Can two opinions still be perfectly rational even though they totally oppose each other?
I was raised on a Wisconsin farm tended by the real-life incarnation of Oliver Wendell Douglas in the TV series, Green Acres. My father wasn't much of a farmer but he was an avid hunter, and a pretty good one, too. As such, I grew up with a fairly impressive collection of firearms which I eventually learned to use well enough, though no one ever called me crack shot.…
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26 - Clavos
I don't think so, not when TWO THIRDS of the guns found in Mexico's drug war come from America.
Many of 'em from our government, in fact -- the one presided over by your president, Barry the almighty.
27 - Igor
But wasn't that program created in the Bush era?
Maybe that program was just another one of the programs that Obama inherited and supported (just to promote presidential continuity) whether he liked it or not.
In any case, your personal bitterness toward Obama seems unjustified. Most likely, that program was created by some professional policeman who thought he had a great idea for tracing gun traffic and identifying kingpins. Maybe it was sincere, though misguided.
28 - Cannonshop
#27 Igor, just 'cause it was a bad idea when a Republican was doing it, doesn't mean it's a good idea when it's being expanded by Democrats-a bad idea's a bad idea, regardless of Partisan feelings.
Fact is, Igor, you have two Federal agencies, tasked with law enforcement tasks, short-circuiting Federal Laws to arm criminals in violation OF those same laws they are tasked to uphold and enforce-regardless of which party holds the White House, the continuation of, and defense of, this activity is wrong, can you grasp that concept?
29 - Cannonshop
It occurs to me, that I left something out...
Igor, Gunwalker was a criminal operation carried out by law enforcement officials, now, adding the Bush administration era people just adds names to the suspect/perpetrator list, it doesn't delete Democratic appointees who continued the operation, understand that?
Something else you are probably blissfully unaware of, is that in the firearms community (FFL holders and small operators) it's well understood that regardless of which party holds the White House, the ATF (BATF, BATFE, Whatever they call themselves this year) is a partisan entity strongly favouring both Gun Control schemes, and the Democratic Party...
REGARDLESS of who's appointed at the top to run it, the culture is decidedly opposed to civil liberties in that agency as a default condition. Harassment doesn't stop just because a Republican's in the white house, and the ethics of the agency only slightly improve for short periods after it's been caught violating one or more laws, major policies, or publicly bungling in a manner that paints the Federal Government in a bad light.
It's just the culture of the agency as a whole, not something that can be changed by a new administration's appointments. It was that way back in the nineties, it's still that way today. It will be that way to-morrow and twenty years from now.
30 - Igor
Of course the policy was wrong, no matter who pursued it. I was just pointing out that it was bi-partisan and specific antagonism toward just Obama was unjustified.
But I think @26 Clavos' comment demonstrates he has a hatred for Obama that transcends mere policy, especially when he ornaments his comment with a customary derogation.
So, if Clavos' comment is caused by his hatred of Obama (rather than his analysis of the policy) why would I, or any serious person, take Clavos' seriously?
31 - Clavos
So, if Clavos' comment is caused by his hatred of Obama (rather than his analysis of the policy) why would I, or any serious person, take Clavos' seriously?
Well, you'd be really stupid if you did.
32 - Clavos
...But of course, it's a fact that the Obama government was supplying guns to to the Mexican drug gangs...
And, somehow, pointing out that fact, "demonstrates [my] 'hatred' for Obama." What you don't realize, Igor, is I "hate" nothing and no one. I AM indifferent to practically everyone and everything, but hatred? Most people don't merit being hated and Obama's no exception.
I won't (and didn't) vote for him, but I don't hate him.
33 - Igor
Clavos: your own words betray your feelings:
"Many of 'em from our government, in fact -- the one presided over by your president, Barry the almighty."
A double ad hominem: one against me (that Obama is MY favorite, which is not in evidence and is not true), and the other against Obama (with your slighting tone).
Two invalid expressions in one syllogism, whoopee.
34 - Cannonshop
Igor, why does what Clavos feels matter more to you than whether the man is correct in his statement?
Fact: regardless of who started it, the Obama administration continued to arm mexican cartels with american guns. It's no different than trying to excuse one embezzler because his predecessor was also an embezzler. In this case, I don't think Barack H. Obama had any real input into the operation, But I suspect his Attorney General and/or head of DHS, and/or Treasury secretary HAD to have maintained authorization.
Notably, DOJ lawyers were engaged in resisting congressional efforts to examine this case-which leads me to conclude that Holder, at minimum, knew what was going on and approved of it. Given that we're talking about some prime Lawyering folk here, and a visible, obvious violation of Federal Laws, and not the administrtion of the cokeheaded alcoholic fratboy from Texas...
The claim of "amatuer mistakes" just doesn't fly, Igor-so it leaves a definite impression of malice and ulterior motives in the Gunwalker scandal-at least the part going on during the Obama administration.
35 - Clavos
A double ad hominem: one against me (that Obama is MY favorite, which is not in evidence and is not true)
Didn't say he's your "favorite." Said he's "your president;" which does assume, I admit, that you're an American, but nothing more; the president (whomever he may be) is president of all Americans.
...the other against Obama (with your slighting tone).
I can remember American presidents from Eisenhower forward. This one is, in my opinion, the most inept, bar none, including Richard Milhous Nixon and the "cokeheaded alcoholic fratboy from Texas" (nice turn of a phrase, there, Cannon!). And the arming of Mexican criminals, while admittedly not being carried out personally by him, is his responsibility. The buck stops on his desk.
36 - Cannonshop
#35 Thank you, Clavos. I try not to let the 'legends', whether left or right, define my perceptions of politicians, but Bush was, honestly, too easy. Esp. coming as he did after Clinton. Obama's tougher, not because he's essentially tougher, but because it's really hard to say anything about the man that you could say about someone else, without being accused of racism. It is VERY difficult to insult him as a result, unlike the comfortable ease of Bush, Clinton, Bush SR. or their predecessors all the way back to Washington-all of whom could be, and were, insulted, mocked and satirized with a fair degree of accuracy by their opponents.
But, especially in this country, in today's culture, it's very difficult to find something to call Obama that isn't going to cross uncrossable lines.
Even relatively benign things draw disproportional response. Makes for a rather one-sided situation...
37 - Zingzing
So that's why there's nothing but love for Obama out there... Was wondering why he was getting such an overwhelming free pass... What world is this? Is it possible to count to potato here?