I am always very happy to have the considered opinions of our crack staff after the debate (or speech, or other major event) is over, but I would also very much like to see real-time thoughts as the debate occurs - some live blogging as it were.
And since we value the contributions of our readers to the highest degree, we'd love to have your input also. As the final debate between George W. Bush and John Kerry unfolds tonight, please jot whatever random thoughts you may have in the comments section below, which will become the real body of this post.
Be spontaneous, don't worry about fully formed thoughts or even necessarily complete sentences, just let us know your reactions to what could be the pivotal event of the campaign (they're basically tied at the moment). Thanks!
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Eric Olsen
I will start by saying that Kerry is supposed to have the edge in debating and in domestic policy, so if Bush does better than expected, does he win?
2 - Eric Olsen
Bush improved dramatically from debate 1 to 2 - can he improve as much again? If so, he wins.
3 - Steve Rhodes
One suggestion for debate watching is to see it with a lot of people.
I watched Friday's debate in a packed room and although I couldn't hear every word over the crowd response, it was a lot of fun.
Tonight, I'll be at City Lights where Stephen Elliot will be reading from his book on the Democratic primaries afterwards (details on the event are a bit down the page).
So unless there is an open wi-fi hotspot nearby I won't be able to liveblog, but I'll read this with interest when I get home.
Oh, the funniest debate blogging is at wonkette.
4 - Eric Olsen
very good advice, Steve, thanks, have fun!
5 - visualsimplicity
Yeah but if you do watch it with a lot of people, it's hard to take stuff into consideration when those "lots of people" you watch it with are extremely biased towards one end. That's not good, cause all they'll do is make fun of one side. Balance please.
6 - Hal Pawluk
So far (27 minutes into it), Bush is sounding and looking like a loser, not as good as he was in the last debate, has spit in the right corner of his mouth.
Kerry is strong, makes his points clearly (about time) and isn't rattled by Bush quoted numbers from his Senate record.
I also don't see the receiver that might or might not have bee strapped to W's back for the last debate - he either doesn't have one, or I have an explanation for his wide-legged walk.
7 - Hal Pawluk
36 minutes: Surprisingly, I like how Schieffer is handling the questions.
On his own show, he was clearly a right-wing sympathizer; here, he's simply asking reasonably pointed question.
Good work.
8 - Hal Pawluk
45 minutes: Just noticed that the Bush camera man/woman is a Bush fan - s/he has increased the zoom so Bush looks bigger (you can barely see the lights, and none of the podium).
9 - Hal Pawluk
56 minutes: Kerry segues nicely to turn the answer on minimum wage into a pitch to women (which he definitely needs to do).
10 - Hal Pawluk
1:15 - the tighter zoom is working against Bush, makes it easier to see his nervousness and insecurity, flustered manner and the incipient return of the "funny faces."
11 - Hal Pawluk
Kerry 52, Bush 39, any way you care to measure it.
The end.
12 - bob2112
My president needs to master the English language better than me, period. I don't want evasive good ol' boy double-speak. If you’re male & white, maybe Bush is OK. If you evade a question about jobs then turn it into your redundant shitty record on education, you are hiding from something. When you don't directly answer the question about appointing judges who will attempt to reverse Roe v. Wade, you are saying you want women & girls to have no choice but to resolve pregnancy issues on their own (unsanitary, coat hanger, trash can fetus society)
I don't hate Bush. I hate the system he represents. These free pass debates & lowered expectations purposefully make all of us look stupid. What is more dangerous: Neo-con's in power, or The Kenneth Starr/ Karl Rove Resistance Brigade? As long as these guys are free & Americans, we can just forget it.
13 - Big Time Patriot
Well, I think it was pretty much a draw, they both had some good and bad moments. But, I'm a little worried about our future relations with Mexico.
George Bush says people of Mexico not worth their salt...
''If you can make 50 cents in the heart of Mexico, for example, or make $5 here in America, $5.15, you're going to come here if you're worth your salt.'' 'The third presidential debate' -http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6243023/
I may be missing something here, but didn't George Bush just say if any Mexican was worth anything they would be in America? I just hope all those saps back in Mexico don't take this insult too badly.
14 - Mac Diva
I watched the debate on big movie screens after John Edwards spoke in Portland this evening. (I'll have more to say about Edwards in a blog entry tomorrow.) Being in a crowd, instead of watching on television, was definitely a different experience. I was able to watch faces and hear comments as the candidates answered (in Bush's case, didn't answer) the questions. Most interesting were the impromptu reactions. For Kerry, those were mainly nods of approval, 'uh huhs' and 'yeahs.' For Bush, there were bewildered expressions as he meandered meaninglessly or repeated trite claims about the 'success' of his education plan. When he implied he was inept in regard to illegal immigration as Gov. of Texas, people snickered. His mispronunciations also resulted in giggles. More serious persons raised eyebrows or shuck their heads.
In my opinion, Kerry's best moments were when he corrected Bush's claims about No Child Left Behind, tax cuts and health care. His worst moment was his closing speech. He chose to just be personable. I think he should have summarized his stances on the issues, instead. Bush's best moment was probably his closing statement, since Kerry did not get a chance to refute his claims. His worst moment, was. . .well, most of his moments. He came across as someone naturally defensive who misrepresents failure as success. Throwing out numbers, with no context, did not help. It made him look silly.
Steve, ditto about watching in a crowd. Having at least 5,000 fellow viewers was interesting.
Hal, seeing Bush on a really big screen makes his tics even more obvious. Having a crooked mouth doesn't help him, either.
Casper, the crowd was never openly hostile to Bush. People seemed more disappointed than angry.
Bob, true. Bush did not actually answer the questions about how he will defund and fund Social Security at the same time, whether he opposes affirmative action, if he will appoint judges to overturn Roe v. Wade, if the back door draft is fair, etc.
Oops! I meant to save some of this for my blog entry.
15 - Bob A. Booey
I disagree with you on one thing, Mac.
Kerry's personal statement wasn't historic, but it was necessary. Kerry's big problem is that he's lacked any big vision or rhetorical flourishes that connect with people. Domestic policy's where you do that and where Clinton made a living. It also segued better from the last question, which was the softball about women and wives. Going back to hardball attacks might make good lawyering, but it would have looked completely out of place and reinforced people's doubts about Kerry's careerism and lack of concern for their problems in that moment.
I thought Kerry did pass up some good moments for attack lines during most of the debate that I would have loved hearing: "Out of the mainstream, Mr President? The American people recognize desperation in these attacks and realize this administration is out of touch with their problems: the lost jobs, the lack of health care, the failing schools, an insecure Homeland, and a failing war in Iraq that costs more lives every day. That's the American mainstream I'm fighting for. My values and my budget priorities aren't for sale to special interests and the wealthiest 1%, whose values ARE outside the values of the American middle class."
Kerry spent more than enough time prosecuting Bush's record and laying out the critique of his domestic agenda. What Kerry has lacked is a vision of his own agenda -- I think that's still somewhat lacking, even though I think his closing statement pointed at a promising beginning (if too late) for "that vision thing." In fact, there were a few lines that were almost identical to the vision speech I wanted him to make in these debates that I wrote about in a previous topic I'm too lazy to find the link to. He said SOME of the things people need to hear to be motivated to turn out and vote for him, rather than just wanting to vote against Bush.
Kerry won the debates as a whole and has made this an even race as a result, reviving his campaign off of life support from a month ago. Undecideds lean toward him over Bush, which is why Karl Rove and the Bush team are focusing most of their energy on turning out the conservative base. Kerry's base is much less motivated and principled than the Bush base (for many of whom voting is literally religious duty) and later-registering: the data now shows that of early-registering voters, most favor Bush. Of newer registering voters, Kerry has the edge. This means it's CRITICAL that Kerry's volunteers on the ground get as many voters registered as possible in key swing states. Kerry and Edwards need to inspire as many people as possible to turn out and vote -- attacks don't do that as much as vision does. All those hardcore liberals (the former Deaniacs) who are convinced enough by the hard facts to vote for Kerry are already with him and have been for a while. What he needs to pick up are the fairly non-political, blue-collar families who face economic insecurity and want someone to show they care. They already have doubts about Bush being out of touch (as they felt about his father in the early 1990s) -- Kerry certainly could have driven this point home more -- and they need Kerry to show that he's not too blueblood and wonkish to show a little heart and view their problems as something more than mere managerial issues for Senatorial debate.
Every ad in swing states is now basically a negative issue attack ad and has been for weeks -- the criticisms are already in people's minds. Now, Kerry needs to show vision on the stump in Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania and bring it home by connecting with voters. If he can, he'll be President. If he can't relate to them and articulate jobs and health care in a way that resonates with their hopes and fears, he doesn't deserve to be President and won't be.
That is all.
16 - Steve Rhodes
Visual, I can make up my own mind even when watching something with a crowd. Just because everyone clapped at the end of Titanic didn't make me like it.
Besides, it was more interesting watching it with people like Joshua Bearman and Zephyr Teachout (who are both in Stephen Elliott's book), and Lawrence Ferlinghetti who has more integrity than Kerry and Bush combined.
17 - Bob A. Booey
This was, however, Bush's best peformance of the two debates I watched. I missed Debate Two because, well, it was a Friday night, and you know how that is. The ladies know what I'm talkin about.
That is all.
18 - Eric Olsen
on NBC after the debate they had a focus group with 6 voters from Pennsylvania, it was Bush 3, Kerry 2, one still undecided - the Kerry killer: his economic numbers just don't add up, nice words that we can't afford. If Bush doesn't ram this down everyone's throat for the next 3 weeks, he's an idiot.
19 - bhw
And Kerry is an idiot if he doesn't turn that right back around on Bush and ask who's more apt to be able to pay for his programs, a guy who keeps signing spending bills while cutting taxes, or a guy who will undo some of the tax cuts to pay for his programs.
Kerry didn't really do it last night in the debate -- can he do it for the next few weeks?
Oh, great. Two idiots to choose from!
20 - Shark
Loved the spitball on the side of George W's lip. Finally! --A Right-Wing Nut Bar who is literally foaming at the mouth.
Loved the camera zoom that removed the podium from the Bush medium shot. Equality of size on camera! Another great thing about Democracy!
Bush is full of abstract jingoisms. That's all he can say, since the reality of his four years is a disaster no matter how you slice it.
Good gawd, what's up with Bush's "education" shit!? Is that some sort of rhetorical SOMA meant to shut down synapse connections in the listener? Is this the new equivalent to the "9/11. 9/11. We're safer. Got Saddam. 9/11. 9/11. We're safer. Got Saddam..." hypnotic mantra?
SHUT THE FUCK UP. Ask any teacher how the schools have done with the "No Child Left Behind" and they'll tell you it's a disaster.
I'm amazed that Kerry never brings up the ol' "You've had four years; why didn't you push that ___ [fill in the abstract jingoism] program during your first term?"
Bush apparently has ideas for the future and well-being of the average American only during election time.
BIGGEST BULLSHIT [BUSHIT] OF THE NIGHT:
I loved Bush telling an imaginary unemployed man that as President, he'll make it possible for him to take some classes at his local JUNIOR COLLEGE and get some new training for a new job?!
Good gawd. I know about two dozen friends/associates who are in their 50s, have at least one college degree and thirty or so years in their field that ARE OUT OF WORK. And like yours truly, it ain't because I need an accounting 101 course at my local Junior College.
I wanted to scream.
===============
900 lb. Gorillas missing from all debates:
1) America's OIL addiction + OIL as a finite resource.
2) Environmental rape by Bush administration
3) Palestinians - vs - Israel
4) split-screen showing MLB playoffs
21 - bhw
Shark, I agree with you 100% about Bush's comment that he'd tell a worker whose job went overseas to go to community college and get an education.
The problem is that Kerry did NOT do a THING with the softball Bush lobbed. The easiest response in the world would have been, "Are you saying that you'll ask someone with a Master's degree in computer science to go back to community college and get trained for a job with a much lower education requirement and lower salary than the one he lost to outsourcing? Is that really what you'd say?"
It just goes to show you that the debates are about tossing out a series of sound bites and not about actually debating each other. Kerry went with some script instead of responding to what Bush actually said. Viewers at home shouldn't be the only ones who picked up on the idiocy of Bush's comment.
But maybe that's because both Kerry and Bush are Yalies who think that anyone who loses a job must be misundereducated.
22 - bob2112
I was disappointed in Kerry striking out on the flu vaccines from Canada. It was the perfect T-ball setup! Don't forget, Canada may be a source of Third World prescription poisons!
In hindsight though, Bush just dared Kerry. I believe that the rebuttals are meticulously chosen to avoid each other’s true evil. These fraternal 'brothers' must be very careful not to go too far on each other. They both have every shred of dirt on the other, & they're both afraid what the other has could be worse for their lives beyond Election Day. They don't hate each other that much, if at all. I think we are really watching a dreaded Venus vs. Serena Williams Wimbledon final. Think about it, Kerry needs the Pharmaceutical lobby just as much as Bush does. If he went there on the Canada 'penalty kick’, it would be like a quarterback talking shit about the mothers of his pro-bowl offensive linemen. Count the sacks on him at the end of the game if he doesn't leave on a stretcher before it's over.
If no one believes me, ask yourselves why isn't 'Chappaquiddick' the ultimate Republican weapon. Why wasn't this pathetic cover-up, Ted Kennedy's kiss of death to the Democratic Party a long time ago? I believe it morphed into political suicide to whomever wishes to go there. Ted Kennedy got a free pass. (The likes of Bush's in yesterday’s debate) The man lost two BIG brothers to violent deaths in public. Cowardly leaving the scene of a 'whore' drowned in your car shouldn't be the end of a guy. Unless of course, you want your dirty laundry on the front pages. Keep on talkin' about Sandra Levy & see who gets dug up next?
23 - Hal Pawluk
I don't know why CNN wasted their time taking a poll - I gave them the figures yesterday (comment 11 above):
24 - bob2112
See, nobody talks to me. Am I too crazy to respond to? I'm beginning to believe everyon is afraid to really say what they think!
25 - Mac Diva
Bhw, I agree Kerry missed opportunities. The summation. (Though Bob's reasoning about that is what he most likely thinks.) Failing to point out that a class at a junior college will not pay the rent or mortgage or do most of the things a job does. He totally missed responding to the question about stem cells. Christopher Reeve's death would have been the perfect opportunity to restate Kerry supports research on embryonic stem cells. He should have mentioned the U. of Michigan case, in which the Bush administration emphatically opposed affirmation action, during that question. And, hammered home that, to the extent education is available, it is available to everyone, and is not affirmative action. Unemployment? Both the games played with unemployment stats and the higher unemployment among minorities could have been hammered.
But, I can't agree with what Eric said about the tiny focus group he watched. I saw a similar report in which a seemingly simple-minded woman said she was changing her mind because Bush mentioned education. She seemed not to grasp that for all his talk about education, Bush's policies -- on Pell grants, No Child Left Behind, dropout rates -- have failed miserably. I believe we insult much of the electorate if we believe it to be that stupid. Hopefully, handing them a mindless mantra is not sufficient.