There are so many controversial issues surrounding the recent court ruling against millennial cultist leader Rev. Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church that it's hard to know where to begin discussing it. Perhaps the worst part is that it puts me in the position of having to defend a pack of poisonous, inbred lunatics who I wish would just drop off the face of the earth.
For the past 15 years, Phelps and his church members (who are mostly directly related to him) have traveled around the country picketing public events and funerals, promoting their basic message that because of the decadence of American society, particularly in the area of toleration for homosexuality, America is doomed and is going to be targeted by God's judgement for being a modern day Sodom. They started out promoting the idea that AIDS was God's punishment for homosexuality, they moved on to claiming the 9/11 attack was God's vengeance, and most recently they have focused on the idea that the deaths of US soldiers in Iraq is the will of God to punish the immoral nation.
The cultlike church, which no major Baptist affiliation has been willing to associate with, has an overwhelming lust for any kind of media attention no matter how negative. In pursuit of exposure for their message they have discovered that the more outrageous and offensive their conduct, the more attention they will get. They really hit paydirt in their campaign to be as obnoxious as possible when they began picketing military funerals bearing signs with slogans like "God Hates Fags," "Thank God for Dead Soldiers," and "You're Going to Hell." Their fanaticism blinds them to the overwhelmingly negative public reaction to their behavior and they remain convinced that their radical methods are an effective way to get their message out. To some degree they are right, because it does get them so much press coverage that they will at least reach the attention of the small population of fellow bigots their message will appeal to.
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— go to most recent comments1 - Matthew T. Sussman
"See, this is what happens when we don't win the case the first time. We have to defend them in the appeal." -- ACLU
2 - Dave Nalle
That would seem like a bold statement of the obvious from the ACLU.
Dave
3 - Bill
These particular "christians" are nothing more than theological thugs and anarchist â€" they are evil incarnate. The only difference between them and Islamic Fascists is the type of bomb they’re throwing. The intent is the same, to murder freedom of thought and more importantly freedom from religion. All they want is attention for their sick form of bigotry and hate. And why shouldn’t they be criminally prosecuted for “hate” crimes against humanity??? Here are a couple of quotes that say it precisely: "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought, which they avoid." Søren Aabye Kierkegaard and "...When compared with the suppression of anarchy every other question sinks into insignificance. The anarchist is the enemy of humanity, the enemy of all mankind, and his is a deeper degree of criminality than any other." Theodore Roosevelt, 1908.
When it really comes down to it all these theological anarchists want is attention and media time for their sick and hideous beliefs? There is no biblical basis for their hateful ways â€" Christ and the bible say over and over throughout the scriptures to hate the sin not the sinner. Christ life was an example of UNCONDITIONAL tolerance, love and compassion for all of mankind, friend and foe. What of these aspects of Christianity do they not get?
Two major forms of non-atheism exist in the world: theism and deism. Neither of these basis for true spiritual belief suggest, infer or dictate hateful, uncompassionate interaction between humans. The two greatest gifts from God are “Free Will” and “Eternal Life.” These clowns would remove your free will at the point of a gun and set themselves up as the judges of who will have eternal life. Enough Say???
4 - Baronius
(It looks like Bill already said some of this, but what the heck.)
Dave, you misunderstand the psychology of the group. They're not trying (poorly) to position themselves for sympathy among the like-minded. They're not bummed out that people hate them.
A group like this receives its vindication when it's hated by society. Society is rotten; we're good; ergo, society must hate us. It would be a sin to blend in with civilized company. (Dave, if it helps, they'd hate you defending them.) It doesn't occur to them that they're reviled because they're tuchases, not because they're Christians.
5 - Lumpy
what troubles me is the similarity of fanatical mentality between these nuts the 9/11 truthers and the economic armageddon freaks like our own Anand Menon. while these groups may disagree on their pet issues they seem to share an underlying hatred of freedom whish is quite troubling.
6 - Dave Nalle
I think you're probably right that fanatics are everywhere on virtually every issue. I'm not sure that the groups you mention have much more in common than just being fanatics, however.
However, as with any group of fanatics who are isolated and largely exist in their own little pocket of fanatic culture, there's the possibility for things to get way out of hand. It's not a long trip from protesting a funeral to bombing a gay bar.
Fortunately, the cultlike aspect of this particular church has some effect in keeping things under control, because Phelps seems to have strict limits on how crazy he's willing to let things get. But when he dies and the younger generation, brought up in fanaticism, takes over, who knows how far things will go.
Dave
7 - Dave Nalle
Dave, you misunderstand the psychology of the group. They're not trying (poorly) to position themselves for sympathy among the like-minded. They're not bummed out that people hate them.
I agree with this to some extent, and I don't think I said that they had any sense of shame or desire for approval. They LIKE being persecuted and I think that they are correct in believing that the image of being persecuted for being righteous is effective in attracting the small number of like-minded lunatics who are out there in the general public.
A group like this receives its vindication when it's hated by society. Society is rotten; we're good; ergo, society must hate us. It would be a sin to blend in with civilized company. (Dave, if it helps, they'd hate you defending them.)
I certainly hope so. I'm a firm adherent of just about everything they think has put us on the hotrails to hell.
It doesn't occur to them that they're reviled because they're tuchases, not because they're Christians.
But my point is that even being reviled gets them free publicity in a way that just ignoring them would not do. So to a large extent this lawsuit is probably making them jump for joy for the reasons you point out and also because anything that gets them more exposure is a good thing in their eyes.
At the most basic level, if they didn't want to attract converts and sway a few minds, they wouldn't be engaging in such public, attention seeking behavior, so even if they think up is down and wrong is right, they DO think there are others out there who they can reach and who would agree with them.
Dave
8 - Irene Wagner
Fred "Freedom of Speech" Phelps adds unwanted and inappropriate, even obscene, drama at funerals where families and fellow-soldiers are grieving their dead. Adding injury to insult, he clogs up the legal system for years afterward, all for the glory of extracting the reluctant, but quite correct, admission from everyone else that he was perfectly within his LEGAL rights to do so.
Some Floridian college student brazenly moves to the front of the line in the hushed and sacred atmosphere of a politician's Q and A session, and within minutes the desecrator is being tazed.
9 - Irene Wagner
#7 I'm not so sure Dave Nalle, that Phelp's goal is to win converts from the outside. It sounds like the reverend is providing spiritual guidance to a rather inbred group of individuals.
All manner of outrageous behavior is visited upon the public by folks who have no intention of influencing others to adopt certain viewpoints. Psychopaths. Eccentrics. Demon-possessed, or demon-obsessed.
And most commonly, bullies. For them, pulling the wings off living flies is a bigger kick if there's an audience.
10 - RJ
I strongly oppose these vile scum. And I'm on the record here, in previous comments, as deeply despising them. However, I also oppose civil litigation which has the purpose and/or outcome of bankrupting organizations that promote unpopular speech.
These filth should be shunned by all decent people. And the Patriot Guard does the families of fallen military personnel a great service through their efforts to "quiet" their disgusting protests. But a multi-million dollar civil suit aimed at shutting them down permanently? I don't know if the ends justify the means in this case...
11 - RJ
By the way, this was a great column, Dave.
12 - RJ
"So to a large extent this lawsuit is probably making them jump for joy for the reasons you point out and also because anything that gets them more exposure is a good thing in their eyes."
Hmmm:
Members of the church, however, reportedly greeted the verdict with tight-lipped smiles.
"It will take the 4th Circuit of Appeals a few minutes to reverse this silly thing," said Rev Phelps. [emphasis mine]
Smiles? Yes, these loons appear happy with the outcome... :-/
13 - RJ
Here is an audio file of these loons singing...seriously, you can't make this shit up.
The Mormon Tabernacle Choir it ain't...
14 - Dave Nalle
I think there's certainly an element of the martyr complex at work here. The more they suffer the closer they come to god. Some sort of reasoning like that.
But Irene is off-base on both of her points.
Phelps is not a bully. It may seem like he's bullying the veterans families, but from his perspective they are largely irrelevant. He doesn't care about the funeral as anything but an opportunity to be offensive and attract attention.
And as for the tasing in Florida, although I think the intent of the guy who was tased is quite similar to what Phelps tries to do - and he achieved his objective by getting tased and attracting media attention as a result - legally there's a world of difference because despite the pretense that it was a public forum with questions and everything, it was basically a private event.
Dave
15 - El Bicho
very good piece, Dave.
16 - Nancy
Well written, as always, and you walked the tightrope of defense vs richly deserved censure with skill, Dave.
I do sometimes think, however, that from time to time situations arise where the old-fashioned methods are best: perhaps some of those targeted by these assholes should just get together, and horsewhip & tar-&-feather them. Or break their legs. Where's the mafia when you need them?
17 - Dave Nalle
Nancy, I had to try very hard to resist saying exactly what you said in your comment. My first, emotional reaction was that we should just look the other way and let the Patriot Guard beat the living crap out of the protesters. But satisfying though that might be, it still wouldn't be right.
Dave
18 - Nancy
No .. but I'm not the author, or trying to be evenhanded, like you were, either! I agree - they have the 'right', but with rights come concomitant responsibilities. If those responsibilities are not exercised, then neither should the rights. Since the Phelps group has seen fit to throw the responsibilities of free speech down the toilet, IMO at least, they also forfeit the right to the privilege of same - & the law supports this, in that it is in fact illegal to yell 'fire!' in a crowded theatre - unless there really IS a fire.
On the plus side, if any can be found at all, they do make overt religiousity even more repugnant to all thinking persons who aren't already convinced of such.
Still, I can't help thinking there must be some way legally to clip their wings & force their protests to take place so that the survivors of the deceased aren't forced to hear or see their abuse.
A further question: in many places in the country (if not all, I'm not sure if it's a federal or state/local mandate) so-called 'hate speech' is banned outright. ANY kind of hate speech, from calling gays 'fags', etc. to ethnic slurs like 'nigger' or 'kike' or what-have-you. In fact, in my (DC) area, it's gotten to the point where someone doesn't even have to say anything specific - just be generally anti-somebody or other - & that party gets banned or otherwise penalized. Why have these people not been brought up on charges of hate speech, incitement, etc.? Has any attempt been made to prove unfit parenthood, to remove any children from their custody, etc? I have to admit I haven't been following the details of these cretins very closely, except to wonder why they've been allowed to operate, or why some mourning relation of the deceased hasn't finally had enough & picked up a rock & smashed Phelps to death or at the least horsewhipped him. I certainly would have, without getting bogged down in wallowing in questions of his civil rights, when he had been so blatantly violating my human rights.
Comment?
19 - ostrova
I think it was in the early 90s when a database was set up to track the anti-choice activists who blockaded clinics. When they could be charged as repeat offenders across state lines, it was amazing how God stopped calling them to get up to stuff. Somehow She wasn't willing to keep paying the fines. That's how I heard it, anyway.
20 - Nancy
Do the Phelps assholes cross state lines? Maybe someone should try that. Maybe that's the key. RICO can be used to try some amazing things.
21 - Dave Nalle
Still, I can't help thinking there must be some way legally to clip their wings & force their protests to take place so that the survivors of the deceased aren't forced to hear or see their abuse.
A number of states have passed specific laws to hinder Phelps, including laws just outright banning protests at funerals and laws dictating how far away protesters have to stay from funerals. Those seem like reasonable approaches to the problem.
But, of course, some of these laws do seem like unreasonable restrictions of free speech, and they don't carry super-heavy penalties, so the Phelps followers might be willing to put up with a fine or a few days in jail for the additional publicity of getting arrested.
A further question: in many places in the country (if not all, I'm not sure if it's a federal or state/local mandate) so-called 'hate speech' is banned outright. ANY kind of hate speech, from calling gays 'fags', etc. to ethnic slurs like 'nigger' or 'kike' or what-have-you. In fact, in my (DC) area, it's gotten to the point where someone doesn't even have to say anything specific - just be generally anti-somebody or other - & that party gets banned or otherwise penalized. Why have these people not been brought up on charges of hate speech,
Hate speech laws don't hold up well in court, and I suspect the ACLU would get them off and get any such law struck down. IMO hate speech laws are a waste of paper and inherently unconstitutional. They just make no sense at all.
incitement, etc.? Has any attempt been made to prove unfit parenthood, to remove any children from their custody, etc?
Surprisingly, all accounts are that within the family they live a pretty normal life and don't do the kinds of things you find in other cults like child abuse. Kids go to regular public schools, are allowed to dress normally and have outside friends. It's just on this one issue that they seem to be nuts.
Dave
22 - handyguy
If only we could make a collective decision to ignore the Phelpses and their peculiar and disgusting brand of idiocy.
But we don't. Grieving families at funerals are very vulnerable. And it's hard not to continue to react every time these stories show up in the papers.
Was this the same group that picketed Matthew Shepard's funeral? The picketers there were met by silent counter-protesters wearing angel wings, which they used to block the offending signs from cameras and from the view of mourners. Maybe this was a better idea than the revving motorcycles.
And surely they can be required to keep a certain physical distance from the funerals.
Now that they have become a familiar sight and some of the shock has faded, maybe we can begin to laugh at them and/or ignore them, rather than feeding their desire for attention.
23 - Joe
Does the church have the cash to deal with this judgment if it comes to that? That'd be a show-stopper for a normal church.
24 - Dave Nalle
No, the Church does not have the money to pay the damages, but it doesn't really matter, because they can easily operate on virtually no money, and they've got the ACLU to handle their legal defense.
Dave
25 - Baronius
If only we could make a collective decision to ignore the Phelpses and their peculiar and disgusting brand of idiocy.
We do ignore him, at least those of us on the religious right. We don't think about him or talk about him at all. And it's not because of some implicit support. He's just hateful and wrong and not worth our time. Only non-religious people ever seem to think about him.
As for "the Phelpses", I hope you're talking about the family, and not the Phelps-like people in the world, because there are no people like them.