I feel like I've written all these words before, but the lotus eaters still are not listening.
"We have to understand that we're fighting a war against people who think that they are engaged in a cosmic battle between the forces of good and evil. They believe that this is not an earthly battle. This is a war between the forces of Christianity and the forces of Islam." - Reza Aslan…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - moonraven
handyguy: Right on!
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
27 - Christopher Rose
moonraven, i hope you're pleased to have found a couple of like-minded folk on the site. Not that two swallows make a summer of course but at least you're not alone. Now how about working on that civility?
28 - Christopher Rose
Personally, I disagree with the title, underlying presumptions, ongoing reasoning and conclusions of this article, but it is just some bloke's opinion, nothing more.
29 - moonraven
My persona doesn't practice civility.
It was designed specifically to reflect the climate of uncivilized brawling that is the norm of this site.
I prefer to be alone. Since Garbo died in 1990 I can be full practitioner of that statement.
30 - Christopher Rose
Well, it could certainly use the practice, ma'am!
You're also wrong about the climate of this site, it's civilized brawling!
Are you actually alone? I've been wondering why you never talk about the father of your daughter.
*Dons protective armour, ducks and covers*
31 - moonraven
The father of my daughter died in January of 2006.
32 - Lumpy
Some good discussion here until Moonraven showed up and started spreading her special brand of hate.
Her extremism diminishes some of the good points handyguy has to make. By being on the same side she reduces his and all liberals credibility substantially.
Handyguy is clearly well intentioned, but terribly ignorant about islamic society and how pervasive a passive jihadism really is. Just look at Iran. a strong majority of the population voted a jihadist government into office in full awareness of who and what they were voting for. jihad was their entire campaign platform.
33 - moonraven
Lumpy, I spend time each year working in the Middle East, and am considerably more knowledgable about its culture than anyone else on this site.
Especially by comparison to an untravlled troglodite like you.
34 - Christopher Rose
I'm sorry to hear that, my condolences, for what it's worth.
Lumpy, why don't you try and lead by example. You too are somewhat naive, in my opinion.
Now play nice, kids, I'm off to watch the far more important conflict of England v Russia.
35 - moonraven
I'm sure that his ashes in the urn could not possibly care less about your condolences.
He was as anti-Brit as I am.
36 - Clavos
You keep 'em in an urn?
How quaint!
We keep my mother's ashes in a cardboard box in a storage locker.
She doesn't care, either.
37 - moonraven
I, personally, would have sprinkled him at his favorite Pacific Ocean beach by now.--the least I could have done.
Unfortunately, he and the urn are in Wife Number 3's closet.
Apparently, she doesn't care either.
38 - bliffle
What nonsense this article is. 9/11 was committed by vandals who used ideological drunkenness to hype their slaves into committing crimes. Not much different from the way that Karl Rove psychs up gay-haters, commie-haters, black-haters, peacenik-haters, hippie-haters and other aberrant characters into going to the polls so they can cast votes for GWB at the same time.
And we all know it.
GWB broke his vow to catch or kill OBL (another broken vow by GWB, where will it end? ) because OBL is more valuable to the cynics managing GWB to have OBL loose as a boogeyman than to have him gone.
How cynical can you get?
39 - JustOneMan
moon..
"geee senior in your country (USA) I clean toilets...but in my country I am a highly respected university professor and a journalist." Guillermo Almey as he was cleaning toilets at a Taco Bell somewhere in mid town Manhattan..
JOM
40 - moonraven
Yep, definitely not high class enough for a firing squad, JOM: I think typing you to the back of Nalle's pickup and dragging you at high speeds through the trailer parks of West Texas is a much more fitting end.
BTW: I am semi-retired now, but made a much higher salary here in Mexico than you could even HOPE to receive in the US.
The president of Mexico is not the highest-paid president in the world for nothing....
41 - Baronius
Dave, excellent article. If you feel like you've said all this before, don't worry. These are the right things to say to mark an anniversary.
42 - moonraven
An anniversary of WHAT--your gullibility?
I wouldn't blow out those candles quite so fast.
43 - Baronius
You wouldn't blow out the candles on my gullibility? What, because my gullibility is younger or older?
44 - moonraven
On your anniversary cake, moron.
You know, the one with 9/11 written in thermite on the top....
45 - Baronius
What? The cake is made of thermite, so you want it to keep burning?
46 - Baronius
Or should I want to keep the cake burning? Or put it out? What's the analogy here?
47 - moonraven
Try blowing out the candles, moron.
See what happens.
48 - Baronius
OK. Walk me through this one more time.
49 - moonraven
You don't seem to see anything.
No one is more blind than he who chooses not to see.
I am off to the hammock for another beautiful Mexican evening.
50 - Baronius
No, please; it's the anniversary of my gullibility, and there's a cake with thermite letters on it, and I shouldn't blow them out? Why? Shouldn't you blow on thermite? As far as I know, thermite requires a fuse, but are the candles fuses? So I should blow them out, or the cake will explode, right?
51 - Matthew T. Sussman
See, Baronius, the cake is cursed. (That's bad)
But it comes with your choice of toppings! (That's good!)
The toppings contain potassium benzoate.
...
...
That's bad.
52 - Clavos
Nice work, Baronius!!
The Heifetz of BC; play on, B-Man.
Props to you; you da man!!
53 - Zedd
Dave
Thank you for extrapolating on which THEY you are referring to and what qualities you are alluding to.
I would also be careful not to ascribe that world view to all of THEM.
I think European decedents like yourself often see themselves to be different from humanity and end up making some offensive mistakes which disturb the stability of the planet. People just want to be respected. Period.
54 - SonnyD
I wish those European 'decedents' would stop disturbing the stability of the planet.
55 - SonnyD
Zedd: decedent (used mainly in law) a deceased person
56 - Lumpy
Candles can't actually generate enough heat to detonate thermite.
57 - gonzo marx
well well, Pravda lives!
this appears to be one of the more skillful bits of hate filled misinformative propaganda it's ever been my chagrin to have read
let's have a look, shall we?
"We have lost our instinctual understanding that we were not attacked by just an isolated group of crazed fanatics or their latter-day old man of the mountain leader, but by an entire culture which can produce men who believe that the slaughter of innocents can buy their way into heaven."
here's the beginnings of the attempt to redefine Reality and frame it to suit the purpose of pure partisan propaganda...note the tossing aside of what actually happened and shifting of emotional blame from the criminals who actually planned and perpetrated the heinous crime to an entire culture indiscriminately...this is used as if it were an axiomatic postulate to base the rest of the "reasoning" upon...
garbage in/garbage out, imo
"Even while we forget our anger and the principles our founders fought for, they remember every wrong done by every crusader and missionary and colonialist down the ages, nurture their hurt and keep it until they can strike back at us, unexpected and with horrific results."
this one is interesting in that the entirety of bin Laden/al Qaeda's stated reasoning is about grievances which have occurred in the last generation or two...almost all of it centered around U.S. military bases within Islamic countries
one might suggest finding the root of where the problem comes from...as the root of the neocons lies with Strauss...the root of al Qaeda , and all of the new radical "jihadist" movement, comes from Sayyid Qutb of Egypt and his book, "Milestones"... in there are the teachings and redefinitions which inspired bin Laden and his ilk...more than Wahabism, the message contained in this work lays out the entirety of the modern jihadist movement
which leads us to...
"While Sunni and Shia squabble in Iraq, we need to understand that what they are fighting over is the question of which of them will get to guide the destiny of Islam and which of them will get to come after us when that struggle is over."
completely laughable..like the dhimmi comment that accompanied it...to even attempt to claim with a straight face that Western culture is endangered of being taken over by Islam due to any kind of Force being applied is completely ludicrous from a military logistical viewpoint , if nothing else
any danger of this nature would be from cultural assimilation, now try to imagine some Irishman or Los Angeleno or Georgian(either kind) or a very Catholic Costa Rican....on and on... "submitting" to a second class citizenship in any kind of theocratic tyranny...just ain't happening...NO danger of it, just about physically impossible to accomplish...300 million armed Americans are insurmountable in such circumstances...now how about 800 million Indians or a billion Chinese? neither of those cultures are in any kind of danger either...and both have had to deal with Muslim populations for as long as there has been Islam
the big bullshit fallacy here is the attempted conflation of saying or implying that 9/11 has ANYFUCKINGTHING to do with Iraq ...in any way, shape or form...
such assertions are factually incorrect, attempted emotional terrorism/blackmail, and bereft of all ethical considerations... just my one sixth billionths of the World's opinion...
your mileage may vary
Excelsior?
58 - Mooja
Nice article Dave. The $450 trillion dollar question is: How do we put the beast down?
We could do nothing and get repeated 9/11’s or worse. Or we could do something. How do we cultivate an Arab cradle that doesn’t tend to churn out thousands of young men each year whose sole fixation is directed at delivering mass destruction to unbelievers?
The coalition nations believe that first and foremost you need Arab governments that serve their governed. What we look forward to is an Iraq that follows this model.
59 - Clavos
"this one is interesting in that the entirety of bin Laden/al Qaeda's stated reasoning is about grievances which have occurred in the last generation or two...almost all of it centered around U.S. military bases within Islamic countries"
Fair enough, gonzo, but why would you believe even one word OBL or anyone associated with Al-Qaeda (or for that matter, any person or entity engaged in fighting or even opposing us) utters?
Why would you think they're telling the truth?
"...any danger of this nature [islamic cultures taking over the US] would be from cultural assimilation..."
Agreed, that's probably how it will happen, if it does.
"now try to imagine some Irishman or Los Angeleno or Georgian(either kind) or a very Catholic Costa Rican....on and on... "submitting" to a second class citizenship in any kind of theocratic tyranny...just ain't happening...NO danger of it, just about physically impossible to accomplish...300 million armed Americans are insurmountable in such circumstances...now how about 800 million Indians or a billion Chinese? neither of those cultures are in any kind of danger either...and both have had to deal with Muslim populations for as long as there has been Islam"
OK, the Chinese and Indian cultures are not hamstrung by such niceties as "all men are created equal" and the Bill of Rights plus a modern, politically correct tendency in the US to regard any culture and/or philosophy as being equal to, and as valid as any other. This attitude leads us to allow cab drivers to refuse to carry passengers with alcohol, and install footbaths in public institutions, both ideas I doubt either the Chinese or Indian cultures would accept, at least not in the name of equality.
After 9/11, which, unless you believe George Bush did it, taught us that we are a target and are likely to remain one for the foreseeable future, we MUST deal with and defend against terrorism.
Yet we won't even profile.
It may take several generations, but they WILL win. Why? Because they're serious about kicking our ass, and we don't believe they can.
Remember, they conquered the Iberian Peninsula and it took the Christian Spaniards almost 800 years to kick them out.
60 - Lumpy
Wow. Talk about trying to redefine reality. You're doing a bit of it your own self there gonzo. There's nothing neocon in this article and no noticable attempt to connect 9/11 to iraq yet you drag in those old straw dogs instead of addressing what it's really about. You need to get off the partisan hate train and take a look at what's really going on in the world.
Whether they can really bring us to our knees or conquer us or not, that is our stated intent and even if they make some opportunistic statements about israel and oil, the fanatical millenialist agenda is still there and still driving it all. Complaints about israel are to bin laden what claims of WMDs are to Bush.
61 - gonzo marx
well do i know the history of Iberia et al, Clavos
do also remember that it was the tri-partite city of Toledo, and the multi-cultural scholars residing there that ended the "Dark Ages" by not only returning lost tomes from the Greeks and others, but adding from their own Muslim and Jewish learning/texts
but i digress...
"After 9/11, which, unless you believe George Bush did it, taught us that we are a target and are likely to remain one for the foreseeable future, we MUST deal with and defend against terrorism."
nothing to argue about there, but HOW we go about it IS the crux of the Argument, ain't it?
you admit the most likely is culturally..and i retort, it's the very real core Values of our Constitution that are all that require defending along with physical security...to win that very struggle, it is imperative that not an iota of those Principles can be compromised....or we lose, by definition
as usual, the Means are the Ends, in and of themselves, instrinsically...
as for OBL...who says i believe him? but it IS what he not only tells U.S., but his followers and anyone that hears...his propaganda, of course, but it shows clear and discernible motive
my basic take on bin Laden and why i think he IS important...the info in that link and the Sayyid Qutb link in my earlier comment inform my basic perception of the Issue...
toss this one into the mix, and the Petraeus testimony the last few days...
you get the Idea...
Excelsior?
Excelsior?
62 - gonzo marx
Clavos..there's a long comment trapped in the aether in response to yours...
wait for it......
eventually
Excelsior?
63 - gonzo marx
ummm..Lumpy..you want to slow down there and address , specifically, any point i make which you find objectionable?
and please do explain this ..."Whether they can really bring us to our knees or conquer us or not, that is our stated intent and even if they make some opportunistic statements about israel and oil, the fanatical millenialist agenda is still there and still driving it all."
your use of "our stated intent" is confusing, but perhaps revealing...but that's ok, have at it as you like...i'll call it like i see it, you do the same...i'll leave the results to the readers who might take the time ot read the links (and the ones in the trapped in limbo comment)
Excelsior?
64 - RJ
"A firing squad would be too good for you."
This, from a Chavez supporter. I love it.
65 - RJ
"Wow. Talk about trying to redefine reality. You're doing a bit of it your own self there gonzo. There's nothing neocon in this article and no noticable attempt to connect 9/11 to iraq yet you drag in those old straw dogs instead of addressing what it's really about. You need to get off the partisan hate train and take a look at what's really going on in the world."
No, you don't understand. Gonzo is nonpartisan, while the rest of us are a bunch of stupid, dishonest partisan hacks.
Well, that's how he defines his reality, anyway... ;-)
66 - RJ
"it's the very real core Values of our Constitution that are all that require defending along with physical security...to win that very struggle, it is imperative that not an iota of those Principles can be compromised....or we lose, by definition"
So, I guess we "lost" WWII, what with all the nukings of Japanese cities, and internment camps for Japanese-Americans, and fire-bombings of German population centers and all... :-/
67 - troll
the problem with this piece is not that the author conflates 9/11 and the occupation but rather that he suggests that our action in Iraq is strategically related to his 'war with Islam'
...perhaps even more troubling is its emptiness - while the author bemoans the weaknesses of western culture and asks: "When do we cry 'enough' and put the foul beast down?" he offers no clue as to how this genocide could be accomplished
68 - Michael J. West
So, I guess we "lost" WWII, what with all the nukings of Japanese cities, and internment camps for Japanese-Americans, and fire-bombings of German population centers and all... :-/
In a sense, yes.
69 - troll
Micheal...sadly there are lots of folks who (perversely) won't have a clue what you mean
70 - Maurice
#33 misspelled troglodyte
I read all the comments and that was the most interesting thing....
71 - troll
...thanks for sharing your perception - it was really interesting
72 - Nancy
Ah - gawd have mercy on anyone on BC who accidently misspells/misuses a word. Good thing for me the BC police aren't as swift or certain about punctuation-! ;)
73 - gonzo marx
for RJ in number 66 - out of what you cite, the only bit that is pertinent would be the internment camps of Japanese-Americans...citizens..and the Answer is yes,,,yes we lost a bit for that just as we lose ground with torture, warrantless searches/wiretaps/data mining and/or anything that sacrifices essential Rights for the false illusion of "safety"
just my take on it, you call it as YOU see it and i'll do the same...fair enough?
Excelsior?
74 - moonraven
I fail to see what my being a Chavez supporter has to do with a firing squad being way too good for the likes of scum such as JOM.
In Venezuela firing squads do not exist.
(Too bad, as I can think of some oligarchic seditionists who probably deserve to stand in front of one.)
75 - JustOneMan
Moonraven...
"I thank you, my father thanks you and my mother thanks you!" James Cagney
JOM