The fun thing about the immigration debate is that it never goes away. I started writing on the topic a year ago, firmly convinced that it was a vital issue to address because we might have a new immigration policy at any moment. Now I realize that I can keep writing on it forever, because the anti-immigration ideologues will never come to their senses. So we'll never get any kind of immigration policy passed, and bloggers and pundits can feel free to enjoy the topic forever.
Why this should be the case is a bit mystifying. The facts about the undocumented immigrant population are all there in black and white. Our tradition of welcoming immigrants is indisputable - it's on the Statue of Liberty after all. The benefits of immigration for the country are obvious and undeniable. The ridiculous impracticality of deporting 12 million people we can't even identify has already been clearly demonstrated. Support for a realistic immigration solution crosses party lines and unites people who would normally be enemies but just happen to have good sense.
Yet one political faction prefers rhetoric over reality and would rather hold out for the impossible dream of total interdiction than implement sensible policies which would limit immigration and address the nation's needs. It almost makes you wonder if they would rather not solve the problem so they can keep bitching about it for the next few elections.
Perhaps I can do my part to move the debate along by going over the facts one more time.
• Illegal immigrants don't increase your taxes.
Surveys of immigrants show that they actually come with the expectation that welfare and social service benefits will not be available to them. What's more, per capita, they actually use welfare benefits less than the native population. Studies show that only 2% of Mexican immigrants have ever used welfare or social security and only 3% have ever used food stamps. In comparison, 84% pay income tax and none of them file a return. Because so many of them pay into the tax and social security and Medicaid systems without being able to retrieve any of that money or benefits, the government actually makes a substantial profit on each illegal who comes here. This has resulted in a surplus in social security funds of more than $50 billion a year just from payments applied to fictional social security numbers. After factoring in services provided, on average during his time in the US, an illegal immigrant will contribute $80,000 more to the government than he consumes in services. The one negative tax impact is that they act to transfer money from the states who pay most of the services, especially education, to the federal government which gets most of the tax benefits.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Victor Plenty
Well-reasoned, fact-based, and insightful analysis of immigration policy? What next?
Will we see people politely agreeing to disagree on the precise listing of the top ten guitarists of all time? Fans of Michael Jackson admitting he might have made a few blunders in recent years?
Dogs and cats living together?
2 - Dave Nalle
A certain editor complained that this was too long to read, so I'm glad you slogged through it, Victor. It could have been a lot longer, because I have yet to look at the flip-side of this issue, the flaws in the argument of those who want to shut down the borders and kick all the illegals out. I've had first hand experience with that during a recent period of about two weeks when they rounded up several thousand illegals in the Austin area and many businesses suddenly ground to a halt.
Dave
3 - Christopher Rose
Nice work, Dave. Keep flying the flag of the voice of reason.
4 - Clavos
Well presented and well documented, Dave.
Any thoughts on the mechanics/criteria of implementing a guest worker program? My Mexican brother and sister want to sign up (just kidding about the siblings-they've dual citizenship).
5 - Nancy
The sources you cite have their own agendas to skew. Except for large companies (like the carpet mfgs of Dalton, Ga - check out today's W.P.), very few if any private employers - the bulk of those hiring illegals - bother to either withhold taxes or pay them - which is after all the whole point of hiring illegals: you don't have to pay taxes on them. It's a form of tax cheating by the employer, and a well-known one. And my contacts within the IRS tell me that IRS figures of illegals paying any kinds of taxes to the federal government are just about nil: they don't pay taxes. Not social security, not income tax, nothing, nada. They don't file under any kind of ID number, because they're afraid they'll be arrested & deported. Mind you, this isn't info from some think-tank somewhere; this is the IRS itself.
Maybe where you are, illegals are nice, law-abiding citizens, but here in the DC/MD/VA area, they account disproportionately for the bulk of crime, especially gang-related crime - and it's increasing, especially in counties like Fairfax, VA & Montgomery, MD; and it isn't just illegals from El Salvador: now it's the kids of illegals from Mexico, etc. So now we not only have to educate their bastards for free, we have to entertain them, too, in order to keep them out of gang activities.
Not to mention the overwhelming use of hospital emergency rooms as primary care medical facilities by illegals, again for the same reasons: the emergency rooms are required to treat them for free, and they know the records will be confidential. In this area, hospitals are running record operating deficits thanks to being overrun by illegals taking advantage of free services at the expense of the legitimate taxpaying public.
Again, check out the WP article: in far too many areas, the schools also are being overwhelmed by the spawn of these vermin, sometimes as high as the 60-70 percentile.
And the current results of the last amnesty program have already put the lie to your statement that an easier immigration policy would not result in an influx of illegals: obviously, it certainly did, or we wouldn't be having this blog.
Finally, we get back to that old quote about "what part of "ILLEGAL" do you not understand?"
I don't have any problems with LEGAL immigrants. I do with illegals. As far as I'm concerned, anybody who starts off their life here committing a deliberate crime is NOT a good, decent person, and certainly ought not be rewarded by being given citizenship status, or even by being allowed to continue living here. Those who are here should be rounded up, no exceptions, men-women-kids - and shipped back to wherever they came from. If they want to work here, they can damn well apply for a visa - and stick to it. Those violating it should be shot on sight.
6 - Clavos
Those who are here should be rounded up, no exceptions, men-women-kids - and shipped back to wherever they came from.
What about the kids born here, who are Americans?
And the logistics of finding and transporting 12 million people?
If they want to work here, they can damn well apply for a visa - and stick to it. Those violating it should be shot on sight.
Well, THAT'S certainly in keeping with the Constitution and Bill Of Rights.
7 - Nancy
Those born here of illegal parents are not entitled to automatic citizenship, and should not be. Tancredo is absolutely correct in proposing in his bill that such a privilege should be revoked.
8 - Victor Plenty
Let's revoke the senseless practice of granting automatic citizenship to anyone, ever. Why extend unequal privileges to anyone just because they happened to be in this country when they were born, or just because their parents happened to be U.S. citizens?
It shouldn't matter if your parents are American citizens or not. If you want to be a citizen of the United States, you should be required to meet certain minimum standards. Finish school. Get a job. Prove you can be a law-abiding, contributing member of the community. Pass the same citizenship exam we require immigrants to take. (Could even half the anti-immigrant bigots pass that exam?)
If you drop out of school, or get caught jaywalking, or fail the citizenship exam, it's deportation for you! No matter who your daddy and mommy are.
(You know in your heart, this proposal is just as sane and reasonable as anything Nancy proposes.)
9 - Clavos
You're completely wrong there, Nancy. As of now, and until the law is changed, anyone born on US soil, regardless of parentage, IS a US citizen.
The 14th Amendment guarantees this right under the principle of jus soli, right of birthplace:
"all persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States."
This right extends to the children of illegal aliens, which is why Tancredo (unconstitutionally, IMO) is trying to get it changed.
10 - Jon Sobel
"first hand experience...when they rounded up several thousand illegals in the Austin area and many businesses suddenly ground to a halt."
That might make for an effective corollary article to this one - I'd sure be interested in reading about this.
Nancy: if we're talking about changing citizenship rules, maybe we should consider taking it away from people who call other human beings "vermin" and their children "bastards." I'm sorry some immigrants in your area seem to be causing problems. But we cannot solve these problems by losing our own humanity.
11 - Victor Plenty
Jon, Dave has already written an article on the Austin raids, and I went ahead and looked it up for you. Enjoy.
12 - Roi B. Davis
FYI on Yahoo News (Christian Science Mointor)
American-born children shouldn't be deported
13 - Nancy
Actually, I think requiring all persons, US-born or not, to meet certain standards before being granted citizenship (or at least the right to vote) would be an excellent idea. Personally, I think those citizens who don't bother to vote in at least 2 national elections should lose their right to vote, & should have to take citizenship classes, etc. before getting it back again.
But in any event, I still think illegals should not be given the same rights as citizens, which is what is being agitated for by the misguided & those politicos who are pandering for (they hope) future votes.
14 - Jon Sobel
Victor, thanks for pointing out the earlier article, I had missed it.
I do not think New York City, where I live, would function without its illegal immigrants.
That is not to say illegal immigration is good. It is to say that, just as Dave argues, there is a need to reform the system so that these people can enter the country with some sort of legal guest worker status. And we must face reality: during the transitional time between now and then, we must deal with the millions already illegally here. They must be somehow worked into the program.
It's just dumb to keep saying "What part of 'illegal' don't you understand?" That's like saying let's turn the whole of the the western hemisphere back over to the native Americans because Europeans took it over by force. There's idealism, and there's plain, in-your-face reality.
Obviously I'm right, since I'm agreeing with both Dave Nalle and George W. Bush.
15 - Dave Nalle
If you haven't noticed already, as demonstrated in #13, Nancy has some rather extreme authoritarian inclinations.
The sources you cite have their own agendas to skew. Except for large companies (like the carpet mfgs of Dalton, Ga - check out today's W.P.), very few if any private employers - the bulk of those hiring illegals - bother to either withhold taxes or pay them - which is after all the whole point of hiring illegals: you don't have to pay taxes on them. It's a form of tax cheating by the employer, and a well-known one. And my contacts within the IRS tell me that IRS figures of illegals paying any kinds of taxes to the federal government are just about nil: they don't pay taxes. Not social security, not income tax, nothing, nada. They don't file under any kind of ID number, because they're afraid they'll be arrested & deported. Mind you, this isn't info from some think-tank somewhere; this is the IRS itself.
While all sources have some sort of agenda, the figue of 80% of illegals paying into the federal tax system appears to be accurate. It came from research done by the census bureau. In addition, all illegals pay sales tax which goes into state coffers. I used the sources I did because they compiled a lot of information in one place, but if you look at the articles I referenced, all of them have links or footnotes or other references to prove their assertions. The claims you pass on from your IRS sources are questionable. Because employers are required by law to check ID on all workers, pretty much all illegals except for day workers now uses some sort of falsified documents, and the employers end up paying payroll taxes on them. If Social Security is getting $50 billion a year from illegals - as they have publicly stated - then the IRS is getting at least $200 billion a year from them, so your friends at the IRS are just wrong, or trying to cover up the fact that they can't do anything about the profusion of fake IDs.
And here's another thought. If we were to switch the the 'fair tax' system, every illegal would pay their full share of taxes and get nothing at all back, guaranteed, since it's a sales-tax based system.
Maybe where you are, illegals are nice, law-abiding citizens, but here in the DC/MD/VA area, they account disproportionately for the bulk of crime, especially gang-related crime
This was addressed in the article. The illegals you have in the DC area are mostly Salvadorans - remember, I lived there for many years. Among the Salvadoran population are many members of the gang MS-13, which is one of the most violent and criminal gangs in the US. They even have ties to Al Qaeda through the drug networks and are suspected of smuggling terrorists into the US. Here in Austin we have Mexicans, and they are good people who just want to work. And they're also more than 2/3 of the illegal population nationwide. The bad immigrants are few in number, but very bad indeed.
Not to mention the overwhelming use of hospital emergency rooms as primary care medical facilities by illegals, again for the same reasons: the emergency rooms are required to treat them for free, and they know the records will be confidential. In this area, hospitals are running record operating deficits thanks to being overrun by illegals taking advantage of free services at the expense of the legitimate taxpaying public.
Again, statistics and studies show this not to be true. It's a common misconception. Most immigrants are young and require little medical care and they are mostly male so they don't have kids who need care either. Most Mexican immigrants pay for what medical care they do get in cash.
And again, things are different with the 20% or so of the immigrant population who come from someplace other than Mexico. Just as they are more likely to commit crimes they are more likely to use public services. They don't have the same work ethic or sense of responsibility. And, of course, they more than pay for it in taxes.
Again, check out the WP article: in far too many areas, the schools also are being overwhelmed by the spawn of these vermin, sometimes as high as the 60-70 percentile.
This is the one area of services that Mexicans DO use, because they need to learn English and one way to do it is to send their kids to schools and then learn English from the kids. This is a GOOD thing. We need them to learn English and adapt to the culture and unlike other immigrant groups they make an effort to do it.
Finally, we get back to that old quote about "what part of "ILLEGAL" do you not understand?"
I didn't say ONE word about amnesty in this article, did I? The only aspect of the solution I really addressed was a guest worker program, which would solve most of the illegal immigration problem, at least from Mexico.
I don't have any problems with LEGAL immigrants. I do with illegals. As far as I'm concerned, anybody who starts off their life here committing a deliberate crime is NOT a good, decent person, and certainly ought not be rewarded by being given citizenship status
Illegals and most rational Americans don't see crossing the border to find work as a crime deserving of severe punishment. It's a necessary evil for our economy and for their success. Remember, there ARE jobs in Mexico and they could work there, they are just trying to earn a better life for themselves. That desire to advance yourself is the essence of America, and if they have the attitude that they are willing to work hard to attain the American dream then as far as I'm concerned they are spiritual citizens of this nation, because that's what America is all about.
dave
16 - Nzie
as a student and an intern at a Church program that serves refugees and immigrants in Virginia, I've been researching this topic.
I agree that breaking the law is not a good start. However, I was wondering if our immigration laws are just. I have never heard of the difficulties of immigrating from Europeans. There are many people who come down from Canada as well (not huge numbers, but still). Could it be that our immigration policies are unjust? I recall from history classes that quotas were established when we opened up, and that they were particularly unfair to groups considered less desirable-- my great great grandparents came over from central Europe with more difficulties than people from western Europe, but a lot less than people from China, who were totally discriminated against. I don't know exactly what the case is now (which is why I'm researching), but it doesn't seem very fair to not take into account how difficult we've made it to get visas-- particularly when it is harder for certain groups than others. Seriously, we could well be upholding an outdated elitist-- if not racist-- system. Doesn't sound like the American way to me.
~Nzie
17 - Nzie
oh, just a note in defense of Mexicans-- I'm in Richmond, VA, for my internship, and there's construction behind my apartment, so the supervisor came over to ask me to move my car, and he commented on what hard, good workers Mexicans are, as that is the bulk of his work crew.
~Nzie
18 - Dave Nalle
Matches my observations, Nzie. If they're working they're probably Mexicans. If they're pointing a gun at you they're probably not.
Dave
19 - Nancy
I know I mentioned in a previous blog that my first ever contact with an illegal was with a woman from Canada. It doesn't matter where they're from.
I understand we aren't physically able to just up & deport these scumbags. Big Business wouldn't allow it, even if we had the means to do so. However, you ignore the fact that the bulk of illegals work as construction crews, house servants, cleaning or lawn care crews, farm workers, etc. - and I guarantee you, those employers are NOT withholding or paying taxes on them, not a cent, because then they'd have to pay matching employment taxes as well as unemployment taxes, etc. ... and the whole point of hiring illegals is that way legit taxes (as well as higher wages) are avoided. Billions are being lost thru this kind of employer tax evasion.
I could live with requiring all of them to file some sort of application for permanent work status (not citizenship), but only if those caught without such application were deported immediately, do not pass go, no $200, and guarateed a minimum of some years of hardship as convict labor if they were ever caught back here without it.
BTW - originally the bulk of the immigrants in this area were Salvadoreans, but now it's Mexicans, and their kids are bored, so they're joining the gangs. So now we've not only got to educate their bastards, we've got to entertain them, too, by building all kinds of youth programs, etc. to keep the little turds out of trouble. I need hardly point out that this is taking money from programs which would benefit legit citizens & immigrants, so in effect they're stealing from these funds, too.
20 - Tom
- the figue of 80% of illegals paying into the federal tax system appears to be accurate.
It is hard to believe illegal aliens are paying much federal tax. If you were an illegal alien and you come to American. You want to make every dollar you make counts. How much would you want to pay tax? Average Americans pay $8000 each year for taxes. How much you think the illegal alien would pay? Consider they know nobody would check on them anyway? Dave, you have a number for how much the illegals paying in taxes???
21 - Philg
- the figue of 80% of illegals paying into the federal tax system appears to be accurate.
This appears to be one of those "let's go with it" off the cuff lib fibs. It does defy logic.
22 - Tom
The illegals are a non-starter, you Americans are better without them. They start their "better life" by breaking the law. For legal immigrants, they work hard and play by the rule. It is easier for you to say since you are already an American citizen. Consider yourself as an immigrant, you worked hard and wait in line for 10 years, then suddently those "illegals" just jumped the line in front of you. "We are already here, what can you do about it?!". They are doing this to the legal immigrant. They will do the same to you, compete with you in everyway once they became US citizens. They are challenge the sovereign of your country and you guys want to reward them the citizenship? Your senators is doing it for only one reason, their personal political gain. The burdens, messes and taxes will be left to you common Americans to pay!
23 - Dave Nalle
It is hard to believe illegal aliens are paying much federal tax. If you were an illegal alien and you come to American. You want to make every dollar you make counts. How much would you want to pay tax? Average Americans pay $8000 each year for taxes. How much you think the illegal alien would pay? Consider they know nobody would check on them anyway? Dave, you have a number for how much the illegals paying in taxes???
You don't get it. They pay disproportionately large amounts of taxes because tax and SS and medicare are WITHHELD from their pay by the employer who then sends it off to the IRS. Unlike you they then don't file at all and get no refund, so the feds keep all the money that was withheld. For the average illegal that would be about $6000 a year.
There's no need to check up on them, and we DO have numbers, because every year the IRS and SSA get money assigned to bogus SSNs which they get to keep.
As I said in the article, the SSA gets $50 billion a year in payments to bogus numbers. That includes both illegals and underground economy workers, of course, but it suggests that there are a LOT of people working that way and paying taxes. Perhaps as many as 20 million.
Dave
24 - Dave Nalle
Consider yourself as an immigrant, you worked hard and wait in line for 10 years, then suddently those "illegals" just jumped the line in front of you
Not one bill proposed in Congress and nothing I've written here or elsewhere has EVER proposed this. You're repeating a bogus talking point which has no basis in fact. It's a straw man. At most illegals would be allowed to apply just like other applicants and start at the back of the line. And in this article I don't even address that issue, just the idea of a guest worker program.
Dave
25 - Tom
1. like above said, Withholding taxes are for for large companies, very few for private employers - the bulk of those hiring illegals,
2. Even they do withhold, you would expect they would only withhold the very minimum, then consider the majority of the illegal immigrants were hired by small private employers that do NOT withhold, you would get an idea of how much on average they would pay in tax.
3. It is another crime to commit fraud to IRS by using fraudulent id.