Can foaming-at-the-mouth, anti-American liberals be patriotic for one day?
To all members of the Angry Left:…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
An Independence Day Open Letter To The "Blame America" Crowd - Comments Page 5
Can foaming-at-the-mouth, anti-American liberals be patriotic for one day?
To all members of the Angry Left:…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments176 - Christopher Rose
The thing is, MCH, I kind of half agree with you about your point but there are two problems with your strategy.
Firstly, it gets really repetitive, predictable and irritating to keep saying the same thing, even to people who agree with you.
Secondly is that in a way it's kind of lazy thinking on your part and actually gets in the way of engaging directly with the nonsense these bellicose bullies spout.
Just sayin'.
177 - RogerMDillon
"to lump all the military in with...the asshole that raped and murdered an entire family"
Andy, what happened in the past two days to change your opinion from "4 guys may or may not have raped a woman and murdered her family""
He pleaded not guilty, so "I say fuck you just for writing it!" Now we're even.
Do you want examples of saying bad things about the Left about BCers or in the real world? You are going to find much praise from me for either group.
178 - Dave Nalle
Secondly is that in a way it's kind of lazy thinking on your part and actually gets in the way of engaging directly with the nonsense these bellicose bullies spout.
Plus he's so intellectually lazy that he can't tell the difference between a chickenhawk and someone who just supports the people in our armed forces or a chickenhawk and someone who thinks we should actually THINK about administration policies before condemning them arbitrarily.
Dave
179 - Mark Edward Manning
Andy, re: #122. I'm with you all the way.
(Please forgive my absence on here for a day. I've been away on vacation with my wife, having some "downtime.")
180 - sr
Gonzo#93. Real nice Sweet Pea. Sucking and fucking seems to be your fourtae since you exited left of your outhouse. Be proud of who you are Sweet Pea.
181 - MCH
"Secondly is that in a way it's kind of lazy thinking on your part and actually gets in the way of engaging directly with the nonsense these bellicose bullies spout."
Christopher;
Thanx for the constructive criticism. I'm just me, you know, complete with all my flaws and weaknesses. But with all due respect, I must disagree with your "bellicose bullies" label...
..."bellicose bully/wimps" would be more accurate, IMO...
182 - Dave Nalle
There's only one kind of bullying I see going on in these pointless diversions and it all comes from MCH. The rest of us are trying to have a discussion and he just wants to bully people he doesn't agree with into silence.
Dave
183 - Dave Nalle
Come to think of it, it's a tactic rather similar to those who dismiss anything said about Europe by Americans because we're an 'immature nation', and just as much of a cheap shot.
Dave
184 - Christopher Rose
I don't think you've got any room to be criticising others for lazy thinking, Dave, it seems to be a broad lifestyle for you. There's proof of that in your comment above where you changed my words. I said the USA is a juvenile nation, which is simply an accurate description of fact which that fetid mass you call your brain changed to immature. There is a difference, both in definition and intent, that you seem unable to grasp. I wonder if there's a name for people who continually warp reality to suit their rigid thought processes, something less provocative than "bigot" perhaps..?
185 - Dave Nalle
Sorry Christopher, I was being nice. Good of you to remind us that the term you used was more derrogatory and even less accurate.
I wonder if there's a name for people who continually warp reality to suit their rigid thought processes, something less provocative than "bigot" perhaps..?
'Eurocentrist'? Or just 'Christopher Rose', perhaps. But then the more of your irrational hate I read the more I lean towards 'bigot'.
Dave
186 - Mohjho
I seem to remember way back when conservatives would whine about the government and call it patriotic. I guess big government and restricted rights are the flavor of the day.
I don't recognize any of the above posters descriptions of the right or the left. It does look like the politics of talking points. Just rhetoric, no substance.
187 - gonzo marx
Mohjho sez...
*I don't recognize any of the above posters descriptions of the right or the left. It does look like the politics of talking points. Just rhetoric, no substance.*
Quoted for Truth
which is why i try my best to talk about Issues or specific Individuals...
one can search ALL of my commentary here on BC, as well as my Articles, and one will find i do NOT get into "conservatives" as a group , or "liberals" as a group...
the only groupage i even hit on are the political gangs labelled the Dems or the GOP ( i refuse to call them "republicans" for various reasons)
if only folks woudl deal with specifics and lay aside the broad brush bullshit...then perhaps meaningful dialogue coudl take place and the very real Problems facing us could be worked on rather than bullshit bickering and name calling...
just a Thought
Excelsior?
188 - Amanda
Isn't the fourth the perfect time to remember the absolute necessity put forth in the Declaration of Independence for the people to revolt when government becomes destructive of their liberties? However else you view the founding of this country, it's right there, in the first official document:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
That strikes me as the most important thing to remember, on Independence Day, and all year long.
189 - Christopher Rose
DAVE: me a bigot? Thanks again for the huge comedy input you bring to Blogcritics.
How you get the idea that describing the USA as juvenile is derogatory only you know, but it is quite literally accurate.
190 - Dave Nalle
How else to describe the attitude of someone who is dismissive and condescending to an entire nation of 300 million people?
Anyone who considers a particular class of people or group of people - even a nation - as inherently inferior can only be described as a bigot, especially when the position he holds is irrational and cannot be defended with any kind of factual support.
Perhaps 'juvenile' means something different where you come from. The common definition here is "Marked by immaturity; childish."
Sounds derogatory to me.
Dave
191 - Christopher Rose
Dave, my so-called dismissive attitude only exists in the insecurity of your own mind. Unfortunately it seems the difference between juvenile and "inherently inferior" is not.
If you want to swap definitions, a bigot is someone who is intolerant of opinions differing from their own. That sounds like you, as you apparently can't tolerate the fact that mine is different to yours. Mind you, juveniles are also similarly intolerant...
192 - gonzo marx
..:::munches popcorn:::..
/whispers
ummm....but a good Case can be made that, as a Nation, we are juveniles...we just happen to the the most bad ass juveniles in History...
and that, for U.S., the Test will be coming to Maturity as the World "flattens"
but i digress...
/end whispers
..:::munches more popcorn:::..
Excelsior?
193 - Dave Nalle
There's a differnece between 'juvenile' and 'youthful', but I'd argue that at 230 years we're more in the decadent and increasingly degenerate phase of old age. Perhaps a second childhood.
As for Christopher's attitude #191 pretty much speaks for itself.
Dave
194 - gonzo marx
"old age"???
lmgdao
let's see...the current boundaries of China were set at the founding of the Chin Dynasty commonly dated around 238BC...there's India...hell, even European nations are what? average of about 1000 years basicly, with some border changes here and there...
all the Nations of the America's are kids...the bastard mixxed children of many Nations, evolving in various Ways...with the U.S. as having stomped onto the World Stage as starry eyed Idealists of a "noble experiment" Republic...and showed a drive and energy that flung U.S. into History are a major Player...
my Thought is that, due to the Nature of our Republic, we have our good Moments...and those that are not as good...it's just that due to our Influence, those all appear to loom Larger than most in comparison...
our manner of dealing with , say...the Balkans, was Mature....but some might consider, say... pre-emptive Invasion, as a bit ....juvenile
really...just Thinking out loud, not even tossing stones... i just can't even conceive of the whole "old age" bit....
not even in dog years...
Excelsior?
195 - Christopher Rose
Thanks for the qualified support, gonzo. I'm not dissing the USA at all, Dave just seems to have this huge pre-emptive defensive over-reaction.
Hmmm, I think the USA is juvie, Dave thinks it's in the "decadent and increasingly degenerate phase of old age". Yet I hate the USA?. Double hmmm...
196 - gonzo marx
now now, Christopher...i really ain't etting between you two....
watching the virtual wedgies fly back and forth is Low Comedy at it's finest....
i Jest...i kid...
difficult to stand back and try and See it all properly from the Inside
one could Argue that the sheer acceleration of History since the U.S. stepped onto the Stage about 100 years ago might be Aging U.S. pre-Maturely...
hence my "dog years" earlier...
still, "early 20's" (we knock of a zero for Nations...woudl make U.S. 23) can be a trying Stage of Growth...a Testing of Character, if you will...
objects in mirror are closer than they appear
Excelsior?
197 - Dave Nalle
Gonzo, the current nation of China dates back to the 1930s, not to the 2nd century BC. I'm talking about nations, not about cultural or ethnic groups here.
Fact is the US is pretty old for a republic. Think about some of the other historical republics. How long did they last? Rome has the record with about 350 years as a functional republic. Next is the Polish republic at 219 years. Switzerland is running at 208 years as a republic. All of the various French republics added together are only about 150 years. After that you've got lots and lots of republics around the world running at less than 100 years. Straight dictatorships rarely outlast the dictator and communist government or other forms of absolutist oligarchies usually fall apart in less than 100 years. Historically monarchies seem to be the only form of government which can last more than a few hundred years uninterrupted.
Dave
198 - gonzo marx
/sigh
please note, the date i gave was for the setting of her Boundaries, which have remain, more or less, unchanged since the date i gave...
i Understand your point as it concerns "modern" countries... but i have been speaking of Nations, not governments...
no real Quarrel here, as i said...just tossing a Thought into the gears
Excelsior?
199 - Dave Nalle
Is Roman Gaul the same nation as Modern France? The borders are more or less the same, but the language, culture, ethnic composition and government are all different.
Looking at this history of nation states seems more sensible than trying to define the identity of a nation by its boundaries. Even identifying it as a continuous cultural tradition makes no sense, in which case the US would be one of the branches continuing the tradition of British culture.
dave
200 - gonzo marx
one could Argue that Roman Gaul was the Birth of what we know now as France...it grew, and changed, from Napolean, Revoloution to present....with a lot in between...
similar Argument for Britain beginning at the founding of Londinium...
and thus North America is an offshoot of English and French influence...a touch of Dutch early on...and a steady stream of everybody else ever since
on and on...
Excelsior?
201 - Dave Nalle
One could also argue that our current society is the sum total of all societies which have gone before, but where does that really get us?
Dave
202 - SonnyD
If I could interrupt for a minute. I have a problem. I usually get here late-should be in bed sleeping. Don't have time to read all the BC articles so I developed the habit of checking to see what gonzo has been commenting on.
In other words, if gonzo thinks it's worthy of discussion, I'll probably find it interesting. Now, the comment column on the right lists gonzo with 15 comments but his page says 0 comments.
What's going on? Is this intentional?
203 - gonzo marx
where?
to say that our Iteration is still young...
juvenile, perhaps...
/ducks
Excelsior?
204 - mschannon
MEM: RE: 109 & 111, it would be nice if both the radical left and radical right could stop throwing cow shit all over the field. I'm tired of cleaning my shoes every time I come inside...or before I come inside.
I don't know the answer. Part of it is how an article is first written, although my article on "extremism" got its share of wild men & women dancing naked covered in blood around the May Pole trying to sacrifice anyone whose opinion different from theirs'.
But the best we can do is to make three decisions:
One: I will endeavor at all times to treat others and other's points of view with respect and consider them honestly regardless of what assholes or stupid they are. (Until it becomes intolerable, and then you can bash them.)
Two: I will not let hyperbole, exageration, distortion, or rage distort my arguments. (Unless I'm doing satire, when all holds are off.)
Three: I will assume that most people honestly believe what they're saying, and regardless of how much I think it's unimaginable drivel, I will respond with respect. (Until you run into complete morons whose only goal is to stir up shit. They may be fileted at will.)
By the way, I love this country and am thankful I was born here (except maybe very rich in Paris). But I also never forget whoever it was who said, "Democracy is the worst form of government ever invented--except for all the rest."
That means we're always going to be screwing things up, and, as citizens, we have a responsibility to speak out.
P.S. Mr. Schannon? I may be old, but there's no reason to rub it in. It's Mark, LOL.
In Decaf Veritas
205 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Amanda, I don't like to say this, but those eloquent lines in the Declaration of Independence have no force of law in America, and are a distant reflection of the Bill of Rights of 1689 passed by the English parliament which talks about protecting "life, liberty and property."
206 - gonzo marx
true there is no force of Law there, Ruvy...
but it is an expression of the Ideal, of the one thing that Unifies all of U.S. weirdos and freaks and holy rollers, and soccer moms and NASCAR dads and latte' drinking hip urbanites and college professors and car mechanics and commune farmers and pocket protector nerds...
and the vast panalopy of disparate Individuals that makes U.S.
personal Liberty, property rights...and the ability for "the pursuit of happiness"...
one would think you would be well Aware that there are some things you don't need Laws for...
go figure
Excelsior?
207 - Mark Edward Manning
Gonzo, re no. 141 - I have the same beef with Clinton over the WTO and the "fast track" legislation. Pushing agreements through a lame-duck Congress? He should have argued more for the agreement and presented it when Congress came back to session. As I wrote in a column for The Boston Herald at the time, "[and] who knows how many senators he bribed to vote for this One Worlder legislation." Ah, those heady days of NAFTA and GATT. Still opposed to GATT, but I've lightened up with regard to NAFTA ...
Christopher Rose - the USA is juvenile. As Dave said, you need to work on your presentation. That was just another way of quoting Johnny Depp who said, and I'm paraphrasing, that the US is a hyperactive, eager but dumb puppy-dog.
208 - Andy Marsh
MEM - were you watching that thing on TV last night too? I saw something on TV last night...can't remember what channel, but they were talking about all the anti-American things that people like Depp and Maines have done...I turned it off.
209 - gonzo marx
waitafuckingminnit here Andy...
"unAmerican"?????
i call bullshit!
Maines stating on stage that she was ashamed to have come from the same state as Bush is NOT unAmerican, it is an Opinion...which, blonde tho she may be, she is well fucking allowed to have
tell me honestly...is that kind of statement, or even Depp's likening the U.S. to a big , eager puppy...unAmerican,or an expression of their Free Speech?
now, which to you is MORE in th espirit of being unAmerican....stating your displeasure with an Administration and it's Policies, or claiming that over one third of the population has a mental disorder/disease?
see Savage, Coulter and the like for that...
now, one could Argue that the two are the same, but let me point out that one pair are Entertainers, and the other pair pass themselves off as Editorialists who are influential in GOP politics
Andy,yer like a brother, you know that...but here you are just way fucking wrong
as i have spewed all over the Thread continuously..do NOT confuse or conflate dissent with an Administration and shit you want to call "unAmerican"
every CEO that closes a facility in the states and offshores jobs away from american Labor is 10000 times MORE unAmerican than either of the silly entertainers you are talking about, for having their Opinions...stating such IS fucking American
try not confusing the two
pissing me off, i tell ya...
Excelsior?
210 - MCH
"You know, I've never read that RJ post...I know it's an RJ post because I've read comments on here slamming him for it before..."
- Andy, #147
"Like I said...I never read it...I only know it from the comments...and I promise you...if I read something on here I don't agree with no matter what side it comes from I'll make a comment!"
- Andy, #150
"...Of course, to listen to giant thalidomide baby Max Cleland tell it..."
- RJ Elliott, July 31, 2004
211 - Andy Marsh
I was just quoting what they called it on TV!
Step off Missy!
212 - Andy Marsh
The only problem I have with what Maines did was where she did it...
...and I like puppies...so...that's not a slam!
213 - Andy Marsh
I wasn't even a part of BC in July of '04 MCH. That might explain why I never read it...
I didn't start commenting on here until around September of October of '04...and started my blog, if that's what you wanna call it, shortly thereafter...
214 - Andy Marsh
and no more coffee for you gonzo!
215 - gonzo marx
bah..not a single drop of coffee fer me today...
am home, having stood up all night, and now about to go into 1000mg of vicodin so i can sit and perhaps nap for an hour or two...
so, pardon any unusual quantity of vitriol...i was aghast as the whole "unamerican" thing, and think more highly of you Andy...
no worries
Excelsior?
216 - Andy Marsh
I've never begrudged Depp for his statements...like I said, I like puppies! Those were the only two I saw before I changed the channel...then my thumb got tired from all the "surfing" I was doing...so I went for a bike ride...
1000mg vicodin?!??! Damn, best I ever get is 750!
Hope you feel better gonzo!
217 - Nancy
Since when is it unAmerican to despise W. Bush & hate coming from the same geographical area? W. Bush is NOT the fucking flag: he's a politico whore who happens to have had enough money to buy his way into the presidency. It just makes him the biggest politico whore in the US, is all. If anything, the woman should be saluted for having the taste to be appalled to have to claim the same area as 'home' with that boorish faux-cowboy piece of lawless chickenshit.
218 - Andy Marsh
to bad she didn't have the guts to say it in this country...then I'd have a lot less heart burn over it...it's easy to slam the administration or a political party when you're around "friends"...wonder what might have happened had she said what she said at a concert in Texas instead of a concert in Britain or France???
219 - The Fifth Dentist
What drivel. Manning, did you really once write for the Boston Herald? What a birdcage liner that newspaper must be. In your opinion we should "stop thinking about Haditha" and muster into a self-congratulatory nationwide circle jerk? If you think that critical self-analysis is counter-productive then you've either never read the letters of Lincoln, Washington, and Madison or you've failed to understand them. We are a great country in large part because we have ideals that we take seriously and that we're continuously checking ourselves against. Your utopia is the unquestioning fascistic flagwaving America that you find only in the heads of twelve year olds from Orange County. Oh and the "left" believes that America "asked for 9/11." Bullshit. If you're talking about me, the "left" wants to get the motherfuckers who actually did 9/11. It seemed like we started going down that road in Afghanistan when we got diverted into this pointless clusterfuck in Iraq. I'm proud of America. I'm proud of our deals and some of the things we've done. But we've also done plenty of bad, misguided, ignorant and incompetent shit that we need to start correcting as soon as possible. Nitwit columns such as this one aren't helping.
220 - mschannon
It occurs to me that I read somewhere, sometime in the past (I try to read in the future but it's very hard), something about someone--I forget who--but the jist of it was that if it wasn't for vitriolic, hysterical, personal attacks, most people would have nothing to say at all.
Sigh...
In Gonzo's Vicodin Veritas (and you don't even share!)
221 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Hey dentist,
The date on your sweetheart of a comment is 11 July. The point of Mr. Manning's article is that for one day, a day that passed a week ago, one should suspend all the criticism and analyses and be grateful for the joy of being where you are.
Even I, who left America for browner pastures tht will be greener one day, can comprehend that...
The Fourth is long past. You can go back to getting rid of all the incompetent shit you guys do - like propping up your pathetic puppets in Jerusalem.
222 - gonzo marx
Ruvy sez...
*The point of Mr. Manning's article is that for one day, a day that passed a week ago, one should suspend all the criticism and analyses and be grateful for the joy of being where you are.*
a fallacy whe M.E.M. start off with things like...
*To all members of the Angry Left:
Today is Independence Day. Let me just remind you what that is, since you have probably blocked it out and deny all knowledge of it.*
hardly a reconcilliary tone...
or how about...
*Stop thinking about Haditha and how much you "support the troops" yet are willing to believe every negative piece of news you hear about them, judging them guilty before proven innocent. Stop thinking about Guatanamo Bay and how you would love to set every poor terrorist currently locked up there free to walk the streets and kill Americans. Cease thinking about 9/11 and how America asked for it and deserved it.*
again, insulting anyone who has any kind of dissent and making that kind of person out to be in collusion with terrorists..."how you would love to set every poor terrorist currently locked up there free to walk the streets and kill Americans."...just to emphasise i put it up there again...
and to conclude...
*Cease thinking about 9/11 and how America asked for it and deserved it. *
my whole take on this rancid piece fo vitriol was NOT an offer at reconcilliation and peaceful co-existance for a Day
rather, it was just another hate filled, factually challenged, sterotyping, broad brush attack meant as red meat to the lockstep "GOP" types...in the guise of suggesting peace, the Poster instead attempts to piss in people's faces...
favorite attack fo the Rovians is to go broad, go big...demand Objectivity from their Opponents while remaining as hate filled and subjective as they can
and i, am way fucking tired of the Tactic
Excelsior?
223 - The Fifth Dentist
Good point Gonzo. The lack of a conciliatory tone here shows what what a disingenous reprehensible piece of crap this thing is.
224 - Dave Nalle
So gonzo, can we now use 'rovian' as an adjective to describe the same behavior from either party, or is it just going to remain a partisan attack term as you've been using it thus far?
Dave
225 - gonzo marx
for #224...
the term can and will be Used whenever it seems fit...
for the Dems..i tend to go with a "carville" for the down and dirty...or a "brasil" or a "shrum" for complete fuck-ups where a race is lost due to idiocy
out of them all a "carville" may be a pit-bull like digging in and fighting back reaction...there is a huge difference between the magnitude of that and a "rovian" tactic for the most part...
knowing Karl's history, and track record...i do place him up there at the top of all time Manipulators in the arena politic...using his name as an adjective is nto meant as any kind of slam at the GOP (save that they at times appear slavishly devoted to followinr their Orders), as it is a personal affront and attack on an Individual (Rove) and what he has orchestrated and gotten away with...
so "rovian" is non-partisan...but it IS about the worst insult i can come up with...when i use it, be caertain it is not being used as any kind of approval, and know it will signify something i consider poorly...
hope that helps, and do note that i am being VERY fucking specific here, as opposed to the typical broad brush shit that most partisans utilize the most
if you need further explanation, merely Ask
Excelsior?