Is the irrational opposition to President Obama motivated more by racial bias than political ideology?
The myth of a post-racial America dies quickly as opponents of the president use innuendo and unfounded allegations to damage the nation’s first non-white Chief Executive.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Dan
"This is not part of a pile-on, Dan."---Irene
Oh I know Irene. Not to worry. Truth is powerful. Even if you are wrong, but believe yourself to be true. Wrong isn't evil. Implying someone is evil (or piling on to question motivation) for speaking a carefully considered opinion, just demonstrates a desire to suppress truth.
I was disappointed that you didn't comment much on the Elizabeth Wright link about white brainwashing. I know you are a gentle Christian lady that is eternally optimistic. Most likely, thinking about race relations and terms like "genetic determinism" harsh that reality.
What happens though, when you read zingzing and pals speak gleefully of promoting the end of the white race? Their race. Not that I'm motivated to speak out against their creepy mental twist. I'm wondering about you. Do you feel any squeamishness at that that might make you ask for clarifications? It's Ok if you don't.
"i don't envision the same hellish minority-run future that you do, remember? not everyone thinks like you do, mr. deep thinker"
Then you needn't sneer about "being on the wrong side of history", everything will turn out great and I'll love it as much as you.
27 - zingzing
"What happens though, when you read zingzing and pals speak gleefully of promoting the end of the white race? Their race."
see, dan, you think that the lack of a white majority in this country will create "the end of the white race." why? will we suddenly stop making babies? or will THEY hunt us down and kill us? or will we be "grayed" out of existence (if that's so, someone of the white race must certainly like someone of some other race a whole, whole lot)?
and i notice you didn't answer irene's question. why not?
"everything will turn out great and I'll love it as much as you."
nope. everything will move along its historical line, and the world won't suddenly change to something drastically better or drastically worse. demographic shift creates gradual change, not sudden utopia or hell. and i get the feeling you'll be unhappy not being massa top dog.
"Implying someone is evil (or piling on to question motivation) for speaking a carefully considered opinion, just demonstrates a desire to suppress truth."
not when you believe that person to be spouting junk. you decided i am mentally incompetent in order to "suppress truth." what's fair is fair, no?
28 - Dan
spouting junk is evil? Glad you cleared that up.
29 - Irene Athena
Elizabeth Wright, whose blog you pointed me to, sounds like a black clone of me. There, I can offer her no higher endorsement. Her blogroll is what my blogroll would be if I had a blog: Veterans for Peace, Courage to Resist, Evangelicals for Human Rights, boy, she even has Idaho's Will Griggs and his anti-ProLibertate blog.
I can do a site-specific google search on her blog to see how she defines genetic determinism.
30 - zingzing
"spouting junk is evil? Glad you cleared that up."
well, not quite. it's not the "desire to suppress truth" that motivates one to speak out against what one considers "junk" (i.e., crap that is ill-considered and of dubious worth).
did that clear that up?
i think you're the biggest victim of whatever "evil" there may be in you personally, so whatever. it's more sad than evil.
31 - Irene Athena
I'm coming up with nada.
Looks like I'm going to have to hear your explanation, Dan. I can handle it.
I won't be around BC anymore today, so if I don't respond, it doesn't necessarily mean I've swooned.
Gentle Christian Lady. DANG. The new me is ACERBIC, Dan. Don't you forget it.
32 - Ronald W Weathersby
Thank you all for sharing your thoughts. It seems my little piece touched a couple of nerves and has elicited a good discussion.
It is revealing to me that in the 21st century there are still individuals who believe in the concept of racial superiority. Scary actually.
Oh well, it seems as far as we have traveled down this road we still are far, far away from a truly "post-racial" America.
It is truly amazing to me that so many of the people who talk about how much better this country was 'before' a certain time in history actually came here AFTER a majority of those of us who are of African heritage. Maybe, just maybe those who believe in that myth should return to their homelands and leave us Americans alone to continue our to work our truly unique miracle.
My fore-bearers have been on this land for centuries. They helped build America. They fought and died to preserve and protect it. This is MY home also and no one is going to tell me, my children,their children or their children's children any different.
When will we truly learn to look beyond skin color in our great country? It will be then and only then that America will indeed reach her fullest potential.
Once again, thanks for reading and I hope you continue to do so.
33 - Cannonshop
#12 Simple, I base my argument on your first defense of the President-that his critics are all a bunch of white-supremacy racists right off of Stormfront and the Aryan Nations.
I base it on the reflexive attempts to paint groups like the TEA Party (who formed in opposition to GW Bush's poisonous bailout policies) as an arm of the KKK and ANP.
Your first defense is ALWAYS race, and to paint any critic as being a "birther" (code for Neo-Nazi), unless you happen to know that the critic in question is a minority.
#32 Mister Weathersby, there are scumbags all over the world. There's racism in africa, between persons of darker-skinned persuasions. (Darfur, the Tutsi/Hutu civil wars, Eritrea/Ethiopia, etc etc. etc.)
Racist scum exist in every colour, flavour, style and type, from the dickhead who abuses scientific hypotheses via bad science, to the creep using religious scriptures, to the manipulators who try to use economic data to prove that 'x' group is brutally exploiting 'y' victim-group.
(the last trick was popular with both Communists, and Fascists, with the result of the Georgian Genocide and the Holocaust as blazing examples of the typical end-state.)
One of the prime reasons for freedom of speech is to expose the dickheads, creeps, and manipulators to public scrutiny, so that they and their followers may be identified clearly by the rest of us as what they, in fact are.
When it suppressed by official means (laws, for instance), what happens is that your problem does NOT go away, it festers in secret, poisoning not only the racist feeps, but those who would oppose them, sine they re not readily identified and paranoia can thus grow. This un-does actual work toward racial and ethnic harmony, and promotes the division of society into warring factions grasping for power, rather than citizens working toward a common good (whether through altruism, or enlightened self-interest. Civil wars and Racial Strife are bad for everyone in the long run.)
The short-term benefits of course, of racial strife include expanding government and using it to redistribute wealth in an effort to pursue some ephemeral "Social Justice" ideal.
This is, imho, a bad bargain. If you trust the government with ALL your resources, you should maybe ask an Indian if the Government is trustworthy and keeps its bargains in good faith.
34 - Irene Athena
Dan, I'm not afraid of Blacks taking over the United States. No way the Asians are going to let that happen.
Seriously, if you look at some of the later Bell-Curvy (2008) type research, which examines IQ data world-wide, you find Asians consistently outperform
35 - Irene Athena
outperform whites. And who owns most of the US debt?
If Whites, Blacks, Indians (continental and Native American), and Asians who live here can't figure out how to stop the "who's the smartest" "who has been the most oppressed" "you don't like my presidents color that's why you're disagreeing with economic and foreign policy" CRAP, the United States is finished.
36 - Irene Athena
Dan, that is my minus-two-standard-deviations way of saying, "I think #33 makes a lot of sense." Done talking about race for...weeks and weeks, I hope. Have a good spring.
37 - Dan
"see, dan, you think that the lack of a white majority in this country will create "the end of the white race.""---zingzing
Nonsense, I was asking Irene if she regarded *your* stated ideal of ending the white race as something she would seek clarification on. just as she sought clarification on my use of the term "genetic determinism".
38 - Dan
"When will we truly learn to look beyond skin color in our great country? It will be then and only then that America will indeed reach her fullest potential."---Ronald Weathersby
This platitude illustrates the kind of muddled thinking that so often accompanies discussions of race. Looking "beyond skin color" would mean dismantling the entire civil rights edifice. The racist preference structure so central to the Democrat party.
Indeed, if Ronald truly wanted to look "beyond skin color" he couldn't have written this article. Critisism of a President he notices to be black by tea partiers he notices to be "mostly white" is the central reason for his charge of racism.
39 - Dan
"Seriously, if you look at some of the later Bell-Curvy (2008) type research, which examines IQ data world-wide, you find Asians consistently outperform"---Irene
So then, you are familiar with some of the research on IQ data. Careful with that stuff. It's very upsetting to some people.
"Genetic determinism" refers to whatever portion of group differentials, not just intelligence, that is inherent to the group. It is the "nature" part of the "nature vs nurture" argument. That's all.
The Elizabeth Wright article I refered you to didn't address genetic determinism, It was far more interesting: an intellectual black womans take on the massive psychological abuse of whites that permeates society.
I would still be interested in hearing what you think of it. But I understand if you find talking race uncomfortable. That is what the brainwashing is intended to do...for whites.
40 - zingzing
"#12 Simple, I base my argument on your first defense of the President-that his critics are all a bunch of white-supremacy racists right off of Stormfront and the Aryan Nations."
funny. that's EXACTLY what i'd thought you'd say and proves my point. why don't you go look at what i wrote again? all you can see if race this race that. so cut it out. you're as bad as what you criticize. in fact, you are what you criticize.
"I base it on the reflexive attempts to paint groups like the TEA Party (who formed in opposition to GW Bush's poisonous bailout policies) as an arm of the KKK and ANP."
even the kkk doesn't want to be associated with the tea party.
41 - zingzing
dan: "Nonsense, I was asking Irene if she regarded *your* stated ideal of ending the white race"
put on your reading glasses, dan. or maybe you're hallucinating. i never wrote anything close to that, that's just what your racism leads you to believe. you really do see threats to your poor white race from around every corner. you are so damn frightened.
"the massive psychological abuse of whites that permeates society."
oh, for fuck's sake. what fucking pity party is this? take your banky and go to your room, dan.
42 - Irene Athena
I'm not uncomfortable talking about race, Dan. I'm TIRED of talking about race.
I'm tired of talking about race with Glenn.
I'm tired of talking about race with ZingZing.
I'm tired of talking about race with you.
Couldn't help but notice that you couldn't bring yourself to finish this quote: "Seriously, if you look at some of the later Bell-Curvy (2008) type research, which examines IQ data world-wide, you find Asians consistently outperform..."
Asians outperform whites. PWNED!
43 - Dan
"Couldn't help but notice that you couldn't bring yourself to finish this quote:"---Irene
I cut and pasted it from your #34, exactly the way you left it. I'm quite aware of asians outperforming whites. I'm comfortable with any truth. What does PWNED mean?
Irene, if you're tired of talking about it, simply stop. No need to abandon civility.
44 - Irene Athena
You haven't told me what you mean by
"genetic determinism." I don't have to tell you what I mean by pwned.
Yes, tired. Good night.
45 - zingzing
i think we can all figure out what he means by "genetic determinism." but if he'd like to explain it, all the better.
46 - Dan
I think we can all figure out what I and everyone who's ever used the term mean by it if we look at comment #39, where I cheerfully defined it.
I'll assume "PWNED" is not a nice thing to say.
"put on your reading glasses, dan. or maybe you're hallucinating. i never wrote anything close to that, that's just what your racism leads you to believe. you really do see threats to your poor white race from around every corner. you are so damn frightened."---zingzing
Don't need reading glasses yet zingzing. It's not surprising you don't remember, you can't even remember what you said in your nasty tantrum that was deleted for personal attacks. And that was much more recent.
the incident I recall, you and pals were fantasizing how humans will eventually get rid of whitey, and everyone will be one homogonously brown race. And that would be swell. Sorta Hitlerian, only the master race isn't white. Your strategy for achieving this was to encourage miscegenation. You then made the cringe inducing boast that your last three recent sexual conquests were women of color. Does that ring a bell?
Seriously though, I didn't mean to put you in a bad light. I just assumed that you were as open and honest about your desire for the destruction of the white race as I am about my desire to preserve it.
47 - zingzing
you need to put on your reading glasses, your thinking cap and insert your memory card, dan. this incident you recall was clearly tongue in cheek. you didn't get it then, and even when you were told, you still didn't get it. get it this time:
"the incident I recall, you and pals were fantasizing how humans will eventually get rid of whitey, and everyone will be one homogonously brown race. And that would be swell."
i understand that sarcasm and hyperbole can be a little hard to grasp online. the context of what you read was how will the human race ever get rid of racism. in that context, i wrote that the surest way would be for there to be only one race. i then referenced conquering aliens (extraterrestrials) in that context, as you'll note they usually seem to be very homogeneous. (if the aliens didn't tip you off to the rather silly nature of my "fuck those most different from us and eventually meld into one super-race," i really don't know how to help. you're obviously not supposed to take that seriously. the fact that it seems like a possibility is troubling. it's like you're running away from a lord of the rings screening screaming "HOBBITS AREN'T REAL!!!!")
at the time, you said, "As the comments here about how true racial strife will only be cured by eliminating the white race..."
which is much like you're doing here. you took something that was clearly tongue in cheek, and not about "eliminating the white race," but about eliminating RACISM, and decided that all us "progressives" want nothing more than the end of the white race. why only the white race? you didn't seem to notice that everyone was included. very strange, that. so defensive.
and here you are doing it again. YOU SAW SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT THERE. get it? i told you this in the thread you are referencing. i really don't know how to make this clear to you.
as for the "cringe inducing boast" about "sexual conquests," here it is: "two out of the last three women i've seriously dated have been mixed." oh lord. women are fainting at the vulgarity. so why do you cringe? is it the miscegenation? or did you go and misremember something?
"I just assumed that you were as open and honest about your desire for the destruction of the white race as I am about my desire to preserve it."
you were wrong. do you understand that now?
48 - zingzing
and just to be clear, the context for my "two out of the last three..." comment was doug hunter's comment: "I don't just talk the talk, I've done my part for the melding (how else am I to know I'm not marrying a distant cousin but to go outside the race!)"
49 - zingzing
you can see the entire exchange here.
50 - Dr Dreadful
"Genetic determinism" refers to whatever portion of group differentials, not just intelligence, that is inherent to the group. It is the "nature" part of the "nature vs nurture" argument. That's all.
Exactly. That is all. It means genetically-determined details; small variations in human populations. So, for example, black people tend to have dark skin (hello!), can suffer from sickle-cell anaemia, are disproportionately prone to diabetes, strokes etc; Askenazi Jews have a high incidence of Tay-Sachs disease; Slavs tend to be tall; and so on.
But there's no reason to attach any particular significance to any of these traits than there is to attach significance to the gene that gives some people detached earlobes, or enables them to curl their tongues.
Bottom line, we're all the same species. All this "my race can beat up your race" stuff is so much bollocks.
51 - Dan
zingzing, There's no need to rehash. I only referenced it as a thought experiment for Irene. Just joking around or not, the sentiment exists.
I didn't take exception to the notion at the time either. (And clearly stated so.) I'm for complete freedom of association and complete freedom of thought. The only point I even made then is that the acknowledgement that racism could only ever be eliminated by melding into homogenity is an admission that diversity, at least in this one aspect, is a source of conflict, not strength.
52 - zingzing
"I only referenced it as a thought experiment for Irene."
well, here's a thought experiment for you. why did your mind immediately jump to the defense of the white race, when every race would be effected by such an attempt?
(and also, you're clearly backpeddling, but, that's ok. "cringe inducing" indeed. speaking of, did you just misremember the "sexual conquests" thing that never was, or did you do it on purpose, or was it the miscegenation that caused the cringe?)
"diversity, at least in this one aspect, is a source of conflict, not strength."
like all things human, it has its pluses and minuses. and we'll always find something to fight about. pre-diversity, we came across africa, we raped and pillaged it. we "discovered" the mayans and aztecs and we encroached on native american lands, so we slaughtered them. we found china and india and we made them our drugged-up servants. oh, but they were just heathens and savages. and we've stopped being such savages as well. right? maybe it's just harder to subjugate other races when they are an integral part of our society.
53 - zingzing
"zingzing, There's no need to rehash."
yeah, dan, there was. you lied through your teeth. and i'm quite free to point out what was actually said. do you have a problem with that?
54 - Dan
"why did your mind immediately jump to the defense of the white race, when every race would be effected by such an attempt?"
Because I think of my race first, and it's normal and healthy. Why not you question why you think something's wrong with that? I don't overlook that fact.
"or was it the miscegenation that caused the cringe?)"
dig deeper zing, admittedly it was a snide remark, but I was actually thinking of the type of woman, not race, that I thought would be attracted to what I think of you as. sorry for that.
"maybe it's just harder to subjugate other races when they are an integral part of our society."
It's easy for many people to consciously avoid examining that integration has always needed to be forced.
"i'm quite free to point out what was actually said. do you have a problem with that?"
No, not at all. I'm always glad for the contrast.
55 - Dan
"we came across africa, we raped and pillaged it. we "discovered" the mayans and aztecs and we encroached on native american lands, so we slaughtered them. we found china and india and we made them our drugged-up servants."
Really really screwed up. who's this "we"? I don't see any slaughtered Indians. If you've been slaughtering Indians, turn yourself in.
56 - zingzing
"it's normal and healthy."
you think of your race first, and it's normal and healthy? why not think of shared american society, or our shared humanity? we're talking about ending racism and you start railing about the doom of the white race. do you not see the problem?
"It's easy for many people to consciously avoid examining that integration has always needed to be forced."
huh. i don't recall the national guard coming out when i moved to this predominantly puerto-rican/dominican neighborhood. some people are quite happy living around other races, and have no problem with it. you, on the other hand, are a racist.
"I was actually thinking of the type of woman, not race, that I thought would be attracted to what I think of you as."
wow. what a prickish thing to say. want me to talk about the type of woman i'd imagine you coming out of? no? you are low.
57 - zingzing
"who's this "we"?"
the white race, before all this terrible diversity, when no one (no one human anyway,) ever got hurt and we of the pure white blood could walk where we pleased. but you knew that.
58 - Jordan Richardson
Dan, why celebrate, uphold or uplift a fact about yourself (your race) you had nothing to do with?
59 - Irene Athena
It would be great if blacks and whites could celebrate one another's blackness and whiteness. Blacks celebrate black history month, go to churches that are specifically called, by them, Black Churches, have developed a Kwanza holiday to keep alive some of the traditions of Africa. Soul food. Drumming rituals.
"Celebrations of pure whiteness" include various European ethnic festivals that feature curiously attired people (in liederhosen and such), accordian music, and plenty of beer. Celtic music and dancing--that's another way whites celebrate their roots. Bluegrass music, another celebration of whiteness--something beautiful that comes from the culture of the American redneck hillbilly .
People celebrate the distinctives of the people(s) whose blood runs through their veins. Why not? And you can join -- as a guest at a wedding does--in the celebrations of other families of the world, other races.
Jazz is a bridge between the celebration of whiteness and blackness. The Cotton Club was one of the first places whites and blacks celebrated together in America.
I've always been warmly welcomed and "made a fuss of" when I visit Black churches, and I really am glad there are separate black churches to keep their distinctive forms of Gospel music and worship alive and authentic. I don't know how many blacks really feel welcome at the St. Patrick's Day parade in certain parts of Boston for instance. I think that's a shame.
60 - Irene Athena
...and I DO mean that bit o' twee in #59, but I'm STILL TIRED OF TALKING ABOUT RACE.
61 - Irene Athena
If I want to talk about Ron Paul and the Fed, nope, nope, nope, someone makes me talk about race instead.
62 - Irene Athena
I want to get discussions started questioning the endless war on terror, but nope nope nope, SOMEBODY's decided that we're gonna be talking about race instead, because, I need to be reminded, for the umpteempth time, that there were these newsletters thirty years ago...
63 - Irene Athena
*So* very tired of it. I need to go ask my husband to play some Scott Joplin for me on the piano. He has one very old original book of sheet music, which Scott Joplin has annotated this way:
Strain 1 - "Panic in Wall Street, Brokers feeling melancholy".
Strain 2 - "Good times coming"
Strain 3 - "Good times have come"
Strain 4 - "Listening to the strains of genuine negro ragtime, brokers forget their cares".
64 - Christopher Rose
Irene: some questions -
If you are tired of talking about race, why did you come back to the site and bring it up again?
Why do you even consider black or white meaningful terms? People with dark coloured skin are originally from areas of the planet where it is hotter; people with pale skin from areas of relatively low sunlight.
Africa isn't a specific place, it is an entire continent with more than 50 countries and is more than three times the size of the USA.
There is no coherent black identity, just as there is no coherent white identity.
To reject more of your lazy stereotypes, not all people with black skin go to church; nor do they all celebrate Black History Month.
Similarly, "various European ethnic festivals that feature curiously attired people (in liederhosen and such), accordian music, and plenty of beer. Celtic music and dancing... [and] Bluegrass music" are not "Celebrations of pure whiteness".
Sheesh!
65 - Irene Athena
Sorry, Christopher Rose. I'm tired of talking about race.
66 - Irene Athena
Besides, the discussion is kind of an American thang, you wouldn't understand.
67 - Irene Athena
(Okay I got up early to get some more work done, popped in thinking I'd have the dang place to myself I'm finished not not talking about race.Goodbye again.)
68 - Irene Athena
Christopher Rose, well. It looks like you didn't accuse me of being incoherent. Thank you. I mean that. Now, so you will have the proper context for understanding #66, there was a time (can it REALLY be more than a decade or so ago?), when a certain kind of racist black would say to a certain kind of white (such as myself) who just wanted to be all-cross-cultural and why-can't-we-all-get-alongish:
"It's a black thing; you wouldn't understand."
Part of the emotional affirmative action plan, I guess. Maybe through the positive influence of Black Churches they cut that crap the heck out. And yes, in America, the influence of the Black Church is quite significant, politically as well as other ways. Certainly musically. In fact, you probably wouldn't have had the Beatles if you hadn't had Black Gospel.
Now (maybe) you can appreciate the irony of the way (#66) I tried to tell you the following: while your remarks about blacks on a global scale are spot-on, this discussion is about
race relations between blacks and whites in America, still strained because of our history, which, unlike the UK's enlightenment vis a vis race, did NOT include a bitter civil war, whose effects still linger.
69 - Irene Athena
...um....which unlike the UK's journey toward enlightenment vis a vis race, DID include a bitter Civil War, etc. etc.
All right. Will read responses, if any, much later.
70 - Christopher Rose
So, to summarise; you're tired of talking about race but came to the site and started talking about race.
Then you post a load of remarks full of lazy stereotypes and inaccuracies.
You follow that up with saying - again - that you are tired of talking about race and then you make a racist remark directly to me, followed by a load of inaccurate, patronising nonsense.
Hmm...
71 - S.T..M
So, good doctor, if blacks are from hotter places, are white-skinned anglo-European Aussies all going to turn black, eventually? Will it start in Queensland and head south, and be curtailed by the cold Victorian and Tasmanian winters. Will we be a two-tone nation instead of a 20-tone nation?
I'm fascinated by the idea that white anglo-celtic-European Aussies spend most of their time trying to get brown skin, when all they have to do is ... absolutely nothing, except stay here and let evolution take its inevitable course.
Amazing.
The rednecks and bogans will be telling their kids to stay indoors.
72 - Irene Athena
"Lazy stereotypes." I cannot communicate with this man. It's impossible. I give up.
73 - Christopher Rose
Stan, I'm no doctor, nor am I dreadful! You're probably just taking the mickey but yes, given enough time for evolution to kick in, pale skinned folk in hot climates will turn blacker.
Irene: "I cannot communicate". There, fixed it for you!
74 - handyguy
Christopher frequently says the smartest things in a thread, but some people [Dave Nalle, Irene] have an immediate allergic reaction. It's too bad.
75 - Cindy
19 - The new American National Anthem.
The new t-shirt slogan.