He has this to say on the subject of marriage:
The anti-gay marriage initiative, often taking the form of defining marriage as a covenant between one man and one woman, is an interesting case. For many of us the conventional marital arrangement is what Jesus refers to when he talks about how a man and a woman shall leave their families and join together as one flesh.This is a crucial point. The moral values here are love and fidelity. How could "between a man and a woman only" possibly be considered a "value"? It is a preference—a way in which some would prefer to see the ideals of love and fidelity restricted—but one that can't possibly rise to the same moral level as the values themselves.It is curious, however ... that there are very few models for modern marriage in the Bible. Adam and Eve aren’t it. Abraham, Sarah, and the concubines aren’t it. David and Bathsheba don’t help us. Jesus says precious little about it. And Paul advises it because it is better than burning in Hell ... So, marriage of any form is not a major theme in the scriptures.
Of course, in the Roman Catholic Church marriage is forbidden for the clergy and the religious sisters. It is a lesser state, somehow, than being “married” to Christ....
So, there are some “variations on a theme” that ought to caution us from being too hasty to make blanket pronouncements. I think that we can agree that there is great value in monogamous relationships of loving commitment. I consider that a Christian ideal. The fact that some same-sex couples have demonstrated such a covenantal love has been part of my learning over the years. I am interested in us finding ways to encourage such fidelity rather than discouraging it.
His comments on abortion aren't based on scripture (they couldn't be, as abortion is never once mentioned in the Bible), referring instead to his concept of the universality of Christian tradition:
Undoubtedly, life in some form begins at [conception], and it remains very precious life in all the subsequent forms of development. However, in the past our culture has not treated such nascent forms as full human existence, otherwise we would have established laws that declare every miscarriage as a death, requiring that a name be given, a death registered, and in a religious context, a funeral or memorial service held. No, we might think of a miscarriage as a “loss in the family” because it is death to a certain hope, but it is not considered the death of a viable human life....[T]o assert that there is only one “Christian” way to think about it simply is wrong since Christians think several ways about it.If abortion is murder, as some would have it, then why isn't miscarriage death? Why not require death certificates? This is a telling inconsistency for a group that prides itself on the infallibility of its source of reasoning.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Dave Nalle
>>The slander that liberals in America are frothing-at-the-mouth atheists who "despise" Christ <<
The problem is that there are enough liberals who this description DOES fit that extreme religious conservatives can make their case and have facts to back it up. If the Democratic party was full of religiously neutral moderates and nothing else then they'd have a lot more friends.
The same can be said from the opposite perspective. There are just enough bible-thumping nutjobs in the Republican party that Democrats can claim the party is being dominated by Neocons or religious extremists and point to examples to support their position.
The truth is that neither party is dominated by these extremist factions and I imagine that most Republicans and most Democrats would like their more extreme brethren to silently fall in a deep hole and never be seen again.
Dave
2 - Deb
Very well said (both Pete's post and Dave's comment).
3 - Steve S
I'm betting you can find more and more people who would accept your challenge. In fact, this sentiment seems to have been going on for awhile.
4 - josh
Read it and weep.
Rev 3:16 Since you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to spit you out of my mouth.
5 - Dave Nalle
And how is spitting us out of your mouth going to help build viable political coalitions again?
The words of the Bible are for guiding us to the next world and for governing our individual lives, not for forming national policy to be imposed on other people, you ignorant fascist twit.
Dave
6 - Shark
Shark's Nightly Prayer:
"Kill all the fundamentalists!
Kill all of the dogmatists!
Kill all the fanatics!
Kill all the facists!"
7 - Dave Nalle
And kill all the people who can't SPELL f-a-s-c-i-s-t.
Dave
8 - Diet Doc
Referring to Rev. William Sloane Coffin, Jr. as a "liberal" is much akin to calling Dan Rather a journalist. Sloane was and is a fanatic liberal of the most vile sort. As to whether he is "righteous," I can not comment. But, aside from that dissent, your piece does have merit. Radicals on both ends of the political spectrum are best kept howling to each other in separate caves. But, they do have a purpose; as someone once said, without the radical extremists, how will we know where the middle ground lies?
9 - Pete Blackwell
I'd hardly call Coffin "vile." He's best known as a principled pacifist whose theology is informed by Reinhold Niebuhr.
He was an anti-communist who worked for the CIA in the 50s trying to overthrow Stalin. He was a civil rights activist who was involved in the Freedom Rides in the early 60s.
So far, so good, right?
He was against the Vietnam war and helped draft dodgers and conscientious objectors avoid service. That's what pacifists did.
In the 80s he was active in the anti nuclear weapons movement.
Doesn't seem so vile to me.
Now, Ted Rall and Michael Moore are a different story, but I don't think Rev. Coffin belongs in that group.
10 - Diet Doc
Pete,
I stand corrected. I was not as informed about Rev. Coffin as I should have been - expecially before throwing him into the "vile" category. I should be more (should that be Moore?) selective for that group. The whole point of my comments was that I know what you are saying to say and I agree with it. We need much more discussion and much less shouting. We share a great deal of ideas and hopes as Americans and to lump us into "liberal" or "conservative" is artificial as best. Labels only divide us and keep us from exploring the things we hold in common. There is enough fanaticism in the Middle East to last the world, at large, for some time to come. We don't need it here.
11 - andy marsh
Especially when leaders from one side say things like, "I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for".
12 - Steve S
what leader says that Andy? Source please?
13 - Tim Hall
Rev 3:16 Since you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to spit you out of my mouth.
John of Patmos was the prototype for an Internet blowhard, wasn't he.
OTT it may be, but non-fundamentalist Christians do need to proclaim their faith as strongly as the religious right do. And they mustn't be afraid to challenge the Religious Right's heresies, starting with Premillenial Dispensationalism, the west's equivalent to Saudi Wahhabism.
14 - Mark Saleski
Source please?
drudge
15 - Steve S
no, no. A legitimate source.
16 - Mark Saleski
rush?
17 - Tim Hall
Rush?
One of the Priests of the Temple of Syrinx?
18 - Steve S
no, no, a legitimate source.
19 - Eric Olsen
bold reasonable and thought-provoking post, I especially like the point about miscarriages, never thought of that before. The reasonable center will always be larger but less vehement and visible, the "silent majority" aren't really silent but they are, by definition, far less incensed than the enraged ends. But the middle is where the real action is, where things actually happen as opposed to simply screaming about it.
20 - Jan Dillon
I have never believed in a god nor do I believe that Jesus was ever anything else but a political attivist and as such was put to death as all law-breakers were at that time. Religion has enslaved our world and has been used as a tool by those chasing great power and wealth. I have to confirm that I abore abortion and any deprevation of life including the deaths that the american government have caused off-shore in many foreign countries. The american public are fools who spend their time playing as children. This ignorance is encouraged by those who wish to steal the wealth in other countries. The world is split by religion deliberatley. How can I, who does not have a religious belief live by a set of rules that mean no harm for human beings and wish it only knowledge and success and be a non christian. Call me what you will and you will but I will never move from my stand that each country has the right to live for what they believe in and that christians are as sheep who give up their right as individuals and to prosper from what NATURE has given. You are all hypocrits. I have just heard on our news that the western world attacked Iraq to free the people of that country when that is a lie and this from christians. We, the wagging tail of the barking dog, were told that the war was to get rid of weapons of mass destruction. The war was to get the tax payers of the countries that participated in the war and die for those who had planned it for many years including 911, to pay taxes so that the oil barrons could reap the rewards and arent they huge. Also the makers of war weapons. CHRISTIANS or idiots, sheep baaa baa. I refuse to be an idiot, your government's idiot who profess to be what you all like to desribe as christians. Personally I am an educated (by nature) intelligent person and would not like to be termed as a CHRISTIAN. I do not agree with homosexuality but only because nature does also. It was once said in my presence "all here are christians" I said "I'm am not a christian as all christians are manipulated fools" and "how dare they put that assumption on my head" as I resented being cast as a sheep. Go on believing in Christianity and go to your wars and make your subjects unintelligent idiots but don't impose it on those of intellect. The powers use religion do not themselves believe it but will use it and it is brilliant as it has enslaved the people as has all religion. BELIEF IN ONE'S SELF is the true knowledge. Man was not made in a God's image. God that you speak of was made in man's image and made by men of power.
21 - Oneil McQuick
Much of what is said here is out of order or needs lots of clarifying. For undisputed truth on the matter and Christianity itself, read the articles, magazines, etc on threeq.com or the books on the following link:
http://groups.msn.com/accommunity/special.msnw
Just copy and paste.
22 - Dave Nalle
Now I knew that if we waited long enough we could attract both the loony offensive atheists AND the loony offensive fundamentalists. Congratulations guys, now drop the cage and let them tear each other to shreds!
Dave
23 - andy marsh
From Southcoasttoday.com "I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for, but I admire the discipline in their organization," Said Dean, later adding, "The way to win elections is to have a good system."
It took me a little while to find the quote on a site that everyone wouldn't scream was politically biased towards the right. It is on Newsmax and Rightwing news. Newsmax quotes the NY Daily News, but I couldn't find it there.
24 - Pete Blackwell
Heh heh. I worked at the NY Daily News for 3 years. On the website. I'm not too surprised you can't find it there ;) But seriously, they have a paid archive like the NY Times, so you'll have to pay to read their article.
Good choice on sources, by the way. The Daily News is well known to be a mainstream Democratic paper (Mort Zuckerman, the chairman & publisher, can be seen on TV as a commentator from the left). They're kind of a balance to the right-wing NY Post.
As to Howard Dean, who cares what he says? I'm sure we could find a republican who says the same thing about the other side. If Dean's position were the Dems' official policy, that would be another thing. He's just a hothead, as everyone knows.
25 - Eric Olsen
just keep the flammable materials away from the loon-nexus