care what happens in Bolivia.
That's obvious from the paltry number of comments on the thread, Ruvy.
One of my reasons for writing the article was to raise awareness about what's going on there...
And in checking around, I'm finding that the article's been picked up by several news feed services around the world, so maybe an increase in awareness (if not concern) will result from it.
37 - moonraven
Clavos,
This will have to be my last comment for the day.
You say that the guy did not call for the assassination of Morales. I am not at all sure of that. My experience of Latin America is that when someone publically calls for the fall of a country's government, that is all too frequently what they are calling for.
I fail to see why you have taken up this idiot's case. Except as a pretext for blithering on blogcritics....
38 - Clavos
The folks you mention were not political refugees.
Ah, so now you ARE in favor of freedom of speech, but not for political refugees?
Who will you deny it to next?
39 - Clavos
"putting on airs?"
Well, la de da, Miz Scarlett...
40 - moonraven
Sedition is not freedom of speech. In this case the guy was abusing his legal situation in Bolvia, daring the government of Morales to take action.
They took him up on it.
Clavos, you just do not have the level of awareness of Latin America--or apparently, even of the US--to make a credible argument. Your logic is: let him do whatever he wants since he's in Bolivia--a country with an indigenous majority and a president with whom you do not share a political ideology.
In the offchace that the Bush Gang won't take the guy in (why did they not want him in the first place--and palmed him off on Bolivia--there's more to this story), I have a suggestion: Call Evo Morales and tell him that you personally will put your hand in the fire for this pendejo, and have him shipped freight collect to your digs in South Florida.
Keep us posted on your houseguest.
41 - Clavos
Sedition is not freedom of speech.
The only justification you have for calling what he was doing "sedition" is allegations by the Morales government, who, of course, are trying to justify their decision to deport him.
Your logic is: let him do whatever he wants since he's in Bolivia
My logic, and my point, is that Evo Morales is beginning to take on the appearance of another typical LatAm strong man, just like your hero Hugo "el payaso" Chávez and their mentor, Fidel "al paredón" Castro, and this case is excellent evidence of that.
Morales is persecuting a man who has done nothing more than exercise his human right to express his disagreement with the Cuban government.
He denies the other charges, regarding his opposition to Morales, and, until and unless those charges are proven in a fair trial, he's innocent of them.
Or maybe you don't believe in that, either.
You have only straw men, not an argument, Martita.
42 - Dave Nalle
Sedition is not freedom of speech.
It is in America, and ought to be everywhere. If we're not free to criticize our government are we really free at all?
Plus, criticizing the Cuban government when you're in Bolivia isn't sedition - unless, of course, Cuba secretly rules Bolivia. Are you privy to something we don't know yet, Marthe?
Dave
43 - moonraven
Dave,
I probably should not dignify your question with a reply, but the reason the guy is up for deportation from Bolivia is for calling for the fall of ITS government--not Cuba's--and for the secession of eastern Bolivia. That is sedition as well as interference in political affairs of the HOST country.
Of course you know zip about Latin America, but to inform you a little: All of the countries I have spent time in here have articles in their constitutions prohibiting foreigners to interfere in the politics of the host country. Mexico has article 33, and I don't remember the number of the article in Ecuador, but in both countries the Immigration folks are quite zealous about booting folks out for even being close to a political manifestation in the street.
Before your dramatic firing squad finish here in Mexico (payment in advance, please) you could always try your luck at turning up at a street march in Oaxaca....
44 - Dave Nalle
I probably should not dignify your question with a reply,
Or 8 replies for that matter...
but the reason the guy is up for deportation from Bolivia is for calling for the fall of ITS government--not Cuba's--and for the secession of eastern Bolivia. That is sedition as well as interference in political affairs of the HOST country.
Yep, if that's true he should probably be deported. Not that I believe anything you post, but an emerging socialist dictatorship can't afford critics.
Of course you know zip about Latin America,
True, I'm incapable of reading or learning.
but to inform you a little: All of the countries I have spent time in here have articles in their constitutions prohibiting foreigners to interfere in the politics of the host country.
With good reason since many of their governments were started by interfering foreigners - oops, I'm not allowed to know about that, am I.
Mexico has article 33, and I don't remember the number of the article in Ecuador, but in both countries the Immigration folks are quite zealous about booting folks out for even being close to a political manifestation in the street.
Like I said before, oppressive governments can ill-afford outspoken critics.
Dave
45 - Clavos
but to inform you a little: All of the countries I have spent time in here have articles in their constitutions prohibiting foreigners to interfere in the politics of the host country.
Which is precisely proves the central point of my article:
The Morales government (and, as you say, most LatAm governments, including my own) is repressive.
Thanks for the confirmation!
46 - Mohjho
Hey moon, your wasting your facts on this crowd.
47 - Clavos
Except they're not facts, Mohjo.
They're as yet unproven accusations by a repressive left-wing government.
48 - moonraven
The guy committed sedition. And if his heart condition is real, he was a damn fool to take chances with his health as well as the place he was allowed to live! He has no sympathy from me. Let him pay the price of his actions.
When you are not a citizen of a country you are there by permission of its government. They do nothave to put you on trial for crimes you may or may not be guilty of. They just give you the boot. That's the way the system works, whether YOU like it or not.
And whether or not you agree with the ideological posture of a government, if you are a GUEST in the country it is incumbent upon you to respect its laws. If you don't, expect to pay the consequences of your actions.
As a longtime GUEST in Latin America, I am not disrespectful enough to flaunt its laws--nor that stupid.
Apparently there are posters on this site who believe that they are above the law wherever they go.
Those folks had better stay in their home country.
49 - Clavos
Did you even read the article, Mohjo?
50 - moonraven
Uh, Clavos:
Just so you don't think you're off the hook,
1. WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE THAT THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT OF BOLIVIA IS A REPRESSIVE ONE?
(Leftwing does not equate with repressive in Latin America--but rightwing sure does; one of your rightwing heroes, Augusto Pinochet, just bought the farm--did you send flowers?)
2. WHAT ARRANGEMENTS HAVE YOU MADE FOR YOUR HOUSEGUEST?
51 - Dave Nalle
For what it's worth, Reporters Without Borders gives Bolivia a pretty good rating for freedom of the press, way way higher than Venezuela which is currently tied with Cambodia and Zambia near the bottom of the list.
Dave
52 - moonraven
Check out the funding source for Reporters Without Borders.
1. According to wikipedia, 19% of funding comes from Western governments--including from the US NED which funded the 2002 coup attempt in Venezuela.
2. And then we have: (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Reporters_Without_Borders)
Funding Sources
Robert Menard, the Secretary General of RSF, was forced to confess that RSF's budget was primarily provided by "US organizations strictly linked with US foreign policy" (Thibodeau, La Presse).
NED (US$39,900 paid 14 Jan 2005)
Center for a Free Cuba (USAID and NED funded) $50,000 per year NED grant. Contract was signed by Otto Reich
European Union (1.2m Euro) -- currently contested in EU parliament
Rights & Democracy in 2004 supported Reporters Without Borders-Canada [1]
Principal focus of RSF activities
Cuba
Venezuela
Haiti
Otto Reich connection
"The man who links RSF to these activities is Otto Reich, who worked on the coups first as assistant secretary of state for Latin American affairs, and, after Nov. 2002, as a special envoy to Latin America on the National Security Council. Besides being a trustee of the government-funded Center for a Free Cuba, which gives RSF $50,000 a year, Reich has worked since the early 1980's with the IRI.'s senior vice president, Georges Fauriol, another member of the Center for a Free Cuba. But it is Reich's experience in propaganda that is especially relevant."
They have about as much credibility these days as folks like you, Dave. You are so fond of the word, SHILL--these guys are shills.
53 - Clavos
1. WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE THAT THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT OF BOLIVIA IS A REPRESSIVE ONE?
IT ACCUSES PEOPLE OF SEDITION AND WITHOUT DUE PROCESS ATTEMPTS TO DEPORT THEM BACK INTO THE HANDS OF A MURDEROUS REGIME.
And for all your blathering about laws in Constitutions, ANY government that codifies prohibitions against criticism BY ANYBODY, "guest" or not, is ipso facto, repressive.
And that goes for los Estados Unidos Mexicanos también (unlike you, I can legally say that).
54 - moonraven
Clavos, Man, are you full of it!
Now you are trying to justify your blanket statements by ONE EXAMPLE that is NOT repressive in the least.
I guess enforcing LAWS is ALWAYS repressive in your book?
You have managed to create a new political category: RIGHT WING ANARCHIST!
Congratulations.
You seem so content there in South Florida not to have anything to do with Latin America--especially not to be informed about it. Guess the US is now white as the driven snow and never violates anyone's rights?
What about the Mexicans (your former paisanos, according to you) it hunts down, shoots and tortures and deports when all they did was cross the border?
What about the former Cat Stevens--who was deported before he even entered and all he did was have an apparently Arabic name?
WHEN IS YOUR SEDITIOUS HOUSEGUEST ARRIVING?
55 - moonraven
You are going to be one busy little anarchist, nails--between providing 24/7 nursing care for your seditious houseguest and running the Meals on Wheels in Prison operation for that aspirant to US citizenship, Cuban arch-terrorist Luis Posada Carriles!
Happy 2007!
56 - Esteban
Those who think Morales is a bastion of freedom for all, need to watch what will happen in the near future, if he has his way,and changes the Consitution.
¡Feliz Año Nuevo para todos!
57 - Dave Nalle
Wow, Marthe, you really are wooden headed.
Check out the funding source for Reporters Without Borders.
You understand that I brought up RSF in SUPPORT of your pro Morales position, right? Well, clearly not...
1. According to wikipedia, 19% of funding comes from Western governments--including from the US NED which funded the 2002 coup attempt in Venezuela.
So that means that they are overwhelmingly NOT funded by western governments, in fact when taken as a proportion of GNP the underrepresentation of western backers is so pronounced as to be suspicious.
And BTW, RSF recently downgraded the US 20 positions to a rating almost as low as Bolivia's mediocre rating, so they're not exactly pro-US despite your paranoid and contradictory rantings.
Dave
58 - moonraven
Now, Dave: Just how did I rant paranoidly by quoting from two CITED sources? That's a pretty good trick.
You were not trying to support MY (how did Morales become MINE, Homeboy?) position at all. You were trying to smear Venezuela, as usual.
Still too poor to visit Latin America and learn something about it? Maybe 2007 will bring you the bucks to tour the area and...be deported.
59 - moonraven
Esteban:
Webster's Online Dictionary has this for you:
Main Entry: bas·tion
Pronunciation: 'bas-ch&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Old Italian bastione, augmentative of bastia fortress, derivative from dialect form of bastire to build, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German besten to patch
1 : a projecting part of a fortification
2 : a fortified area or position
3 : STRONGHOLD 2
- bas·tioned /-ch&nd/ adjective
It does not refer to a person.
Make your New Year's resolution to get a GED.
60 - Dave Nalle
Now, Dave: Just how did I rant paranoidly by quoting from two CITED sources? That's a pretty good trick.
First, because you were using those sources to dispute a comment in which I agreed with you - that takes some seriously twisted mental processes.
Second, because your interpretation of the data you presented was directly contrary to what it actually indicated - suggesting fudnamental disassociation from reality.
Classic paranoid delusion. Everyone's out to get you, even those who are supporting you, and everything is a sign of a conspiracy, even when it's demonstrably not.
Dave
61 - Clavos
What about the Mexicans (your former paisanos, according to you) it hunts down, shoots and tortures and deports when all they did was cross the border?
Your wheels have finally come off totally, Martita.
Nobody in the US is shooting OR torturing paisanos who have simply crossed the border illegally, and damned few of them even get deported.
In fact, the REAL right wingers in the US and here on BC are up in arms because they think that nobody is doing anything to stop them, while both Dave and I have been vilified for saying that they are beneficial to the US and that a good guest worker program should be put in place so that the chaos can be eliminated, while still offering them the opportunity to work here legally.
62 - Clavos
Guess the US is now white as the driven snow and never violates anyone's rights?
So, if the US is violating people's rights, I can't say anything about Evo Morales?
Do you have ANY sense of logic, Martita?
63 - Clavos
I guess enforcing LAWS is ALWAYS repressive in your book?
Most definitely, when the laws themselves are repressive.
What about the former Cat Stevens--who was deported before he even entered and all he did was have an apparently Arabic name?
You're losing it, Marthe.
Cat Stevens was NOT "deported," he was denied entry into the US, and he's not a US citizen; he's a Brit. There's no parallel there.
64 - Dave Nalle
cember 31, 2006 @ 18:15PM â€" Clavos
Guess the US is now white as the driven snow and never violates anyone's rights?
So, if the US is violating people's rights, I can't say anything about Evo Morales?
That's an example of my favorite form of bad argument - it's related to 'guild by association' arguments, but it's subtly different, combining elements of the ad hominem fallacy as well. It's extraordinarily popular with the left.
It really needs its own unique name. It's basically argument by fallaciously disqualifying a participant because of his own perceived shortcomings when they aren't relevant to the issue being discussed.
A very poor form of argument given how popular it is.
Dave
65 - Clavos
Dave,
That's an example of my favorite form of bad argument
I believe it's called "Tuquoque"
Here's a website that has a definition and an excellent list of fallacies.
66 - moonraven
Wow, what a meltdown.
For sheer idiocy, Clavois takes the cake with his statement that "Nobody in the US is shooting OR torturing paisanos who have simply crossed the border illegally, and damned few of them even get deported."
And you say you are from Mexico?!?! Do you ever read a newspaper, or even watch t.v.? Start following the events in the State of Arizona regarding hunting and killing of undocumented Mexicans. The term is "cazamigrantes".
Come to Mexico, bigshot, and say anywhere what you wrote in the quote above. See what the reaction is.
67 - Dave Nalle
For sheer idiocy, Clavois takes the cake with his statement that "Nobody in the US is shooting OR torturing paisanos who have simply crossed the border illegally, and damned few of them even get deported."
I hate to support Marthe again, but living here in Texas I raised an eyebrow at that comment too. Ranchers on the border down here and in Arizona and New Mexico as well have been shooting 'rabbits' for years and just leaving the bodies where they lie or burying them in shallow graves. I'm not sure how much they do it these days with the heightened scrutiny on the border, but it was certainly commonplace up until the last decade or so.
Dave
68 - moonraven
In Arizona those racists who hunt down, torture and muurder undocumented folks from south of the border call themselves the "Minuteman Project".
Google their asses.
69 - Clavos
From an editorial, "Vocal Cuban Doctor At Risk In Bolivia," in The Miami Herald: (Free registration required)
"U.S. authorities, who helped to settle him in Bolivia six years ago, should offer Dr. Samartino a humanitarian parole to the United States. Laws here would protect his right to free speech and his beliefs"...
..."A presidential spokesman said that Dr. Samartino was in the country 'illegally, appearing on the communications media on various occasions to denigrate President Fidel Castro' (emphasis mine)
Dr. Samartino's real offense was to publicly criticize Havana's regime, particularly for its interference with the Morales government. He also has admitted to helping several of the Cuban doctors sent to work in Bolivia to defect.
'The only thing I have done here is to talk about Cuba's reality,' he told El Nuevo Herald reporter Wilfedo Cancio"...
...Some see Cuba's hand in the Bolivian action against Dr. Samartino. Even Bolivia's human-rights monitor, Public Defender Walter AlbarracÃn, strongly recommended against deporting Dr. Samartino."
Apparently even Morales' own government officials disagree with him.
That seems to correlate with his recent drop in the polls mentioned in the article.
70 - Dave Nalle
Again, moonraven can't tell fantasy from reality. The Minutemen have behaved extremely well. One or two isolated incidents are insignificant considering what they are trying to do and the conditions they are doing it under. They may be racist and nuts, but they are trying to play by the rules. If you're concerned about dead undocumented immigrants they aren't the ones to point the finger at.
Dave
71 - moonraven
Dave,
They are just ONE group of cazamigrantes.
The fact that they are racist and nuts DOES bother me. As it should any sane person.
Trying to play by the rules, indeed.
72 - moonraven
Geez, Now clavos quotes an EDITORIAL from anti-Castro rag, The Miami Herald, and calls that DOCUMENTATION? Next he will be citing his own OPINION piece and calling it documentation.
No way, Jose. Opinions are neither facts nor information. They are ALWAYS propaganda.
I am surprised that you aren't ranting and raving at YOUR rights being violated because of TODAY's new from Bolivia: That US citizens now will have to go to the Bolivian consulate and apply for visas in order to enter the country.
On the other hand, since you don't keep up with current events, maybe I should NOT be surprised....
73 - Clavos
"A presidential spokesman said that Dr. Samartino was in the country 'illegally, appearing on the communications media on various occasions to denigrate President Fidel Castro'"
What part of direct quote don't you understand?
74 - moonraven
Lack of understanding both the English and Spanish languages is YOUR problem, clavos.
That and lying, of course.
75 - Clavos
Heh.