Supporting the Marines at Haditha is not a popular thing these days, but I'm doing it. Here's why.
My co-writer Heidi and I have been watching the Haditha situation unfold over at Euphoric Reality, and we’ve held our tongues until now. However, after reading some of the military bloggers’ comments and seeing the cover-my-ass-in-case-I’m-wrong crap from some other conservative bloggers, I’ve decided I can’t be silent anymore. Our view is unpopular, it’s intolerant, it’s anything but understanding. But it’s realistic. Take it as you will.…
Article comments
26 - Deano
I have to agree with Embersfire - you are not fighting a stand-up war here, it is a counter-insurgency operation. Leaving aside the moral question (and there bloody well is a moral question involved here, so don't just frame it as a black and white, left-right partisan dispute) if you study effective counter-insurgency operations through history, wanton and indiscriminate slaughter of the civilian population is not an effective tactic at reducing support for an insurgency. The Marines know this.
So yes the Marines need to be able to fight a bloody Okinawa-style fight if they need to but they also need to be adapatable to a insurgency-based approach which from all accounts is the most likely type of warfare they will be facing int eh 21st century. If the Marines are not capable of this approach perhaps as a unit they are inappropriate for service in Iraq. I don't think they are. My understanding the Marine's probably have a better grasp on small arms warfare and COIN they most of the other units deployed in Iraq, no that's a poor excuse.
The reality is that mistakes can and do happen, as do moments when discipline breaks etc. It still doesn't give them the excuse.
The discipline breakdown at Abu Gahrib and now at Haditha (if it ends up being confirmed) have arguably done more damage to the US position in Iraq then any amount of insurgent bombs. It erodes support at home, destroys any moral ground the US might have been able to assume in displacing Saddam, feeds the perceptions of the US as an enemy across the Middle East, helps radicalize and recruit new terrorists and insurgents and weakens the existing iraqi government support.
Where exactly do see you any benefits in all this? If the events at Hadathia unfolded as claimed and the Marines are found culpable, there is no valid excuse. If guilty, they violated their own precepts, discipline and honor...and they know it.
27 - Baetrice
Kit,
I strongly agree with what you wrote here. And, I'm quite used to having 'unpopular opinions'. :) As a Leftie who's world has been shaken up by being in a relationship with a Marine combat vet, the Marines in this scenario have my empathy. I have actually spent a lot of time imagining what it must be like to be in Iraq day after day as a Military personnel constantly wondering where the next explosion is going to happen, or as an Iraqi civilian who wants from life exactly the same things I do...to live life without fear, and so have the opportunity to live out one's dreams. I think most Americans don't want to face the reality of war...or, how we all contribute to the universal consciousness that creates its reality. Yes, we set up rules of engagement so that we can believe in honorable killing, maiming, and destruction. But, I think that is truly a veiled distinction. I honor the Marines at Haditha. May we not put them out to dry as a salvo for our own collective guilt.
28 - Michael J. West
May we not put them out to dry as a salvo for our own collective guilt.
I don't want us to do that either. I'd rather we put them out to dry as a salvo for THEIR guilt, if such be proven.
29 - Baetrice
Hi Michael...I definitely feel very conflicted about what should happen if guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is proven. I've no doubt the Marine Corps/Military justice system will act with swift and sure punishment. I'm just not sure that there is a more swift and sure punishment than what those young men will be carrying in their minds and souls for the rest of their lives.
On a more general note...when does humanity start to choose forgiveness over punishment? What changes would that concept bring to the world? Just thinking out loud.
30 - carolyn
I agree with EVERYTHING you said.
How DARE, we as AMERICANS, turn our back on those who defend our freedoms.
I am a mother of a soldier. And I know what these men and women go through day to day.
the thought of killing innocent women and children curdle their blood. But those same "INONOCENT" women abd children are blowing up IED's to kill or troops.
The parents of the children put them in harms wat EVERY DAY.
Our Military dosn't, the Iraqi people do.
I am in TOTAL SUUPORT OF OUR MARINES.
God Bless every Soldier that continues tofight for our right to live.
31 - zingzing
holy shit. you really have blind faith in people with guns? i'm not screaming "burn them! burn them!" but i am saying that you had better wait til the facts are clear. a murderer is a murderer, no matter if he wears a uniform or not. you even say you would still support them in the case that they did kill them. that's sick. i hope you can live with yourself. can you even say "innocent" and "iraqi" in the same sentence? what does that make you?
break the will of the enemy? by killing innocent children? their parents?
ugh. i have 24 yachts to sell you.
carolyn--remember every story has two sides. why do those parents put their children in harm's way? maybe... because extremists will kill their children if they don't? possible? these people are fucked either way, so don't fucking judge something you don't know about. these people are living with terror all around them. we don't need to add to it.
32 - patrick3333
zingzing--- "a murderer is a murderer, no matter if he wears a uniform or not."
actually, no. it's a war. people die in war ---that's kind of the point. sometimes the wrong people die. most often the "wrong" people die because they're hanging around with bad people.
until you have had .5 seconds to decide whether to shoot someone or possibly get shot yourself, how dare you make such a statement.
Americans want to walk around as citizens of the greatest nation on the planet, but most are not willing to do anything to deserve that honor. And as soon as things turn gray, instead of black and white, they'll sell out the people far braver than them who are earning the honor for them.
I am so sick of people like you, sitting in the comfort of your air conditioned, threat-free home, second-guessing the actions of guys who are doing things you've only done on video games.
Here in the U.S. even the worst of murderers are innocent until proven guilty. A journalist wouldn't dare base a story that implies guilt based only on a police detective's investigation ---but that's exactly what has happened with Haditha.
There is such a rush to judgement here that no one has bothered to recall that our enemies often use women and children as bomb carriers. That it is not at all unusual to see women, children, old people as conduits for destruction. Or ---on the simplest of levels ---in the fog of war sometimes mistakes are made. And mistakes are not murder. They're mistakes. Our criminal justice system here in the U.S. recognizes that ---why can't you?
No ---you'd rather smear a bunch of most-likely honorable Marines --like Pantano ---than give them the benefit of the doubt.
People like you do not the deserve the freedom you have because you have done nothing to gain it and only criticize those willing to do the dirty work for you. Shame on you. I hope you have the opportunity to meet one of these guys some day. I'd bet every penny I have that you'd regret the way you're treating them now. I've met many, many Marines and have yet to be anything but impressed.
33 - Papa Ray
There is an article at the Washington Post that contains statements made by some of the Marines lawyers.
Its a registration only article.
Bottom line what the lawyers say is the the Marines followed the ROE and the killing of the civilians was not intentional, but in response to being fired on.
Which is what you would expect them to say in any event. So everyone, including the Military will have to give them their turn at justice in the Military system.
There are requests out for assistance in getting money together for civilian attorneys. I intend to give as much as I can, as I think they will not get a "fair" trial because of the outside pressure being exerted from all directions on the Military about this.
At this point, I believe that they did their duty and followed the ROE and didn't intend to kill civilians.
You will have to decide what you think.
Papa Ray
West Texas
USA