A 2012 Report Card for humanity.
"Before I draw nearer to that stone to which you point," said Scrooge, "answer me one question. Are these the shadows of the things that Will be, or are they shadows of things that May be, only?"
Still the Ghost pointed downward to the grave by which it stood.
"Men's courses will foreshadow certain ends, to which, if persevered in, they must lead," said Scrooge. "But if the courses be departed from, the ends will change. Say it is thus with what you show me."…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Doug Hunter
"Do you hear yourself? It's okay that some child is working at age 5 to help support a family because no adults are paid enough to keep the family alive and you don't want to be inconvenienced?"
The only thing worse for those people than having to work at a sweatshop is not having work at a sweatshop in which case you simply starve to death. Although it seems horrid by our standards it's actually an improvement to the condition of the people who work there (or they wouldn't). How dare the heartless embeciles take away those people's opportunity to work.
27 - Zozobra
"The only thing worse for those people than having to work at a sweatshop is not having work at a sweatshop in which case you simply starve to death."
With this choice facing the masses, doom is assured.
Free to Choose? Free to starve.
Z
28 - Philip Harris
Yes, another failing grade. I wonder what people would say if were our children in those sweat shops? It is so easier to trivialize (sorry, an exaggeration) the plight of millions when those millions are in distant corners. But you see, as these events unfold, these happenings may not be so distant. We are still reeling from Katrina. Add another disaster or two on top of our stretched economy and, well...it will not be pretty.
BTW, we can still make positive choices now-not ten years from now, that can soften the blow of the poor crops we have sown.
29 - Doug Hunter
Another failing grade, another condescending, freedom hating, hypocritical leftist [Gratuitous vulgarity deleted by Comments Editor] who hasn't ever actually done anything of value for the planet but bleats on endlessly about how everyone else hasn't done enough for the planet. Your willingness to sacrifice other's freedoms and resources for whatever cause you perceive worthy is indeed laudable, your ego should sleep soundly in it's moral superiority.
30 - Philip Harris
Actually Doug, I am a registered Republican. I am also a friend of Andrew Card, former Bush Chief of staff and I ran his campaign for governor in MA. But you see, a real republican is a conservationist-da-conservative. Republican wannabe's do not really know what a Republican really is. Further, I totally believe in freedom. However, the price of freedom is RESPONSIBILITY. Total freedom is taking total responsibility for your life. Giving power to large, uncaring corporations means you gave your freedom up to them, not government.
It seems like you are doing a lot of bleating about nothing. One preserves their freedom by having intelligent conversation and not repeating right wing babble. Further, you have no idea what I may have done to preserve our freedom. I want my grand kids to be free and to have a planet to live on. I want them to have real information upon which to make intelligent decisions. They say knowledge is power, actually, the use of knowledge is power-but I can see that you would not know that. Have fun with your fiddle!
31 - Baronius
Philip, I'd be curious to hear your answer to my question. Climate change aside, what's our grade?
Cindy, did you really think that the big problem with this thread was that we didn't have enough subjects to discuss?
32 - Zozobra
Baronius - we are still here...A+...begrudgingly
Z
33 - Bliffle
What you have to understand, Phil, is that guys such as Doug LIKE sweatshops!
To them the sweatshop is proof that a deserving corporate chieftain is not being deprived of a few dollars by some undeserving wretch who has not fought to conquer his neighbors and to subjugate his associates and claw his way up the ladder.
For you see, clawing his way up the ladder is what that chieftain has spent his whole life doing, and in order not to feel that he has wasted his time he has to elevate that activity to the highest moral standing.
You can hear the ring of morality in Dougs statements, the strident trumpeting of the moral superiority of power accumulation.
And why does that Chieftain have a suspicion that he may have wasted his time? For that suspicion animates his NEED to pronounce the course he took as morally superior.
Because he's unhappy.
Because he feels insecure. He knows exactly how he got what he got. He knows that it was no special ability or virtue of his own that brought him riches. Anyone could do it, and maybe someone will, and in so doing will take away his toys.
So he cherishes the sweatshops. Of course, he announces that sweatshops are necessary because they punish under-achievers and thus promote higher achievement. But what he really likes is that it imprisons potential challengers.
34 - Doug Hunter
"Giving power to large, uncaring corporations means you gave your freedom up to them, not government."
Talk to your bosses on this one. Corporations, with all their wealth, can't directly force me to do anything. The only ones with the authority to take away freedom and force me into anything are the government stooges. (admittedly often paid to do so by those same rich corporations)
Perhaps you don't support government intervention in all these areas, I just read the complaints, the supporting comments that scoffed at the idea of freedom (a logical neccessity if you're a fan of government intervention) saw you worked for the government, and made an assumption.
Anyway, I just get frustrated at times with the general trend towards statism and away from liberty. In my somewhat libertarian (it's a continuous spectrum of course) worldview you are free to do whatever and support whatever causes you choose, it pains me that most political activists would not extend me the same courtesy.
35 - Doug Hunter
Blif, I do like sweatshops. People work in sweatshops becuase it's better than not working in the sweatshop. Next thing you know some other rich asshole wants to make money like the first one did with his shop. Now you have two sweatshops, then three, four. Pretty soon the pool of desperate starving people dwindles (a good thing) and you must raise wages a bit to find new ones when the old ones lose their fingers in the machine. (another good thing, at least the raising wages bit) Raises move a bit more then the adults in the families figure they can work triple special overtime and let younger kids stay home(another good thing). Pretty soon the entire local economy is transformed an what was formerly starving, disease ridden subsistence farmers are now in the age of technology. The children of the sweatshop workers are now manufacturing computer chips and the evil dirty capitalists have moved on with their sweatshops to rescue another corner of the globe.
36 - doug m
I love how DH gets schooled by Philip when he calls him a leftist, and then doesn't acknowledge his error.
37 - Dr Dreadful
Go back and read Doc's original comment. That wasn't his point and not the point of my response to him.
No, it wasn't, but Jordan's is a good one. My point, which you also didn't address, is that although the percentage of the world population which lives near the ocean now may well be similar to that which did so 10,000 years ago, they are FAR less mobile and able to adapt to sea level and other climate-influenced changes.
Moving New York City a few miles inland vs. moving a small collection of reed huts a few miles inland... I know who my money's on.
38 - Philip Harris
Climate change aside, what's our grade?
oKAY, THE PROBLEM IS, i CANNOT PUT CLIMATE CHANGE ASIDE BECAUSE ALL OF THE ELEMENTS-oooops, had the cap button on-sorry-are holistic-one cannot be separated from the other. This has been humanity's problem-we do not understand interrelationships. The web of life is something we are not immune from. Life is holistic. That being said--
We still fail if climate is extracted. We simply cannot do business as usual. We consume but do not replenish-this cannot last. Yes, great strides are being made in science-I love science-the problem is that of time-we are running out of it. If all of this-current events and scientific breakthroughs occurred 20 years ago-we may have had a chance. But, what is happening in science will not see the light of day for years-the military will use things first. Keep in mind-it is the climate change that has motivated our search for alternative energy. But, many knew this many years ago and nothing was done. We are on the right track but we are also too late.
I think Doug is pulling our leg. No one can still believe that way. That is like the theory of colonialism. A slave with a home is better than a slave in the jungle-and-of course everyone should be just like us.
Government does very little unless it meets the need of business. If you do not think that Bilderberg, Jason, Tri-lateral, etc. do not call the shots-then yes, we are doomed and deserve it!
You think your life is free. Look at your life. What do you own, what are your values-many of your choices have been made for you-you simply bought the corporate party line. You only lose freedom if you give it away.
Blif! You surprise me-I'm impressed.
[Edited]
39 - Doug Hunter
"I think Doug is pulling our leg. No one can still believe that way."
Lots of economists and people with their eyes open do. The evil Nike corp used to make it's shoes in South Korea and Taiwan in the 1970's, look what the sweatshops did to those countries. The invisible hand of capitalism does all the work, the the mouths come out and take credit for it. After prosperity has created a situation where children don't need to work 16 hours to help the family stave off starvation, then the government passes regulations after the fact and the do-gooders pat themselves on the back.
Regulation didn't fix child labor, improving economic conditions did. In fact, as you alluded, if economic conditions go back far enough those old necessities will rear their ugly heads again.
40 - Clavos
If you do not think that Bilderberg, Jason, Tri-lateral, etc. do not call the shots-then yes, we are doomed and deserve it!
Oh boy...
41 - roger nowosielski
doug m,
Unfortunately, that's the level of our discussions most of the times - resorting to labels, innuendos, etc., all shortcuts to thinking. And so, we have to keep on reminding the culprits that it won't carry the day.
Thank you for your comment.
42 - Clavos
Moving New York City a few miles inland vs. moving a small collection of reed huts a few miles inland... I know who my money's on.
The odds of our ever having to do so are slim to none, IMO.
43 - roger nowosielski
"A slave with a home is better than a slave in the jungle-and-of course everyone should be just like us."
Great line. There might have been some excuses in the midst of the Industrial Revolution, but today . . .
Is that the face of capitalism progressing, bringing hope and prosperity to all?
44 - roger nowosielski
Doug still hasn't answered the responsibility component of "freedom" - not only for your own life but that of all those who make up the society.
But I suppose he can't, because once he allows that notion, his fictional idea of freedom would evaporate.
45 - Dr Dreadful
The odds of our ever having to do so are slim to none, IMO.
We'll see. Without the ingenious but hugely expensive Thames Barrier (which is having to be raised with increasing frequency these days and will probably need to be replaced around 2030), London would already be thinking about it.
46 - Dr Dreadful
Although I must say this little tidbit from the article is a bit of a jaw-drooper:
"Add to all of this the great unknown of our solar systems alignment with the galactic core"
Aligned in relation to what? Our solar system orbits the galactic core. It's impossible for us not to be aligned with it...!
47 - Baronius
Philip, I think the way Doug H does. At least I'd agree with his comment #35. If you look at the scenario he describes, without presuppositions, it's valid.
To be honest, I felt like you were pulling my leg in parts of this article, but thinking that way will prevent the discussion from advancing.
Next topic (for me at least) is religion. You assume that a) religion is a bad influence, b) religion is opposed to science, and c) a spirituality of openness is a good influence. You didn't back up those ideas. I'd argue the opposite: that the best things of Western culture, including the study of science, were founded on the Western religious tradition.
48 - Clavos
@#46:
We'll see.
Probably not. You're a lot younger than I, but even you won't live long enough to see NYC under water, even at street level, if it ever is.
I have a pretty good measure. My house in St. Petersburg (Florida, not Russia) is waterfront and my seawall is 25 feet from the back wall of the house. The house had an elevation of 4.5 feet above MHW (mean high water), when I bought it a little more than twenty years ago, in February 1989.
It still does. I know this because, in order to get the permits to have some remodeling done, I had to have its elevation surveyed again a couple of months ago.
The house is three blocks from the Gulf of Mexico, on a salt water bay. The barrier island on which it is built is about 300 yards wide from gulf to bay.
I'm not worried. Neither are my tenants.
49 - Baronius
But Clavos, if NYC goes under, think of all the boat purchases!
50 - Doug Hunter
"But I suppose he can't, because once he allows that notion, his fictional idea of freedom would evaporate." Roger
I didn't know you were in the bash freedom camp, Roger. I make a serious distinction between being a responsible citizen and using the power of the government to force your idea of responsibility on everyone else. I voluntarily do many things I would never suggest the government make mandatory that I believe would make many world a better place if everyone did them.
My primary interest in politics is to maintain at least the level of freedom I currently have against the assaults of those who know how I should live my life better than I do. Must I now count you in that camp?
51 - roger nowosielski
I have no idea, Douglas, about the assaults you're talking about. I don't see any from Philip nor from me. Don't forget the context, sweat shops in this day and age. We should have better ways by now of bringing Third World countries to a standard of living comparable to our own - isn't that, after all, the noble aim of the West and the capitalist system. So your defending the methods and practices of raw capitalism, at the time of its very inception and necessary as they may have been - and in the name of freedom - does come across as very archaic if not unenlightened to say the least.
52 - roger nowosielski
Not to mention the fact you deplore Americans for having become Wall-Mart consumers and subsidizing cheaply made, sweat-shop products. So let's get consistent here and call a spade a spade.
53 - Philip Harris
The ancient Mayan astronomers accurately predicted, over 1500 years ago, the exact alignment of the Earth, the Sun, the star cluster Pleiades and of the center of our Galaxy that will take place at the end of the present long cycle on the Gregorian year 2012. On the Mayan Long Calendar the day designated as 4 Ahau 3 Kankin (13.0.0.0.0) falls on December 21, 2012
The Earth revolves once around the Milky Way galaxy approximately every 228 million years. This could be called the Galactic Cycle.
The completion of one pass of the precession through all 12 signs of your zodiac represents one Grand Cycle of approximately 25,920 years.
Once every Grand Cycle, the elliptical pattern traced by the toroidal core returns to its “starting point.” The number of ellipses traced during a Galactic Cycle will approximately equal 228 million divided by 25,920, or a little over 9000 Grand Cycles. Just in case you still haven’t been able to visualize this, think of one of those drawing tools you have that creates spirals and doodles, and imagine a series of small circles orbiting about a large circle (or actually spiral).
Now suppose you wanted to know how often the core of the Earth will line up with the exact center of the galaxy. This exact lineup might only happen once every 228 million years times 25,920 years (a very large number between five and six trillion), because the smaller cycle (precession) does not divide evenly into 228 million (the galactic cycle).
Hopefully you get the drift-there really is a lot of science regarding the position of our solar system and the core and the cycle we are entering-Many will think this whacked so i did not want to get into it too much here-Just like Polarity shift-which is beginning according to NASA-but that is another topic.
Can't buy into "my house is not sinking" so not a problem argument. There are places in the world where this is a real problem and people are having to move. I am sure Louisiana thought it was safe, too-yes, that was a storm but the changing sea levels added to the problem.
Yes, I assume religion is the bane of human existence. It is divisive, responsible for the deaths of untold millions (just Google deaths caused by religious wars) and has kept humanity in a form of mental slavery. You didn't back up your assertion either. There is little historical proof that religion ever supported advances in science that in any way conflicted with prevailing dogma. Inquisition anyone? If anything, most science was rooted in the Muslim tradition, certainly not Christianity. perhaps that will be another post.
54 - Philip Harris
That is the thing-we always have choices. We did not HAVE TO exploit third world nations. It was the choice of greedy people who pulled the strings of government. Our notion of free enterprise has meant that we are free to do whatever we want to make more money. Free for us, but not those whose lives we destroy. Everyone may not want a Big Mac. our new form of imperialism has been cultural-we are the best so everyone must want to be just like us-whether they realize it or not. But nations have caught on and that is why the backlash and distrust and even outright hatred. besides, by what standard are we the best?
55 - Dr Dreadful
Now suppose you wanted to know how often the core of the Earth will line up with the exact center of the galaxy.
There. Right there's where it's nonsense. The core of the Earth is ALWAYS lined up with the exact center of the galaxy. All you have to do is draw a straight line between them.
You might as well say that my left ear is exactly aligned with your big toe.
And the argument that Earth, or the Solar System or whatever, is completing a Galactic Cycle or a Grand Cycle only works by picking an arbitrary starting point. You could just as easily pick 428 million years ago as your starting point and have the last one end 200 million years ago.
56 - Baronius
Philip, there is so much to disagree with in your comment #53 that I don't want to leave anything out. The biggie for me is that you condemn religion, but sign on to the beliefs of the Mayans. I would have thought that the human sacrifice would be a deal-breaker.
FWIW, the Catholic Church and medieval philosophers pretty much created science. I don't know what you're referring to about the Inquisition, but it had nothing to do with science either way.
The Muslims did promote and preserve learning. You'll find that the three monotheistic cultures developed most of the world's big thinking. Polytheistic religions tended to do a good job with calendars, to keep track of the crops and ritual killings and stuff.
57 - Clavos
I am sure Louisiana thought it was safe, too-yes
If they did, they are moronic beyond belief -- NOLA has never been safe, it's built below sea level.
It's not rocket surgery to know that inevitably it would be destroyed; it will, in fact, happen again.
It has nothing to do with GW and everything to do with the idiocy of putting a city in that location in the first place.
58 - Philip Harris
Last first-yup, there are lots of morons and lots of cities, villages, towns and people at or near sea level-wonder where they will go?
Science progressed despite catholic persecution. It was done by catholics because you had to be a catholic-The trials of Galileo, Copernicus-the recants so they would not be burned at the stake for heresy-do these ring a bell-the creation of new secret societies to hide science from the church lest they burn at the stake-sorry, science was anathema to the church-that is straight history. All modern math was created by the Muslims.
"You'll find that the three monotheistic cultures developed most of the world's big thinking." That is a very pompous and arrogant statement. To the Buddhist or Hindu our way of thinking is primitive. Actually, quantum physics has found that ancient Hindu cosmology is perhaps more accurate and closer to reality. I love how you relegate polytheism to calendars and crops. This is why the west is crumbling-our superior way of thinking will save the world. Almost all great truths have emerged from the East, not the materialistic West. Again, you must define 'big' for who.
My views on religion can be surmised at my Waking God or by reading the first 2 of my WAKING GOD TRILOGY. Like I said-another topic.
As for the Mayans-yup, there was an outer form of their religion that degenerated into sacrifice-Christians were more civilized-we burnt people and pulled them apart and tried to see if they would float with weights attached...
Anyway, I am not signing onto the beliefs of the , but rather the knowledge of the Dayan-just as I have no problems with the teachings of Jesus (I wrote a book about them)-but rather with the self-serving institution that sprang up after him.
Yes, you can always draw a straight line to the core-not was not really their point-and yes you can start a 25k cycle today. They were a bit more methodical than that. It deals with the alignments of the planets, sun, constellations which, they claim, bring major changes to the planet-not the end of the world-major changes.
59 - Clavos
Last first-yup, there are lots of morons and lots of cities, villages, towns and people at or near sea level
But most aren't built below historical sea level and aren't sitting in the middle of Hurricane Alley. That's what makes the placement (and especially the rebuilding after Katrina) of NOLA so moronic.
As for the Mayans-yup, there was an outer form of their religion that degenerated into sacrifice
Not an "outer form." It was central to their ceremonial lives, as it was throughout the Pre-Columbian Americas -- from the Aymara and Quechua, and from the Inca Empire all the way north to the Mesoamerican peoples: Mexica (Aztecs), Toltecs, Olmecs, Nahuas and others, including the Mayan Empire, which bridged the Incas and Mexica.
From Wikipedia: (This information can also be found in Jared Diamond's Pulitzer Prize-winning book, Guns, Germs, and Steel):
The practice of human sacrifice was widespread in the Mesoamerican and in the South American cultures during the Inca Empire.
Also from Wikipedia:
The practice of child sacrifice in Pre-Columbian cultures, in particular Mesoamerican and South American cultures, is well documented both in the archaeological records and in written sources...
And even in North America:
The Pawnee practiced an annual Morning Star ceremony, which included the sacrifice of a young girl. Though the ritual continued, the sacrifice was discontinued in the 19th Century.[14] The Iroquois are said to have occasionally sent a maiden to the Great Spirit.[15]
Wikipedia again:
The Maya practiced human sacrifice. In some Maya rituals people were killed by having their arms and legs held while a priest cut the person's chest open and tore out his heart as an offering. This is depicted on ancient objects such as pictorial texts, known as codices. It is believed that children were often offered as sacrificial victims because they were believed to be pure.[24]
60 - Philip Harris
I understand that there were many practices of sacrifice-I still contend it was the outer form, the institution, that created and perpetuated these acts.
There is also:
Death tolls are given by historians such as Will Durant, who, in The Reformation (1957), cites Juan Antonio Llorente, General Secretary of the Inquisition from 1789 to 1801, as estimating that 31,912 people were executed from 1480-1808. He also cites Hernando de Pulgar, a secretary to Queen Isabella, as estimating 2,000 people were burned before 1490. Philip Schaff in his History of the Christian Church gave a number of 8,800 people burned in the 18 years of Torquemada. Matthew White, in reviewing these and other figures, gives a median number of deaths at 32,000, with around 9,000 under Torquemada [1]. R. J. Rummel describes similar figures as realistic, though he cites some historians who give figures of up to 135,000 people killed under Torquemada. This number includes 125,000 asserted to have died in prison due to poor conditions, leaving 10,000 sentenced to death. (Death rates in medieval and early modern prisons were generally very high, thanks in part to inadequate sanitary conditions and a poor diet.) There are no death toll figures available for the massacres of 1391, 1468 or 1473. These numbers will likely never be known.
And This site gives brief dscriptions of deaths caused by all major conflicts of the 20th century, and includes a category of religious conflicts in both the 20th century and earlier:
Religious Conflicts (selected)
Generally speaking, in most of the following cases, religion is both
the stated cause of the killing and the only substantive difference
between the two opposing groups. Obviously, there would be many
additional conflicts where religion is just one of several divisions.
Albigensian Crusade, 1208-49
Algeria, 1992-
Baha'is, 1848-54
Bosnia, 1992-95
Boxer Rebellion, 1899-1901
Christian Romans, 30-313 CE
Croatia, 1991-92
Early Christian doctrinal disputes
English Civil War, 1642-46
Holocaust, 1938-45
Huguenot Wars, 1562-1598
India, 1992-2002
India: Suttee & Thugs
Indo-Pakistani Partition, 1947
Iran, Islamic Republic, 1979-
Iraq, Shiites, 1991-92
Jews, 1348
Jonestown, 1978
Lebanon
1860
1975-92
Martyrs, generally
Molucca Is., 1999-
Mongolia, 1937-39
Northern Ireland, 1974-98
Responsibility generally (Is religion responsible for more deaths than ...?)
Christian culpabiltiy
Russian pogroms:
1905-06
1917-22
St. Bartholemew Massacre, 1572
Shang China, ca. 1300-1050 BCE
Shimabara Revolt, Japan 1637-38
Sikh uprising, India, 1984-91
Spanish Inquisition, 1478-1834
Taiping Rebellion, 1850-64
Thirty Years War, 1618-48
Tudor England
Vietnam, 1800s
Witch Hunts, 1400-1800
Xhosa, 1857
In addition, here are a few noteworthy conflicts where dissimilar
ethnic groups fought for primarily religious reasons:
Arab Outbreak, 7th Century CE
Arab-Israeli Wars, 1948-
Al Qaeda, 1993-
Crusades, 1095-1291
Dutch Revolt, 1566-1609
Nigeria, 1990s, 2000s
All religions kill, not just "primitive natives" who are not a part of the Big Thinkers.
61 - Christopher Rose
Philip, much as I am enjoying both your writing and your comments, please don't post raw urls.
It is Blogcritics house style to have all links properly structured with anchor text, so Blogcritics, not http://blogcritics.org. If you don't yet know how, here is a very simple explanation of how to format a link properly.
Thanks.
Christopher Rose
Blogcritics Comments Editor
62 - Baronius
Philip, I've never heard of the trial of Copernicus. The guy was a priest who published a popular book on astronomy. It was Galileo's supposed forays into theology that caused the later problems.
As I said earlier, the Muslims did preserve and promote learning, but let's not overstate their contributions to mathematics. They were largely based on the ancient Greek works they had preserved, and on the algebra that they picked up in India.
I've looked into the claim that religion was responsible for more deaths than anything else. You might be able to make that claim up through 1789, but after that it's been secular or atheistic states dominating the numbers. I notice that in your numbers, you count the Holocaust as a religious conflict, which requires a pretty strained reading of history.
On each of these points, it seems like you've only done cursory reading.
63 - Clavos
All religions kill, not just "primitive natives" who are not a part of the Big Thinkers.
I never said otherwise, merely corrected your assertion that human sacrifice was not central to the Mayan civilation.
In fact, I would venture that killing each other (for any number of reasons) is an historically ingrained (and IMO, immutable) part of human nature, for all that modern liberals wish it weren't so.
64 - Christopher Rose
You're just a tiny bit cynical and pessimistic though, Clav...
65 - Clavos
You're just a tiny bit cynical and pessimistic though, Clav...
Moi???
Seriously, I don't deny it, but has there ever been a period of more than a few years in all of recorded history when people weren't killing each other in some part of (or all over) the globe?
66 - Baronius
Clavos, have you ever seen the movie Serenity?
"I'll kill a man in a fair fight...or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight...or if he bothers me...or if there's a girl...or for money...definitely for money..."
67 - Clavos
Haven't seen it, Bar, but I like the line; I'll look for the movie...
68 - Dr Dreadful
I love the show Firefly - inexplicably cancelled midway through its first season - but have yet to see the movie version, Serenity. I plan to address that omission very soon.
69 - Philip Harris
Sorry about the link thing.
My only point in the list was to counter the list of hearts being torn out-not to debate numbers-really just showing that the west has more than its fair share of religious killings-I do not at all dispute the sacrifices-but again-that is from the religious institutional side of native culture-thus, my point-religion sucks-no matter where you find it.
Yup, sorry, Copernicus was just condemned but no trial-except his mother for heresy.
Numbers of dead-yes, they can be debated-I contend that the 6M Jews killed was religious persecution and then we have the slaughter by Stalin-but, no-the war was not started for religious reasons. Of course there is Iraq/Iran/Afghanistan. The 2 major causes of war in my opinion are greed and religion-Religion often the tool of the greedy-you know, white man's burden.
70 - Bliffle
Communism was a religion, Naziism was a religion. They each had their High Holymen, Stalin and Hitler, shibboleths, commandments, and most of all: demands for blind loyalty.
Otherwise no one would have participated in their massacres.
71 - Philip Harris
Depending on how you define it-you are right! Bliffle-hmmm, we agree once more.
The global ocean surface temperature for July 2009 was the warmest on record
72 - Baronius
I can't find any mention of Barbara Watzenrode being tried for heresy, or any sign that Copernicus was condemned (trial or no). Her brother had a few run-ins with the Teutonic Knights, but that's all I can find. Are you sure about this?
73 - roger nowosielski
I believe Copernicus had to recant on his deathbed.
74 - Philip Harris
Get information, facts, and pictures about Copernican system at Encyclopedia.com. ... Religious War, Political Intrigue, and the Heresy Trial of His Mother.
75 - roger nowosielski
The following is a more correct account.