Jews who understand their faith understand that the Redemption will be modeled on Passover. This is a scary thought.
This writer has been relatively quiet on events occurring here in Israel. The new Netanyahu government installed here a few days ago did not seem very different from the old one that just left. Terms like "right-wing" or "hard-line" found in the mass media are just not accurate in describing the new Netanyahu regime. The Likud party that Bibi Netanyahu wants to head is really "Labor Lite", a point underlined by the fact that Netanyahu aggressively courted Ehud Barak of the real Labor Party to join the government. The real Jewish nationalists in the new Knesset — members of the National Union Party of Ya'acov Katz — were carefully excluded.…
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26 - Baronius
Mark, I think we're all on the same page philosophically. Some people deny the existence of evil; we don't. A philosophy has to account for the most basic, apparent stuff of human experience.
There's a completely different question about the existence of an evil being. Let's call him Nick. I don't believe that Nick is responsible for all the evil in the world, or that Nick forces people to do evil. That's not what I mean by a personification of evil. That's Zoarastrianism, the belief in two beings, a source of all goodness and a source of all evil. No, I believe that there is a non-material realm with some good and bad beings.
There are three reasons I believe that: Thomist philosophy, scripture, and the history of the Jewish people. I'm surprised that Ruvy doesn't seem to believe that as well, given that we're in agreement about two of those three reasons. Let me explain the last of those reasons.
As someone with some Irish blood in me, I'm aware that history can be cruel to a race. (Of course, when given the opportunity, the Irish people have done some unforgivable things themselves.) If history took its toll on peoples randomly, it would read like the history of the Indian subcontinent for example - people taking a shot at each other whenever they have the chance. But no one has gotten the shaft as reliably as the Jews. Every time someone gets out of hand, the first thing they think to do is lash out at the Jews. That doesn't make sense. It's not fun like adultery. There's no earthly reason that the ugliest impulses in Babylonia, Berlin, and Berkeley, from prison gangs to pulpits, would all zero in on the same target. It leads me to believe that, when men allow themselves to be corrupted, the corrupting force has something personal against G-d's chosen ones. Scripture just fills in the blanks.
27 - roger nowosielski
Baronius,
Very eloquent, and I don't really want to disagree.
Let me field you a question, however. As a Christian, wouldn't you agree that the "chosen people" status has been forfeited so to speak. The disciples for the most part refused to spread the gospel to the Gentiles, and it fell upon Paul (or St. Paul, to you) to do so. So isn't it the case that according to the Christian doctrine, the original designation of the Jews as the chosen people (as per the Covenant) no longer applies because accepting Christ as the Savior because the decisive matter when it comes to salvation - which means the equivalence between the Jews and the Gentiles in the eyes of God, because it all turns around Christ.
Your comments, please.
28 - leighann
As a Christian, I believe the the Jews are still God's chosen people. When we accept the blood of Jesus as the sacrifice for our sins, we are adopted in but the Jews are still His chosen ones.
29 - roger nowosielski
I don't disagree that this was so originally. The question is: What's the cash value of this proposition?
30 - Irene Wagner
Yes, Leighann, what do you mean by "chosen ones?"
Are Jews chosen to RECEIVE something, or chosen to GIVE something?
31 - roger nowosielski
Thanks, Irene. I don't want to be a lone ranger either.
32 - Ruvy
Are Jews chosen to RECEIVE something, or chosen to GIVE something?
Irene, you remember my "welcome" to you on this list, don't you? That empty-headed preacher of happiness who supports Obama's "peace" initiative got the same welcome you did. In Turkey, the "Blessed of Hussein" talked of forcing a solution of "2 states for 2 peoples" - offering up MY land for HIS peace - something that this dim-wit writer ignored altogether, while quoting a book he does not understand at all - the Tana"kh. If that empty barrel wants to hand over his house in Seattle to Arab terrorists, that's okay with me. If Obama wants to offer up Chicago, or Illinois, fine, let him. If he wants to hand over the whole of the United States in reaching out to the Moslems, let him. I don't care. It's your job to stop the criminal.
BUT WE WILL NOT GIVE JACK SHIT TO SATISFY OBAMA'S BULLSHIT AMBITION.
But to get to your real underlying question, we were chosen not to receive (we already RECEIVED - The Torah, a guide to keep us holy), but to GIVE guidance in how to properly obey the Seven Laws of Noah - when the time comes.
Now to get to Baronius' seeming inablity to comprehend the importance of hayétzer ha'rá.
In a Redeemed World, the World of Truth, where the messiah is the ruler, there will no exploitation. But there will be no "free will" either.
Presently, you have the option to do good - hayétzer hatóv, and the option to do evil - hayétzer ha'rá. In order to get credit for doing good, you have to have the option not to do good. Your resistance to doing evil is what gets you the credit upstairs. Otherwise what's the point?
At some point, the messiah will get rid of hayétzer ha'rá in human beings. How, I do not know, but that will be his first really big change in the world. At that point, the "game" of getting merits and demerits for Judgment Day will end and the whistle (or shofar) ending it will blow. Whether Judgment Day will follow on immediately is doubtful. The planet is a mess, and needs cleaning up. We humans have really trashed this planet good. So there will be tikkún ha'olám - repair of the world. Looking at things, it may take a while.
In that world, there will be peace; there will be no exploitation; each man will sit under his fig tree and not be afraid. And there will be plenty of work to do.
But the events leading up to that world will not be peaceful. There will be war, death, plagues and all sorts of terrible things predicted in prophecy, but the extra religions running around will disappear as the world shakes under disaster, and the realities supporting them disappear. This economic breakdown looks to be the beginning of that disaster. At the end of this period, you non-Jews will be seeking us out for us to guide you in the Seven Laws of Noah - which most of your religions have anyway. This is in Isaiah. That is why the theological questions you Christians raise here scarcely interest me.
If it seems like I'm running out of steam writing this - I am. I think I may have pneumonia and will have to see a doctor Friday or Sunday about it....
This will be the first Seder I remember in decades that I will not have participated in - I'll be too sick to. So my oldest boy will lead - my youngest boy will ask the Four Questions. And I'll sit there, hoping I can keep my head up.
Feh!
A Parthian Shot for Baronius - yes, there is satanic evil in the world, and evil spirits in the universe. Hitler's regime was a flicker of this hell. So were the killing fields in Cambodia. There will be more coming before the World of Truth conquers the World of Lies. But when the yétzer ha'rá goes, it goes too. So much for Nick the Hob....
33 - Irene Wagner
RUVY - Instead of blowing off steam here, get your head over a vat of steaming chicken soup while you wait for a call from your doctor! There'll be plenty (well maybe not plenty...) of time to talk about the End Times when you get back.
Baronius - Anything goes in the Politics section.
They call it Politics because The Sex Religion and Politics section was too long a title. Happy almost end of Lent, btw, and joyous Easter. See you after then.
34 - roger nowosielski
"At some point, the messiah will get rid of hayétzer ha'rá in human beings. How, I do not know, but that will be his first really big change in the world."
I'll tell you how, Ruvy. It's going to become a habit WITH SOME. That's why this world is a crucible, a fiery furnace. And some with pass the test of fire with flying colors and others will perish. And this idea is embedded in much of religious thought, even in the reincarnation idea . But it won't be the Messiah's doing, but the saints'.
35 - Mark Schannon
Ruvy, Irene's right. Get thee to a chicken soupery. Get well quickly. And I'm sure your sons will do you proud.
Baronius, No, I believe that there is a non-material realm with some good and bad beings. I'm honestly trying, but I keep reading that sentence, and I just can't figure out what that realm would be like or how it would interact with ours. I can imagine it, but it almost has a science-fiction quality to it--I read too much sci-fi in my youth.
Oh well, it might be like quantum physics. There's the great line oft quoted by physicists, "If you think you understand quantum physics, you don't." I find that reassuring because the more I read about it, the more confused I get.
As for heaven, hell, the devil, and all that in the Jewish religion, it's very unclear. Ruvy uses the references, but I did some research for a book I was writing on the Jewish notion of the afterlife. Turns out that in the Torah, there's no mention of heaven. And biblical scholars can't reach agreement about the Jewish notion of an afterlife--not a surprise. Put a Jew alone in a room, and he'll be arguing with himself in five minutes.
Even Ruvy has written, I think, that Judaism is a religion that focuses on how to life a righteous, honorable life, not to curry favor with God, but because it's the right thing to do. I like that a lot.
Ruvy, something to mull over during your convalescence. What if the roles were reversed & the Palestinians offered Israelis what you're offering them? How would you feel?
All your religious folks, enjoy your holidays. I'll be watching the Masters.
In Jameson Veritas
36 - Baronius
Ruvy - YOU DO NOT SCREW AROUND WITH PNEUMONIA.
37 - Dr Dreadful
Irene - LOL @ the Sex Religion and Politics section!
Baronius - you're starting to sound like Ruvy...
38 - Baronius
Ruvy and I don't disagree on much. After all, we're reading many of the same prophetic books. Even if you only read history books or magazines, you could guess that the last news story in the world is going to be co-written by a Middle East bureau chief and a military affairs correspondent.
39 - Baronius
Mark, spiritual beings make sense to me. Physical beings make sense to me. The ones that really freak me out are the beings that are both physical and spiritual: the ghost-monkeys. They're bound by the laws of physics, but possess a consciousness that transcends time. They have choice. Their physical forms start at some point and stop at another. That's far weirder than mere spirits or bodies.
40 - roger nowosielski
What you seem to be saying, Baronius, is that humans are the ones that puzzle you. If if weren't for humans, the world would be simple.
41 - Mark Schannon
Baronius, you're pulling my leg right? Ghost monkeys? I did a couple of searches & it looks like it's either the name of a rock group or an urban (or suburban or rural) legend. But they make sense. Gandalf must have been a ghost monkey.
42 - Baronius
Mark, I guess I got too poetic. I'm talking about humans. We have physical natures and spiritual natures. It's easy to see how a physical being changes over time. A spiritual being isn't bound by time, so it shouldn't change. But humans have identity and an awareness of individuality, and our personalities develop over time, which is all very peculiar. So we don't need to look to the angels to wonder about the interaction between the spiritual and the physical; we can look at ourselves.
43 - Ruvy
A POST SEDER REPORT:
I felt rotten yesterday and retreated to my bed - until my wife said that they were ready to hold the Seder and were waiting for me. I hate being the guy they wait for - or on. I needed some time to think. I asked them to send in my baby boy (the powerful one who can throw me around like a sack of flour) so I could do some thinking out loud. If I were to get up at all, he would help me out of bed. I went over the various options with him and silently prayed for the power to lead the Seder. I did have a few things I wanted to say, and leading the Seder gives you that soapbox.
Remarkably - my prayer was answered. I got out of bed myself, came to the table and led the Seder. I got the strength I had prayed for: as soon as we reached the part where the meal was served my strength ebbed away. I didn't have enough energy to eat the delicious matza balls, salad and roast my wife had made. So I sat on a chair in the salon while my loved ones stuffed their faces. When it was time to say grace after meals and the full Hallel - this is one of the things that makes a Seder so looong - I returned to the table. When Hallel was over, we poured a glass of wine (well, it was actually grape juice) poured another cup for Elijah, and opened the door. And we read of our longing for Elijah the Prophet to herald the coming of the messiah, and for G-d to pour our His vengeance upon the nations for all they have done to us over the centuries. For this, I also had the strength. After this, the strength ebbed away. I crawled into bed afterwards, and have been more or less doing nothing all day long. The least real effort tires me out.
As for not screwing with pneumonia (something I understand about very well), I need to wait for a day when I can rely on the doctor being in the office. That will not be until Sunday. What is celebrated as Easter Sunday in the Christian world is just another work-day here. So, on Sunday. I'll be on the bus to J-lem hoping my doctor is in, and hoping for some powerful meds.
44 - roger nowosielski
So Baronius. How do you imagine afterlife? Spiritual beings without a body? St. Paul spoke of new, "heavenly" bodies. For without the body, can there be a personality?
Oddly enough, the interaction we see here on BC is enlightening. All along, I used to think that mind-to-mind kind of communication is the ideal (because all the irrelevancies are stripped away). Now I have second thoughts because I find it defective. Give me the good old one-on-one kind of talk. I'll take it everyday.
Which puts the idea of heaven and communication with spiritual beings under the question mark.
45 - Baronius
Roger, as humans, we are naturally flesh and spirit. I have to assume that we'll be like that in the next life.
Ruvy, we are bodies too. Please look after yours. Even religious-operated hospitals are open on the Sabbath around here.
46 - roger nowosielski
We had better, Baronius. The alternative would be scary. Imagine eternal life on analogy with the kind of (imperfect) communication we're experiencing on BC. That's not my idea of heaven.
Hell is much closer what comes to mind.
I sincerely hope that God is more merciful than that.
47 - Ruvy
Just so you all clearly understand - the only "chicken soupery" available to me is the bride's. We'll see if she is willing to make chicken soup (as opposed to matza ball consommé) tomorrow. In the meantime, I do have the strength to type and to call out the useful idiots I see on BC. So far, I don't see them on this thread, thank G-d....
Mark, the big "research", so to speak, in the field of the afterlife comes not from Jewish sages - who can barely agree on anything. It comes from Jews who have died on the operating table - and who report being judged or being given a dose of Divine Judgment before coming back. These stories go far beyond the "white light" stuff you are used to reading. They are not pretty and they are not pleasant. According to these reports - your entire life is gone over with a fine toothed comb - nothing, either good or bad is left out. The surprises come in what is viewed as good or bad. Having read several of these accounts, I have an idea of what my own character defects are, and the things I need to work on. Having read these reports makes me wonder if I can pass muster in terms of Judgment.
But moving to more general concerns: the real issue is not whether there is a heaven or a hell. There is a place of judgment where the righteous are - and there is a place where the soul is punished until it is destroyed. All the accounts I have read agree on this basic outline. It is there that the differences start to occur, with each person giving a very different point of view. Evidently, justice is individualized - very much so. There is no St. Peter at the gate; things happen quickly - very quickly - and in a manner designed to keep the soul being judged off balance. Those are the other commonalities in these reports.
48 - Mark Schannon
your entire life is gone over with a fine toothed comb
O.k., I'll buy that, but fair is fair. Do we get to go over this pitiful excuse for a creation with a fine-toothed comb? And with whom? I hope it's not some low-level angel type with no authority or knowledge.
I'll pit my sins against the horrors of the last million years any day, except, of course, the Sabbath.
Baronius, rats, I was hoping for something a little more ethereal with ghost monkeys. Oh well.
In Jameson Veritas
49 - Arthur Dent
Who are you calling a monkey?
50 - Mark Schannon
If the evolution fits...lol