America is now at the crossroads of change and deeply divided over the type of change to live with.
Last November, the country elected Barack Obama, the first African American President of the United States. His election victory was won mainly on his promise of change, and the nation was more than ready for that change, particularly after eight years of George W. Bush and all that it meant: incompetence at the highest levels of government, unprecedented government spending which wiped out the budget surplus left over from the Clinton administration, an imperial presidency (or vice presidency), assaults on civil liberty and wanton abuse of power. The collective euphoria, both here at home and abroad, could only have been the result of the relief felt by those who saw the end of the Bush presidency as the beginning of a new era which would usher in that change in all its ramifications. Mostly, the change would reassert America’s ideals and its standing as the bastion of freedom and democracy. The expectations of Americans and the rest of the world for the Obama era were as high as the euphoria over his electoral victory.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Dan
"The more mortgages the mortgage brokers sold, the more the banks made and the more credit derivatives the shysters and fast talkers on Wall St were able to sell, which created ever more demand for more mortgages."---STM
The demand for mortgages was created by the lax lending standards Fannie/Freddie were mandated to by liberal Govtards. Credit derivatives are just a way for banks to manage their risk without losing all upside. People don't have to buy them, if they don't want. It's a risk. If there was some sneakiness or "fast talking" going on, that wouldn't play a part in why the assets were toxic in the first place. Which was: people did not repay loans that banks would not have made to them if it weren't for gov't intervention.
"In other words, you bank is not allowed to grow/expand/merge unless you give enough loans to low/moderate income people (who are less likely to be able to pay you back)."---Doug Hunter
Also, people like Janet Reno, Obama, and ACORN, were actively pursuing and litigating against mortgage lenders that did not make risky loans because the people they were turning down were not white. This amounts to yet more government regulation.
This redlining hoax is one of the more transparant manipulations of liberal race hustlers that I know of. If lenders were actually racist they should love to make money from people they don't like.
Now, after Fannie/Freddie under writ and mandated they loan to them, with the forseeable result, the lenders are now sued for predatory lending.
"I'm not claiming this is the sole cause of the crisis but it certainly contributed."---Doug H.
It was the sole cause of the ignition point of the financial crisis. Government sponsered easy money loans meant increased demand, increased demand led to artificial inflation of the housing market. And that puts inflationary pressure on commercial, condo's, everything.
When people stopped paying, the market deflated. It's true that derivatives were overextended. That didn't help. But when those who never would have gotten loans walked away from houses inflated 3 or 4 times there realistic value, the cascade was on.
All because of government intervention in the free market.
An interesting note on this recession: Usually, well, always, a credit crisis, or "crunch" follows a recession. Times turn bad and people who normally would repay their loans cannot.
This time the crunch precipitated the recession. The fundamentals of the economy were fine.
27 - Arch Conservative
Now the white house is asking citizens to spy on each other and email king Barry about any acts of sedition such as asking how we would pay for universal health care.
Barack Obama is the enemy of freedom. Anyone that can't see this is a fucking idiot.
Down with the king.
28 - Dr Dreadful
Now the white house is asking citizens to spy on each other and email king Barry about any acts of sedition
Do you have a citation to back up this rather disturbing allegation, Archie?
29 - Arch Conservative
Yeah the white houses own website....[personal attack deleted]
30 - roger nowosielski
Common, Archie. He asked you a simple question.
31 - Baronius
White House link
32 - roger nowosielski
Thank you, Baronius.
33 - Dr Dreadful
Thanks, Baronius. I did look at the White House website and couldn't find it - and I don't think, going by Archie's Big Brother-esque language, that I would've.
As for Archie and his - to put it mildly - unhelpful conduct, I think it may be time he took another little vacation. I'll consult the Oracle.
34 - Baronius
The jerk was right about the White House site, though. And a lot of people are livid. I even used my birth name (which I never use online) when I complained at flag@whitehouse.gov.
35 - Dr Dreadful
Baronius, I fail to see how a request for a heads-up on ridiculous rumours (like the one where everyone over a certain age is going to be euthanized) amounts to spying on your neighbours. It's not like they're asking for names and addresses.
36 - Baronius
Dread, someone somewhere is going to be hesitant about criticizing the health care proposals, out of fear of being reported. That's fact. It doesn't matter if I think the White House will do anything with those forwarded emails. The administration made a move that will stifle debate. Any presumption of good faith is lost. This is something bigger than the health care debate, and if the administration makes moves like this they're going to be facing a backlash that even Nalle can't imagine.
37 - Dr Dreadful
Come now, Baronius. You really think that this stacks up against some of the Bush administration programs - warrantless wiretapping, for instance, or the quietly-buried Operation TIPS?
38 - Baronius
Dread, if you see someone doing something suspicious, it's your duty to report it. If someone calls overseas phone #s on a watch list, it makes sense for the government to listen in. If someone's email gets forwarded to the White House because he thought something that the administration doesn't approve of, that's a violation of our national principles.
39 - Clavos
Come now, Baronius. You really think that this stacks up against some of the Bush administration programs - warrantless wiretapping, for instance, or the quietly-buried Operation TIPS?
Biggere. Because more ominous in terms of its potential for even further divisiveness.
Ratting on each other about rumors isn't such a big deal, but it does establish a precedent and a sense of it's being OK.
Once we're all used to it, what will they ask for reports on next?
At the very least, it's beneath the dignity of the Office, but come to think of it, the dignity of the Office has never seemed to be of much concern to BHO.
40 - roger nowosielski
Right. Think of Nazi Germany when citizens regarded it their duty to report all non-conformists to the authorities.
41 - STM
Ratting - or dobbing-in, as we call it - is regarded as just about the most un-Australian thing you can do.
However, there's one area where it wouldn't bother me: I wouldn't think twice about dobbing to the feds on some lunatic I thought might want to blow the sh.t out of me or my countrymen.
The Poms used the same tactic way back to stop the IRA in the UK, and it worked up to a point: encouraging people who think they've seen something suspicious to let someone know.
If it turns out you were wrong, too bad. All's well that ends well.
And if you were right, you just stopped a London tube station getting bombed to kingdom come and 200 people got to go home to their own beds that night.
There's worth in citizens keeping their eyes and ears open.
Of course, the UK is full of nosey-parkers so there were a lot of false alarms, but it still was -and is - a worthwhile exercise.
42 - STM
Also, how come Archie doesn't like Mr Obama?
What's he ever done to Arch?
43 - STM
Doug, while there's no doubt some loans were made to fulfil ridiculous PC obligations, that's a small part of the story and certainly not the whole of the story. I think you need to do more reading on credit derivates, tranches and sub-prime.
Sub-prime and falling house prices was the spark, toxic debt was the cause. But the onus is on Wall St, not Washington.
In the years leading up to the crisis, most sub-prime loans were made through brokers desperate to meet the demand from Wall Street investors who wanted to package them up with AAA rated debts as nice little bizarre parcels of investment.
Then there were the Credit Default Swaps, which are basically investments that were almost a bet predicated on whather a third party would welsh on their debt obligations.
Clever idea that one and dreamt up by the smartest guys in the room.
To meet the demand for CDOs, mortgage brokers and banks had to keep lowering their lending criteria. If you can put your Coke-bottle anti-liberal spectacles to one side for a moment, the whole thing's pretty well documented for those who might seek to look for the truth without any political agenda.
A lot of Wall St employees who sold them have admitted they had no idea how they could work. It was, truly, like a giant corporate ponzi scheme.
Prudential regulation, BTW, which is what I was talking about and which the US now needs, does not mean regulation that urges lenders to give money to people who can't pay it back. It kind of means the opposite. It's about everyone in the finance/banking being responsible at every level. It also stops the shysters.
Those benefiting would include the US government, which is currently many trillions in debt to China, Japan and the oil-producing nations.
Do Americans understand how much US debt is owned by China?? Which is why China always gets its way.
The only way out of that is the imposition of higher US taxes. There's no other way. However, the US might start thinking about doing what it's good at: making and selling stuff, and letting the dollar fall to realistic levels that encourage exports and create a competitive environment for US goods, which can be marketed at slightly higher prices because of their quality.
Like the old Levi's ad says: "Quality never goes out of style".
That should start filling the coffers. Free-trade agreements are already in place to benefit the US around the world and the US should be looking to take advantage of them. It's the ideal time.
Start selling stuff other than scrap metal for Chinese and Japanese foundries.
Anyway, back to the debt: So every good debt parceled up in a package that was exposed to debt that couldn't be repaid became toxic too.
Which is really where the problem lies.
Don't let the corporate shysters run America. They've taken you down the gurgler.
Corporations have their place, but putting them in de facto charge and letting them do whatever they want is a mistake.
That way you are no better than an oligarchy and a faux democracy (in the modern sense, not the ancient Greek).
44 - El Bicho
"The administration made a move that will stifle debate."
Read more like it made a move to stifle bullshit, but, if lies and paranoia work for you, enjoy.
45 - Jordan Richardson
So the White House is asking people to forward emails that muddle the health care discussion to a certain web address and that's "spying" and worse than wire-tapping?
How so? It seems to me that the White House and the Obama Administration is actually utilizing modern technology properly to see where these things come from and how so much misinformation spreads. Why is this considered a danger by anyone? How is this "spying?" This is about misinformation on the web, not about tapping someone's phone and following them in a black car.
46 - Charles Euchay
It's a pity that some of us here are more interested in hurling insults at the new President instead of posting comments that encourage serious discoourse. It's beginning to sound like a verbal bar room brawl. We need to talk about healthcare plans that cover every American, how to curb corporate greed and avarice, an end to the outsourcing of jobs to foreign lands and how to bridge the wide split in race relations in America.
47 - Cannonshop
#45 No, Jordan, it's Exactly as Bad, the "Wiretapping" occurred on international calls-and the loose standards for warrants were already disgustingly loose before hand (Omnibus Crime Bill of '88 allows some pretty shady warrants in drug cases).
Notably, nobody in Congress is willing to put forth a bill to limit the Wiretapping-not even the Liberals.
THIS is something worse-see, there's a fixed limit on the number of FBI/NSA/DHS operatives who can run a Wire-Tap, Wire-Tapping requires specialized training, security clearances, and if political winds change, can result in firing or jail time.
Ratting out your neighbours for seditious speech doesn't. When government encourages this, it is, in effect, trying to shut those people up, or identify them for harassment later. You remember HUAC? Yeah, just like that.
48 - Arch Conservative
What we need to talk about Charles is how everything Obama has done so far has been an effort to give the federal government more control over people's lives and take more money from us.
49 - Charles Euchay
Arch, yes we can talk about that even though I disagree with you on that. I think this President, like every other President before him, is not going to please everyone with his decisions. But no one can rightly accuse him of lack of empathy for the concerns of ordinary Americans. The last Administration under Bush did far more to control people's lives and to squander our tax payer money. Remember the Patriot Act, the Iraq war and the boon that provided the contractors, most of whom were cronies of Bush and Cheney. The gross acts of malfeasance in the Bush/Cheney White House are just now being uncovered in addition to what we already knew. Think about that. The final cost of the Iraq invasion and occupation, in terms of dollars and human toll, will pale in comparison to what you and your ilk are pillorying Obama for over his attempt to provide affordable healthcare for you and me.
50 - Clavos
Remember the Patriot Act...
How could we forget? Obama has kept it.
It's not going to go away, either, it gives the government, as Arch said, more control over the people, which is what those who work in the government (including this and every president) hunger for most.
51 - Ruvy
All I am saying - if this is an issue, it should be the issue prior to elections.
No,Roger. Every day this phoney "citizen" stays in office in one more day you are being deprived of "legitimate constitutional government", and are being defrauded by a liar and a faker. That this doesn't bother you tells me you do not deserve the little liberty you still have, and if it brings about a dictatorship in your country (which I think it will), you will richly deserve it..
52 - roger nowosielski
The issue resurfaced prior to the election. It should have been raised then if it was deemed important enough.
53 - Bliffle
STM, #43 is right.
None of the fiscal hawks here at BC seemed to notice or care that Bush increased the National Debt by $4.5trillion. Gee, you'd think someone would have noticed.
I suppose that about $2trillion is for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, about $0.5Trillion for tax gifts to the rich, but what was the rest for? Did GWB take a cash advance on the national credit card just for pocket money?
Not one of our Fiscal responsibility neo-Republicans here on BC seems to care. BUt, boy, are they livid about a health insurance plan that may cost $1trillion. Of course a healthcare plan would only help the millions of US citizens and wouldn't have the regal cachet that goes with expensive pointless foreign wars.
54 - Ruvy
It should have been raised then if it was deemed important enough.
Roger this issue was raised long before the election and everyone tried to quash it and ignore it. Just like Watergate was in 1972. Like Watergate, this is going to grow and grow. But, as I said, Nixon rose to prove himself a giant of a man - he resigned rather than be thrown out of office by the Senate.
Obama already showed his stripes in Honduras, and would consider any effort to impeach him rebellion - and quash it as such.
For my sake, I hope this issue does not toss out Obama too early (for my purposes), and that he does not bend, but continues to pour more and more of his money (and his attention) into defending his legitimacy. His judgment will be impaired over time (as was Nixon's) and eventually, he will break. When Nixon broke, he became a depressive addicted to a bottle. I'm hoping that Obama will react differently.
But now I'm way out in speculative territory....
55 - Cindy
#50 What Clav said.
56 - Dave Nalle
Thanks, Baronius. I did look at the White House website and couldn't find it - and I don't think, going by Archie's Big Brother-esque language, that I would've.
I believe that the white house request for people to contact them and inform them of people voicing dissenting opinions was taken offline sometime yesterday, but it did exist. There's been plenty of news coverage of it.
Dave
57 - Baronius
Jordan - STM is right. Surveillance over security concerns is completely different than surveillance over policy disagreements.
Dave - I just clicked on the link, and the site is still up. That means your comment #56 is false information. I may have to report you.
Charles - I don't believe in hurling insults either. So please justify your implication of racism among the president's critics or withdraw the statement.
58 - zingzing
you guys are fucking ridiculous. i'm reporting you to the guvment for this. and you know what will happen? nuthin. and you ain't even scared that anything will happen. and the white house won't give a shit. and i ain't even gonna send the fuckin' email, because it's not worth the trouble.
but i will tap your phone. and abduct your wife. and pet your cat.
59 - Clavos
...pet your cat.
Just try it -- she'll rip you from asshole to appetite.
I raised her.
60 - Baronius
Zing, I ain't afeared that nuthin'll happen neither. But some people will be. Governments have investigated political enemies before. Our government has. I'd love to write off the WH web page as tactless misphrasing, but this is the WHITE HOUSE WEB PAGE we're talking about! I can't make a good faith assumption on this one.
Up until now, I've considered Obama to be a dope: our legitimately-elected dope, worthy of every respect. I would have disagreed with Clavos' comment about Obama disrespecting the office. This web page shook me.
61 - doug
Isn't ruvy the guy who says stay out of israel's affairs, yet can't keep his mouth shut about america? Let me guess, you don't believe the moon landing either?
62 - zingzing
clavos: "Just try it -- she'll rip you from asshole to appetite. I raised her."
i'm sure. it's a euphemism, clavos. and if you can train a cat, i'm impressed. that you raised a mean one doesn't speak to your character very well, however.
baronius: "But some people will be."
yeah, but like the birthers, etc, they're paranoid already.
"This web page shook me."
well, that's just dumb. they just want to be in touch with what the people are saying about it. they aren't going to come knocking on your door. and you know that, so stop acting like a fool.
63 - Dr Dreadful
Stan, Baronius:
There's nothing wrong with reporting suspicious activity to the police or the Feds and never was. That's just good citizenship.
But the Bush White House cynically used the overinflated threat of terrorism to get people twitching at every little thing. It led to ridiculous incidents like the kid in Arizona (IIRC) who got a visit from the sheriff's department because his Mom bought him Microsoft Flight Simulator.
Again, the White House is not asking for names and addresses. Just a bit of help so that it knows which bits of nonsense to counter.
Oh, and zing, Clav is just bullshitting. The cat owns him. I reckon she's got him quite well trained! ;-)
64 - roger nowosielski
We're not talking about terrorism, Dreadful, but political opposition. It promotes the atmosphere of suspicion - the idea of ratting on people. The White House should have sufficient resources to ascertain foul play without soliciting citizens' help. It's the kind of polarization we don't want.
65 - zingzing
yeah, that's how the tyrants take over... by BLOG POST. we must be ever vigilant. rss the whitehouse blog now! i didn't even know they had one, and now it's being used to enslave me!
66 - Dr Dreadful
Roger,
Scenario: Dude receives a chain e-mail claiming that under Obamacare, all Americans will be legally required to buy pet insurance even if they don't have pets. He forwards the e-mail to the White House.
Who is being ratted on?
67 - zingzing
the most likely scenario is that, if i were to receive such an email, i go over to that mother fucker's house and shit on his lawn, because if you fuckin foward me one more god damn chain email, i'll fuckin do much worse, you little fucking worm.
then i'd email obama and tell him what i'd done and he'd congratulate me, and we'd have a beer and talk about you.
68 - Ruvy
Isn't ruvy the guy who says stay out of israel's affairs, yet can't keep his mouth shut about america?
I'm an American citizen, Doug. I lived in the States for almost 50 years. While there are plenty of threads about America that I stay out of, simply because I do not know enough to comment intelligently anymore, I've been an activist in American politics for many years. I know both sides of many issues that get discussed here and know them well.
By contrast, most of you could not tell Jaffa from Jiffy, or Bethlehem Pennsylvania from Bethlehem Israel. Most of you haven't a clue about Israel.
Roger lived here for two years and has some understanding of what I talk about, even though the country he knew and left doesn't exist anymore. Dave Nalle, grew up in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria, and also has an understanding of what I'm talking about. You'll find that in practical terms, he agrees with what much of what I suggest for solutions here - while firmly being on what he views to be the Arab side.
69 - zingzing
"You'll find that in practical terms, [dave nalle] agrees with what much of what I suggest for solutions here - while firmly being on what he views to be the Arab side."
like nuking a few cities here and there? i don't think he's agreed with that.
and i think your last phrase should be "firmly being on what [i] view to be the arab side," which, to you, is nearly everyone.
70 - roger nowosielski
Still, Dreadful. The very fact that the White House would solicit information is disturbing enough. Aren't they confident enough they're doing the right thing?
71 - roger nowosielski
Besides, you can't keep tab on all the nuts. First, they're too many of them. And second, why would you bother if they're harmless?
72 - zingzing
"The very fact that the White House would solicit information is disturbing enough."
what a strange statement.
73 - roger nowosielski
Take it in context, zing.
74 - zingzing
ruvy: "if it brings about a dictatorship in your country (which I think it will), you will richly deserve it.."
ha. you're a nut. birther, paranoid about a dictatorship, wanting to throw nukes around the planet, hoping for the apocalypse, blathering about torah codes...
i really don't know how you survive in that mind of yours. i'd be stark raving mad by this point. which, i guess, you are a bit. but you're holding it pretty well together for someone so whacked out.
75 - zingzing
you take it in context as well, roger.