Free speech is more important than the pandering of opportunistic Senators.
In the heated discussion of the Supreme Court's consideration of the controversial Snyder vs. Phelps case, one aspect of the case is not getting a lot of attention and perhaps it should. Among those taking sides is a group of 42 Senators who have filed an amicus curiae brief on the side of the plaintiff and in opposition to the free speech rights of Westboro Baptist Church Pastor Fred Phelps and his crew of fanatical protesters.…
Article comments
26 - Baronius
I don't understand why the Phelps people can't be arrested for disturbing the peace.
27 - Dr Dreadful
Because they know the law and are very careful to ensure they remain just on the right side of it.
28 - Dr Dreadful
I recommend that people stop telling others it is heroic to donate their lives to invading and killing people around the world.
You'll notice that the people doing so are almost invariably not veterans, who know better.
Worth repeating, often.
29 - Alan Kurtz
Are most cemetaries [sic] public or private property?
Arch Conservative (#21), most are private property. But what do cemeteries have to do with this case?
FACTS
In March 2006, seven members of the Westboro Baptist Church from Topeka, Kansas, protested outside a Roman Catholic Church in Maryland. Inside the church, Albert Snyder was holding a funeral service for his late son, Matthew.
The protestors were lawfully assembled in a public place, specifically an area 1,000 feet away from the church cordoned off for the purpose by police.
30 - Baronius
I recommend that people stop telling others it is heroic to donate their lives to invading and killing people around the world.
Nobody says that. They say that you can earn money for college while protecting America. At most, some people say that it's heroic to protect America.
31 - Alan Kurtz
Is no one going to defend a person who died fighting for his country?
Chris (#22), tens of millions of Americans reflexively honor our fallen warriors. It's called Memorial Day. Happens like clockwork every May. Plus, millions of us pay tribute to fallen warriors, collectively and/or individually, on other occasions throughout the year.
If you mean, is no one on this thread going to defend Marine Lance Corporal Matthew Snyder, I have an idea: why don't you do that, Chris, instead of merely posing the question? Explain to us why LCpl Snyder, who died at age 20 from a non combat-related vehicle accident in Al Anbar province, Iraq, represents a noble sacrifice and not a young life tragically squandered in a needless war.
32 - Dillon Mawler
These Senators are wrong, and it's particularly galling to see Al Franken, for one, in on the brief. As a political satirist by trade, you would think he would be doubly sensitive to freedom of speech, in particular political speech like the detestable excrement spouted by the prehensile Phelps.
But this case is worrisome because of the facts, which no commenters besides Alan seem familiar with. The particulars of the case make it all far from cut and dried -- for one thing, the father never even saw the protest or knew of the signs until later that day when he saw media coverage.
As Alan points out, there were local ords in place, and the Westboro morons followed them.
The father's status as a public figure or a private figure is also at issue, which means different standards of judging the defendants' actions. Also contentious is the civil, rather than criminal, nature of the father's lawsuit.
Worse, the father also sued for derogatory comments the Westboro scumbags placed ON THE INTERNET much later.
A real question is why the activist Roberts court has agreed to hear this case at all. Were they looking for a sympathetic plaintiff and a detestable defendant as an excuse to limit anti-military speech? Or further curtail speech rights in general?
33 - Dave Nalle
Good points, Dillon. In fact, the weakness of Snyder's case is particularly unfortunate, because it gives the Supreme Court the possible out of rejecting the case on a technicality rather than ruling on the central free speech issue.
I don't mention the specific circumstances in the article, because IMO they are irrelevant. It's the principles which matter.
Dave
34 - Alan Kurtz
Dave, you're right, it's the principles that matter. However, as Dillon points out, most of the commenters here seem blissfully ignorant of the case before the court. They therefore sound off, utterly uninformed (e.g., asking whether most cemeteries are public or private property), and thoroughly confuse the principles. Sometimes it's better for an author to outline the underlying facts, even if those do seem "irrelevant" to the overarching principles.
35 - Eric
There is already a significant restriction to freedom of speech. Not long ago, a pastor wanted to burn a few Qurans, the outcry from this country's government made it clear that this type of behavior would not be tolerated. He had every right under the 1st Amendment to burn those books but the government chose to focus on him and not on Westboro Baptist Church. Quite the double standard if you ask me.
36 - Arch Conservative
Alan#29
The phelps klan and other such protestors do have a right to protest in public.
I was pointing out that the minute they infringe upon private property rights they've broken the law.
If they are yelling, screaming and acting like kooks on the sidewalk outside a cemetary, perhaps, since the cemetary is private property, some type of sound and sight barrier could be erected directly in front of them within the bounds of the cemetary so that those attending the funerals may mourn in peace.
Anything that can be done on private property to mitigate the effects of a bunch of nutbags outside that have the legal right to be nutbags outside should be done.
That may not have been the point you wanted to get at Alan but it was the point I was trying to make.
37 - Dillon Mawler
AC, no one was on a sidewalk outside a cemetery. You are not familiar with the facts of the case, but do not let that stop you.
It seems the "Google" button on your computer is broken, but luckily your "post comment" button still works.
38 - Alan Kurtz
Dillon Mawler (#37), in the instance of Arch Conservative (#36), it's called willful ignorance. He is not only fixated on cemeteries, which have nothing to do with this case (see my comment #29), he insists on continually misspelling the word as "cemetary" (despite my pointing out his error). Clearly, Arch Conservative would rather make a fool of himself than to educate himself. In doing so, he's merely living up (or is it down?) to his moniker.
39 - Scott Nance
Hi Dave,
What of the freedom of speech for the families who are attacked by this vile, disgusting Phelps troll?
Who is there to defend that freedom?
Those families also deserve their own freedom of speech -- represented by being able to express themselves in a funeral service without interruption from this horrible Phelps person.
As a journalist, I consider the First Amendment sacred. I also know that my right does not include being able to shout, "Fire," in a crowded room.
40 - Alan Kurtz
Unless, of course, there actually is a fire in the room. In that case, it becomes not merely your right, but your duty to sound the alarm. That's what this case is about.
41 - Alan Kurtz
I guess I ought to have added that in this analogy, the room is America and Pastor Phelps preaches that it's on fire. Because "the modern militant homosexual movement poses a clear and present danger to the survival of America," God has struck down U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan "in righteous judgment against an evil nation." For anyone who believes this, to not cry Fire!--as by demonstrating at military funerals--would be tantamount to renouncing one's faith.
42 - El Bicho
"Clearly, Arch Conservative would rather make a fool of himself than to educate himself."
Quoted for truth
"What of the freedom of speech for the families who are attacked by this vile, disgusting Phelps troll?"
How is their freedom of speech is being impacted?
43 - Alan Kurtz
Those families also deserve their own freedom of speech--represented by being able to express themselves in a funeral service without interruption from this horrible Phelps person.
Scott Nance (#39), I have found several sources online that may lessen your confusion. From that bastion of liberal enlightenment FoxNews comes this: "In the days leading up to the funeral, Westboro parishioners, including Fred Phelps, notified local authorities of their intention to picket the service. They were kept 1,000 feet away from the church and because of the use of an alternative entrance for churchgoers there was no disruption to the memorial. … There were no arrests." (Emphasis added.)
I also found two sources--here and here saying that Albert Snyder, father of the fallen warrior, wasn't even aware of the protest at the funeral until he watched it later on television.
So, as El Bicho suggests in comment #42, the freedom of speech of those attending the funeral was in no way impacted.
44 - Cannonshop
Freedom of speech includes the right to see/hear things that offend you.
45 - zingzing
yep qft
46 - zingzing
w/o q, but still qft, i guess.
47 - kurt Brigliadora
The whole process needs to be changed...Who ever votes ; needs to disclose all their affiliates in public and business dealings.And some one needs to keep score and watch what their real agenda's are. its not enough anymore to simply vote them in on some B S promises that they dont keep."Performance based"politics is what america needs..No matter what the issue!
48 - Dave Nalle
What of the freedom of speech for the families who are attacked by this vile, disgusting Phelps troll?
Scott, they are welcome to counter-protest as many groups are doing.
Who is there to defend that freedom?
Me. I defend it just as much as I defend Phelps' free speech.
Those families also deserve their own freedom of speech -- represented by being able to express themselves in a funeral service without interruption from this horrible Phelps person.
No one infringed their free speech at all. As Alan pointed out earlier, the protesters were so far away they could neither be seen nor heard at the service.
Dave
49 - handyguy
Excellent article in Sunday morning’s NY Times about the Phelps and their ever-growing presence in Topeka. Fred Phelps has 13 children, 56 grandchildren, and 9 great-grandchildren. 11 of his 13 children are lawyers, and many of the grandchildren are fully indoctrinated “soldiers” in this “battle.”
In Topeka, the Price of Free Speech
Even though Dave is probably right on the free speech legality of this case, it still turns one's stomach. It's easy to understand the impulse to do something to these people, in the way the Southern Poverty Law Center successfully sued and bankrupted the White Aryan Resistance. One hopes that was Snyder's intent, rather than financial gain.
50 - Jessica
I really hope someone comes to your funeral and says you deserved to die... maybe then you will see your own idiocy and take it back
51 - El Bicho
"I really hope someone comes to your funeral and says you deserved to die... maybe then you will see your own idiocy and take it back"
Speaking of idiocy...
52 - Alan Kurtz
Nice image, Jessica. Someone sitting up in his casket and crying, "You're right! I'm an idiot! I take it back!" And then running out with his irate mourners to attack the seven women and children from the Westboro Baptist Church, who are lawfully assembled in public protest 1,000 feet away from his funeral in a space cordoned off for that purpose by police.
Sounds like a low-budget horror film: Revenge of the Dead Idiots. Coming soon to a trailer park near you.
53 - Disgusted and Disturbed
Freedom of Speech is already limited, as it rightly should be. It does not cover vulgar or obscene language, and you can get it trouble for shouting "bomb" at the airport or "fire" in a theater. Someone has to lose in this case, and I rather it be the ones who take joy in abusing the rights given to them than the ones suffering because of the abuse of the rights. Action, reaction, consequence. They've had their fun, now it's time to clean up, put their toys away, and pay the piper. A cult like that has no place in this country.
They are the ones digging their grave and carving the headstone, and it's only a matter of time before the reaper comes to collect. Let the church become broken and scattered, and that family banned from ever setting foot in a court of law as lawyers ever again.
Also, whoever thinks that soldiers are being forced or coerced into anything are wrong. They choose to join, and they know what can and will happen. If you can't stand behind out troops, then stand in front of them.
Thank you, and have a good life.