In Tangipahoa Parish here in Louisiana, the teachers and adminstrators continue to pray in school. This infuriates the ACLU who has continually taken the School Board to court to stop them from praying.…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
ACLU wants people who pray removed from society - Comments Page 2
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - RealCon
Shannon says -- “If prayer is a vital part of your life, then go about it on your own time.”
And what does “your own time” mean? Do we lose our own time in school?
Shannon again -- “I think most kids need to concentrate on learning how to read, write and reason during their schoolday, judging from their supreme lack of abilities in all three (when I was teaching a history 101 class at the local university).”
And the supreme lack of abilities in many children today can be attributed to what?
If prayer and schools don't mix -- it must be that for the 200 years of our history when there was prayer in schools -- there should be evidence that we turned out generations that could not read or write, or showed ignorance on other subjects -- but of course we know that is not the case… What is the case (whether there is causation or not) -- is that it has been the case since prayer was taken out.
You say -- “Until someone figures out how to get Jesus to do my math homework, I don't think the two need to be combined to increase the efficacy of either.”
Now this is interesting -- Who told this “teacher” that prayer is supposed to have any bearing on math? How about discipline and morals? Is that not something that students of the past got from schools? Are discipline and morals better now with no prayer? Not that prayer is going to help everyone but the overall experience of the past (read history) -- should tell us something.
And you taught history?
Wow!
I’m glad you didn’t get my children in your class.
27 - RealCon
Re: “Christian wack jobs“ -- Comment 17
Confucius say, “man who piss on other man‘s religion -- deserve urine job”.
28 - RealCon
Re: Comment 21 posted by Temple Stark
“Supreme Court decisions are part of the constitution.”
No -- they are rulings which can be and are overturned at another time. What is in the Constitution can be overturned only by a Constitutional Amendment.
29 - RealCon
Gonzo-- We should allow " O buddha" and "Hail Satan" -- whatever someone may want to say -- that’s what “free speech” is all about… As the First Amendment states -- we cannot allow “abridging the freedom of speech…”
Now -- we don’t have to “take up the entire day” to accommodate everyone -- if there is more than one prayer request -- take turns on different days…
Now that is simplicity itself..
The Supremes have made mistakes before…reversals can be made.
Your turn…
30 - dee
why do we christians feel we have to pray in schools anyway? I pray often...at my home, in my car and at my job. No one stops me cause no one can really stop anyone who wants to pray.
My children did not pray in school but they were taught to pray at home and they still pray daily and both are adults. Prayer does not have to be part of the school cirriculum.
31 - gonzo marx
fair enough...
but, as has been decided in the Supreme court...there are some small exemptions ot the "speech" clause...such as yelling fire in a crowded theatre...
the whole thing of prayer in a federally funded school has been convered extensively by the Courts...
you want it changed? get the Legislature to change the Law..
oh..that's right, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"...that kind of stops them from making a Law allowing it in a Federally funded institution, doesn't it?
a previous commentator talked about a "moment of silence"...sounds like a decent copmpromise that coudl satisfy everyone without violating any minorities rights...passes the "smell test" and won't step on any toes for offending their Faith or lack thereof
how about that?..work for you?
in comment 20 RealCon sez..
*The issue is what does the Constitution say -- not what we think it ought to say.*
but in 11 RealCon sez...
*And NO Constitutional Amendment has ever been passed to change the original INTENT.*
so which is it?..literal or "intent"??
hurts being hoist by your own petard?
>blows a kiss<
nice semantic dancing...but i believe we have each made our points...
until and unless the current Court Decisions are changed and/or modified then prayer does NOT belong in federally funded schools...and the folks that keep violating the Court Orders need to be dealt with, by fine or whatever the Court decides...
i understand that changing decisions such as this are part and parcel of the GOP's motivation to stack the Courts as much as possible...and whereas many Americans either favor it, or fail to see it...
let me assure you, i am not the only one who notices
and this Jester will keep shouting it from the rooftops...job description and all that
but thanx for helping define the debate on the Issue
i still think it would be Fun to alternate between "our Father" and "Hail Satan" and "o Buddha" and "great Vishnu" and "if it please JuJu the elephant god"
ad nauseum
your mileage may vary
Excelsior!
32 - Matthew T. Sussman
Dee, praying in cars is actually a good idea:
"Lord, grant me the serenity to not get out of this car and beat the shit out of anyone driving while talking on their cell phone."
Remind me to use that one later.
33 - gonzo marx
well said, dee...
would that more folks could follow your example...
Excelsior!
34 - francisco68
The issue really is not the deficiencies of one or another southern state (even though I grew up in the south and have hated its intolerance for the past 45 or 50 years of my life). The issue is freedom from the kind of daily annoyance I suffered for my years of public education during which I was treated to new testament bible readings and Christian prayers every morning. I was not a Christian and it confused me as a child. After my family complained and I was singled out to be exempt from the daily praying and bible thumping it was worse because I was odd man out which is hard for children. The issue is more than our poor, threatened constitution and bill of rights. It is the threat of born again Christian dominance over public, secular institutions.
I singled out Louisiana and that was before some Christian cult was charged with sexually molesting children and animals (according to CNN). But Louisiana is not alone. The south is where these zealots have had too much power for many years.
The KKK intoned the same "Christian" values. Worse, the USA in recent years is more accepting of limiting freedom of and from religion. Something is deeply wrong and these discussions bring it out.
35 - RealCon
C’mon gonzo -- “yelling fire in a crowded theatre? -- You can do better than that…
Yes, the court does relies on “federally funded schools” in its decisions. As an aside -- that is good reason to change the funding method and use vouchers instead. That way the Supremes could get out of a poor ruling which otherwise will not go away. And of course we all know our “federally funded schools” are a disaster -- in a few years -- unless we improve the quality of education -- we will lose more and more jobs to countries like China and India…
However -- it will take more than the Legislature to change what the Supremes have ruled (they do rule supreme) -- or else it would have already been done.
What I said can be taken literally: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" -- means that Congress cannot establish a (state) religion.
It would seem that a "moment of silence" is a decent compromise that could satisfy
everyone without violating any minorities rights...passes the "smell test" and won't step on any toes for offending their Faith or lack thereof.
Yes -- it would seem so -- but the ACLU says it won’t! Those “people of faith" have an ulterior motive -- and the ACLU will have none of that!
And what I said in Comment 17 was -- The Founders had no problem with what is now being called “illegal praying” -- for almost 200 years public schools in this country started the school day with prayer” --- That implies INTENT… “And NO Constitutional Amendment has ever been passed to change the original INTENT”’
The original INTENT must have been what was done for almost 200 years and it has never been changed by a Constitutional Amendment -- it simply has been ignored in recent years by our recent Supreme activists.
Unless the current Court Decisions are changed and/or modified and prayer is not allowed -- folks will keep violating the Court Order -- it’s called civil disobedience. So be it.
Indeed --changing decisions such as this are part and parcel of the GOP's motivation to return the country to the people and to revert to a Supreme Court that interprets the law instead of making it.
We agree it would be fun to alternate between "our Father" and "Hail Satan" and "o Buddha" and "great Vishnu" and "if it please JuJu the elephant god” --
That’s the American way -- let the best man (or God ) win.
Unfortunately my mileage never varies -- it’s always lousy…
36 - gonzo marx
i'm all for the civil disobedience bit..now take personal Responsibility for the actions and suffer the consequences..
good to see you admit that many of the political actions of the GOP stem from their Fundamentalist Agenda...refreshing, as usual, to hear you speak so honestly..would that the GOP did the same
as for "doing better" with my Quote..i think it does just fine, since it is verbatim from a Supreme Court Ruling..
silly me..i tend to side with previous Court Rulings that decided that freedom of religion includes freedom from religion...and the freedom to practice/worship as an Individual pleases..or not
as for the ACLU...last i checked, they were NOT our government...but a group of Lawyers doing what they believe is correct under our Constitution..some folks don't think so..in our Nation it's the Courts that get to be the referee in such debates
i am unaware of any time that any kind of "moment of silence" has been defeated in Court..if you have an example..please cite or link it?
as far as i am Aware, it has only been blatant denominational displays that have been shot down
as for this whole "almost 200 years" rationale...well, we had slavery for much longer than that (counting the time before the Revolutionary war) and we, as a Nation , decided it was wrong and changed that...
"tradition" or "that's the way it has always been" doesn't cut it as a Logical argument...our "map" is the Constitution, our Government captains and crews the ship of State, and the Courts navigate the "seas" in which we "sail"...
that's the way it was set up...i kind of like it...did my time in the military defending it...and even expend some modicum of energy here top do the Tom Paine thing in my own inimitable fashion
and i contend the GOP Agenda is MUCH more "activist" than any rulings from the Court in modern history
thanks for helping me show why...
Excelsior!
37 - RealCon
Re: Comment 34
To this writer -- who suffered from the daily annoyance of “Christian dominance over public, secular institutions” --
Anyone who has to resort to talking about “some Christian cult charged with sexually molesting children and animals…” to make a point in this discussion is out of order. It shows why he should have stayed and listened to the bible readings,
And if that was not enough vituperation -- the KKK has to be dragged in --- in an attempt to make it appear that the KKK represents Christianity Again, it shows why he should have stayed and listened to the bible readings,
Something is deeply wrong here and his invective is it.
38 - gonzo marx
oh..i dunno about that RealCon..
as i have pointed out in various topics..it is just as much, if not more, of a concern when self proclaimed "Christians" can't seem to follow some of the basic tenets of their Faith...
"do unto others"
"render unto Ceasar"
and my favorite..
"let he who is without sin cast the first stone"
let's not forget "love thy neighbor"
nuff said?
Excelsior!
39 - RealCon
Gonzo -- silly you -- there is nothing in the Constitution that speaks to “freedom from religion‘ and nothing that is being done in the school in question that deprives anyone of the freedom to practice/worship as they please… (except of course - the defendants)...
Unfortunately -- the ACLU -- knowing that enough of the current Supremes are activists -- has become our defacto government…
But you are right -- it is a game of philosophy (not really law) where the Supremes are the referees in a series of debates, which have gone far astray of the Constitution.
What the Supremes have done is to negate Amendment Ten -- “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
Yes -- we had slavery for much longer than 200,years and when we, as a nation , decided it was wrong -- we changed it -- guess by what? -- a Constitutional Amendment, not a Supreme Court ruling. Keep in mind that what the Supremes ruled in 1858 in the Dred Scott case was that a slave was "property"... So much for that...
All the GOP agenda is trying to do is reverse “activist judge” rulings -- of which the majority of Americans disapprove.
I also spent time in military combat to defend the Constitution and I appreciate yours.
Thanks for helping me along the way…
40 - RealCon
Re: Comment 38
AMEN!
41 - gonzo marx
RealCon sez..
*All the GOP agenda is trying to do is reverse “activist judge” rulings -- of which the majority of Americans disapprove.*
and here is the nut of where we disagree...thus it is up to the political process to determine the will of the people and implement it within the framework of the constitution...
as for Comment #40....i say
OH, MAN!
Excelsior!
42 - Shannon
RealCon says:
"And you taught history?
Wow!
I’m glad you didn’t get my children in your class."
Actually, my specialty is medieval Germanic religious history, specifically the conversion of the Saxons. What, now are you going to say "those who can't do [worship your way], teach"?
"And the supreme lack of abilities in many children today can be attributed to what?"
Too much time spent arguing over whether we should be allowed to praise Jesus, Buddha, Satan, the little fairies that live on waterlily pads and whatever else people worship; too little time spent learning how to do the things they're supposedly locked up in a school building all day to learn.
"If prayer and schools don't mix -- it must be that for the 200 years of our history when there was prayer in schools -- there should be evidence that we turned out generations that could not read or write..."
Yawn. For 200 years of our history, we weren't dealing with plenty of other factors that affect the quality of education, either -- like teaching to the test ('no child left behind,' my tuchis).
"Are discipline and morals better now with no prayer?"
Oh for the love of Buddha/Satan/waterlily fairies/whatever... Because praying in school automagically make up for poor parenting skills at home and all the other factors that create "problem children."
The problem with conservative/religious arguments in this vein is their quick-fix / simplistic nature.
Accept Jesus, and you'll be saved.
Pray in school, and discipline / moral values will be restored to everyone.
Jail everyone that admits to knowing what a joint looks like, and the drug problem will be solved.
Require students to pass a test to graduate and they'll suddenly learn everything they need to know to become productive members of society.
Everything is not black and white. There are shades of grey. If you want your children praying in school, then send them to a church-affiliated school of whatever denomination you wish, one that incorporates religion into the overall curriculum.
Would you be as accepting of prayer in school if a teacher chose to start each day with a prayer to Satan? I don't think so. Let's say you did. Would you consider it a waste of time in the school day? Don't teachers have more constructive things to do?
43 - RealCon
Re: Comment 42
Methinks thou protests too much...
44 - Matthew T. Sussman
Shannon, if a teacher was a Satan worshipper, then there's more problems than prayer in school. Unless she can separate herself completely from her beliefs (which we know isn't possible), she will follow principles of evil, chaos and sinning and pass it on to his/her students -- children to belong to other parents. At least actual religions, like Wicca and athiesm, teach "good" principles and that's all we should want in life.
Use a better example than the most extreme case. Islam and Judiasm have been kicked around in the thread and those are better scenarios.
45 - gonzo marx
and Matthew sez..
*Unless she can separate herself completely from her beliefs (which we know isn't possible)*
the perfect argument fo rkeeping Prayer out of public schools..
once again..the "smell test" proves it out
Excelsior!
46 - Dave Nalle
>>Use a better example than the most extreme case. Islam and Judiasm have been kicked around in the thread and those are better scenarios.<<
Actually, based on my experience with elementary school teachers Wiccanism wouldn't be a bad bet as a test-case religion.
Dave
47 - Shannon
Thanks, Gonzo -- my point exactly.
I find it fascinating Matthew automatically assumes the hypothetical Satan-worshipping teacher is female. Do you live in Salem, perchance?
More curious syntax: "actual" religions. Are you saying Satanism isn't? What meets the criteria for "actual religion" status in your world? And if you don't want *her* (going with your assumed gender here) religion rubbing off on other parents' children, what makes you think everyone else should accept your (presumptive) Christian values being imparted to their kids?
48 - Dave Nalle
Satanism is overwhelmingly practiced by males, of course. And it's also a legally recognized tax-exempt religion.
Dave
49 - Temple Stark
Males between, of course, 5-6 and 5-9 with brown, of course, or grey eyes, of course.
Of course.
You sure, of course, about the, of course, tax-exempt status, of course? It's not, of course, accurate, with such an, of course, blanket statement, without, of course, mention of, of course, the Egyptian set.
Of course.
50 - Dave Nalle
Not sure what you're getting at here, Temple, aside from my use of 'of course', of course.
The Church of Satan in LA was tax exempt last time I checked on it. Maybe they let the status lapse since Anton LaVey died.
Dave
51 - Margaret Romao Toigo
Shark posted Matthew 6:6, but Matthew 6:5 should be included with it to demonstrate the profound wisdom of this Scripture in its proper context, "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward."
I wonder if Dana Fatic is really standing up for our right to pray to God -- which has never been in any danger -- or just certain peoples' desire to pray for the benefit of appearing righteous to other mortal humans.
52 - gonzo marx
and there you go folks..Margaret is the winner of today's cookie!!
thank you for the Thinking..
Excelsior!
53 - RealCon
Hey -- gonzo-- I want that cookie!
Re: Comment 24.
Margaret -- Give it up!
Immediately!
Only (male) witches steal cookies.
54 - RelCon
Now back to the issue...
"ACLU wants people who pray removed from society."
I say move them all to Devil's Island.
A fitting punishment for the scoundrels!
55 - gonzo marx
so sorry , RealCon...
no cookie 4 u!
what you "want" is patently immaterial to whom i Award the coveted chocolate chip baked goods upon...
besdies..you already received an Award from me recently...the dreaded Insidious Troglodyte trophy...
you should be thankful for what has been bestowed...
"now, go away or i will taunt you a second time..."
(from Monty Python and the Holy Grail)
Excelsior!
56 - RealCon
Gonzo --
Cookie... cookie... I wanna cookie...
I believe you really mean "haunt" not "taunt"...
Don't be a mean (male) witch!
Excuse me -- I have to go take a shower to wash off the curse...
57 - gonzo marx
heh..wrong twice, RealCon..
a) i said taunt..and i meant it..
b) sorry, i am not a "witch"...tho i can be considered mean at times...less nwo than when i was younger..
and c) yer excused, me boyo..but i'm afraid what you've got can't be simply washed off...even with the "blue" soap..
nuff said?
Excelsior!
58 - RealCon
I dunno -- I showered and I feel great!
I feel almost as good as when I prayed in public school.
59 - Matthew T. Sussman
Shannon (Comment 47): "I find it fascinating Matthew automatically assumes the hypothetical Satan-worshipping teacher is female. Do you live in Salem, perchance? More curious syntax: "actual" religions. Are you saying Satanism isn't? What meets the criteria for "actual religion" status in your world? And if you don't want *her* (going with your assumed gender here) religion rubbing off on other parents' children, what makes you think everyone else should accept your (presumptive) Christian values being imparted to their kids?"
Presumptively, you are wrong. I'm not a Christian, so your question to me is moot.
But Satanism, by my definition at least, is an evil religion and should not be tolerated. Satan promotes death, suffering, lying, stealing and anarchy. Wiccans, atheists and other pagan followers don't do that.
"Actual religions" (which is probably a bad phrasing but at the time I couldn't think of what I meant to say, although I wanted to differentiate it from Satan worshippers) are all the big 3 (Christian, Islam, Jewish) as well as all others that essentially promote good will towards mankind and respecting your family, being charitable, that type of stuff.
But religion needs to be taught in school. Not a religion. Religion. The concept of it. The growth of it. The need for it. Greek mythology. Confucius. Mohammed. Jesus Christ. Atheism. How religion is involved with world issues more than any other establishment and why. What's wrong with that?
People are for the most part ignorant of others' religions and that leads to the problem. Those who do not understand Christianity, for example, misinterpret "eye for eye, tooth for tooth" as an endorsement of capital punishment, when it's actually meant to a reason not to murder. People think Christians believe homosexuality is a sin, but it's not -- being is ok, doing is not. So many people don't know this. Likewise, I do not know much about other religions, save that of a bit about Islam because I know a Lebanese family, but that's about it. I am ignorant of other religions, and this ignorance needs to be quashed at the first public learning forum we have -- the school.
(And my presumption that a Satanist teacher was female wasn't that of witch affiliation. My subconscious hunch was that most K-12 teachers are female, as were many that I had. It was gender neutral in my head but I mix up "his" and "her" so much in writing/speech. I think I'm gender dyslexic.)
(*Deep breath*)
60 - Shark
I did this subject over a year ago, a "what if" scenario that's still funny and profound.
There is nothing else to say.
61 - RealCon
Shark is onto something --
“If schools accommodate one religion, they have to accommodate all.”
Also see: Comment 35 -- “We agree it would be fun to alternate between "our Father" and "Hail Satan" and "o Buddha" and "great Vishnu" and "if it please JuJu the elephant god” -- That’s the American way -- let the best man (or God ) win.”
The actual implementation is simple:
The process would be democratic. Before each game -- a vote would be taken.
Each student would have one vote to pick which God would be prayed to before a game. A majority would decide the outcome. It’s simple. The ACLU could then find another reason to exist.
62 - BillB
This thread is way to much fun.
What I wanna know is did they really say this?
>"Their refusal to comply with the consent decree should and must result in their removal from society." (emphasis added)<
I can only picture some thoroughly exasperated ACLU Lawyer with hair all unkempt, shirt half tucked into pants and tie half undone having had it with the law being ignored with no consequence.
If the quote is true, they probably got a tongue lashing from someone higher on the food chain.
I'm with Margaret and Gonzo re Comment 51.
It's just a show.
Seems to me the more they push their religion, the less secure they are in their own shoes - or er sandals.
They're groping for some external validation.
Your 45 minutes is up - same time next week?
63 - Dave Nalle
>>But Satanism, by my definition at least, is an evil religion and should not be tolerated. Satan promotes death, suffering, lying, stealing and anarchy. Wiccans, atheists and other pagan followers don't do that.<<
Modern Satanism - as in the Church of Satan - isn't actually evil, or at least they claim not to be. Their creed is more one of amorality than evil.
And FYI Wiccans and other Pagans are just about as likely to lie, cheat or cause chaos as any Christians, Moslems or Jews.
Dave
64 - Dana
Margaret,
What I am standing up against is the ACLU saying they want to "remove them from society." That is the problem that I have with the ACLU in this article. My chief complaint is with the ACLU's action and reaction to this situation in Louisiana.
65 - gonzo marx
i too am very interested in this "remove them from society" quote...
can you tell us exactly where it is from, link perhaps?
and is it meant as either
a) the same way incarceration removes any criminal from society
or
b) or "removal" in the Don Corleone sense?
i think b) might be a tad harsh...
your mileage may vary
Excelsior!
66 - Dana
It is a story from the Associated Press. Here is the link
And I agree that the statement was extremely harsh.
67 - Dana
By the way,
I pray in private. I don't pray for show.
68 - gonzo marx
thank you very much for the linkage
unfortunately i will need to go and search AP...the link provided is for a local news station and wants me to "register"
based on your reply..i am guessing a) was correct...and thus the ACLU's language was not as harsh as the b) option would have been...i very glad...i know the ACLU can seem a little nutty sometimes, but i had not really thought they would go that far..
so you are of the Opinion that those that violate a Court Order should not go to jail after multiple Offenses?
thanks again for the discussion...
Excelsior!
69 - Dana
Come on. Jail. Like I said in the article. Fine them. They are teachers, in Louisiana. They don't make a lot of money. Fine the offenders each time and I guarantee it will stop. Besides, according to local news here, the situation has been resolved, but the ACLU still wants them jailed.
70 - gonzo marx
if it has been resolved, then no problem..
any punishment for the infraction is up to the local Laws and the Court's discretion within aforementioned parameters...
you know, the whole Rule of Law thing..
Excelsior!
71 - Matthew T. Sussman
Dave Nalle (Comment #63): "And FYI Wiccans and other Pagans are just about as likely to lie, cheat or cause chaos as any Christians, Moslems or Jews."
FYI, nobody's saying anything to the contrary.
72 - BillB
Gonzo,
This isn't the exact story but it does indeed have the quote as cited. Kinda bizarre.
To Dana
>By the way,
I pray in private. I don't pray for show.<
In case you misinterpreted, I wasn't speaking to any individual, as much as the concept of prayer in School.
Why would you think I was speaking to you personally?
73 - Margaret Romao Toigo
Dana, I read the whole article you posted, in context, and the ACLU wants these people "removed from society" (sent to jail) for violating a court order, not for praying.
Intellectual dishonesty is a form of bearing false witness against one's neighbors.
74 - Eric Olsen
don't mess with Margaret
75 - RealCon
Looks like this bus has run out of gas and has stalled... anyone strong enough to push it?