In Tangipahoa Parish here in Louisiana, the teachers and adminstrators continue to pray in school. This infuriates the ACLU who has continually taken the School Board to court to stop them from praying.…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
ACLU wants people who pray removed from society - Comments Page 4
Article comments
— go to most recent comments126 - Temple Stark
comment 113. Roaring. Goddamn funny.
127 - RealCon
Re: Comment 118 posted by bhw
Are you the one and same gracious lady who has very high academic credentials?
If so -- I will not refer to you as a morosoph -- in real life or here in never-never land -- for to do so would be ungracious…
128 - gonzo marx
and to clarify for bhw in comment #118
the only way i can possibly explain is to Quote Bill Murray from Ghostbusters
"yes your Honor, he has no dick"
{8^P~~~~~~~~~~~
nite folks
Excelsior!
129 - Randy Kirk
I'll have to check on the actual stats on Supreme court and Appeals court judges (the only ones that count.) I'm guessing that it has been a seesaw. Some of the dang Republican choices have been pretty sad in the long run, too.
No, I'm talking about a serious majority. Just once I'd like to see a conservative judge make it up out of whole cloth.
130 - RealCon
Re: Comment 123 posted by gonzo marx
me? … yes you gonzo…
nasty pills? --- yes -- an overdose..
Since you mention you were comatose and had your head amputated and tossed in a pickle jar -- you deserve credit for trying to participate here -- although it has been in an extremely marginal way…
For your brave efforts in trying to make sense in your rants -- and having suffered "unusual retardation above and beyond the call" -- you are awarded the Distinguished Badge of Liberal Gibberish -- otherwise Known as the Badge for Unintelligible and Nonsensical Talk or Writing…
And as you probably know -- this is the first time the award has been made here…
Thanks for trying so hard... and I’m sure you’ll try again…
131 - RealCon
Re: Comment 125 posted by gonzo marx
Yes -- Let's look at the last 50 years of the Supreme Court --
The Republicans were asleep while there was an onslaught of liberals going on the court… a bunch of wolves in sheep’s clothing…
The Republicans only recently woke up to the damage done by their inattention…
The combination of inattention -- and the “conversion” of supposedly conservative appointees into “liberal thinkers” is what has caused the problem that Republicans are now determined will not continue…
The makeup of the Court has little to do with control of the White House -- if the White House is not attuned to the real beliefs of those who are appointed…
That is likely to change -- much to the chagrin of liberals --
To the victor goes the spoils… The Dems will have to learn to live with that…
Sorry, gonzo…
132 - Silas Kain
You know, folks, the penis measuring contest between Conservatives and Liberals is taking attention away from issues that require our attention as a Nation. The false sense of American Pride which took over the country on September 11, 2001 is history. We're more divided now than we were at the beginning of the Civil War. We don't need to spend money on Homeland Security, folks. Our enemies are having a field day watching us implode. Wake up, America, Ronald Reagan's "City on a Hill" is crumbling and nobody is doing anything about it.
133 - RealCon
Re: Comment 132
Well said!!!
No question -- Some of these posts have drifted way off-track.
134 - Dana
gonzo,
I am currently reading the court order. I will get back to you after I have read it.
But I wanted to elaborate on my original complaint with the ACLU and their statements in this article.
Let's replace the praying teachers and administrators in this story with any other group in society who might participate in acts of civil disobedience (Homosexuals, college students, labor unions, etc.)
If the ACLU or anyone else used the words "remove from society" to describe sending them to jail, there would be an uproar.
Why? Because words not only have meanings, they have connotations. Removing someone from society IMPLIES sending them to jail for a very long time. We use the words "remove from society" when talking about sending violent criminals, such as child molestors, rapists and murderers, to jail for life not for acts of civil disobedience.
So the question for me becomes: Does the ACLU view these people the same as violent criminals?
135 - bhw
No question -- Some of these posts have drifted way off-track.
The height of irony, no?
RealCon, try debating without making ad-hominem attacks. If you can't, the offending comments will be "muzzled." [See the Official Comment Policy if you're confused.]
136 - Dave Nalle
Ah, I see RealCon is historically challenged:
>>The Republicans were asleep while there was an onslaught of liberals going on the court… a bunch of wolves in sheep’s clothing…<<
No, the Republicans were NOT asleep. Back then the Republicans had principles and believed in individual liberty and the Constitution. Remember, Earl Warren was an Eisenhower appointee and he and the many other Eisehnhower appointees on lower courts ran the judiciary throughout the 60s and 70s. They may be too liberal for you, but they were Republicans, not Democrats.
>>The Republicans only recently woke up to the damage done by their inattention…<<
Wrong. The Republicans were recently invaded by religiously-motivated Democrats in All But Name who changed parties and became the core Neocon population and are trying to divert the Republican party away from its traditional values of small government and support for business and the individual.
These people with their Democrat-style big government and religious bigotry need to be stopped at all costs.
Dave
137 - RealCon
Re: Comment 135 posted by bhw
Re: Comment 118 posted by bhw
Now… Now… isn’t this a case of the kettle calling the pot black?
The height of irony, no?
138 - bhw
RealCon, maybe you should take your own course on the difference between a question mark and a period. Hmmmmmmm?
139 - RealCon
Re: Comment 136 posted by Dave Nalle
Let’s see who is historically challenged,..
Yes the Republicans WERE asleep for 50 years…
Earl Warren was the first of the “turncoats” -- did he not surprise everyone with his decisions?
As I said before -- the “conversion” of supposedly conservative appointees into “liberal thinkers” is what has caused the problem that Republicans are now determined will not continue…
And believing in -- “individual liberty” -- does not allow the creation of new law that is not in the Constitution… regardless of how much one wants the “individual liberty”.
I can think of many ways to create more “individual liberty” out of whole cloth…. But that is not the way the process works…
If we want new “liberties” -- we can have them -- by Constitutional Amendment… that’s the way it’s supposed to work…
Yes -- we should have a conservative court now -- but we don’t…
The danger Republicans did not see coming was the “conversion” of their own appointees -- such as Souter and O’Connor.
Your claim that --“the Republicans were recently invaded by religiously-motivated Democrats in All But Name” -- shows that you have no sense of the Constitution… what REAL Republicans want is to RESTORE the Constitution… and all you want to do is make it a religious issue…
Good try…
140 - Mark Saleski
what REAL Republicans want is to RESTORE the Constitution
...followed by the "GoodWeatherAmendment"
141 - JR
Dave Nalle: These people with their Democrat-style big government and religious bigotry need to be stopped at all costs.
Hard to do if you're going to vote for them now that they're Republicans.
142 - Dave Nalle
>>Earl Warren was the first of the “turncoats” -- did he not surprise everyone with his decisions?<<
Not the real Republicans, no.
>>As I said before -- the “conversion” of supposedly conservative appointees into “liberal thinkers” is what has caused the problem that Republicans are now determined will not continue…<<
I hate to break this news to you, but the Republican party was founded as a 'liberal' party.
>>If we want new “liberties” -- we can have them -- by Constitutional Amendment… that’s the way it’s supposed to work…<<
I'd be happy to just get back the ones that are already in the Constitution which the Neocons and the other Democrats have worked so hard to take away.
>>Your claim that --“the Republicans were recently invaded by religiously-motivated Democrats in All But Name” -- shows that you have no sense of the Constitution… what REAL Republicans want is to RESTORE the Constitution… and all you want to do is make it a religious issue…<<
What does the Constitution have to do with the Neocon invasion? I'm all for a strict interpretation of the Constitution, but that doesn't mean perverting it to serve a religious agenda any more than it means perverting it to serve a socialist agenda.
Dave
143 - Eric Olsen
Earl Warren is a saint and should be canonized before that Polish guy
144 - gonzo marx
it's lunch time here in Maine, so that must mean it's time for your humble Narrator to attempt the Enlightenment of RealCon..
RealCon sez..
*If we want new “liberties” -- we can have them -- by Constitutional Amendment… that’s the way it’s supposed to work…*
i ,repudiate that little bit of logical fallacy
the Constitution is the social Contract bestowing and defining the limits of the power and authority that we, the Citizens grant our Government...the Bill of Rights are the guidelines of the basic minimum Liberties we, the Citizens , require of our Government...and the Amendments are there to modify as we, the Citizens determine
i also find it soOOOooOOOooo amusing when some folks get the people in a Position they want, then whine about "conversion" when they make a legal decision that is unappealing based on silly things like, Facts and Law and Precedent...you know..what they were appointed to do in the first place?
so much of this seems to belong to in-fighting bewteen various factions of the GOP over the "soul" and direction of thier Party
one could only Wish that sanity will prevail...if not, let us all "pray" that the moderates split off and gather some of the moderate demlicans to form a viable third Party alternative we can have as a solid Choice...
i can Dream, can't i?
Excelsior!
145 - RealCon
Re: Comment 142 posted by Dave Nalle
Dave says -- “What does the Constitution have to do with the Neocon invasion?
Did I say that the neo-cons are REAL Republicans? -- please -- put on your reading glasses!!!
If you REALLY are for a strict interpretation of the Constitution -- don‘t get blinded by your antipathy toward Republicans who are not of your religious persuasion …
Stop trying to perpetuate the little religious war that the liberals want…
Just stick with the “strict constructionists”… not the “social activists”…
Then Dave says -- “I hate to break this news to you, but the Republican party was founded as a 'liberal' party.”
And --- when did it change -- what manifesto are you reading?
146 - RealCon
Re: Comment 144 posted by gonzo marx
Re: One could only wish that…" that the moderates split off and gather some of the moderate demlicans to form a viable third Party..”
What are you smoking up there in the Maine woods?
Keep dreaming…
147 - RelCon
Gonzo sez -- “the Constitution is the social Contract bestowing and defining the limits of the power and authority that we, the Citizens grant our Government...the Bill of Rights are the guidelines of the basic minimum Liberties we, the Citizens , require of our Government...and the Amendments are there to modify as we, the Citizens determine…
I wonder where gonzo got that bit of wisdom?
It’s as if the “Bill of Rights” are not simply the first ten “Amendments”?
When I went to school -- I learned that the first Ten Amendments to the Constitution just happened to be called the “Bill of Rights” -- but they were simply “Amendments“… And whatever other “rights” we want -- also have to be done by “Amendments“…
But that is too difficult for some judges to contemplate … and of course -- it takes away a lot of their judicial power…
I have heard that -- “activist judges” -- in the solitude of their chambers -- sing a song -- it’s entitled “Power to the Judges”…
148 - bhw
And whatever other “rights” we want -- also have to be done by “Amendments“…
Sort of, but not exactly. The Constitution does not list all of the rights we have. It says so itself, in Article IX of the Bill of Rights:
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
In other words, citizens retain other rights not listed in the Constitution. Just because they're not listed there doesn't mean they don't exist or can be denied.
The framers certainly didn't "intend" for us to amend the Constitution and list every single right the people retain -- the document would go on forever. So they enumerated those rights which were extremely important for them to put on paper, and they left the rest up for grabs.
That's one thing that makes the document "living" as opposed to static.
149 - Mark Saleski
oooh, i like it when somebody sez "living document"...it makes scalia's forehead vein throb.
150 - bhw
I know. It was a deliberate word choice!
151 - Mark Saleski
(****throb.....throb****)
hey, it's a little like the telltale heart!
152 - bhw
heh, heh
153 - RealCon
Re; Comment 148 posted by bhw
Yes -- the Constitution does not list all the rights we have…
Certainly, citizens retain other rights not listed in the Constitution. Just because they're not listed there doesn't mean they don't exist or can be denied.
But the “other rights” we have are granted to us by the state in which we live…
I may have a basic right to have a dog -- but the state may tell me that it has to be on a leash .. And if I live in a rental unit -- I may not have a dog at all -- if that is in my rental contract…this would be enforced by the state in which I live…
But all of this could be overruled by a Constitutional Amendment -- or perhaps by the Supreme Court -- if it didn’t like dogs…
There’s not much “left up for grabs”…
154 - Steve S
In the next little while, the conservatives will likely have vast majorities of judges at all levels. Now we will be able to make it up like the libs have for the past 50 years.
What's funny is that most conservatives don't realize that the most liberal rulings come from conservative judges. The judge who just recently ruled in California in favor of same-sex marriage, is a conservative Republican Christian put in place by a conservative Republican President. The Schiavo judge was conservative too.
What conservatives are not interested in, is finding a judge who will make a conservative ruling based on principles of democracy. What they ARE interested in, is someone who can spin their agenda in legalese and find the way to make bigotry and discrimination, against gay people and against women and their choices concerning their bodies, stand up in a court of law.
Elsewhere those are called puppetheads and they do not fit in well with democracy, so if there's a bigger threat than terrorists to this country, it seems to me like it is the assault by conservatives on our judicial system.
155 - Shark
I just wanna sit back and watch a death-match between RealCon and DaveNalle!
Paradox: who do you hope will get massacreed?
============
re:comment #120, that flaccid: "It turns out his [Shark] numbers are either negative -- or very close to zero…"
RealCon, seriously, you don't wanna get in an insult-o-thon exchange with Shark.
Seriously.
Ask yerself: "Do I feel lucky?"
156 - Margaret Romao Toigo
Let's take a look at the context of the remarks with which Dana Fatic took exception in her article entitled, "ACLU wants people who pray removed from society"
The ACLU's outrage appears to be justified. Those folks in Tangipahoa Parish have not only been rather blatantly defying a court order, they have also shamelessly flouted the First Amendment.
This is most decidedly not a case of civil disobedience! (I am trying not to laugh at the ridiculousness of that notion).
The people who are violating the court order are not being oppressed by any means or by anybody because they themselves are the oppressors.
And in America, we are obliged to remove oppressors from society -- just like any other criminals who encroach upon our civil and human rights.
157 - Steve S
because they themselves are the oppressors.
And in America, we are obliged to remove oppressors from society -- just like any other criminals who encroach upon our civil and human rights.
Oh, I am so glad you are here, Margaret. You always put things into words so clearly and very short/crisp.
I've been saying that these Christian extremists are oppressing people here and now, and have been blogging it elsewhere on this site and all the response I get is that I'm insane. Thank you for putting my thoughts though about this topic, into sane words.
158 - RealCon
Re: Comment 155 posted by Shark
"Seriously, you don't wanna get in an insult-o-thon exchange with Shark..."
All I can say is -- “Fac ut vivas”
159 - Temple Stark
Take it to your own blogs. Share a blog. Quit beating chests.
160 - RealCon
Re: Comment 156
Margaret says -- “And in America, we are obliged to remove oppressors from society -- just like any other criminals who encroach upon our civil and human rights.”
Absolutely! -- Just like those criminals who have the audacity to continue praying in Communist China --
I say -- off with their heads!!!
161 - Margaret Romao Toigo
RealCon must be joking in post #160 because no one in his or her right mind could seriously compare a court order that was intended to protect First Amendment rights to the oppression of Communist China.
162 - Steve S
I think he's trying to turn the analogy of oppressor back into victim.
163 - RealCon
Margaret -- In that case -- I say not only "off with their heads"
We should have them drawn and quartered!!!
164 - Neil C. Reinhardt
Some IDIOT was saying the Nazis were against Christians prayers?
Probably is a Flat Earth member as they love to DENY FACTS as well.
Look Clueless, nearly ALL Nazis WERE, and ARE, Christians so try getting the facts straight.
Of course, since you are a Programmed Religios ROBOT, that is probably impossible for someone so limited as you.
165 - RealCon
We all know that Hitler, Goebbels and Himmler prayed every day,..
166 - Neil C. Reinhardt
Oh yea if this Real Con had a CLUE about history, he would know that HITLER
MANDATED Christian Prayer in School.
That the belt buckles the German soldiers wore had something like "God is With Us" and it was the Christian god it was referring to.
Hitler WAS A Catholic.
He was helped in to power and then supported by the Catholic Church. And Hitler has STILL NEVER been ex-communicated!
Since I grew up during WWII, I DO KNOW THE FACTS!
167 - RealCon
We all know that Hitler, Goebbels and Himmler were the epitome of holiness --
Yes -- (as Buchanan says) -- we do indeed have a "culture war" in this country --
I can see the venom oozing out of the counter-culturists...
168 - RealCon
Re: Comment 166 posted by Neil C. Reinhardt
You say -- “Since I grew up during WWII, I DO KNOW THE FACTS!
Really?
There were countless German Christians killed by Hitler, the devil worshipper,
P. S. What did you do in the war, Daddy? -- Hide under a rock?
169 - RealCon
In Hitler’s own words -- (circa 1944) -- ” We are not against the hundred and one different sects of Christianity, but against Christianity itself”…
http://www.nazis.testimony.co.uk/enemy.htm
170 - Margaret Romao Toigo
Nevermind the counter-culturists, RealCon, they're just a fringe group of theophobic hedonists who wish to be relieved of their personal responsibility in a different fashion than the self-righteous theocrats who need the threat of punishment and the promise of reward to inspire them to morally behave themselves.
Meanwhile, prudent and temperate folks like you and me understand how to resist the unavoidable temptations of the flesh that come with living in a free society. We employ our God-given consciences so that we may exercise our God-given free will with a sincere moral restraint that is inspired by God.
It is our faith that keeps us moral so that we do not go off the deep end to live a life devoted to Earthly pleasures of the flesh like the hedonists do. And we don't need the state to hold a stick over our heads to make us moral because already we have our faith.
So, let the fringes fight their silly "culture war" while the rest of us Americans continue to work toward the goal of realizing the promise of freedom as it was laid out by our Founders over two centuries ago.
171 - RealCon
Re: Comment 170
I believe that you have posted a fitting conclusion to this thread...
172 - Steve S
RealCon, ever heard of Mein Kampf?
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."_Mein Kampf
=====
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
"In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.
"Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.
"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice...
"And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.
"When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited."
Adolph Hitler, in a speech delivered April 12, 1922 Published in "My New Order" Quoted in "Freethought Today" April 1990
---
One can also examine the German culture at the time that gave rise to Nazism and fueled the ovens. After all, Hitler did nothing that Popes before him had already done.
For century after century after century, the Christian church had designated the people to be despised: the religious believers called Jews the "Christ killers," the "enemies of God." All the religious massacres of 900 years--- by Crusaders pursuing infidels, by inquisitors hunting backsliders, by superstitious mobs fearing tales of well-poisoning--- branded Jews as accursed. When popes ordered Jews to wear badges and live in ghettos--- or when they were expelled entirely--- it told the populace that these pariahs were unfit to live among decent folk. Passion plays depicting Jews as cruel mockers of Christ, and cathedral paintings of the evil non-Christians, fanned hatred of those the church called "the perfidious Jews."
Thus, when Adolf Hitler needed a scapegoat group to rally the discontented majority to his cause and catapult himself to power, natural victims clearly marked by the church were at his disposal. The Christian public, not only in Germany but also throughout Europe, was predisposed to receive the Nazi message of Jew-hatred.
That is from James A. Haught's "Holly Horrors," pg. 157-158. Also from that book we read:
"The Holocaust was, of course, the bitter fruit of long centuries of Christian teaching about the Jewish people." (Dr. Franklin Littell, Temple University.)
---
NOW maybe some of you might understand why I don't like my community having to live under constant condemnation as part of another's free speech. It's all about pushing groups of people into the outskirts of society, that's all religion is about really.
173 - Temple Stark
OMG - the words are the same to different ends, but any right-wing religion doused wack job (and I mean the ones waaay out there, not those simply "of faith") could have said those words any day of the month.
Chills. God is a tool.
174 - RealCon
1. It should be obvious that Hitler used religion to gain power…
2. It should be obvious that after Hitler gained power, he dropped the pretense…
3. It should be obvious that in centuries past, horrible crimes were committed by some…
4. It should be obvious that spewing venom at this time is counterproductive…
5. It should be obvious that Margaret has drawn a proper conclusion for all those except those who want to continuing spewing venom…
175 - Steve S
If setting the facts about history straight is spewing venom, then it is my duty to spew in your direction.