A short interview with Prof. Norman Finkelstein about the current state of the Israel/Palestine conflict.
Prof. Norman Finkelstein is a prominent and well-respected scholar of the Israel/Palestine conflict. He has written several books on the topic, most notably The Rise and Fall of Palestine and Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict. His most recent work, Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History, is a devastating rebuttal of both Alan Dershowitz’s The Case For Israel and, more generally, defenders of Israel’s human rights record.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Zedd
Ruvy
I do agree with Christopher that religion is kooky. I choose to believe in God even though I know that it is nuts.
There is no way that the Bible makes sense. Abraham was about to kill his son as a sacrifice to a God who owns the universe... was that good?... Its a little loony. Abraham sent his wife off to some other guy and told him that she was his sister because he was scared and she was fine.... would you do that? Jacob cheated his brother out of his inheritance... was that right and good? And God being all knowing just went along with it? He also used his first wife to get to her sister, then favored her children over his older children. What a jerk. That is horrible.
Lots wife turning into sand... I don't think so. Knowing the modern day Arabs and Jews and their tendency to exaggerate and dramatize everything she probably died in the dessert and was covered with sand.
Anyway, the truth is it sounds crazy and kooky.
None of that really makes sense no matter what you say.
What matters is Gods revelation to you and how you affect the world in your time here.
27 - Christopher Rose
Ruvy: NOTHING is impossible, except possibly time travel.
On a more serious note, even if there is archeological evidence that shows that certain past events recorded in the bible, koran or torah actually happened, that does not mean the laughable origin theories these books propound are also true. That would be entirely wishful thinking on your part.
They wouldn't be the only books to base a flight of fancy on some real historical event. C'mon man, let's have a little intellectual and spiritual honesty here, not tragic wishful thinking and supposition.
My perception is that we are alone in this universe (at least until faster than light transport happens, if it can) and we need to accept personal responsibility for our actions during the brief time we're in it.
That needs a certain maturity and personal growth, which the childish nannying of gods and religion is clearly designed to inhibit. That's also why and how you can justify to yourself what you're doing in Israel. You absolve yourself of any personal responsbility for your actions by saying it is the hand of god that guides you.
It follows therefore that religion is the enemy of the common humanity that we all share, my brother. Islam isn't your enemy, your own corrupt beliefs are. The irony is only outweighed by the tragic futility...
28 - STM
Chris says: "Ruvy: NOTHING is impossible, except possibly time travel."
That's not quite right Chris ... even time travel is possible. As you know, it is now almost 2am on Easter Sunday in Australia, but in America it's still Saturday (mid-morning, is it guys?).
Which means, dear boy, I am actually from a spot in the future on the time/space continuum ... yes, Rosey, the spinning of the Earth introduces us even if it's ever so slightly to the notion of time travel.
This is also possibly gives us (mostly) an unfair advantage at cricket and rugby/RL (sorry, mate, couldn't help myself).
29 - Christopher Rose
I'm just glad you're a journalist not a scientist, Stan. Remind me to give you a physics refresher over a pint sometime.
30 - STM
Sounds pretty good though, eh? Gets those bloody Yanks thinking. A pint would be nice right now mate, I must say. One of those nice English ones off the wood in a pub in front of a fire on a cold winter's night where you think you can have another three because they're going down so nicely, and then suddenly you go down so nicely (whilst speaking swahili) ...
31 - Clavos
Stan, I am surprised you admit this:
This is also possibly gives us (mostly) an unfair advantage at cricket and rugby/RL (sorry, mate, couldn't help myself).
I would have thought that you would claim inherent Aussie superiority to a pom (especially one smart enough to have moved to a better climate).
32 - troll
clearly dangerous experiments should be carried out in Australia...thus if things were to go sour the rest of us would have time to reconsider
33 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
"Will you Jews stop beating each other up!"
JOM,
Jamie, the other Jew that appears to be making comments, the author of this idiotic interview, has held his tongue. Two Christians and a militant atheist are the ones commenting, for the most part. The Catholic (at least that's what Stan says he is) is good-naturedly discussing rugby, beer and how the internet makes time travel possible. The other Christian, Zedd (not sure of the denomination), admits her beliefs to be loony, but wants to know why I won't join her in them. The militant atheist holds that believing in G-d allows one off the hook for responsibility for one's actions. That is the Jew's typical condemnation of Christianity, but Chris, not realizing that different faiths view accountability differently, paints me with the Christian's abdication of responsibility for his own actions, and condemns me for it. Amusing, it all is.
So all in all, it is a militant atheist and a Christian of unknown denomination attacking a Jew for his beliefs.
Oh, I forgot somebody. Leslie Bohn, of unknown faith, wants me to see a psychiatrist because I see the world clearly, and he cannot stand the unpalatable truths I lay out. Typical behavior of a Bolshevik, to want to stick a man who tells the truth in a mental institution...
34 - Clavos
Heh.
Well put, Ruvy.
35 - S.T.M
Clav: Chris knows the truth ... I just can't gloat forever without sounding boorish. However, yes, he was smart enough to head for warmer climes and he also is an aficionado of the great game of rugby league, which means he's a bit of a cut above the average pom in my book. Just, mind ...
36 - S.T.M
"clearly dangerous experiments should be carried out in Australia"
Clearly, dangerous experiments have ALREADY been carried out in Australia. Firstly, he Poms sent all the party people to the best place, and look what happened.
Then who knows what happened after that ....
37 - Christopher Rose
Ruvy, your #33 is just total psychobabble fueled by arrogance and conceit. You ought to be ashamed. Not much chance of that as you are in the grip of such a profound religious fever.
For the record, I'm not at all a militant atheist, indeed, I'm not an atheist at all. The very word, as I've said many times, is a faithist term to try and explain away normality and/or sanity. The word ought not to exist, just as there is no word for people who don't believe in astrology.
I don't give a flying fuck how faithists view accountability, they are all deluded and ultimately not to be trusted with anything of great import, because they'll always act in accordance with their affliction, rather than doing the right thing.
You aren't laying out the truth of anything, you're simply displaying the symptomology of your disease.
STM: Union, mate, not League...
38 - alessandro Nicolo
Wo, wo, wo, WO! Stan?
You can be critical of Israel and not be anti-Semitic. It's a democracy after all.
This guy, Finkelstein. This dude is scary.
Good interview.
39 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Chris,
"I don't give a flying fuck how faithists view accountability, they are all deluded and ultimately not to be trusted with anything of great import, because they'll always act in accordance with their affliction, rather than doing the right thing."
Sorry, mate. You haven't outgrown needing the Bible as a spiritual guide to tell you right from wrong. Your primary delusion, such as it is, is thinking you have. That disease afflicts Spain and the rest of Europe, which is why the Moslems are beginning to overrun you all and succeeding. The same disease afflicts much of the United States, but not to the same degree.
In the mental hospital in Giv'at Sha'ul in north Jerusalem there is an "I don't give a flying fuck" ward for those who truly don't. It's just down the hall from the "Napoleon and messiah" ward, if my sources tell me correctly. I'll reserve a spot for you if you'd like. We can discuss rugby (you can teach me the finer points of the game) while you sip on a pint, and while I drink a latté...
I'll reserve a spot for Leslie Bohn also if he desires and visit the two of you on Sunday afternoons between police shifts.
40 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Alessandro,
Read the comments closely here. The person who is most critical of the State of Israel is - me.
41 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Chris,
I just checked my contract with my health insurance provider, and they won't cover your stay at Giv'at Sha'ul. Sorry.
Let's take a different approach. Elsewhere, you said, "I wish my role "(as comments editor) wasn't necessary, but then I also wish that people could abandon the childish insecurity that makes them lash out at each other in fear and anger.
Here you say, "I don't give a flying fuck how faithists view accountability, they are all deluded and ultimately not to be trusted with anything of great import, because they'll always act in accordance with their affliction, rather than doing the right thing.
You aren't laying out the truth of anything, you're simply displaying the symptomology of your disease."
That's not exactly lashing out in "anger" or "fear." Let's try dismissive contempt. That is why you've not outgrown the Bible (or at least the Seven Commandments of Noah) as a guide for ethical behavior, and why your comments have the tone that reeks of anger, as well as dismissive contempt...
42 - Christopher Rose
Ruvy, you're the one that needs some aged tome to tell you what to think and do.
My comments are indeed dismissive of the presumption and arrogance you display, but that's okay, I know you simply can't help yourself, like all people afflicted with the faithist delusion.
It's not contempt though, pity would be more apt; pity for the fixed nature of your illness and the hatred and contempt it makes you display for others. Of course, that's just the disease trying to protect itself, like the malign parasitic mental illness it is.
43 - Jamie Stern-Weiner
"Read the comments closely here. The person who is most critical of the State of Israel is - me."
Yeh, but whereas most sane people criticise it for acting too whacko and crazy, you criticise it for not being crazy and whacko enough.
44 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Chris,
I do not need an aged tome to tell me what to do or what to think. Neither do you. But I have enough intelligence to recognize that I have not outgrown the need for that aged tome as a guide to moral behavior. And neither have you. Each additional comment you pile on laying contempt of my views in this comment thread gives proof to the other readers of this magazine of the truth of that assertion.
All you need do is say, "I disagree with you, Ruvy." Everything else you have said here has demeaned your own standing as a reasonable person holding to a point of view. All the accusations, name calling and the rest may sound good in a pub over a few pints, but do not look good on the virtual "paper" used here.
What really bothers you is that I also use that aged tome as a guide to the future. That one can do so reliably has been the big discovery of my middle years. It does not make me particularly smart. People far wiser than I have know this for centuries.
But, it means that instead of being mired in the misleading stupidity that causes the Heathlander and people like Norman Finkelstein to hold the misguided (I'm being generous and polite here) views they do, I see a very different reality.
45 - Christopher Rose
I don't believe in morality, Ruvy, it's just another aspect of the faithist deception. Ethical behaviour though, that's a whole other story. Try it some time...
If you think simply saying "I disagree with you, Ruvy" is an adequate response to the nonsense you're writing, that's just yet another illusion you're piling on top of all the others that are infecting your brain.
What really bothers me is exactly what I said it was. The fact that you feel the need to pretend it's something else, as per the penultimate paragraph in your #44, is simply further evidence of the advanced stage of the disease that ails you.
Were you a little more clear headed, you'd at the very least take my words at face value rather than desperately trying to re-write the script to conform with your infection.
You don't see reality at all, for reality would compell you to acknowledge that your views on this topic are delirious nonsense. The spirit of reality doesn't compel you, alas.
What you see is dogma corrupting your heart but you lack either the ability or the integrity to admit it. This is the very heart of darkness and I truly pity you as you mentally thrash around, babbling "I'm sane, I'm sane", just like every other manic preacher. It would be comic if it weren't so pathetically tragic.
Again, what a waste of a good human life as the poison and hate of the lie consumes you. I could weep it's so inutterably pointless and sad.
46 - Clavos
Christopher writes:
I don't believe in morality, Ruvy, it's just another aspect of the faithist deception. Ethical behaviour though, that's a whole other story.
Interesting.
And yet, most people believe one can't really separate the two. For example, the online Britannica Concise Encyclopedia employs the word "moral" liberally in this definition of "ethics":
ethics
Branch of philosophy concerned with the nature of ultimate value and the standards by which human actions can be judged right or wrong. The term is also applied to any system or theory of moral values or principles. Ethics is traditionally subdivided into normative ethics, metaethics, and applied ethics. Normative ethics seeks to establish norms or standards of conduct; a crucial question in this field is whether actions are to be judged right or wrong based on their consequences or based on their conformity to some moral rule, such as "Do not tell a lie." Theories that adopt the former basis of judgment are called consequentialist (see consequentialism); those that adopt the latter are known as deontological (see deontological ethics). Metaethics is concerned with the nature of ethical judgments and theories. Since the beginning of the 20th century, much work in metaethics has focused on the logical and semantic aspects of moral language. Some major metaethical theories are naturalism (see naturalistic fallacy), intuitionism, emotivism, and prescriptivism. Applied ethics, as the name implies, consists of the application of normative ethical theories to practical moral problems (e.g., abortion). Among the major fields of applied ethics are bioethics, business ethics, legal ethics, and medical ethics.
For more information on ethics, visit Britannica.com.
47 - Christopher Rose
However, I think they are clearly different. Morals are derived from faithist principles whilst ethics are clearly not, to my way of thinking at least.
48 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
"Morals are derived from faithist principles whilst ethics are clearly not, to my way of thinking at least."
Why don't you show proof of your assertion, Chris? Us insane religious people need to be shown the true path...
49 - A Concerned Citizen
Christopher:
You don't see reality at all, for reality would compell you to acknowledge that your views on this topic are delirious nonsense
You've used the word "arrogance" to describe Ruvy's beliefs more than once in this thread. Isn't this indicative of the same arrogance, just of an opposite opinion? You keep claiming Ruvy doesn't see reality, but neither do you. The truth is that nobody knows. Ruvy doesn't know if religion is true, you do not know if it is false.
Besides that, trying to say that "atheist" doesn't define you, or that it even acknowledges the question of God. . . is just plain stupid. Man defines himself in relation to society and -- guess what -- society believes in God. So when you're called an "atheist", you've earned that place because of your relative position to everyone else. Just deal with it.
50 - A Concerned Citizen
Christopher
Multiple times you've accused Ruvy of being "arrogant" in his beliefs. You're statements, such as "You don't see reality at all, for reality would compell you to acknowledge that your views on this topic are delirious nonsense" suggest the same arrogance. The truth of the matter is that no one knows either way.
Also, you're disdain for the title "atheist" because it even acknowledges the question of God is ludicrous. A man defines himself in terms of the society he lives in. Society believes in God, so atheist is the right term for you. You're just a speck in the ocean -- society defines you, not the other way around.
On a final note, whether you believe in God or not, the Bible does have some actual wisdom lodged between its pages. You're arrogance may have blinded you to it, but it's there. Look hard and with an open mind, maybe you'll find it.
51 - Christopher Rose
If you were paying attention, Concerned Citizen, you'd know that I've said on more than one occasion that I can't prove my view. However, the evidence to support Ruvy's view is precisely nil, which makes his perspective little more than empty fanaticism. The very absence of evidence is enough for me to feel a high level of confidence in my view.
Furthermore, I've also said on frequently that I wish there is a god and if it deigns to turn up one day I'll be down the front singing o happy day with the most pious and fervent believers.
You're so busy trying to argue with me that you're paying as little attention to my words as the Ruvster himself. I said atheist is a faithist term designed to explain away people like me who don't buy the story, to make the believers feel a little more comfortable in their delusion.
Society doesn't believe in anything at all, it's made up of billions of people with wildly diverse views so that point too falls completely flat on its face.
Fianlly, I've never said the bible doesn't have any wisdom lodged in its pages. Your arrogance is blinding you so I'd suggest you spend a bit more time paying attention to what's being said and a little less being myopic and making an ass of yourself with shabby thinking and try to open your own mind a little more.
52 - Christopher Rose
Oh and Ruvy, it's my opinion, based on an understanding of what the words mean. There is no "true path", that's just another faithist way of trying to explain the world that is simply inappropriate to our shared reality. There are many paths, but those based on childishly shallow interpretation are clearly dangerous red herrings that divide and imperil us all.
53 - Zedd
Ruvy
Feel free to ask questions about Christianity anytime you like.
It's quite clear that you don't understand it.
What I was referring to in my original post to you was YOUR religion (the old testament). I did not touch on the teachings of Christ at all.
What Christianity says is EVERYONE is flawed and falls short of the perfection which is God. Your "good" deeds will not gain you favor with God because your deeds don't show your heart. God only cares about your heart. You may quote a million passages of scriptures, or give all of your wealth to the poor but without real love, it is meaningless.
Christianity is about the ultimate personal responsibility. The responsibility of one when no one is around.
We are off topic but I thought I would clarify.
54 - Zedd
Chris
Ethic is actually philosophy of morals. Its just a study of morals.
You may be referring to morays which are the beliefs that exists because of an unwritten social code of in any given civilization that govern conduct.
However, when that code is broken there are consequences. The consequences and the the code it self are often originally attributed to some supernatural experience (e.g. a deity)
55 - Clavos
You may be referring to morays which are the beliefs that exists because of an unwritten social code of in any given civilization that govern conduct.
Actually they're salt water eels. What you're referring to is mores.
56 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Clavos,
Mores - you mean that boring stuff in the Soc 101 classes that put me to sleep so regularly? Give me morays over mores anytime. At least you get a little action out the the morays instead of a long snooze to final exams....
57 - Clavos
Ever spear a moray, Ruvy, and have the sucker come swimming up the shaft of the spear at you?
They are mean mothers.
58 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
They are mean mothers.
Clavos,
You're going to have me drooling over all the things I probably won't get to do in life, like spearing morays. I'll tell you one thing, though. If you don't feed those sociology profs the porridge they want from you on finals, they can be very mean mothers...
59 - Zedd
Clavos
That was a deliberate choice in spelling. Actually there are times when it is spelled m o r a y s.
I chose to use that spelling because "mores" would be confusing and the link to "morals" could not be easily reached.
However Clavos, I hope that you understood the SUBSTANCE behind the comment. I know that you get easily distracted but try to focus on the main idea.
60 - Clavos
Yeah, I know.
The toughest teachers I had were at an English school in Mexico City called "Greengates," (actually it had an "official" name that no one ever used, which I can no longer remember.)
If you were stupid in those classes, you got rapped severely on the knuckles; talk about motivation! Heh. I still have the scars :>)
More serious offenses merited a paddling on the behind from the headmistress in her office.
Change of subject, Ruvy:
I know you used to live in the Twin Cities. My sister lives there now, so I'm pretty up-to-date about what's going on there. As you may be aware, they are becoming a center of Muslim activity; they elected Muslim Keith Ellison to Congress and now have a substantial colony of Somalis in the area.
I know you've heard about the Somali cab drivers at the airport refusal to accept passengers carrying liquor, but had you also heard about the Somali cashiers at Target who are refusing to check out customers' pork products?
Interesting that such a vanilla place as Minnesota appears to be morphing into the focal point of US Muslim culture, eh?
61 - Clavos
Actually there are times when it is spelled m o r a y s
No, dear, not with that meaning it's not. Look it up.
It's an eel or a county in Scotland. That's it.
Using one of your favorite lines:
Stop embarrassing yourself, Zedd.
62 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Clavos,
I didn't know about the Somali cashiers at Target. What they are doing goes against civil law and the mores of the land, but it is nice to see that some Somalis have the courage to attempt to stand by their convictions. It would be nice to see them practice peace on their own turf in Somalia, but that is another subject altogether, one where my ignorance far outweighs anything of intelligence I could contribute.
Actually, it is no surprise to see "vanilla" Minnesota turning into a hub of Moslem activity. The "guilty liberal" mentality that rules the governing elites there makes it much like Europe - which as I pointed out to friend Christopher, is succumbing to Moslem activism as well, activism of a much less benign nature.
I suspect that the activism of the Somalis, added to the corroding influence of that CAIR has just gotten in Congressman Ellison, will move that state to far less benign Moslem activism in the near future. I fear that we are due for some very nasty surprises from there soon. Bloomington, MN is the home to the largest shopping mall in the United States. On a crowded day...
I think you get the picture.
63 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
In ciomment #12 I quoted the Torah:
"They provoked Me with a non-god, angered Me with their vanities; so shall I provoke them with a non-people, with a vile nation shall I anger them." [D'varím/Deuteronomy 32:21]
Now we see further evidence of what this means when translated into modern terms.
These comments and the attached article come courtesy of Aryeh Zelasko.
Once insanity become the means of deciding national issues, even the most obvious dangers can be ignored. It is a time honored practice to throw a dead horse or cow into you enemy's water supply. This along with burning his crops and other minor annoyance tend to aid in destroying and reduce the amount of fighting needed to win a war.
21:53 , 04.01.07 Doomsday Weapon? Gaza sewage nightmare Sewage disaster in Gaza may be harbinger of Palestinian 'doomsday weapon'
Martin Sherman
The following excerpt was taken from a classified report by Israel's Water Commission on the "Impact of the disengagement, summer 2005."
"...if the Palestinians go ahead with their plans to lay a sewage pipe that drains into the sea in the northern Gaza Strip, it will paralyze the largest desalination plant in Ashkelon and pollute the nearby beaches. Crippling the operation of the desalination plant by piping sewage into the sea from northern Gaza is intolerable for the national water system. Any attempt to lay a pipe that drains sewage into the sea and pollutes our coastline must be physically stopped."
The recent tragic incident in which the Bedouin settlement of Umm Naser in the Northern Gaza Strip was flooded by sewage when the wall of a nearby wastewater storage facility collapsed serves to underscore the myopic folly of the "disengagement" concept, and the impossible - but not impossible to predict -situations in which it places Israel, and will continue to do so in the future.
Some kind of "sewage debacle" was virtually predestined to occur after Israel's hasty and ill-considered evacuation of Gaza. Immediately after the withdrawal, veteran military commentator Zeev Schiff published an article entitled "From wastewater to war" (the Hebrew version bore the title "Worse than Qassam rockets") where he spelled out the dire hydro-strategic dangers that would confront Israel if the question of Gaza's sewage was not adequately addressed.
The rest of this article can be found at the website link above...
64 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
More proof for my assertion in comment #12:
"They provoked Me with a non-god, angered Me with their vanities; so shall I provoke them with a non-people, with a vile nation shall I anger them." [D'varím/Deuteronomy 32:21]
2 soldiers stabbed in Cave of Patriarchs; Stabber shot in leg
By JPOST.COM STAFF (the Jerusalem Post Online)
It is important to note that this stabbing took place in a cave that is both a synagogue and a mosque. We know that these Arabs have no respect for our religion; what kind of respect do they have for their own that they would kill in a mosque?
A no-nation that is a vile people... By their own hands do they show themselves for what they truly are...
65 - Christopher Rose
You may want to revisit the defintion of the word "proof" Ruvy. This falls a long way short. It is, however, entirely in keeping with the self-deceiving wish fulfillment you specialise in. Truly you are showing us what you are by your own hand...
66 - Leslie Bohn
One of the first casualties of the disease of faithism is logic. Check Ruvy's reasoning:
I do not need an aged tome to tell me what to do or what to think. Neither do you. But I have enough intelligence to recognize that I have not outgrown the need for that aged tome as a guide to moral behavior.
He doesn't need it, but he hasn't outgrown the need for it. Which means, um, he needs it.
It is sad, as Mr. Rose more eloquently says, that Ruvy and so many others like him, are so deluded that they literally cannot think straight.
It is also scary, given the hatred and violence that emanates from Ruvy's ominous "prophecy" posts, which are vile and crazy.
67 - Zedd
Clavos sed: If you were stupid in those classes, you got rapped severely on the knuckles; talk about motivation! Heh. I still have the scars :>)
Did they also drop you on your head? Off course I'm joking as ussual.
Seriously, that sounds like schools in SA. I started my first year there and I still have scares in my knuckles too. What horrible thing could a five year old do? If you forgot a word from the lengthy recitation of the day, you got beaten. One teacher used a ruler (the metal tipped side) to rap your knuckles with, on your writing hand. You would have swollen, purple knuckles for a week and you would be expected to write every day on your slate.
Older kids had it worse. They used whips on them. The teacher would yell "let him/her fly" and they'd have 4 big boys lift you into the air..... You would be strapped seriously for the simplest infraction. In my Dad's day, there was a teacher of his who had a tub filled with salt water and a leather strap soaking at all times. It would strip your skin and the salt would get into the wound..... fun stuff. But that was Apartheid. People were mad! Its amazing that people were still determined to study and learn.
The determination is still there but sanity prevails. Now they are suffering from a backlash of excessive psychobabble.
68 - Zedd
Clavos sed: Stop embarrassing yourself, Zedd.
I'm sorta flattered. That's what I say to you all of the time.
69 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Let's look at comment #66 folks. The beknighted Leslie Bohn would tell me that my logic was faulty. I wrote, "I do not need an aged tome to tell me what to do or what to think. Neither do you. But I have enough intelligence to recognize that I have not outgrown the need for that aged tome as a guide to moral behavior."
The benighted Mr. Bohn cannot tell the difference between being told what to think and a guide to moral (or ethical) behavior. There is a world of difference between the one - a book that merely tells you what to do, and the other, a guide to the questions that arise when good sense and a clear understanding of the ethical imperatives are just not enough.
But our beknighted Mr. Bohn misses the difference by a country mile. Why am I not surprised?
Leslie - because you are such a nice guy, I'll be glad to tutor you in English comprehension for a mere 50 shekels an hour. It's a bargain rate offered only to the poor and truly needy (new immigrants are usually even poorer and more truly needy - they get the same deal for 40 shekels an hour). Whattya say, Les? - $12.15/hr is a bargain rate, really.
Gimme a holler.
70 - Christopher Rose
Ruvy, you offering to teach somebody comprehension would be like asking a politician to give lessons on integrity. Unlikely in the extreme. Until you can free your mind from the dogma that binds it - and we both know that's something you're incapable of.
71 - Leslie Bohn
Mr. Ruvy:
The book in question does indeed tell you what to do. (You might note the "Shalt not" parts for starters.)
Maybe you should reread your original sentence and rethink the circular logic it employs rather than come up with some arcane distinction after the fact to try to make it seem like you meant something else.
What sort of moral guide doesn't tell you what to do or think? This is what a "guide" is, by definition. Merely is your word. I'd never apply it to a book as complex, rich, and contradictory as the Bible.
"Beknighted" and benighted,
L
72 - S.T.M
Zedd asked (of Clavos): "Did they also drop you on your head? Off course I'm joking as ussual"
Lol. What a gem ... shattered the concrete Clav??
73 - Clavos
I'm half Swede; what do you think?
74 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Leslie,
Mr. Ruvy?
Reading comprehension is applied when the text requires something more than mere obvious scanning.
If, as an adult, you still need to be told, "you will not steal," or "you will not lie," you're seriously in trouble. Generally, if you steal, you'll have cops all over you like a bad fitting suit, complete with cuffs. Lying you may get away with - for a while. Lies have a nasty way of sneaking up on you when you are not looking. All of a sudden, "SNAP!" and you are ensnared, looking like a deer that is about to be roadkill.
All that is rather obvious, and neither Chris Rose nor I need to be told not to lie or steal - or to be very careful if we do.
All that is the easy stuff - for kindergarten kids, so to speak. Chris, for all of his militant atheism, is unlikely to steal, lie or commit murder.
But there is more to the Torah than just elements of the Ten Commandments and elaboration of it. There are issues of manslaughter, damages, sexual behavior and it is not at all that clear oftimes what is really being said, or even what is being referred to.
And then there is that basic little piece of advice - honor your mother and father so that you may stay long on the land which I have given you. Who among us does not go to his parents for advice, if he can?
But there are other issues: sexual relations, whether to "do it" or not, etc., etc., where the Torah and Bible are both helpful, both in the commandments they set down, but also in the examples the people about the Bible is about act. If life where all that clear cut, none of us would be writing here - except the sports and entertainment reviewers.
So the offer still stands, Les. Sounds to me like you need help reading...
75 - S.T.M
Ruvy wrote: "There are issues of ... sexual behavior."
Thank God for the Sacrament of confession ...