In the U.S., you can be president, even if you're black. Even if you're — Wait, you're an Atheist?
The New York Times recently ran a story about new London bus ads. That should be a pretty boring story, and it was in the UK, but it was definitely worth reporting for the US. The bus ads read, exactly, "THERE'S PROBABLY NO GOD. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life." The ads were originally conceived as a response to Christian ads before it that tended to inform passersby that they were going to burn forever if they didn't believe. It was supposed to be a one time ad, but big-hitters like Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion) signed on to raise plenty of money for these ads to be seen all over London.…
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— go to most recent comments26 - Dr Dreadful
I view Atheists and Christians as having very similar certainties as to the non-existence and existence, respectively, of a god; both are quite certain in their beliefs.
Possibly, Dan, but believing in a God does have a proactive element. Would you characterize yourself, for example, as believing that there is no god or just not believing that there is one?
This is more probably true of second-generation atheists like my two nephews, for whom the possible presence of a deity has played no part whatsoever in their upbringing. I don't think either of them has ever even set foot inside a church.
They don't believe in a god in the same way as you or I don't believe that there's a 5,000-mile-long Ford Focus orbiting between Mars and Jupiter*. It's nothing to do with faith one way or the other; it just isn't a factor.
* Although I have heard tell of some strange cults down there in Panama, so I suppose I can't be sure about you...!
27 - Dan(Miller)
Doc, just not believing that there is one is my position. Douglas Adams (I think), possibly while meditating in the waterloo, suggested that there may be a highly intelligent, possibly omnipotent, shade of purple somewhere in or outside the known universe, whom some might consider a God. Personally, back when sailing, I offered a toast to Neptune every morning at sunrise; that, or something else, may have kept us alive. I am not aware of any substantial evidence to the contrary.
Dan(Miller)
28 - Cindy D
I have to go with Christopher in #14. Also Dr.D at #26.
I can't claim to be sure or have proof of the lack of a god.
Oh wait! (looks around at how people choose to act) Maybe I was hasty. Looks like there is no evidence at all.
29 - Dr Dreadful
Dan,
Douglas Adams' hooloovoo was in fact a superintelligent shade of the colour blue. Adams doesn't mention its purple cousin, but it was probably a dunce by comparison.
The hooloovoo never claimed to be a god, but did engineer some damn fast (albeit alarmingly unpredictable) starships.
30 - Cindy D
Has anyone listened to Quandary Phase? I just finished that. I have to give it 5 (of 5) stars. Mostly because it's one of the few things left of HHG.
Not as great as the original. But it'll do.
31 - Dan(Miller)
Doc,
Oh, all right. Have it your way. I confess. You are right and I am
leftwrong.Dan(Miller)
Sniff sob Damn. BUT -- Purple was S(he)H(e)It's semi-cousin, upon whom (which) the argument from unintelligent design is based.
32 - Brunelleschi
Nathaniel;
Good job, very true!
America wasn't the first place to dump on atheists. They have been scaring the church since there was a church. The church has burned books and people, and murdered people for a long time -over atheism.
Europe's societies are a lot older and have seen religions come and go. Christians have held a majority here since the beginning and still do. They are just out of control! You can hardly bring atheism up without getting abuse from someone.
Atheists in government and science have had to keep a low profile since there was government and science due to religious intolerance and aggression. That's just sad.
It's past time for atheists to stand up and say "We exist, deal with it!"
A good book on this is Dawkins "The God Delusion." It's a great manual for clear thinkers who are sick of being treated like there is something wrong with them for having a brain.
33 - Roger Nowosielski
Nat/Brunelleschi,
Speaking of Dawkins, a great author. Haven't read that one, but his first two were great. A lucid writer and a provocative thinker. You might want to try the philosopher, Daniel Dennett(symphatitic to Dawkins' thinking), "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" and his other works in the philosophy of mind.
34 - Jordan Richardson
Honestly, this issue is as old as the hills and is never going away. Modern thinkers like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens aren't presenting any ideas that weren't already in place with the likes of Sigmund Freud or Ludwig Feuerbach. And Freud and Feuerbach were simply borrowing from others. And so on.
Same goes for religious thought, as each tradition heavily borrows from and leans on pieces of the one before it.
This so-called conflict will always exist, people will always struggle with the question of their existence, and they will always struggle with the question of religion. Religion isn't going anywhere, but the manifestations of it might change in regards to politics. There will be different demons, whether atheists or Muslims, and we'll continue to fight the same fights forever on the topic until we're all liquidated.
Both groups, the atheists and the religious, claim that they are marginalized or discriminated against in some fashion. That won't change either.
The behaviour of human beings ought not to make someone an atheist, it ought to make someone hate humanity. In all honesty, the idea of whether there's a Greater Power or not has pretty much become irrelevant in my life. There is no conceivable way to know for sure, one way or the other, whether there's a Being that exists in such a fashion.
At best I can say that I don't believe in the idea of an external God, a heaven, a hell, Jesus Christ as the Son of God, or other variations on the same theme. If there were to be any tradition I would still adhere to, it would be panentheism, which suggests that the concept of God (or gods or whatever) is essentially an extensive force behind nature...perhaps an affect and effect of the universe, if you will. I don't believe that there is a particular "Will of God" or that we human beings can speak for whatever God is.
I don't believe there is any "true religion" or that religion is anything beyond humanity's attempt to understand where it came from. There is no particular wisdom to be found exclusively in religion, but there is no particular folly in the attempt either.
So, then, as religion naturally relates to politics, it becomes absolutely irrelevant to me. Atheism is another religious understanding (I am not saying it IS a religion, mind you) of where we came from. It is, like all other belief structures, a decision to be made about our origins, our purposes, our beings, our morals, our ethics, our struggles, our all. Atheism is a beautiful thing, as is Hinduism, as is Islam. They are all attempts at grasping our world in terms that appeal to us in some natural sense. Atheism works for people because it makes sense atheists, while Christianity works for others because it makes sense to Christians. Were I to be born into a Muslim tradition, I'd be a Muslim. And so on.
Forgive my rambling, but I guess it's my way of saying that I really don't get the "big deal" over religion. It's a weak, feeble attempt at getting at the "why" of it all. Some reject the question altogether, others reject some answers, others accept some answers. That ought to have no bearing, whatsoever, on the political arena.
That said, I think many Americans would sooner vote in a child killer with a meth habit than an atheist or a Muslim at this point.
Sad.
35 - Brian aka Guppusmaximus
Great Article & Thanks for the Support:) GO LONDON!!!
your life has to be pretty convenient for you to be able not to believe in gods after being raised that way.
No. Actually, when I stopped praying to nothing for things to go my way(having a crisis when they didn't) and just focused on successful/factual solutions to get "it" done then my life got better by my own hand. There was nothing convenient about it(it was damn hard) & I am rather pissed that I wasted as many years as I did looking for answers from a f*cking fairytale.
AND, no, I hate the word "Atheist" but at least it is a short way of saying,"Spare me the Bullshit!!"
36 - Jordan Richardson
Just to pick up on what Brian just said:
Prayer is an interesting thing. So many people use it for so many different purposes, from praying for a new car to praying for things to go their way to praying for their sports team to win to praying for a cure for cancer, that it loses all meaning in just about every religious tradition on earth. It's become a way for people to get what they want out of a deity, or so they're told by money-grubbing jackasses, and when they don't get what they want from shouting to the heavens, they stop believing in God.
I'm all for not believing in God due to a lack of sensible evidence or a lack of a desire to do so. But what I really don't get is why people base their lack of belief in God on the tenets of ridiculous religions. Why would you not believe in God because She didn't answer your prayers? Or why would you not believe in God because people do bad things? Or because there are pedophiles? Or because your mom died of cancer?
While I realize those questions and concerns really press at the meaning and desire of having a "place" in the universe, I don't get why human behaviour or idiocy predicates a lack of divine entity in any form.
Rule it out because of a lack of evidence if you must, but to not believe in God because you were cut off in traffic just speaks to human selfishness, at least in my view.
37 - Brian aka Guppusmaximus
AND, no, I hate the word "Atheist" but at least it is a short way of saying,"Spare me the Bullshit!!"
Or is it "And,YES,I hate the word "Atheist"..."
Anyways, it is a great way to end a conversation real fast!
38 - Brunelleschi
Jordan-
Why do you care so much if people lose their faith that way? Forget about it. It was their delusion to count on something that isn't there, and it's their natural reaction to it not responding.
People wake up in different ways. Relax.
39 - Brian aka Guppusmaximus
Well, it wasn't quite that way,but, I didn't want to get into my life story and I see your POV as I don't believe that it was necessarily pointed at me.
40 - Cindy D
There is no particular wisdom to be found exclusively in religion, but there is no particular folly in the attempt either.
I wouldn't have a problem with it if religion was merely an attempt to understand origin. But religion is much more than an attempt to understand anything.
And what it is responsible for is certainly no folly, just absolute, breathtaking and inhuman brutality. But I wouldn't call that folly.
41 - Glenn Contrarian
In addition to the religious diatribe I posted above, here's something that will probably tick off more than a few people.
Over the years, I've known many, many couples, including some where one or both of the spouses were atheist. In that time, I saw no - repeat, no - lasting marriages in which one or both of the spouses was an atheist.
PLEASE UNDERSTAND that I'm not saying that to insult anyone - that was ONLY my own observation...and the vast majority of oh-so-pious religions have nothing to brag about.
42 - Cindy D
Why do you think they lasted Glenn?
43 - Mark Saleski
re: #41 - obviously anecdotal evidence, but me and TheWife™ will soon celebrate out 10th anniversary. her being the christian who has worked for several christian and evangelical organizations while i am an atheist.
44 - Cindy D
That something "lasts", what does that say? It doesn't say much to me.
45 - Mark Saleski
"lasts"....truly, that depends. i mean, i was married before for quite a long time, but the marriage itself was dead long before its legal end.
46 - Cindy D
Maybe they just endured.
I think several non-believers will disagree with you Glenn. Me for # two.
47 - Brunelleschi
Glenn
#41-
Nonsense. My ex and I are both atheists!
:)
48 - Glenn Contrarian
To those who took offense at what I posted, look again at my last paragraph:
"PLEASE UNDERSTAND that I'm not saying that to insult anyone - that was ONLY my own observation...and the vast majority of oh-so-pious religions have nothing to brag about."
49 - Cindy D
Glenn,
No offense. But you didn't answer my questions. I'll just presume then they were inured to the bondage of matrimony.
50 - Glenn Contrarian
Cindy -
You asked - and please remember that I own my statements and mean no insults or hurt to anyone.
Personally, I think that marriages where both belong to a religion are more successful for the same reason that (again, in my own unscientific opinion) those who are religious usually are less likely to commit felonies - the reason being that someone who believes that Someone is looking over his should is less likely to do something that Someone would not want him to do.
You'll probably disagree strongly with that - but that's only my opinion.
And perhaps I should mention that marriages within the Church of which I'm a member have (in my own observation) an 80-85% success rate. Of course, one reason is that we don't believe in divorce (or 'annullment' (unless the marriage was illegal to begin with)). This helps, because most couples tend to find that when things get really contentious, they'd better find a way to kiss and make up because they're stuck with each other for life. Pretty tough - but it works.
51 - Cindy D
Glenn,
So basically what you're saying is that you don't have adequate internal ethics and you need some invisible person to threaten to punish or disapprove of you in order to do what's right by your partner.
It seems you both may as well have committed whatever "felonies" you mean as the whole thing sounds more like a prison than a partnership to me.
52 - Cindy D
I don't need a god to tell me to be loving or faithful or to work through difficulty. Nor do I think suffering is noble.
53 - Clavos
I'm a second generation nonbeliever. I've been living with the same woman since 1967, and joined legally to her in a civil union not sanctioned by any church, but recognized by the state (officiated by a Notary Public, legal in Florida), since 1971, and looking forward with much pleasure and anticipation to many more.
54 - Jet
Clavos, for that you have my respect. On a different tangent, I found it interesting that God was praised for saving all those lives in the Hudson River, but wasn't mentioned as the cause, or even bothering to prevent it in the first place.
Does it take "an act of God" to divert a few ducks and geese?
55 - Clavos
Does it take "an act of God" to divert a few ducks and geese?
Funny you should mention that.
I heard a discussion of the accident this evening in regard to the possibility of lawsuits being filed against USAir. One of the participants (an attorney) opined that they would probably not prevail, because the accident's cause, if it turns out that the NTSB verifies that it really was bird ingestion in one or both engines, will legally be considered an act of god, whereas many (if not most) aviation accidents are determined to be pilot error.
56 - Jet
I started college wanting to be an NTSB investigator, but ran out of money though I still have a lot of the (dated) textbooks.
Bird ingestion is not all that unusual, but the odds of both engines being taken out is astronomical.
the pilot and crew deserve the highest praise possible and then some. I rank him right up there with the CD 10 pilot that saved most of his passengers in Sioux City in the crash that cartwheeled down the runway.
57 - Jet
Though the passengers deserve something for the ordeal, they don't deserve millions a piece. The one's that start lawsuits deserve nothing for their greed.
...but that's only my opinion
58 - Jordan Richardson
Why do you care so much if people lose their faith that way? Forget about it. It was their delusion to count on something that isn't there, and it's their natural reaction to it not responding.
People wake up in different ways. Relax.
This puzzles me. Why do you assume I "care so much?" Did you read my #34 at all? All I was saying in the comment you're referencing is that I'd rather the rejection of religious concepts be logical not reactionary. It makes a stronger case. It's like not wanting to have a child because you heard one screaming and throwing a tantrum in a grocery store. It's probably better to not want to have a child for "better reasons," I would imagine, and the case would be stronger with a better set of criteria.
There are PLENTY of great reasons for not subscribing to a religious view of the world. Tonnes of them. Not receiving an "answer to prayer" isn't one of them, in my opinion.
Cindy,
I wouldn't have a problem with it if religion was merely an attempt to understand origin. But religion is much more than an attempt to understand anything.
That's really a broad statement. It all depends on who you're referring to and who you talk to. There are countless ways for people to live out their religions and countless reasons that people turn to and turn away from religion. Most religions BEGAN as attempts to understand origin. And most evolved into mechanisms of varying degrees of control or corruption. Such is the nature of HUMANITY, not the mechanism. Were religion not used as an excuse to commit brutal acts, we, brilliant and egotistical species we are, would have devised another lie to do the very same.
I guess I don't share the commonly held notion that the world would suddenly zap into being a better place were we to eradicate religion. Being an eternal pessimist when it comes to humanity, I always imagine a few years down the road as we war between vegans and carnivores, perhaps, or those who like the colour blue versus those who prefer red. Conflict, often brutal conflict, is in our nature.
And what it is responsible for is certainly no folly, just absolute, breathtaking and inhuman brutality. But I wouldn't call that folly.
Actually, what I said wasn't referring to what religion is "responsible for." While I still contend that human beings are responsible and not the empty artificiality of "religion," I was referring to the fact that there is no inherent folly in seeking some form of truth in religion.
My grandmother went to her grave a believing Christian, dreaming of heaven and a life serving her Lord. She gathered peace, all throughout her dying days, and gathered comfort from what she believed in her entire life. She dedicated her life wholly to the service of others, helping homeless people and others in need. My grandmother believed that by serving "the least of these," she was serving God. It didn't matter who "the least of these" were in her eyes - whether they believed in God or not was irrelevant, as was what their political affiliations were, how they dressed, how they talked, where they were from, and so on. All that mattered was that she was helping those in need of it. No hour was too late, no day was too long.
For my grandmother and the other religious individuals like her, there is NO folly in the lives they have chosen. There is NO folly in choosing to serve their God in such a fashion, NO folly in choosing a life of service. Even if we choose to refer to my grandmother's life as being lived in the shadow of a Grand Delusion, her life was all the richer for it. And as she passed away, she smiled because she knew what she had in store. There is no folly in that, either, and none among us would be so callous as to call her a fool for living as she wished to live.
Now I have to wonder: were my grandmother's religious beliefs responsible for her kindness or was she a kind woman with or without her Christianity? Conversely, is religion responsible for violence and brutality or does that exist with or without religion?
Flawed as the constructs of religion are - and well flawed they should be, as we invented them in our hours of greed and need - it is humanity that bears responsibility. There is no magic button to push, no cure, no "one thing" we can get rid of that will end this condition. It is in us. And it will always be in us.
Now, I'm not suggesting that you or anyone else are of the mindset that removing religion would be a cure-all, although there are some groups and some prominent atheists that seem to believe this is the case. I am, instead, suggesting a broader understanding of religion and a broader acceptance of it. Why do people turn to religion? What can we learn from them? What can they learn from us? How can we work with our common humanity? And so on.
I'm sick of dividing over the pieces of life that make us individuals. I'm so tired of hearing about how one group is inherently dangerous, about how all Muslims hate women and want to bomb us, about how all Christians want to take away gay rights and force us to pray in schools, about how all atheists want us to ban Christmas and all religious expression. We, as humans, need to learn to work together with our delusions, flaws, faults, struggles, wills, ideas, and so on. We need to forgive each other, develop patience, understanding, and compassion regardless of what we believe.
Everyone is responsible for brutality, religious or not. We all have blood on our hands. It's time to wash it off, but I fear our divisions will have us returning to crimson again and again and our children's children won't know the better world we keep talking about.
59 - Jordan Richardson
I found it interesting that God was praised for saving all those lives in the Hudson River, but wasn't mentioned as the cause, or even bothering to prevent it in the first place.
Yeah, that type of thing always interests me too. Some people believe that one God only does the good stuff, while his Brother is in charge of the geese into planes and the tsunamis.
Weird.
60 - Brian aka Guppusmaximus
Jordan,
Though my "Awakening" may sound very reactionary, it was,eventually, logic that made me change my mind. If you think that you can make such a huge change in your life without any kind of reaction first then I think you are full of it. I was raised in this fairytale by people that I love. It can become full of emotion when you have to take a different path & basically go against what your family believes. It was insulting to them & painful for me to be true to myself! Prayer is a huge part of the Catholic faith and maybe I'm not intelligent enough, but, I wasn't getting any communication. When things are not working out for you, then, God's "plan" becomes "mysterious". Priests & fellow followers give you the same BS that we are not smart enough to understand his/her plan...*AHHhh* It's all a load of BS and I don't wanna get into it. Ultimately, No one has any f*cking answers & everyone translates that f*cking book differently. I finally had enough and decided to live my life the way I wanted and not in service to any f*cking invisible He-She.
61 - Jordan Richardson
B,
My comments were intended to be very general and in no way, shape, or form directed towards you or your personal experience. I am not saying that such a change isn't brought about by a reaction, as my change was of course brought about by a reaction and, indeed, by a series of reactions supported by years of study and theological instruction.
There is, of course, a moment in time in which something ceases to make sense or something ceases to be "just so." That wasn't what I was trying to say at all. Instead, I attempted (poorly, as usual) to express the mere notion that I hope people that reject or accept religious beliefs do so based on logic, merit, and so forth instead of reacting to the dissolution of a myth. There is more to "God," so to speak, than a Christian mythology or a Native American understanding or what have you.
As my post intended to express (again, very poorly), there is a great deal of confusion about prayer and what it does. Is it really communicating with God? No, I don't think so. I have never actually believed that, regardless of what my theological instructors thought and regardless of what my pastors thought. I learned different prayer traditions from different religions, including those that believe you pray for the good of yourself and those who believe you pray as a sort of centering activity to help unify your "spirit" with the universe. I decided that prayer was what the individual made of it, not what a doctrine of the church made of it, and that prayer was and is different for every single spiritual being that decides to take part in it. When people pray for "answers," I think they lose the thread of what it can do.
Even when I was calling myself a Christian, I never prayed for answers or for things to be done or for a feeling. In fact, I rarely prayed. When I did, it was to feel like I was a part of something greater and, in those moments, it often did the trick. But as I grew older and learned more about other prayer traditions, I learned that prayer can be whatever I needed it to be in the moment. My wife and I still pray every single night before bed, not because we believe in a "f*cking invisible He-She" like the stuff of lore, but rather that we believe it helps center our marriage on something external.
In terms of understanding "God's plan," I don't believe any of us can speak for God if God exists and I don't believe any of us have the ability to do so either. It's insulting when people claim to know God's "will" or when they know what God's "like" or what God "does." I don't know what God is, what God wants, if God's actually there somewhere, or if God's the "ground of all being." I don't believe I can know. On the other hand, I'm fascinated by religions and by the possibility of God and of spirits. I believe in spiritual energy of some sort, although I don't know what it is. I believe religion can be a helpful tool, although it has been created by humans and has no bearing on anything Divine. The scriptures, all holy books, and all other works all have the same merits in that they were also written by humans and created by humans. The Bible, the Koran, and everything else were all penned by men (some women in some traditions) trying to understand a larger purpose of things. That's all they are to me, nothing more and nothing less. They are important, they are not ridiculous anymore than my thoughts or your thoughts on the matter are ridiculous. They are just that: thoughts.
I guess what I'm struggling to say is that I don't constantly think about the possibility of God because I want the answer. I think about the possibility of God because I find that the journey enriches my life, centers me, and provides something of interest. Religion is an interesting topic, as it is very insightful as to how we as humans think and believe. Some rightly reject, while others rightly embrace it. It is what it is.
62 - Brian aka Guppusmaximus
Well, at first, that is what I thought but then I got no reply from you about #39, so, I started thinking (Oh Shit, that's not a good thing*Smirk*).
As for the "Personal" GOD/Spirit/Earth Mother...It doesn't really interest me anymore as I find that,now, I wish I had spent those years reading "factual" thoughts from people of science,math & technology instead of the "spritual" musings of some dude on peyote or whatever the drugs they had to be on to talk about turning water into wine or some prophet walking on water.To me, their intent was to foster fear & intimidation if you don't live up to those f*cked up standards. The Bible,Koran, etc.. seem way more than just some thoughts.
BUT, that's your choice and I'm not damning it. Whatever gets you through those hard times and makes you happy.
63 - Baronius
All of these comments about prayer, and most every description involved getting something: a favor from God, or a feeling about God. Christian prayer is supposed to be what St. Teresa of Avila called "a close meeting between friends". Just my two cents; I know that this is your conversation, not mine.
64 - Cindy D
I don't know where to put this. It's for Dan(Miller).
Five Somali pirates drown as they squabble over their $3million ransom
65 - Dan(Miller)
Thanks, Cindy D.
Dan(Miller)
66 - Cindy D
RE #58
Jordan,
That's really a broad statement.
Yes, it was. I was just thinking about something I read about Jews and Arabs coexisting peacefully in the area for a long time before Israel came into being.
I just wonder if they'd have so much to fight about if they didn't have religion.
67 - Dan(Miller)
Here is an article about Jews and Arabs in Panamá City. Although relations have historically been quite peaceful, there was a street demonstration today. Someone on the scene reported,
It probably won't amount to much more than that, at least I hope it won't.Dan(Miller)
68 - Brunelleschi
Cindy D-
In Israel/Palestine, religion IS politics. Three monotheistic faiths came from a single spot as a product of all the fighting, and it's spread world wide. What a mess!
The fighting is as built in as faith is. Just read one of Ruvy's rants and multiply it by the population there.
69 - Cindy D
I hope not too.
70 - Cindy D
Brunelleschi,
I just read what I wrote. That they coexisted peacefully before the state. Maybe I was looking at it the wrong way. So, they lived together despite their differences before the state appeared.
71 - Brunelleschi
Cindy-
I was thinking further back in time, like how each of the three faiths are really just political rivals from the beginning.
Christianity started there when a jewish dissident said the occupying powers would be overthrown by a higher power, if you follow me.....
That's just how things were back then, and they still are.
There are plenty of times in history when faiths put up with each other in Jerusalem, but they flare up again and again. I agree the current crisis is because of the creation of Israel, that's for sure.
72 - Cindy D
Religions and states two good ways to control people. Look how well they complement each other when combined into one.
73 - Glenn Contrarian
Cindy -
FAR more Jews have died at the hands of 'Christians' than at the hands of Muslims. Jews can and do live peacefully in Muslim countries - they are normally something akin to a 'second-class citizen' and have to endure varying amounts of prejudice and religious persecution...but still they live in relative peace, at least in most Sunni countries. They're facing more prosecution in Iran since the 1979 revolution, though.
The reason the Muslims hate Israel - but not the Jews - is because of what they see as "radical Zionism".
74 - Zedd
I'm sure that we've had several Presidents who are atheists. Perhaps even this one is an atheist. they wouldn't dare admit it.
If one is an atheist, it wouldn't be wrong to say that you are a believer because you don't believe in sin or consequences for wrong doings. I'm sure we've had lots of Presidents who are atheists.
Just a thought.
75 - Cindy D
Zedd,
People who don't believe there is a supreme being don't believe in consequences? And don't believe in wrongdoings?
So, you are saying that without a god to enforce standards, people are unethical.