Does not religion often seem a yoke around the necks of Presidential candidates?
I'm sorry, but is it just me, or does being associated with religion in an American election seem contentious to the point of stupidity?…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Bennett
"...continues to stay in the church to comes listen to it again and again every sunday..."
If Wright gave the same sermon every Sunday, the church would have emptied out long long ago. Picking the one or two sermons where he stepped over the line and said something stupid doesn't give a true representation of his ministry.
I don't do church but I remember how 'het up' some of the JW ministers used to get in my grandmother's services, a mixed ethnic JW church in Oakland CA.
There was much love there. Many good friends and communal dinners between members, no matter the ethnic background. I respected that.
People say stupid things, one would tend to forgive a friend for doing so if once a year, in the heat of the sermon, he stepped over the line.
27 - REMF
Dave Nalle, Baronius, Anon, Mark Edward Manning and Doug Hunter;
Jeremiah Wright served his country honorably for seven years, in the U.S. Marine Corps (private first class, 1961-63), and the U.S. Navy (hospital corpsman third class, 1964-67).
...And yourselves...?
28 - Dr Dreadful
My father-in-law was also a Navy corpsman around that time. Wonder if they served together at all?
29 - Doug Hunter
"...And yourselves...?"
Absolutely, so were Timothy McVeigh, Charles Whitman, and many others. Does that suddenly make my opinion more valuable or relevant?
30 - REMF
"Absolutely, so were Timothy McVeigh, Charles Whitman, and many others."
- Doug Hunter
Except for Dick Cheney, Rush Limbaugh, Karl Rove, Sean Hannity, Paul Wolfowitz, Newt Gingrich, Bill Bennett, and the rest of the chickenhawks.
---------------------------
"Does that suddenly make my opinion more valuable or relevant?"
- Doug Hunter
No. And I don't agree with Mr. Wright, but at least he earned his second amendment rights by actually serving his country during time of war (rather than just spouting empty, bellicose "patriotic" rhetoric). And yourself?
31 - Bennett
"during time of war"
It matters not. Service is service.
It's unseemly to set the standard at "service" and then change the standard to "service during time of war".
jmo of course.
BTW, is Anon our dear little Sicilian friend "Anthony" from back in '05? Sounds like.
32 - Anon
Hey REMF:
What a lame analogy.
Since you cant give a plausible explaination regarding the extremist pastor's hateful language, your strategy is to attack others who point out that he might be a racist and an America hater.
Dont forget Lee Harvey Oswald served in the marines too.
And Lincoln never had any military experience either. what does that tell you?
Last time I checked the first amendment gave everyone the right to free speech not just combat vets.
33 - Baritone
So one black man is in a position to be the Dem presidential candidate, perhaps even president. So that obviates the reality of racism in this country?
Just as neo-nazis, klanners and the like claim the holocaust never happened, it is by an large racists here that claim that there is no racism. What a load of crap.
B-tone
34 - Dave Nalle
MCH has taken non-sequiters to a new height. I didn't even criticize Wright, and none of us were talking about his position on the war in any significant way.
And BTW, you didn't volunteer for service, MCH. You joined solely because there was a draft, so don't try to set yourself above anyone. You can't blame people for not being drafted when there was no draft and no war for that matter.
Dave
35 - Pablo
How come everyone refrers to Mr. Obama as black? I find this to be a very racist characterization of him, as he is half caucasian. Perchance one of you out there that does refer to him as "black" can explain this to me. So that you might understand where I am coming from, assume for a moment that a man was running for President whos family on the paternal side was caucasian and the maternal black, why wouldnt you refer to this gentleman as a white? And if not, WHY NOT? R A C I S M is why not folks, wake up and smell the coffee.
See my point? Sigh........I think it goes over most of your heads........Obama is not black, he is a mullatto, and to me looks quite "WHITE", hell he even talks like a honky.
36 - Matthew T. Sussman
"How come everyone refrers to Mr. Obama as black? I find this to be a very racist characterization of him"
[moments later]
"Obama is not black, he is a mullatto"
Oh good, that's much less racist.
And the word you're looking for is "Halfrican."
37 - Pablo
Matthew,
the dictionary certainly has no definition of mulatto as slang, or anything even closely resembling it. So tell me is that racist??
Let me ask you this question Matthew: If Mr. Obama said that he was white, would you still refer to him as black? And would most of the population?
This is why I suggest that it is racist to refer to the man as black, regardless of how he characterizes himself.
38 - Matthew T. Sussman
Mulatto is as outdated as "colored." Please start calling all your interracial friends "mulatto," see if they return yoru calls.
"If Mr. Obama said that he was white, would you still refer to him as black?"
Obama would never say he was white. He'd lose his stranglehold on the octoroon voting base.
What kind of question is that? It's a hypothetical that would never happen. What if Obama said he was a giant tuna monster from the planet Zyrxol? Would you think any less of him? I for one wouldn't, because doing so would be racist.
39 - Clavos
So, let me see if I've got this right:
This white guy prefers to call himself Black, and everyone who goes along with his self-designation, referring to him as a Black man (the race he claims himself, even though he's really white) is a racist???
You're losing the tiny grip on reality you once had, Paul.
40 - Pablo
I knew it would go wayyyyyyyy over your lil head Clavos. Let me ask you this, if Mr. Obama referred to himself as white, would you? yeahhhh right!
41 - Pablo
Matthew,
I just love how you avoid the question. Slick
42 - Doug Hunter
Why is it racism that white-black mixes are considered black?
43 - Pablo
Doug,
Its not if you would consider them white too, do you?
44 - STM
That'd be the one good thing about living in England, eh Mark?
... not being in the US during the ultra-marathon for the White House.
45 - Clavos
"I knew it would go wayyyyyyyy over your lil head Clavos."
Right. Hang on to that thought, Paul, it'll make you at least feel superior.
What is racist about considering someone to be the race they claim to be?
Obama says he's African-American. What the hell's wrong with that? Maybe he's ashamed of being half white, a reasonable enough attitude for someone half black/half white, given the shameful history of how whites have treated blacks.
46 - Pablo
Clavos,
If Obama proclaimed himself white instead of black, would you too characterize him as caucasian? I highly doubt it. I rest my case.
47 - STM
No point trying to engage in a battle of wits with people who've got no ammo :)
48 - Pablo
Ahhh the voice of ignorance, welcome my ignorant friend who I love to ignore.
49 - Jet in Columbus
And you're doing a damned good job of it too Paul
50 - Pablo
thanks Jet :) I do try
51 - Dave Nalle
Mulatto is as outdated as "colored." Please start calling all your interracial friends "mulatto," see if they return yoru calls.
I prefer to be more specific and use 'quadroon', octaroon' and 'high-yellow'.
Dave
52 - Pablo
Dave,
And I suggest you start calling all your interacial friends white :). Sure
53 - Dr Dreadful
I prefer to be more specific and use 'quadroon', octaroon' and 'high-yellow'.
And I prefer 'Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL), presidential candidate'.
Anyone at all confused as to who I mean?
54 - Cannonshop
Y'know, my folks tried to raise me colourblind when it comes to skin. Something about judging people by the content of their character, their behaviours, and their actions instead of who their parents were.
It's damn strange to agree with a Liberal as I do with comment #54, and I suspect that in reality, we probably don't agree at all. I consider the Junior Senator from Illinois to be another political snake-oil salesman pumping platitudes in place of substance, and when you don't know a man's truth through his actions, you have to look at who he admires and surrounds himself with.
Therefore, it's appropriate to consider Obama in light of his pastor, if for no other reason than because the man IS his pastor. Pastor Wright is right there with Ward Churchill, only he has the excuse of being "a minority" and a Man of the Cloth-the latter tends to add a bit more public weight to his statements, than being a known radical "academic" kept kicking around a university as a curious relic of the sixties.
It's also appropriate to consider McCain in light of the men HE associates with... Hagee is a Televangelist-which is, in the modern world, a bit like a preacher crossed with the Jerry Springer show, a professional beggar and venom-spewer designed mainly to separate the gullible from their money, and play on the conscience of the Lazy (as in "Too lazy to go to church, but not too lazy to feel guilty about it"). Hagee is appropriate to McCain just as Wright is to Obama-McCain sponsors bills to limit influence peddling, then peddles influence on behalf of foreign interests, Hagee rants to the far-side of the Left, while Obama never met a socialist programme he didn't proceed to vote for. (Sixty votes in the senate, not one against any social-spending no matter how absurd).
This election season, we have the woman who married well, the socialist snake-oil salesman, or the crooked phoniCon (that's "Phoney Conservative") to choose from. Democrats need to only choose between two of those- Hillary and Obama, Republicans already chose the last, and the rest of us have to weigh the question of which one is least likely to get what they want.
55 - Clavos
"If Obama proclaimed himself white instead of black, would you too characterize him as caucasian? I highly doubt it. I rest my case."
But, he doesn't "proclaim himself white," does he?
Doubt all you want. Rest your case all you want.
Once more, by assuming, you're making an ass out of yourself.
56 - REMF
"You can't blame people for not being drafted when there was no draft and no war for that matter."
- Dave Nalle
Unless of course they avoided the first Gulf War and then later promote sending someone else overseas to fight their battles for them...
57 - Dave Nalle
I don't have any battles to send people to fight, MCH. But I do support the military doing what it's designed to do when it is in our national interest. It's a pity that you don't give a rat's ass about our nation, its survival or anything but your own self-interest.
Dave
58 - Bernie
Pastor John Hagee also has a money scandal- taking over $1 million anually from his ministries for personal gain. To find out more, google search for "PETITION FOR PASTOR HAGEE TO REPENT".
59 - Pablo
Clavos,
I love how you refuse to answer the question. Typical of a bigot.
60 - Clavos
"I love how you refuse to answer the question."
I think of him as half white/half black, because that is what he is. He calls himself black, so that's what I call him. If he chose to call himself white (or pink, or whatever), I would respect that, and refer to him whatever way he wants.
I really don't care what anyone's ethnic background is, so I'm not sure how it is that I'm a bigot.
61 - Bennett
"I think of him as half white/half black, because that is what he is. He calls himself black, so that's what I call him. If he chose to call himself white (or pink, or whatever), I would respect that, and refer to him whatever way he wants.
I really don't care what anyone's ethnic background is..."
Exactly. Well said Clavos.
62 - Pablo
Yes Clavos, but IF, and I do know it takes a great stretch of your limited intellectual capacity to entertain and imagine a hypothetical scenerio; Mr. Obama referred to himself as WHITE, would you then refer to him as white also? Thats where the bigot comment came from. I know I am still going way over your head Clavos, but I am attempting to show you something which you just cant quite grasp.
63 - Clavos
It seems to me, Pablo, that YOU are the one who "can't quite grasp."
I answered your stupid, dumbass hypothetical question in #60, when I said:
"If he chose to call himself white (or pink, or whatever), I would respect that, and refer to him whatever way he wants."
Or, to put it another way:
YES, I WOULD REFER TO HIM AS WHITE [Personal attack deleted].
64 - Dave Nalle
One has to ask why Pablo thinks we're in the habit of identifying people by skin color above all else. That may be what he does, appending a color before the word 'man' or 'woman' at every opportunitty, but I suspect most of the rest of us don't do that.
Dave
65 - Cannonshop
Perhaps because Pablo was raised in a more intense end of the victim culture than the rest of us, perhaps a left-wing stronghold like Berkley, or Los Angeles where race-baiting is more common than it is even in the Southeast.
66 - Pablo
I beg to differ. I do not have a racist bone in my body, what I have been attempting unsuccesfully I might add is to show how racist amrerica is still. The point of fact is that if Obama or another person who was of mixed african and caucasian race were to say that they were white as opposed to black most americans would still characterize that person as black, I believe that is racist. I love how you twist my words Dave, I have NEVER uttered one word suggesting that any race is inferior or superior or another and you know it. Clavos I do not believe you quite frankly, that you would refer to him as white regardless of what you say here, just my TWO SENSE worth bubba.
67 - Pablo
Dave,
you said:
"appending a color before the word 'man' or 'woman' at every opportunitty, but I suspect most of the rest of us don't do that"
Perhaps you could show me where in the 300 some odd posts i have done on this site, except with reference to what i have been trying to point out here, WHERE, I have used the color of a persons skin before the referencing of a person. YOU numbskull! I would like a response to your denigration; with Clavos it is to be expected.
68 - Clavos
"Clavos I do not believe you quite frankly, that you would refer to him as white regardless of what you say here"
And that is exactly why I don't like to answer your hypotheticals. You're not interested in the truth; you merely want to confirm your prejudices.
I won't play your games.
69 - Dan
"The point of fact is that if Obama or another person who was of mixed african and caucasian race were to say that they were white as opposed to black most americans would still characterize that person as black, I believe that is racist."
When the standard for being perceived as racist is lowered to such a trivial level it ceases to be a concern.
If a bi-racial person is traumatized for being labeled black or white, it seems more like a hypersensitivity issue to be addressed within.
70 - Baronius
OK, Pablo, I'll play.
If Obama called himself white, I'd still call him black. Because - this is the significant thing - he's black. I don't care that he's black, and it doesn't make him a better or worse candidate, or a better or worse president. But he falls in the range of color and physical features that we call "black". If we're going to talk about the subject of race, let's stop lying to ourselves.
And he definitely campaigns as a black guy. Let's be honest: no one would remember a white Illinois state senator talking about unity at the 2004 Democratic Convention. He sure wouldn't have been keynote speaker. He probably would have noticed that Rev. Wright is nuts a lot quicker than he did. No one would be calling this election "historic". Also, the Oprah thing would never have happened.
On top of all that, he's a savvy politician. He'd use his leprechaunness as an advantage, if he were a leprechaun. He's using his mixed-race status as an advantage. I don't know if he's deliberately using it to protect himself fron criticism, but it does work that way. His color is part of his appeal.
71 - Pablo
Baronius,
Of course you would call him black even if he referred to himself as white, thank you for proving my point Baronius. Btw I am german and english, however my skin color particularly when I have a good tan going is just as dark as Obama, and I happen to have very curly hair. So your argument does not hold water, my opinion of your response it that you are racist, as are any others who would by default refer to a half african american and half caucasian as black per se. Thanks for biting.
72 - Pablo
On a side note I came across this article in the NY Times today while perousing google news a few hours ago on Hilary. Link
She claims several hours after Obama's speech today that she had not seen it, nor read the text of the speech. Sure Hilary. Another typical example of our lying deceitful politicians. She has only spent in excess of $100,000,000 dollars to win the nomination, thousands of hours campaigning, crying in front of the media, but when Mr. Obama makes a speech, she hasnt seen it yet. Awww Hilary.
73 - Baronius
Gosh, Pablo, I didn't see that coming, but I'm glad you feel good about yourself. (You're practically black yourself, aren't you, you deeply tanned English-German you?)
I don't care about race, but I'm not going to pretend to be something I'm not.
By the way, England and Germany are two countries with great track records on the subject of race. But that doesn't matter, because who you are isn't determined by your ancestry.
74 - REMF
"And BTW, you didn't volunteer for service, MCH. You joined solely because there was a draft, so don't try to set yourself above anyone."
- Dave Nalle
That's not true, Nalle. I enlisted in the spring of 1970 AFTER the lottery took place, and I learned that my number of 275 was well above the cut-off of #190 for that year.
Unlike Rush Limbaugh, who lied about his #152 being "too high" for the draft (and received a medical deferment for a cyst on his ass).
75 - Dave Nalle
I stand corrected, MCH. Clearly you had a desperate need for the special kind of naval training you get on the volleyball court in Hawaii.
Dave