Take it from another typical white person, stereotypes or not, I can certainly understand Barack's grandmother's fear.
Barack Obama apparently deftly delivered another bullet to his foot with his recent comments about his "white grandmother." He called her a "typical white person" and the news commentators on radio and TV are lovin' it! The tone of their comments boils down to this: "How dare he, a black man running for president, use racial stereotypes when racial stereotypes have done so much to hurt civil rights?"…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Dan Miller
Typical White person, indeed.
How many "typical White" grandmothers would have raised and loved as their own a young Black child thirty years ago? Before it was fashionable and politically correct to do that sort of thing? My guess is that she was rather special and that Senator Obama so regards her.
Having read Senator Obama's speech, I strongly disagree with those who claim that he "threw her under a bus." He did nothing of the kind. He simply recognized that she, like everyone, is a product of his environment -- an environment which, in many respects has got worse rather than better over the past three decades or so. He no more threw her under a bus than he did his former preacher; many of us would like to have seen him throw the preacher under a bus physically, or at least figuratively, but he didn't.
According to the article,
"Perhaps if Barack's white grandmother spent more time in urban ghettos she would become accustomed to all the different manners of dress and behavior " perhaps if I spent more time there I would also be more comfortable with those who seem to go out of their way to look and act 'different.'"
I rather doubt it. There is nothing per se wrong with people who "look different" or even with those who "act different." People who wear clown costumes, or go around juggling apples, are not generally seen as a threat. People who look and act as though they want to mug you or worse should not realistically expect to be invited home for a nice hot cup of tea. Had Senator Obama's grandmother spent more time in urban ghettos, she might well not have been around to raise her young Black grandson.
There are plentiful bases for White preconceptions of Blacks and vice versa. I think -- I do not know, but I think, and hope -- that Senator Obama was asking us to realize the existence and bases of those preconceptions, and to deal with the reasons why they exist. I think, and hope, that he recognizes that the burden is at least as much on the Black as on the White community. Perhaps that is why he opined that members of the Black community must take
". . .full responsibility for own lives " by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny."
It must have been difficult for someone seeking to win the Democrat nomination for President to say these things. Perhaps honesty is not a trait which we expect in our leaders. Perhaps the same old applause-followed catch phrases are so comfortable that we want no more. If so, the Reverend Wright's invocation of G*d to damn America is unnecessary. We will do quite well without divine assistance.
Dan Miller
27 - REMF
Dan;
I wonder if Barack is wishing he would've chosen his words better? Perhaps "...like some white people..." would've been more appropriate.
28 - Bennett
Reminds me of a year or so ago, getting out of my car parked behind a row of apartments in a inner city Toronto neighborhood that my brother lives in.
As I crossed the lot I noticed a group of young men sitting on a bench in the direction I was walking. They were late teen of African decent, and that's cool as far as I'm concerned. As I approached, me a late 40's white guy, I said "Gentlemen, how goes it?"
They were open, friendly, and we passed comments on the beauty of the evening, and I went my way. I could have felt threatened, but chose not to be.
It's all in your approach. If you expect people to be civilized and friendly, they usually are. My brother told me later that they were some local drug dealers, but that had nothing to do with our personal interaction, nor should it have.
The power of opening a conversation with a group of young males (of any ethnic background) by addressing them as "gentlemen" cannot be understated.
Try it sometime, you'll be happy with the results.
Spread the respect of humanity.
29 - Mudkips
Facts are cool, too:
Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery.
The single best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percentage of the population that is black and Hispanic.
Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent.
Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.
Blacks are 2.25 times more likely to commit officially-designated hate crimes against whites than vice versa.
Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black.
Only 10 percent of youth gang members are white.
Hispanics are 19 times more likely than whites to be members of youth gangs. Blacks are 15 times more likely.
Blacks are seven times more likely to be in prison than whites.
30 - Dr Dreadful
And the extremist maniacs whose site Mudkips copied his comment wholesale from would have you believe that economics do not factor into those statistics at all - only the color of a person's skin.
31 - Bennett
Ah, but that's all bullshit when it comes down to day to day interaction. I don't live in any of the Southern California gang infested neighborhoods where you get your statistics.
Let's talk about the other 99.9% of the world.
On any given day, in any other place in the world, there are millions upon millions of interactions between people of different ethnic backgrounds without any hostility or violence.
Why choose to focus on the event akin to lightening striking when there's all that clear sky out there?
We DO live together in peace, despite what the racists would have you think.
32 - Clavos
"We DO live together in peace, despite what the racists would have you think."
Quoted for Truth.
My city (Miami), is one of the most multi-racial in the USA. There are very few neighborhoods I'm afraid to walk in after dark.
We do more than get along with each other here; the majority of us respect each other, like each other, and relish and delight in our city's diversity.
33 - Zedd
Doc,
I've been to Britain a number of times and the funny thing is that as a Black person it takes a little while getting used to being treated normally. One feels awkward at first, like what's going on, no one is grinning at me or looking annoyed that I dared need aspirin today or milk at the same store as them or exchanged air paths with them. Being ignored in a good way is fantastic. But again it's daunting at first. Your like "whats going on here". It's as if the entire city is going to stop and crack up pointing at you any minute like some surreal movie. Another thing is white guys hitting on you more openly. I get hit on by white guys in their cars or get the lusty looks here (perhaps I'm cute) but in London its a lot more overt. It's startling at first. At first "I'm thinking what a weirdo, we don't do that", than i remember where I am.
Anyway, you probably don't feel threatened because you see Black people more as just human than Americans. Also, the class system in Britain is not necessarily defined by race. One is a commoner and that it is. Also, Brits dress hip cool and funky. So funkiness is normal and not threatening. Lastly I think the reason that the music from your part of the universe is so good, is because of a much greater acceptance, respect and open mindedness towards Blacks and their culture. White Americans are afraid to get too close to Blackness else they become tainted so they nab the things that they admire and pretend that it is of their origin.
34 - Dr Dreadful
Zedd,
I think that, despite what some of the American nobody's-alive-today-who-was-a-slave-or-a-slaveowner deniers will say, that history does have a lot to do with attitudes on the left end of the Atlantic.
There were African slaves in Britain, but they never reached anywhere near the proportion of the population that they did in the US, particularly the southern states. Also, the fact that we've long been a seafaring nation - with for a long time, I might add, the largest empire the world has ever seen - means that we're used to strangely-dressed, darker-skinned or differently-mannered people walking the streets of our major cities - all of which* are ports.
That's not to say that there isn't racism in Britain. There is. But for the most part, our culture of politeness overrides it.
* With two exceptions, neither of which were major cities at the time slavery was legal.
35 - Zedd
You make some good points.
I am completely convinced that 90% of White Americans don't have negative intentions where it comes to race matters. There are however some systemic, deeply ingrained issues that are such a part of our fabric that they are not noticed.
Americas sense of good vs evil has a great deal to do with this polarization. Americans are not as nuanced as the rest of the planet. They feel comfortable with hard and fast. A huge culprit is Hollywood, especially 40's - 80's cinema. All that manufactured cockiness drew the line in the sand about everything.
Also when African Americans rioted in the sixties, Whites got scared. Urban Blacks spoke honestly, challenging the obvious yet strangely ignored myth of democracy in America. Americans were used to congratulating themselves, especially since the end of WWII. All of a sudden America was evil. It would either be America's version of herself or Blacks. White America chose America the beautiful and demonized Blacks. At no point in our history has there been a collective, "you are right". The truth about our experience is always acknowledged decades later. Presently, we are always wrong, and incompetent at all levels. Meaning America is always right, best in all things.
36 - Arch Conservative
"stop the whining, that is the most typical out of your comments. "if that was a white guy who said the same thing about a black guy.." GET OVER IT"
Well when Osama Obama goes down in flames and all of his little pea brained minions start bitching about how he couldn't get elected because he's black the rest of us will just have to say........
"GET OVER IT!"
37 - troll
the following is a list of truth commissions
while I am not sure how this approach would work in the US to satisfy Zedd's Rx there might be some ideas here:
Argentina
Bolivia Chad
38 - troll
well fuck it - the comments tool is too finicky to accept the second entry in a long list of commissions
the info is out there for interested readers to find
39 - Dan
A study of racial crime and violence statistics isn't made untrue by characterizing the motivations behind it as racist.
The problem with one way dialogue is that the lies about America's so called "racist" history are never examined.
Folks like reverend Wright are then free to transmit their hatred to an ignorant flock.
40 - Dan Miller
Zedd,
At 2345 last night, you commented,
"I've been to Britain a number of times and the funny thing is that as a Black person it takes a little while getting used to being treated normally. One feels awkward at first, like what's going on, no one is grinning at me or looking annoyed that I dared need aspirin today or milk at the same store as them or exchanged air paths with them."
I think that is great, and wish the same universally true.
Then, at 0050 this morning,you said,
"I am completely convinced that 90% of White Americans don't have negative intentions where it comes to race matters. There are however some systemic, deeply ingrained issues that are such a part of our fabric that they are not noticed."
Perhaps there is no contradiction, but if the second comment is to be taken at face value, why do you get a better feeling in England? By whom in the U.S. are the "systemic, deeply ingrained issues" not noticed? Whites? Blacks? Typical Whites? Typical Blacks? As a Black male, you evidently notice them (or in any event you noticed their absence in England and now notice them in the U.S.), and in that respect I suspect that you may qualify for the "T" word. As a White male, I lack complete awareness of those issues as reflected in the behavior of Whites, and in that respect probably qualify for the "T" word as well.
I think it is time for us all to notice them -- the "systemic, deeply ingrained issues", as reflected in the behavior of all of us -- because something which is not noticed can't readily be changed. Calling these things to our attention is certain to cause offense, just as telling your wife that she really should drop ten pounds. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
If calling these "systemic, deeply ingrained issues" to our attention causes offense, and Senator Obama's speech certainly did, I think it worthwhile nonetheless.
Dan Miller
41 - Maurice
I too have been to England and experienced similar feelings as Zedd. One thing to remember - America is a big country and you can experience all kinds of prejudices in different areas. My wife is white and when we lived in Detroit we got some double looks and stares when we would go out.
Here in Idaho we are accepted completely. Sometimes I get annoyed with the overly obsequious white person trying to make me feel comfortable. But for the most part people try me like what I am - a person.
42 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
At no point in our history has there been a collective, "you are right". The truth about our experience is always acknowledged decades later. Presently, we are always wrong, and incompetent at all levels. Meaning America is always right, best in all things.
What you say is true not just for blacks but for many others, as well. That's the "love it or leave it" syndrome, Zedd. Notice - I left....
43 - Fool Me Twice
As a European-American (hey, if we can't say Negro we can't say Caucasian either), I have absolutely not the slightest qualm about avoiding contact with black people on the sidewalk.
I have lived on the South Side of Chicago as well as other similar places, and many, many bitter and pointless acts of harassment and abuse have hardened me to the sweet lies of Political Correctness. Obviously, there is no reason for me to make any further effort here.
My future contact with persons of color will be as minimal as I can possibly make it, and it's their fault. Every bit of it. It's also their loss, and I hope they realize that some day.
Mr. Obama, who used to be my candidate for president, has listened to twenty years of hate speech in a pulpit. Incitement to race-based violence, plain and simple. Now he off-handedly calls "white people" typical. Unforgiveable...but since he wants to be a "typical black person," I'm giving him the wide berth he deserves. If Hillary loses, I vote McCain.
And don't bother trying to lock eyes with me and stare me down. I don't see you anymore.
44 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
In America, I was always conflicted about blacks, especially when the hatred of Jewish store owners emerged as an issue. We're going back about forty years now....
My father, z"l, always told me that for the most part, the Jewish store owners deserved the contempt and anger the blacks felt. He said that blacks were exploited by the Jewish businessmen, and gave a number of examples. On the other hand, I, as a Jew, was a target of much of this hatred.
When my sons were young and in elementary school in the States, I told them about how my father felt. That was what I tried to teach about black people to my kids - aside from the obvious point that they were people, like everybody else.
My younger son, the one who was always more perceptive, told me about the "hate success" attitudes he saw in a lot of black kids in school.
He was validating what I was learning from elderly blacks in Saint Paul who had been instrumental in founding and operating an anti-poverty agency I worked with. I have to emphasize here that this is what they told me. I could think what I wanted, but blacks, veteran activists, told me about this on their own in quite conversations over apple pie and coffee.
It was painful to listen to because these had been young and courageous crusaders in the 1950's, 60's and 70's trying to build a better life for blacks in St. Paul, and their disappointment was in their own grandchildren. They were also disappointed in the continuing racism and double standards of middle and upper class whites in St. Paul (I was never really felt part of the middle class, and most assuredly was not part of the upper class), but I knew about this from my own experience. Minnesota "nice" could only hide so much - and no more.
Here, knowing what I do about what I saw of how white abuse bred a black culture that seemed to worship violence, I view blacks here, the Ethiopian Jews, very differently. Unfortunately, the exploitative culture of rich secular Ashkenazi Jews is beginning to breed a Hebrew equivalent of what I saw in America, and it angers me terribly. I understand now what my father was talking about.
45 - Fool me twice
Hi--to the folks who are saying how much more comfortable they feel in the UK, I want to propose a simple experiment.
Go to London, stand in front of Buckingham Palace, and sing "God Damn the Queen."
See how much goodwill THAT earns you.
46 - Dr Dreadful
What the fuck does that have to do with racism?
47 - Dan Miller
Dr. Dreadful,
Not much, but what do you think would happen? Would the Queen come out and shoot the jerk? Would it just be ignored? How seriously would it be taken? Do you think that it would substantially impact a Parliamentary election and bring in a new Prime Minister? I have never visited England, and would be curious to know your perceptions.
Dan Miller
48 - Mudkips
"There are very few neighborhoods I'm afraid to walk in after dark."
Is Liberty City one of them? If so, why?
49 - Mudkips
Tony Blair must be a racist, too:
Tony Blair today called on Britain's black communities to speak out against gang culture, as he promised further new laws against knife and gun crime.
Following the violent deaths of seven black teenagers in London over the past three months, the prime minister said the killings were the "latest manifestations of severe disorder".
But he stressed: "We won't stop this by pretending it isn't young black kids doing it."
But I thought the UK was a nonviolent utopia?
50 - Dr Dreadful
Dan,
It would depend how you did it. If all you did was stand outside the Palace and yell, you'd probably just be ignored or at most, get a few dirty looks. Do it persistently, or start bugging or interfering with other tourists or passers-by, and a copper might feel your collar for breach of the peace (causing a public nuisance).
Free speech is just as valued in Britain as it is here - if not more so. When I last went home, in December, there was a large and highly visible demonstration about the plight of the Sri Lankan Tamils right outside the Houses of Parliament. There's a famous spot in Hyde Park, less than a mile from Buckingham Palace, called Speaker's Corner, where absolutely anyone can - and does - stand on a box and start spouting any kind of crap they wish - unmolested.
Being disrespectful to the Queen and the royal family is very common - you only have to pick up one of the tabloid newspapers to see that. As an American, though, you probably wouldn't be so freely indulged: just as you don't go to a dinner party and insult the hostess, you don't visit a foreign country and start criticizing their institutions. Americans are already thought of by many as 'unschooled arrogant Yanks', and behavior such as 'Fool Me Twice' suggests would just reinforce that impression.
51 - Clavos
"Is Liberty City one of them? If so, why?"
No, but Coral Gables and Bal Harbour both are.
The police in both neighborhoods are known for harassing strangers walking at night in those neighborhoods, particularly if their skin is black, but they are equal opportunity harassers; they don't like anyone walking in their neighborhoods at night, regardless of race.
Are you afraid to walk in Liberty City?
How about Hialeah? Little Haiti? Little Havana? El Portal? North Miami? Aventura?
52 - STM
Dan,
I can see where Zedd's coming from here. My experience in the UK is that people are generally (not always, though) colour blind, and if not colour blind, at least accepting while being aware that there are cultural differences. The British tend to embrace that stuff - the cultural differences - a bit more.
The reason: beacuse of their empire, they have had throngs of people of all races, colours and creeds coming and going into Britain since the mid-1700s.
They also began moves to abolish slavery, in Britain itself at least, where it wasn't widespread anyway, four years before the American Revolution (which I believe was one of the real reasons behind the revolution - the fear that Britain would abolish it in the colonies, and ultimately they did).
They have always valued free speech just the same as Americans do, and since the ideals of the American revolution came from Britain in the first place (which is why all our legal systems in the English-speaking countries, including the US, are virtually identical), you could say they were actually practising modern democracy (as opposed to the ancient Greek meaning) even before the United States.
A lot of Americans misunderstand the role of the Queen. The monarch has had very limited power (almost none legally, except for influence) since the Glorious Revolution of the late 1600s. Britain has been a robust, representative constitutional parliamentary democracy since that time.
The monarch has far less power than a president of the US, and they are really a rubber stamp on the executive branch of government - there to serve a purpose but NOT to rule. The elected Prime Minister is the head of government, and therefore rules, while the Queen is the head of state and only really a figurehead.
The only reason they exist today is that they serve a purpose in the function of a constitutional representative democracy.
As Doc points out: if you wanted to stand on a soap-box in Speaker's Corner, outside Buck House, or outside parliament and tell people you think the Queen should pack her bags and move to Australia, no one's going to stop you or arrest you. You could hold up a thousand placards saying the PM's a bastard, and no one would stop you either.
53 - Dr Dreadful
Tony Blair must be a racist, too
No, just a pragmatist. (Fallacy #1: Appeal to authority.)
Following the violent deaths of seven black teenagers in London over the past three months
Your concern for the black victims is gratifying.
However, it is a shame you left out this part of Mr Blair's speech: 'The black community - the vast majority of whom in these communities are decent, law-abiding people horrified at what is happening - need to be mobilised in denunciation of this gang culture that is killing innocent young black kids.' (Fallacy #2: Quote mining.)
But I thought the UK was a nonviolent utopia?
Whoever said it was? (Fallacy #3: Straw man.)
I feel I should point out, though, that according to the most recent available statistics (2005-6), there were only 765 murders per year in the whole country.
I feel I should also point out, in the interest of accuracy, that the linked article is almost a year old and remind you that Tony Blair is no longer the British Prime Minister.
54 - STM
On Doc's last comment, it's true.
The UK has one of the lowest homicide rates of the developed western countries, while the US has the highest. And the rate of gun homicide is about six times higher.
In some US cities - Washington's a classic example, with a figure in the decade to the late 90s of around 63.5 murders per 100,000 population - the rate of homicide still is or has been higher than that of many third-world countries.
So while the UK is hardly a non-violent utopia, London's still a much safer place to walk around than Washington.
Tougher gun laws in the UK compared to the US OVERALL (still easy to get an illegal handgun in Washington just by driving to Virgina or Maryland) are part of the reason, but the other is that the UK offers more social programs, educational and health, for instance, designed to even up to a certain extent the rate of difference between the haves and have-nots.
Yes, there are gang killings and violence and in some places, and a total disrespect for law and order in many area, in the UK, but it's not on the same level as the US.
Nowhere near it.
55 - Mudkips
Free speech is just as valued in Britain as it is here - if not more so.
LOL.
Speak your mind, go to prison.
56 - Mudkips
"In some US cities - Washington's a classic example, with a figure in the decade to the late 90s of around 63.5 murders per 100,000 population - the rate of homicide still is or has been higher than that of many third-world countries."
Link.
57 - Mudkips
"Are you afraid to walk in Liberty City?"
Normal people are:
"the residents of Liberty City, a predominantly black section of Miami, launched what was arguably the worst race riot of this century. It wasn't just a civil protest. Blacks went out specifically to get whites, to assault them, to kill them. Some whites were doused with gasoline and set on fire. Some were beaten senseless in the street and run over, repeatedly. Nobody in Liberty City apologized. And when President Carter visited the area a few weeks later, to promise money for rebuilding the sacked neighborhoods (money that apparently never got there), blacks booed him and threw rocks and bottles at his motorcade."
Lifetime chances of a person going to prison are higher for blacks (18.6%) and Hispanics (10%) than for whites (3.4%).
Based on current rates of first incarceration, an estimated 32% of black males will enter State or Federal prison during their lifetime, compared to 17% of Hispanic males and 5.9% of white males.
If you are honestly more concerned about walking the streets of lily-White Bal Harbour alone at night than the streets of Liberty City, you're probably not too bright.
58 - Dr Dreadful
Speak your mind, go to prison.
Incite violence against others, go to prison.
59 - STM
Mudkips, when it comes to the BNP and comparisons to the US, you don't have a f.....g clue as to what you're talking about in relation to this.
You are confusing the absolute right to free speech (like too many not-very-well-educated Americans - not suggesting that's you - who don't know any better and who don't realise the first amendment guarantees no such thing), with the presumption that it gives you the right to vilify people.
It doesn't. Absolute free speech doesn't exist in the US either ... it's why you still have laws on libel, slander and defamation. It's also why they still get a fair work out in the courts.
You might want to look up some judgments of the US Supreme Court to get a heads up on this, starting particularly with the "fighting words" decision of the 1940s where the court implicitly offered the opinion that some things were outside the protections because they could incite crime and were therefore unlikely ever intended by the founding fathers to be protected by the 1st amendment.
There are a lot of Americans who think that the 1st amendment protections are absolute when they are not. If by your vilification you incite others to break the law, you can be arrested, charged, tried and jailed if found guilty in the US just the same as anywhere else.
So if you were to be involved in any such thing, I'd counsel you to be really careful in what you do actually say. The laws change from state to state too, but they exist and protections won't always be offered constitutionally.
As to the British anti-vilification laws - good on 'em. They are doing their level best to get that crap dead and buried, where it belongs.
It's been said before, but my rights end where my neighbours' begin.
Using a misguided and mistaken blind-belief in absolute free speech to incite others to break the law isn't about rights, it's about breaking the law. The BNP could hardly be held up as a bastion of freedoms and rights, either. It's a neo-Nazi party. The party itself isn't banned, though. Just the idiots who spout race-hatred.
As for the murder figures in Washington, they are correct for the late 1990s. 63.9 per 100,000 - which put Washington only below Colombia in terms of murders per 100,000.
That's disgraceful for the capital city of a supposedly civilised nation professing its brand of democracy as the best on offer.
I know you are using it as an example of a city full of blacks and hispanics, but it's not the only one in the US with a high rate of homicide. There are others with a majority white population that have very high rates as well.
60 - Mudkips
That's odd. In the racist United States of KKK-A, where we allegedly don't have the same depth of free speech as in Britain, Sister Souljah was never sent to prison for encouraging blacks to murder whites:
Tell me: How does it feel to keep getting facts stuffed down your liberal throat?
61 - STM
And any comment about so-called free speech in the US shouldn't be let go without mentioning McCarthyism and the banning of the communist party in the US, and the disgraceful pursuit of those suspected (not proven) of having links to communists.
In other words, if you even knew someone who was a communist, you could be hauled up before Joe McCarthy's congressional inquiry and have your life and your reputation destroyed.
That kind of witch-hunt is far worse than legislation designed to stop people inciting others to break the law.
A lot of americans live in cloud-cuckoo land in relation to this stuff.
62 - Mudkips
STM, you can flap your arms about as much as you want. The fact is, we don't imprison people here in the United States for having offensive or politically-incorrect political opinions. However, they do imprison people in Europe, including the UK, for committing thought, or speech, crimes. In Canada, they put you in front of a Stalinist "Human Rights Commission" for saying things that hurt the feelings of radical Imams:
Think only 4 or 5 million died in the Holocaust, instead of 6? Hope you don't live in Germany, Austria, France, or any number of other European countries, or else you'll likely wind up in a cell for a few months or years.
The lead singer of the German group "Landser" is in prison for singing pro-Nazi songs. In the US, the group The Nightwatchmen openly encourage left-wing domestic terrorism, and they are allowed to hold concerts and sell records.
Need any more examples?
63 - Mudkips
"If by your vilification you incite others to break the law, you can be arrested, charged, tried and jailed if found guilty in the US just the same as anywhere else."
We allow people to encourage others to violate the law in the US. The publishers of High Times aren't in prison. Nor the good folks at NAMbLA. Neither is Hal Turner. Nor The Nightwatchmen. Nor is the founder of Amazon.com in prison for allowing the sale of Mein Kampf. Al Sharpton and other similar "civil rights activists" basically threaten riots through bullhorns with chants of "no justice, no peace," but they are not in Gitmo.
I guess people outside the US are just jealous of our freedoms, so they lie about them and pretend we don't have them?
64 - Mudkips
"There are others with a majority white population that have very high rates as well."
Name me an American city with a White population 80% or higher that has a crime rate anything close to Washington DC.
65 - Mudkips
"the banning of the communist party in the US"
That never happened. Try not to lie next time, okay?
"and the disgraceful pursuit of those suspected (not proven) of having links to communists."
Again, you might want to try to get your facts straight.
66 - Mudkips
That kind of witch-hunt is far worse than legislation designed to stop people inciting others to break the law.
Yes. It's far worse to expose communist spies than it is to imprison someone for having an unpopular political view.
67 - STM
Mudkips, if you weren't behaving like such a racist dickhead and using supposed facts and figures from Wikipedia to back up a hateful argument, I'd suspect you are the just very type of typical, uneducated, dopey, ignorant, ugly American I'm talking about. You know, the ones who think America shouldn't be multicultural and who studied the constitutuion in fifth grade but didn't bother to look any further.
And belive it or not, I'm no namby-pamby liberal - I just don't believe people should be judged according to the colour of their skin. You don't have to be a liberal to despise the kind of far right-wing ideology of the neo-nazi parties.
And no, you just imprison people in the US for using speech to incite others to commit crimes (unless it's Senator Joe McCarthy and those of his ilk). What's the difference?
Paradoxically, it's people like you who cry about the protections of the constitution who are undermining them by your ignorance in relation to what they actually protect.
And mate, facts?? Wikipedia? Please, go and read a book. Something other than Mein Kampf would be a good start.
68 - STM
"I guess people outside the US are just jealous of our freedoms".
Lol. What a hoot. I live in a country that has far more freedom than the US.
69 - STM
And you are right, the US never banned the communist party outright. It was in everything but name, though: blacklistings, trials, jailings, deportations, etc.
That's freedom?
A lot of those targeted had no connection with communism or communists, except that might have associated with them on occasion.
Land of the free? Nah, don't think so ... never has been. Blacks weren't even able to sit on the same bus seats as whites or eat in the same restaurants in some states until the 1960s - almost 200 years after the Bill of Rights.
And of course, it WAS all about skin colour. Kind of makes a mockery about all men being equal and the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. Specially if you were still in chains.
Which for 200 years, made the whole thing a sham and a lie. Even Thomas Jefferson's lofty ideals and good intent turned out ultimately to be a pack of bollocks - he kept slaves.
America has only come to see the light in the past 40 years. That's not a long time.
70 - STM
"the good folks at NAMbLA".
Mate, are you serious here???
I wouldn't describe them as good. Anyone who has as their stated intent the changing of child-sex laws by trying to have the age of consent lowered to 12 (a 12-year-old's a lot easier to co-erce than an 18-year-old, which might be the clue) can't be described as good. Sorry.
71 - STM
Why bother? It's a free country, ain't it Doc? Let him do it.
The info's available on wikipedia.
72 - Bennett
"...launched what was arguably the worst race riot of this century..."
What a joke! You know that the 70's were in the last century, eh? Why not bring up the Watts Riots as well?
Do you really think your arguments are believable? I grew up in Oakland during the 70's, and it was a turbulent era of Black Panthers, militant civil rights activists, and an empowered black population.
Still, I came away from those years with as many friends of different ethnic backgrounds as white, and all who lived through it knew that skin color had nothing to do with a person's intelligence or propensity toward violence.
I had as many fights with white guys as any other shade, and some of my best teachers were of African heritage.
Your ignorant racist views were taught to you by your parents, and you are stuck in a kind of mental poverty that keeps you from becoming a mature member of society. I pity you for this.
The rest of us will continue to enjoy our good neighbors, society's ethnic diversity, and a gradual improvement of the opportunities available to all persons, regardless of ethic background.
73 - Clavos
Let's set the story straight on Liberty City today. Yhe piece you cite is an opinion piece by a freelance writer (with an obvious bias).
From Wikipedia:
"Liberty City is named for the Liberty Square Housing Project built in the late 1930s for Miami's low-income African-Americans, the second of its kind in the South at the time.
Liberty City is home to Miami Northwestern High School which has had a student population of more than 2250 students the past four years with more than 90% African-American and 6% Hispanic. Liberty City also produced the Miami Heat's Udonis Haslem and professional wrestler Alvin Burke, Jr. (better known by his stage name MVP). Darlyne Chauve's art studio and gallery is in Liberty City. Liberty City has produced many of Miami's rap stars.
Known for its contributions to black politics championed by former black congressperson Carrie P. Meek the area now has its own college. The college is called the EEC, short for the Entrepreneurial Educational Center. The Center has attracted top-notch faculty -- including attorneys, scientists, and scholars -- whose mission is to level the playing field in this inner city locale. Special credit goes to EEC Librarian Theodore D. Karantsalis who has developed what is considered to be the finest collection of black literature in the area.
Liberty City is also the location of New Covenant Presbyterian Church (Miami, Florida), which was the first Christian congregation of a main-line denomination to be organized for the specific purpose of being an integrated congregation."
And, regarding the riots (which were 28 years ago), also from Wikipedia:
"In 1980, the infamous Liberty City Riots broke out after an unpopular verdict in a 1979 case of white-on-black police brutality. The acquittal of five white police officers that beat a black motorist to death sparked the violence. By the time the rioting ceased the following morning, over 850 people had been arrested and 18 people lost their lives, including eight whites and ten blacks.
Police officers had pursued motorcyclist Arthur McDuffie in a high-speed chase. The officers claimed that the chase ended when McDuffie crashed his motorcycle and died. The coroner's report concluded otherwise. One of the officers testified that McDuffie fell off of his bike on a I-95 off ramp. When the police reached him he was injured but ok. The officers removed his helmet, beat him to death with their batons, put his helmet back on, and called an ambulance, claiming there had been a motorcycle accident. These actions were later admitted to by one of the officers while on trial. An all-white jury acquitted the officers after brief deliberation."
It's no wonder the citizens rioted. That kind of police behavior is exactly why I prefer not to walk in neighborhoods where the police are given free reign to harass.
Parts of Liberty City are dangerous, sure. My original point, Mud, was that there are very few neighborhoods in Miami-Dade county in which I'm afraid to walk, yet Miami is one of the most racially mixed cities in the country, and I stand by that point.
Most of Liberty City is safe today. My work takes me on a regular basis to a firm located in Liberty City; I've never been hassled yet.
I was born and grew up in a city much more dangerous than Miami. There are many cities in the US which are far more dangerous than Miami: Detroit, Gary, IN, and Newark come readily to mind.
Oh, and BTW, Bal Harbour is no longer "lily white." Like most Miami neighborhoods, it is now substantially Latino.
74 - Silver Surfer
Morning Clav. Sorry I had to rush off the other night. Some bastard smashed my wife's back windscreen in. It cost me $750 to get it fixed, because I didn't want to lose the no-claim bonus. We think it might be one of the neighbours who is arguing with us over - would you believe - a fucking palm tree that's on the fence line. This is the third incident.
This time I had to wait for three hours for the cops to turn up, as they were having a busy Saturday night so I couldn't call back as they had my mobile number at the station and said they'd call when it quietened down.
I can now answer your question regarding Vegemite that I didn't answer while I was in the servo buying chocolate milk and pepperoni.
We use it to trap unwary Americans visiting here.
"Yes, this is our equivalent of peanut butter ... try a spoonful, you'll love it."
Then watch as they grab their throats and beg for water.
Vegemite is basically a dark brown yeast extract that tastes a bit like a spreadable beef stock.
It's great on toast - but you have to use a very thin smear. All Aussie kids learn this at a very young age.
It's packed with vitamin B and good for you, but the trick is: with Vegemite, less is more.
Poms have a similar thing called Marmite, but like all Pom stuff, it's nowhere near as good.
75 - Dan Miller
Dr. Dreadful and others,
Many thanks for your comments on freedom of speech in England and in the U.S. History is interesting, and studying it is one of my favorite pastimes. I am well aware that the Queen is a ceremonial figurehead, and didn't seriously suggest that she might leave the palace in her ceremonial garb and shoot a big mouth protester, no matter what he might say or sing. You know that I was joking, and that I was just pulling your chain.
Seriously, though, in all the talk about free speech, one important point seems to have been ignored entirely: political correctness. It has become endemic in the U.S., and has attained legal stature. It is strictly enforced in the schools and, in my view, has gone way overboard -- way beyond prohibiting fighting words, potential incitement to riot, and giving serious offense. Even good things, when taken to excess, can be very harmful.
A friend who has lived in London for about ten years and I were briefly discussing U.S. politics a couple of days ago (Skype is wonderful). The subject of political correctness came up, and she commented that the U.S. is rather a laughingstock because of it. Was she correct?
Dan Miller