Michele Catalano: It's not rule by torture chambers and execution. There's a big difference. Eventually Iraq will govern itself. They'll need our help to get there. Democracy isn't installed overnight.
Moderator: Who has the best policy for the U.S. to gracefully and quickly reduce its number of troops in Iraq, Bush or Kerry?
Neal Pollack: We're screwed in Iraq. There is no graceful exit. I think that John Kerry would probably try to do the right thing but fail because there is no right thing. I think that George Bush would do whatever was politically expedient for him, and that will not be graceful. It hasn't been so far.
Michele Catalano: I'll agree that it hasn't been graceful at all. I can't sit here and say everything is going great, because it's not. But I don't think that Kerry's idea to bring in France and other countries is going to work either,because they don't want do it.
Neal Pollack: I just don't believe the Bush Administration's talk about democracy. I think it's a convenient word for them. There is no way in hell these elections are happening in January.
Michele Catalano: It's certainly a matter of belief in your candidate. I do believe the talk about democracy and I can still see it happening. Mistakes were definitely made, but progress is also being made.
Neal Pollack: And as for no rule by torture chambers, I strongly disagree. Abu Ghraib was a torture prison. Because we have a free press, it got nipped in the bud, but that stuff would still be going on if it hadn't been reporter. That's a substantial difference between Hussein and us, but I don't think that should even be a question.
Michele Catalano: I just can't compare Abu Ghraib to the years and years of what Saddam did to his people. I'm not justifying what happened there, it was horrible.
Neal Pollack: Again. We shouldn't even be having the comparison discussion. Do you honestly think that a Democratic administration, or even a sane Republican one, would have concocted a legal justification for torture?
Michele Catalano: It's not like people are not being held responsible for their actions there.
Neal Pollack: That's what gets me. The complicity at high levels. The people who really need to be held accountable are the people who got us into the mess in the first place. Yes, Lynndie England should be punished. But not INSTEAD of Donald Rumsfeld.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Eric Olsen
you rock Dawn, really looking forward to this, thanks!
And thanks to Michele and Neal
2 - Jim Carruthers
Neal Pollack? _That_ Neal Pollack, America's Greatest Living Writer, a man who I've seen take the stage backed by a bunch of high school kids using the punk vernacular, and just blew the roof off the club, a fella who sweats torrents of both rock and roll?
No contest, was this debate organized by Don King?
3 - Zappatista
So, where's the debate at?
Did someone maybe chicken out?
4 - Dawn Olsen
No one chickened out, it was in a chat format, it needs to be edited for blogformat and it will go up some time tomorrow (since I have to edit it and all.)
Also, please don't disparage participants - both are equally matched in their ability to discuss the topics.
Not to mention, this is a bipartisan project, let's be nice. Okay? GOOD!
5 - Jim Carruthers
By the way, what I posted which was [edited] was so unbelievably filthy and subversive, you couldn't see it. You have to wait for the pay-for-view with the naked drunk college chicks, at which Mr. Pollack will be signing breasts.
6 - Jim Carruthers
bipartisan project
Oh, man, that's my favourite section at the porno store! I love that bipartisan on bipartisan action.
7 - Zappatista
Edited?
Is that like a time delay? C'mon, post the raw chat log. It'll save you hours of editing and avoid people like me checking the kerning and fonts.
8 - Lono
I am really looking forward to the debate being posted. Might I suggest allowing the posting of two formats... one of them unedited. We're all adults here, and the good Duke taught us all how to swear. So, I say sock it to us! Trust me, they wouldn't let just anyone register the name 'I am correct'!
Thanks,
Lono
Parker, CO
9 - Eric Olsen
Fear not free-speechers: "editing" means correcting typos and formatting for print. That's all. In addition, Michele had some technical difficulties and some of hers got garbled. That's all there is to it.
10 - catherine
where's the debate?! i'm dying to read it.
11 - Dawn
It will be up as soon as I have time to put it up. Until then, shut yer pieholes.
12 - Tom Johnson
Maybe for future examples it'd be better to not say "The debate is tonight!!!!" for something no one can see until it's been edited. Since outsiders can't actually witness the debate, as the big headline suggests, all that's going to result until the debate transcript shows up is a bunch of people whining "Where is it?!"
13 - Dawn
Here is the situation, we were half way through the debate and Michele's basement started flooding (she lives in NY and Jeanne hit) and she, Neal nor myself wished to see her get shocked or have her computer fried. We were forced to cut it short and since that time Michele has been extremely busy with life commitments and Neal is leaving for a book tour on Friday.
I am doing my best to piece things together, but everyone is busy. I am sorry it's not up yet, but shit happens.
Also, I'd appreciate - well actually not just appreciate but expect anyone who participates in comments to keep their comments on topic and refrain from personal attacks.
Unless of course, they want me to become very agitated and act like a total bitch. Which I am very close to doing.
Thanks.
14 - Jim Carruthers
So I guess this means we can't behave like we do at most political debates and yell: "Show Us Your Tits!"
Or is that at Mardi Gras in NOLA?
15 - Eric Olsen
The debate is up - many were the impediments, but they were not to be denied!!
Thanks Michele, Neal, Dawn!
16 - Jim Carruthers
Question for Michele: how in any way is the relationship between the USA and its neighbours in any way different from the Soviet Union and Finland in the 70s?
As somebody outside the USA, I only see our government as trying to calm a violent more-heavily armed than anybody in the world psychopath to keep them from going on a thrill-kill spree. And generally being ignored, even like their bestest friend Spike.
How do you intend to fix this?
Or if you don't, why shouldn't your country be given the Old Yeller solution?
17 - Jim Carruthers
I forgot to ask a question of Neal:
Will you show us your tits?
And how will they solve the increasing decline in living standards?
18 - Bob A. Booey
I don't doubt Michele's story at all, but she was getting her ass kicked.
I will concede that Neal was much more verbose and said about 3 sentences to every one of Michele's, but go Neal Pollack. It was obviously very hard for Michele, a blogger, to debate a real writer. But I was surprised at how good a debater Pollack was, given that you all described him as a satirist.
Even you right-wingers have to admit that, as the debate went, the winner of this debate was the anti-war position. The pro-war arguments were all vague generalities without evidence or facts -- Michele could only offer philosophical statements about democracy and vague statements about terror.
I call it a TKO, long before the basement flooding.
That is all.
19 - Bob A. Booey
I think debates like this are a good idea and very entertaining. Good job, Dawn.
P.S. -- Bash them fruits.
That is all.
20 - Zappatista
Thanks for doing this Dawn, it seems like a great idea and hopefully your next attempt won't be marred by a hurricane.
I tend to agree with Bob though, M. tended to fall back on generalities (Saddam bad. Freedom good.) though this could have been at least in part due to being distracted. Still, I'm not convinced these folks were matched very well -- I enjoy both their work but they have very different styles. Ms. Catalano writes with her heart while Pollack writes with a detached cynicism honed by years of practice. Pollack is also a performer and accustomed to public speaking, something I assume Catalano is not.
I understand how the contrast may have been appealing, but these two aren't even from the same planet.
21 - Dawn
I think the onus was on Neal from the beginning. Let's face it, Kerry and crew haven't done a very good job convincing anyone that they can defend this country or even that they have clear agenda to do so - and I am a Kerry supporter.
Whoever made the strongest points (and that depends on your perspective)this was a great opening to some real discussion that needs to be had prior to the actual election.
22 - Zappatista
Dawn, I disagree and see it just the other way. Considering this administrations performance in Iraq to date if I was a Bush supporter I'd be feeling pretty defensive. Because Bush is in power the onus is him/them/they to defend what by all appearances is a failed plan. I'm a Kerry supporter who happens to dislike the man intensely, however the Dems could run a kumquat against Bush with identical results -- this is a referendum on the current administrations performance and the burden is on them to convince me why they should get another four years.
The rote recitation of talking points: "We're bringing democracy to Iran," and "Things are better," aren't enough for me. How are they better? Replacing institutional torture with a more media friendly series of 'aberrations' doesn't cut it. Since when do we judge ourselves by the standards of a tyrant? Sure, we're better than Saddam, that's a given, but are we as good as we should be and can someone else do a better job?
23 - rhodeymark
Pollack was kicking ass? I don't think so, except when he throws out fever swamp talking points like "The fact of the matter is that we went to war in Iraq because we needed a permanent military stronghold in the Middle East so we didn't have to be totally dependent on Saudi oil." Mike Moore must be his debate coach. Didja hear that Terry McAuliffe was implicated in the Nigeria violence, driving up the price of oil pre-election? You did now. If Saddam didn't have WMD then what did he use in Halabja? Didn't we have to assume that his verified stockpile was not destroyed when he refused to account for it? Has everyone forgotten the idiotic shell game he was running? Syria is now making acceptable noises imo only because they are uncomfortable with the deal they made previously with the (captured) devil.
24 - Shark
Thanks for the work, Dawn.
It was almost interesting -- sorta like watching a debate between a thoughtful intellectual and a Bush commercial.
re: Basement flooding --- Maybe God really is on our side!
Neal = smart and grounded in reality
Michele = parrot of Bush buzzwords, vague generalities, and deluded B.S.
Oh, and did I mention that we've lost Iraq?
25 - Dawn
You know what I think? NO, well fucking shut up and listen because I am going to tell you.
It doesn't matter a good goddamn who won, what person made good points or if we all get blown up tomorrow. The liberals here and everywhere are a bunch of fucking shitheads, and that includes me (YES, THAT'S RIGHT I AM "DISGUSTING" "CONTEMPABLE" LIBERAL - THERE I SAID IT). We have DONE NOT A THING to win this election. Fucking Atrios that jerkoff won't even participate in a debate even though he has the traffic and audience to make a difference.
IN FACT I CAN'T GET ONE FUCKING LIBERAL TO AGREE TO A DEBATE, so don't sit there and take pot shots at those who did while you are skulking in the background saying stupid shit.
You have something positive to add and you want to share it with the world.
HERE IS MY EMAIL: DMDO1016@AOL.COM
I have list of conservatives just waiting to make their point.