The Ashley Todd hoax is not a scandal and it is not an outrage. It's a sad and pathetic commentary on our political degeneracy.
The increasingly ugly and angry tone of the presidential campaign began to take on new substance this week with the emergence of the story of McCain campaign worker Ashley Todd, who claimed that she had been attacked and brutalized by an Obama supporter in Pittsburgh.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - Lisa Solod Warren
Re #69, Baritone, excellent.
That's right, Clav. Just sit and soak the selfishly rich, and get whatever you can out of them.
Love, Pollyanna.
77 - Franco
#63 " Dr Dreadful
So Doc, because you say......you would probably see very little to convince you that any one person in the justice system was acting out of racial prejudice, and yet the black guy is on his way to the slammer while the white guy is out on probation.
The effects are very subtle, but cumulatively they're obvious.
Are you saying it is cumulative based purely on racism and nothing else? That is how your words apear to me. If this is what you are truly saying, then please confirm it for me.
Or offer up whatever other contributing factors you think my also play and decidedly active role in the heavier black incarceration rate.
78 - Lisa Solod Warren
Dave, IF the government had done its job properly, we might not be quite in this mess. But the free market capitalists would not have it. So, let's get this fixed and then see what happens. Right now, unfortunately, we have to fix this godawful mess the Republicans (and government in general) got us in to) and our little experiment in free markets without regulation got us into. WHAT are Americans so afraid of in a new vision? Yikes. Fear of fear itself????? THAT is what the Repubs are doing by these awful robo calls and hate mongering.
79 - Dr Dreadful
Are you saying it is cumulative based purely on racism and nothing else?
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. That would be as absurd as the claim that there is no institutionalized racism.
On a micro scale, I don't see how you would verify it other than to take a white individual and a black individual charged with the same crime and who have a comparable criminal history, economic status, social background, education, personality type and so forth, put them both through the criminal justice system and see what happens.
On a macro scale, the numbers speak for themselves - and the additional factors you asked for, and which I mentioned, are part of the institutionalized racism I'm talking about.
Institutions, remember, are impersonal, and you've got to remember that there isn't necessarily going to be any conscious malice involved. That's what makes the notion so hard for some people to get their heads around.
80 - Franco
#23 " Lisa Solod Warren
Franco, You are scary.
Be vewwy quiet and you can hear the footsteps.
81 - Franco
#63 " Lisa Solod Warren
"Like the failures of our form of capitalism. We need to be able to change WITHOUT PANICKING and yelling SOcialism and Communism at every new and thoughtful idea."
If the thought or the idea to be suggested to be implemented is communistic/socialistic, then you should not have to worry and neither should anyone else, because then we know what they are and then everyone can say ya or na.
The problem with your statement is it says neither and identifies nothing with relationship to those 2 “isms” except panic. The only “ism” you made an attempt to clarify is capitalism in it’s failures and yet you yourself fail to make any specific reference to them. It is not a balanced argument of any of the isms.
Maybe you would like to be more specific instead of “feel good” casting your fate to the winds of change with one of the most shallowest statements I have seen in a long time when you say……..Lighten up. Be open to something different. The same old same old is not working.
The utter shallowness of your assertion is what is truly scary.
Fixing what is not working in capitalism is where or minds and energies should be focused to make it better for all, not scrapping it ror or injecting it with other "isms". Finding and agreeing on these problems has to be done first, then we can move forward, and it is going to have to involve the businesses community to do it.
Everyone talks about the big corporations being evil. Many are for many reasons and those reasons are not all the same. We need to specify what needs to be rained in and what needs to be let out.
But what critics of captitalism fail to take into account makes there aruments shallow from the get go. That is, 95% of business in American are small business and they employ over 80% of Americans. And just one of those American employees or any group of them can decide to come together and start a business of their own, the law is there to do just that. So this concept of slave labor by capitalism is bullshit.
Fact: Most people do not want the responsibilities and risks that is demanded in starting and running a small business. Long after the employees are gone and having dinner, beer or wine, being with the family, friends or going to night school, what ever, the owner of the business they work for is still at work finishing his 14 hour day. Who is the real slave?
And don’t try and tell me I don’t know what I’m taking about. I am running two businesses right now, One in Los Angeles I started 11 years, and the other I started up in Chile 7 years ago which is an affiliate of the Los Angeles company.
Capitalism is both (1) a proven systems for bettering ones life and the lives of those involved in it. (2) the greatest tax revenue sources over any other system ever devised.
For you to say.......Lighten up. Be open to something different. The same old same old is not working.......reveals such an absences of the basics that it is the thing that is truly scary.
"Right on, Dr. D. But people just don't want to see that. They call it whining and victimhood. When it is just the growing pains of democracy.
Bullshit!
People of color from all over the world are clamoring to get into it in the US and most of them are the poor from around the world. If you can’t make it here, your can’t make it anywhere, and that goes for every color of us.
But I want to know way all the poor of color that have come to the US ever since the 70’s (Latinos and Asians) have all made out better at bettering their lives and the black Americans already here got passed up by them. (And these new immigrants didn’t even speak English when they get here).
Those are some hard facts that if not positively addressed are only going to continue. If the blacks need the extra help over other people of color, what is the reason for that? And don’t call me racist because I am not, I have worked in the black and Asians comminutes of South Central and other parts Los Angeles and I am immersed in Latin society here in Chile as well, and mostly with the poor. So I am asking an honest question about blacks in America.
82 - Lisa Solod Warren
Franco as Elmer Fudd? Is that your Halloween costume? Priceless.
83 - Franco
#79 " Dr Dreadful
On a macro scale, the numbers speak for themselves - and the additional factors you asked for, and which I mentioned, are part of the institutionalized racism I'm talking about.
OK, with respeck to all other factors you mentioned, you’re saying we don’t know what part, or percentage of incarceration of blacks is solely based on racism. Do I understand you correctly?
84 - Dave Nalle
Dave, IF the government had done its job properly, we might not be quite in this mess. But the free market capitalists would not have it.
The 'free market capitalists' aren't the ones who got us where we are. They weren't invited to the table when big business and government began screwing things up.
So, let's get this fixed and then see what happens. Right now, unfortunately, we have to fix this godawful mess the Republicans (and government in general) got us in to)
Well, mostly the democrats, actually. If you recall the facts of ths situation, a vocal minority of republicans has been opposing the way things were going all along.
and our little experiment in free markets without regulation got us into. WHAT are Americans so afraid of in a new vision? Yikes. Fear of fear itself????? THAT is what the Repubs are doing by these awful robo calls and hate mongering.
The left has been hate mongering against Bush for almost 8 years and Republicans have had to put up with it. And the hatemongering has been more vile than anything McCain and Palin have said.
Dave
85 - Dr Dreadful
I don't know what you're trying to lead me into saying, Franco, but of course we can't based on the DoJ stats alone. It would be interesting to see if anyone has analyzed the figures statistically, so as to take into account somehow those other factors. I'll do some research on that if I have time. Maybe you could too.
86 - Lisa Solod Warren
Dave, Bush took a country that was running reasonably well, took goodwill after 9-11, took a war that was probnably winnable in Afghanistan, took away rights after rights, screwed up in Iraq, and you don't expect people to be angry? Gimme a break. That's democracy. To protest a government that has done wrong and evil things. Hatemongering my ass. Bush has had 8 years to mess things up and he has done an excellent job of it. We are not happy, and the country wishes to do something about it. SO they are. At least we haven't staged a coup.
87 - bliffle
#50 Cannonshop
#42 Les, Bailouts are NOT a function of a Capitalist system,
Of course they are. Capitalism simply is based on all power being in the hands of the owners of capital. Everything is permitted.
Perhaps you, like many self-styled capitalists, believe in some sort of prettified 'capitalism' in which there are inhibiting rules and some semblance of fair play. Perhaps some notion of 'entrepeneurship'. A real capitalist crushes entrepeneurship whenever he sees it rear it's ugly head.
Capitalism simply says that all power rests with the owners of capital, like property, machinery, slaves, etc.
Don't confuse your foggy dreamy notions with capitalism.
88 - bliffle
Bush haters? This is an argument that NRO and their obedient echoes, like Dave, have been pushing for several years now. I think the idea is to convince people that opposition to Bush is based on pure unreasoning hatred of Bush rather than on any rational response to his policies and deeds. After all, if it's just unreasoning hatred then opposition can be belittled and disregarded.
Sometimes Bush opposition is belittled as "Bush Derangement Syndrome", as if it were a psychological malady.
89 - Les Slater
Clavos,
I’ve been thinking of writing a response to Franco’s #81 which I think is quite reasonable on the whole. One of the things that came up in my thinking was the issue of trickledown economics.
I used to make a considerable amount of money. Way back in ’87 I had a salary of $75K, enough to afford a nice house in a good neighborhood of a fairly wealthy community. $266K (1987) house which I put 50% down.
The reason I address this to you is because during the years I had a pretty good income I considered buying a nice boat. I did a lot of research and looking and found a used one worth looking at floating on Bras d Or Lake on Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia. I flew to Halifax, rented a car and drove to where the boat was moored. It was a 44’ wooden Heisler motor/yacht/cruiser. It was quite nice and actually put money down for a deposit.
The broker offered to introduce me to the owner of the boatyard that built it. The boatyard was Clarence R. Heisler and Son Limited, located on Gifford Island in Mahone Bay, Nova Scotia. At the appointed time and date a boat was sent to pick me up on the mainland and get me to the boatbuilding site on Gifford Island. There I was greeted by Cecil Heisler, the president and third generation of the boatbuilding family.
I got a tour of the manufacturing facility of the yard. I did not see a whole lot of high tech. I’m sure there was some, but it was emphasized by Cecil that it was mostly craftsmanship that went into the production of the boats. He said these were no cookie cutter cousins of Tupperware. The boats there were now upward of a million bucks. He pointed out that ‘my’ boat was custom built for a very wealthy customer.
At the same time I was there, there were two young couples on the deck of a Heisler sail craft anchored just off shore from the boatyard. I was informed they were German and that they, and a crew, now on the mainland, had sailed from Europe for some refitting. No details or cost were mentioned.
It now occurs to me that those million plus buck purchases are largely going to a pre-capitalist mode of production. Probably even the electronics are not the usual Raymarine ® mass produced items, and if they are, are a relatively small part of that million plus. Functionally, the purchaser is not getting much more than those cookie cutter cousins of Tupperware.
But where does that money go? Of course some has to go to the local economy. Some, and a not insignificant portion, go to purchasing products from developing world economies.
I’ll go more into this if I get around to a more comprehensive response to Franco’s #81.
Les
90 - Lisa Solod Warren
Franco, Obama doesn't want to squelch small businesses. My father owned one, I understand how great they can be and how they can support a family, so neither do I. But what has happened in this country is that BIG Business had made it nearly impossible for small businesses to thrive..... the small businesses are the ones that are suffering right now and NO ONE is offering them any bailouts, are they? Is the government doing anything to help them? Why isn't some of the 700 billion plus going to stop the closing of wonderful small businesses all over American that you see every night on the news?
And Les, I am deeply impressed by the fact that you could even consider buying a boat like the one which you described on that salary. DO tell more.:)
91 - Dave Nalle
I had a boat in the 1980s. Thankfully I was able to get rid of it before it sailed me into the poor house. I do miss it sometimes.
As for Bush Derangement Syndrome, the problem is that it's not directed at his policies, it's directed at him personally. And it started well before things went bad in Iraq and Afghanistan. It started virtually from the moment he was elected.
It originates not in anything Bush did, but in revenge from those who feel that Clinton was maltreated by Republicans in the Congress who have been out for revenge since the impeachment and as the Republican president Bush became their target through no fault of his own. Admittedly he provided them with ammunition, but the hate was there first.
Dave
92 - Cindy D
RE #87
bliffle,
That is the most eloquent description of capitalism I have yet seen.
Socialism? No, bailouts are typical: Government intervention has lots of precedent, and free markets will return
When we bail-out the wealthiest in our nation there is no great outcry of "socialism". "Socialism" for the rich has never met with any real resistance from capitalists. They have always turned a blind eye to...no, make that have always supported and justified "socialism" for the wealthy (via corporate incentives and reductions of capital gains taxes). They have always decried social programs or decreasing the burden on the drowning middle class and god forbid those "non-productive" lowlifes that slave for minimum wage.
Lowering taxes on the middle class and poor--THAT is "socialism".
...McCain at one time opposed the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. “I cannot in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us, at the expense of middle-class Americans,” he said in 2001.
Now he wants to make those tax cuts permanent " and even expand them. But even more ironic, McCain calls Obama a socialist a week after Republican President George W. Bush has taken perhaps as much as $1 trillion in American taxpayer money and partially nationalized most major American banks. Meanwhile, Sarah Palin calls Obama a socialist while being governor of a state that expropriates huge chunks of private oil company profits and then regularly doles out generous sums to every citizen of Alaska. “My friends” (to steal a phrase) that’s a lot like socialism....I love the total contradictions and muddled logic of those who denounce “socialism” for the working/middle classes but embrace it when it comes to huge government bailouts for really rich people and companies.
Capitalism requires a financially strong middle-class. The capitalists seem to have forgotten this. Middle-class has no more money? No problem, give them more credit!
We are a very stupid people..led around by the nose with words we don't even understand.
"Capitalism simply is based on all power being in the hands of the owners of capital. Everything is permitted....Don't confuse your foggy dreamy notions with capitalism." (bliffle)
Quote from here.
93 - Jet
I think as a peace offering, we should all send Bush a box of pretzels as a parting gift.
94 - Clavos
Les,
Please do continue at your convenience, I'm eager to see where your narrative will go.
Meanwhile, here's a 1947 45 ft. Tri-cabin Heisler for sale here in FL.
Not trying to sell it to you, it would be unseemly for a Marxist-Leninist Workers Party organizer to own such a frivolous toy, but since you have the good taste to know what a Heisler is, I thought you'd enjoy seeing this one.
I sell high-end Clorox bottles for the most part; increasingly, we (my partner and I) are finding very well-heeled clients, ironically enough, in the former Soviet republics. In the past two years, we have shipped yachts to Croatia, Slovenia, and of course, Russia. Market demand for boats priced above $1M is strong in those countries, though yachts above $2-3M are selling well everywhere, including the USA.
Looking forward to the rest of our discussion, Les!
95 - Les Slater
Lisa,
“I am deeply impressed by the fact that you could even consider buying a boat like the one which you described on that salary.”
I was not considering buying one of those million dollar wooden sailboats. I could afford the $60K or so that the used motor yacht was going for. Note that I put 50% down on a $266K house. I was flush with over $100K profit from the sale of my previous home. I was fortunate enough to get that eight years earlier with my new employer paying the 20% down as an enticement to accept me coming to work for him. That employer also offered generous profit sharing bonuses. I had some serious cash.
Part of the reason for my #89, besides making an economic point, was to remind some who think they’re experts on capitalism (wasn’t referring to you Clavos), that I actually worked many years in industry, often at fairly high levels, and did have to make executive decisions. My understanding is not just theoretical; I’ve been there.
Les
96 - Cindy D
John McCain: "I am not George Bush." I can understand why people think I'm not different than President Bush. The fact is that I have agreed with President Bush most of the time. The fact is I am different.
97 - Dave Nalle
Cindy, when the things which he disagrees with Bush on are the major, controversial issues then a few disagreements can mean the world of difference, as you really should be smart enough to know, even if you choose to take the partisan position instead.
And Les, working as a cog in the vast machine of an industrial bureaucracy is nice, but it really doesn't give you a balanced, grounds-eye view of capitalism. For that you need to work for or own one of the small companies which make up the bulk of our employers and revenue generators and see first hand how business works. In the kind of job you had you're too isolated from the day to day life or death decisions of the small capitalist.
Dave
98 - Cindy D
Les said he had to make executive decisions Dave. I think we can take his word that those decisions provided him with direct experience.
99 - Cindy D
dave,
You mean major controversial issues like the Bush tax cuts?
100 - Les Slater
Dave,
“In the kind of job you had you're too isolated from the day to day life or death decisions of the small capitalist.”
In the case of the small capitalist, up to $150 million per year, I was very close to the top, and did participate in daily decisions of the companies. There are rarely daily life and death decisions to be made. However, I was involved in the removal, at my instigation, of a president from his office. At another company I had a marketing argument with the president. He won the argument but when I proved to be correct, he was shown the door. At yet another company it was my recommendation that the company fold operations that convinced management to do just that.
At bigger companies, which include Digital Equipment Corporation and General Electric, I was instrumental in convincing these companies to start multi-million dollar projects or to cancel them. I have also been instrumental in some significant reorganizations (read I insisted that what was could not continue). I have come head to head with big corporation management and got THEM to back down from their stupidities.
I have never been afraid of being fired, and have been a few times, The higher up I’ve been the less tolerance I’ve had for incompetence, which I found aplenty. I usually find allies because my frankness has often found resonance, not only with those at my level or below, but sometimes with upper management.
One time when I was just the engineer that designed a project, and all the sign-offs were relegated to management above me, and the decided to ship, I, outside any formal authority, called for a halt in shipment, because production test software was not fully tested. I got a lot of dirty looks, but the rest of the management got called on the carpet, big time.
Presidents of small companies, up to the $150 million gross sales, knowing I was a communist, confided in me with their concerns about their business and the state of the market and where things were going.
I still keep in touch with the president that I got removed from his position and another whose last act as my boss, fired me. Both have given the best of recommendations for later employment.
Les
101 - bliffle
Dave attempts evasion again:
"As for Bush Derangement Syndrome, the problem is that it's not directed at his policies, it's directed at him personally. And it started well before things went bad in Iraq and Afghanistan. It started virtually from the moment he was elected."
Virtually? What does THAT mean?
The expression "Bush Derangement Syndrome" was created by the right (NRO, I believe) and was intended to belittle ANYONE who took issue with Bush policies.
102 - Les Slater
bliffle,
Dave is at least partially correct. Bush is not to blame for much of what he gets blamed for. Primarily, he is just carrying on from where Clinton left off. Much of the hysteria about Bush is just that, hysteria. It's not just Bush, it's bipartisan.
Dave is wrong however by saying things went bad in Iraq and leaving it at that. The U.S. has made much progress (from its point of view) in Iraq.
Les
103 - Sherry
Jeez Dr Dreadful I was just clarifying a misunderstanding. But I'm happy to give the discussion a rest.
104 - Buck
Obama really sucks and will ruin the U.S. I am depressed about the state of the country and it is going to get worse I fear.
105 - Cindy D
Dave,
Just for you, I have taken the pains to quote John McCain words, instead of paraphrasing him.
John McCain, June 2005, on Meet the Press:
"The fact is that I'm different. But, the fact is that I have agreed with President Bush far more than I've disagreed. And on the transcendent issues, the most important issues of our day, I have been totally in agreement and support of President Bush [my partisan emphasis].So, I strongly disagree with any assertion that I've been more at odds with the President of the United States more than I've been in agreement with him. [March 5, 2008] Well, I am very honored and humbled to have the opportunity to receive the endorsement of the President of the United States....I intend to have as much campaigning events and as much as in sort of keeping with the President's heavy schedule...[like while he's not on vacation, my partisan comment].
106 - Cindy D
McCain will say or do anything to get elected. Period. If having Bush on his campaign agenda would help, he'd do it. If railing against Bush would help, he'd do it. If choosing an ignorant incompetent VP would help, he'd do it.
107 - Cindy D
Buck,
Never fear, you are obviously rich. It never gets really bad for you. Not by McCain and not by Obama.
108 - Clavos
McCain will say or do anything to get elected. Period.
C'mon, Cindy. So has every other pol (of any nationality) since the dawn of time, including The Messiah (my partisan title, coined by Louis Farrakhan, a prominent American leader)
109 - Cindy D
Clav,
So, lay out the evidence. we are relying on that generalization we know to be true. But, it means so much more with examples.
110 - moon
Cindy,
You had the temerity to ask for EVIDENCE from the Carl Hiaasen Villain?
Maybe he can tell you about the Double Whammy before he tells you to jump in the lake and Skin Dive.
And maybe he'll tell you you're a Basket Case and continue whining like Sick Puppy.
But he won't post anything that even remotely could be termed EVIDENCE. He don't need no stinkin' evidence.
Until I visited this site and the Miami Herald site I thought Hiaasen wrote fiction.
Since then he has risen mightily in my estimation as a skilled documentalist.
Funny too.
111 - Clavos
OK Cindy,
You don't have to believe that all pols are liars if you don't want to; I'm not about to spend the rest of my life researching lies told by every pol who ever lived.
My Dad taught me many years ago to watch for their lips to start moving in order to know when they're lying. As in most things, the old guy was right.
But, If you DON'T believe that lying is their stock in trade, I have some very nice land in western Broward county to sell you, for when you move down here.
112 - Cindy D
I was just discussing the replacement of a solar light ($85 at Home Despot [no spelling error] 3 months ago) with my repair person. This was going to save me money on electricity. Gee, a light that goes on for max 60 seconds twice a day for three months $85. Now it doesn't work. Not that this is unfamiliar to anyone reading this.
The person who repairs my things that need repairs assured me that he is having a lot of problems with the new PVC Chinese pipes (which he installed for me 6 months ago. They're thinner, much too thin to tighten adequately. They keep leaking. Nothing he does helps, but temporarily.
I have a tape player circa 1980 Radio Shack...it still works but is kinda cruddy looking. It is still my best choice after new replacements from Radio Shack over the last 15 years. All of which failed within months. I don't buy from Radio Shack anymore.
I now need to figure into my budget a new coffee pot every 5-6 months, new pipes, new cost saving solar lights, new tape players, etc. etc.
Thank god my vacuum cleaner, TV, etc are still old enough to work. I can't wait until I get to replace them every 5-6 months.
None of my pets died from the Chinese fuck up with pet food. I still have my kidneys cuz I didn't eat the other Chinese crap that was laden with dangerous (BUT CHEAP!) additives. My baby isn't at risk from Chinese cost savings, cuz I don't have a baby. The Chinese are showing us what we look like with limited regulation.
When people no longer have money to spend--the tenet of Capitalism that says those who make the best product will get the business the rest will fail--doesn't exist. Capitalism now means the hell with quality. People will buy what is cheap. They can't afford to buy anything else.
I am moving toward a smaller (wholly owned, good fortune that is mine) home with less reliance on electricity, etc. Hopefully, there are someone other than the Chinese who make solar "cost saving" lights.
113 - Cindy D
That reminds me of my activist days. When companies whose pacifiers failed U.S. approval because they were dangerous simply exported them where those sorts of laws didn't exist.
Do they still do that? Or is that the job of the Chinese now?
114 - Cindy D
OK Cindy, You don't have to believe that all pols are liars if you don't want to; I'm not about to spend the rest of my life researching lies told by every pol who ever lived.
Why, of course I believe you Clav! Who doesn't know all pols are liars? I just asked for evidence (not of every one that ever lived) but in this single case where you are implying that what I said for McCain goes for Obama. So, show me how Obama lies "just like" McCain does. No need to search back in ancient history.
115 - Cindy D
moon,
I read one Carl Hiaasen novel, Skinny Dip, it was about 6 months ago. Any recommendations?
116 - moon
Cindy,
I really wanted to see the Carl Hiaasen Swamprat post HIS English translation of one of Cicero's Orations against Cataline as EVIDENCE.
That's be the day (My favorite John Wayne line).
Meanwhile, it's time for dessert.
117 - pablo
Cindy,
I will be happy to show you when Obama lied. On 3/31/08 Obama was asked if he was a member of the CFR, he claimed that he did not know if he was a member. That in itself is an outright lie, of course he knows that he is a member, as it is the most powerful prestigious political group in the country. The he went on cutely to say how their is no secret handshake for their members. Not only do you have to be vetted, and invited to join this globalist group, the dues are 500 bucks per year.
118 - moon
Skinny Dip, if I remember correctly, did have a sleazy character with a boat who tried to kill his wife by pushing her overboard.
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
I have not read them all. The first one I read in Spanish translation--which was still funny enough that I went looking for others at the Seattle Goodwill on one of my trips north. It was called Lucky You.
It's my experience that the earlier Hiaasens are funnier, as in the most recent ones he seems to have pretensions or aspirations or conjugations or obfuscations in regard to becoming a "better" (more serious) writer. My personal favorite, for sheer laughs, is Native Tongue.
But all of them are populated by folks like [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] the really genetically damaged types like the folks who post on the Miami Herald site.
According to Hiaasen, the generic name for them is crackers.
119 - Cindy D
Pablo,
I am talking about lies as far as his platform, you know what he represents to his voting public are his stances on issues.
I am not talking about Ron Paul supporter crackpot conspiracy claims.
If that isn't what you are claiming then stop making allegations (what they even mean I have no clue). and present some evidence. Crackpot conspiracy sites don't count as evidence.
120 - Buck
Cindy - I am "obviously rich"? That is so not worth responding to, I'm not sure why I am bothering.
Obama IS a liar and will say ANYthing to get elected. He is a charismatic speaker with a likable persona. He is a democrat during the worst possible time (public opinion-wise) to be a republican. The anti-republican sentiment has reached fever pitch and much of it is completely unfounded. Obama will be a FINANCIAL DISASTER for the United States. That will adverse effect you and everyone else, rich or not.
Down with socialism!
121 - Cindy D
Thanks Buck,
Your reply allows me to rest my case without actually responding to your comments.
122 - pablo
Cindy,
I presented you evidence dear, however your a bit slow on the uptake. The CFR is not a conspiracy, but in fact a group, you can access their website here sweetie. cfr.org
You just go on using your derogatory terminology, as if I care, I don't. I responded to a question, and answered it. Obama is a liar. Case closed.
123 - pablo
Oh and Cindy,
If you would like several more examples of Obama being a liar here are two prime examples.
He said that he would not take financing from corporations. He does
He said that he would vote against the illegal wiretapping of American citizens, he voted for it.
You just go ahead and live in your little dream world Cindy. That Obama is the answer, and that your vote counts. He is not, and your vote means diddlysquat. You live in the matrix honey, and you have no say, nor do I who is the next President.
If I am a crackpot, you dear, are a delusional, naive, uninformed, silly example of someone who thinks that they are politically informed.
124 - Cindy D
Sorry Pablo hunny bunch, the CFR fails to note all their horrid evil deeds on the front page of their site, smoochy kins...
Obama, he lied about being a boy scout? So far as I know your comment is the equivalent snuggle uggums.
125 - Al Barger
You know, we wouldn't have all this paranoia and name calling and hate if them damn stupid Democrat poopie heads would just quit lying and vote for Palin-McCain like they know they should.