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Persia Delenda Est! Israel’s Case for a Pre-Emptive Nuclear Strike on Tehran

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Introduction

This article is not yet another screed on the necessity for attacking the nuclear facilities in Iran, facilities which, if allowed to grow unchecked, will pose a deadly existential threat to the State and to the People of Israel. Such articles have become a cottage industry of sorts and the more they are turned out, the cheesier they get. Nearly all of these articles posit that if we in Israel attack the Persian nuclear facilities, we will retard their drive for nuclear weaponry and thereby win the (eventual) gratitude of the "civilized" world. Leaving aside the obvious military problems this nation faces in executing such an attack, it assumes that the rest of the world is civilized at all, and that with time, will have the intelligence to show gratitude to us. Considering how so many in the world continue to call for us to die, such assumptions are premature at the least.

Let's look at one of the least cheesy articles on the subject, one from 8 May's Jerusalem Post authored by Caroline Glick, "Obama's Green Light to Attack Iran." She points out that

As a consequence, the operational significance of the administration's anti-Israel positions is that Israel will not be well served by adopting a more accommodating posture toward the Palestinians and Iran. Indeed, perversely, what the Obama administration's treatment of Israel should be making clear to the Netanyahu government is that Israel should no longer take Washington's views into account as it makes its decisions about how to advance Israel's national security interests. This is particularly true with regard to Iran's nuclear weapons program.

Rationally speaking, the only way the Obama administration could reasonably expect to deter Israel from attacking Iran's nuclear installations would be if it could make the cost for Israel of attacking higher than the cost for Israel of not attacking. But what the behavior of the Obama administration is demonstrating is that there is no significant difference in the costs of the two options.

By blaming Israel for the absence of peace in the Middle East while ignoring the Palestinians' refusal to accept Israel's right to exist; by seeking to build an international coalition with Europe and the Arabs against Israel while glossing over the fact that at least the Arabs share Israel's concerns about Iran; by exposing Israel's nuclear arsenal and pressuring Israel to disarm while in the meantime courting the ayatollahs like an overeager bridegroom, the Obama administration is telling Israel that regardless of what it does, and what objective reality is, as far as the White House is concerned, Israel is to blame.

Unlike Ms. Glick, who cannot afford to say these things from her perch at the Jerusalem Post, the article that follows calls for a preemptive nuclear strike on Tehran and such other targets in Persia that will destroy the command and control systems holding together Persian offensive military capability. Even if this attack never comes about, it is incumbent for an Israeli to lay on the table and make clear to the world the necessity for such a strike, if only to make clear to our mortal enemies that we possess the will to exterminate them as they would exterminate us.

I. Carthago Delenda Est!

The title of this article is taken from the words of the Roman senator Cato the Elder, who ended each of his speeches before the Roman Senate with this declaration: Cathago delenda est!, "Carthage must be destroyed!"

According to an article from Boise State University in Idaho on the Third Punic War, the destruction of Carthage by Rome was more an act of greed than an act of necessity. Here the opposite applies. There is no greed at issue at all here. Israeli carpet weavers are not threatened by their Persian counterparts, Israel's fishing industry or shepherds are not threatened by anything Persia could do; if Israeli poets are less known than Khalil Ghibran, it is not the fault of Ghibran's superior verses but of our own insufficient verse-making.

No.

Modern day Persia, once the home of Zoroastrian emperors friendly to our people, under its present guise of the "Islamic Republic of Iran" has decided that we must be wiped from the map, and that the world must accustom itself to a world without Israel. This speech linked to, calling for the annihilation of Israel, was made in 2005.

In 2006, HizbAllah, the Shi'ite proxy and puppet of Iran in Lebanon, began a rocket bombardment that successfully caused the inhabitants of the north of the country to flee. The Israeli government in the north collapsed, and the land was filled with internal refugees. Our brave army, which fought hard to defeat HizbAllah using the worst of military tactics, tactics largely dictated by the whims of then American Secretary of State Rice, was robbed of its victory in the north by the cowardice of the "prime minister," Olmert, who cowered before the Americans and sued for peace instead of prosecuting war. In late 2008, a different proxy of Persia, Hamas, began a steady bombardment of the country from the south in Gaza. Israeli troops again took to the battlefield, going into harm's way unnecessarily, only to be robbed of victory by the demands of the 'Blessed of Hussein," the new American president, who demanded that there be a ceasefire in place before he was inaugurated so as not to mess up his moment in the sun. Again, our leaders cowered like dogs before the American regime which, bit by bit is making itself an open enemy of the State of Israel, where previously it twisted its knife in our backs under the glove of "friendship" and "support."

So, we see clearly, that the Persians will prosecute war against us. They have already done so — twice. Those fools who say that the words of the Persian leader are just loud talk refuse to look the facts in the face. Usually, this is because the facts are far away from them, and they themselves need not look the ugly truth in the face. Having looked in the faces of internal refugees fleeing rocket attacks in the north myself, however, I am forced to face facts. The most essential fact is this: Persia, under its present guise, presents an existential threat to the State of and the People of Israel.

II. Persia's Drive for Nuclear Weaponry

There are some points that should be made clear here. The possession of nuclear weapons is the modern day version of the big swinging phallus of macho types who would pound their chests proclaiming their manhood to the world. In this respect, Persia is no different from India, Pakistan, France or Britain. The Persians all see themselves as the inheritors of a great empire, and in fact they are. For this reason, any nationalistic Persian will want that big swinging phallus of a nuclear banana for his nation. In other words, it matters little which regime one speaks of. The Persians could have an emperor, as they did until 1979, a democratic republic, as they had for very brief periods of time, or the present Shi'a mullahcracy — all would want nuclear defensive and offensive capabilities simply because they all feel that Persia deserves it. In that sense, there is no real reason to oppose the Persians obtaining nuclear weapons.

The problem comes when one sees just how belligerent the Persians, under this present regime, are concerning Israel. Since they have twice gone to war against us, even if only by proxy, and continually they call for the destruction of the Jewish State, we are fools to ignore them or the real threats they pose to this country.

III. Problems Executing This Plan

What about Pakistan's nuclear weaponry? Couldn't Pakistan be the real threat Persia is dealing with, while using hostility to this country as a cover?

As late as September 2001, one could have said that and been accurate. Israelis did not raise serious alarums about Persian nuclear efforts before then for the precise reason that our own intelligence assessed the Persians to be worried about the "Moslem Bomb" to the east. But the emergence of the Wahhabi terror network (the Taliban is heavily influenced by the Wahhabi and has close ties with them) reshuffled the whole deck of cards in South and Southwest Asia. After 9/11, the Pakistani government and military started to take on a Jekyll and Hyde nature.

The Taliban was largely the creation of the Pakistani intelligence agency, at the behest of the United States, the idea being to create a native Afghani presence that would cripple the Soviets, who had invaded Afghanistan. Until 1989 or 1990 this worked just fine. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Taliban moved in to collect its reward, control of Afghanistan. For reasons that are not entirely clear to me, the Wahhabi, in the form of al-Qaeda, turned on the United States and other western powers, and when American planes came to pursue and kill Osama bin-Laden, the Pakistanis were in a bind. This bind has slowly torn Pakistan apart since, as the government and military had to more and more compete with each other, and now with the Taliban madrassas as well.

In the last eight years, Pakistan has lost its coherence as a country. The military holds the whip hand, the civilian government sort of knows what's going on, but doesn't want to, and the intelligence agency runs its own game. In the meantime, the Taliban grows stronger and stronger within Pakistan. The point for this excursion off to South Asian politics? The point is that Pakistan is no longer a threat to Persia. As for the Taliban, they are a branch of the Deobandi school, and worship in the style of the Sufi, but have beliefs that mirror the Wahhabi. Whatever they are, they are not Sunni Moslems.

So, hostility to and hatred of Israel is not a cover for something else. It is the real thing — just like Coca Cola.

What about lopping off the head of the pimple and letting it ooze? In other words, assassinating a number of top leaders? Isn't that a lot better than a nuclear strike?

Actually, this is preferable to a nuclear strike — far more preferable. But getting the squad in to do the job, and to kill enough of the right people is a very tricky business. The Persians know who would be targeted. And unless these folks have had a falling out with the establishment, they will be guarded day and night. And the Israelis will only get one shot at this effort. So, for practical purposes, this idea of assassination, good as it is, is not workable.

IV. Justifying the Killing of Millions of People in a Bombing Attack

By now, some of you reading this are wondering how I could possibly justify killing millions of people to accomplish a military goal. Isn't that genocide? Wouldn't that make us as bad as the Nazis we protest we aren't? Actually, what is proposed is not genocide, what is proposed is mass murder. Both are despicable, but there is a difference between one and the other.

Genocide is murdering off a people because of who they are. The Turks committed genocide in Armenia in 1915. The Americans committed genocide in exterminating the Indians, though their action was not systematic, and was a lot more like what the Romans did to us Jews for 600 years. To give a different example, if one were, for argument's sake, (G-d forbid such a thing were to actually be decided upon) to decide to kill off all the inhabitants of Pitcairn Island in the Pacific Ocean because of who they were, this would be genocide, even though it would involve killing perhaps a couple of hundred people at most. One would have to stretch awful hard to call such an evil undertaking "mass murder".

Mass murder, by contrast, is the murder of masses of people, without necessarily distinguishing who they are. The key element to mass murder is the number of people being killed, whereas the key element to genocide is the reason for the killings.

The Americans, in bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima have legitimized mass murder as a weapon of war. Similarly the British, in fire-bombing German cities in WWII, legitimized mass murder as a weapon of war. We Jews have to live in a brutal world where the British and the Americans write the rules. If we expect to survive, we have to be willing to use the brutal weapons of the Americans and the British as weapons of war ourselves. We, in a savage world, must be willing to be as savage as the most vicious savages on the planet. That is the way of the World of Lies and Falsehood, and until the World of Truth overtakes this awful world with Full Redemption, we must be willing to be the meanest bastards on the planet. Since the Persians are willing to see us exterminated like so many unwanted insects, we must be willing to exterminate them the same way.

Is this pleasant to consider? No. Is this a matter of vengeance? No. Is this a matter of being angry? No.

This is a matter of survival.

The Persians have threatened our existence, and no matter how they qualify those threats in the face of "world opinion" or some other load of garbage, they have gone to war against us twice to show they mean business. For us to fail to mean business, for us to fail to insure they cannot ever threaten us again is simply suicidal on our part. For too long, governments in Israel have chosen suicidal paths of action in a vain attempt to please "world opinion" or alleged "allies" like the United States. This is why it is not sufficient to merely attack nuclear facilities in an attempt to retard the development of the Persian bomb. It is the command and control centers that must be destroyed. Since we do not know where those centers are, we must destroy the widest possible range of areas to make sure that commanders and controllers do not escape to again seek to threaten our existence. This means that Tehran cannot be the only target of a first strike.

V. What about the Fallout?

By fallout, I do not mean the radioactive particles that will poison the air or water. I mean the results of such an attack. Persia itself has always been held together somewhat loosely from the center. If one were to do away with the center, Tehran, the control would be gone and the country would drift apart, falling under the control of local warlords, or under foreign powers. Israel would still face other existential threats — like America and Russia — but the most immediate existential threat would be gone. The chief means of support for HizbAllah, Syria/Lebanon and Hamas would be gone, and they would have to seek other overlords – who would have different requirements. And they would not necessarily go as a group.

Destroying the command and control centers of Persian society would not end Israel's problems. One is a fool to pretend that. There would be issues of who would control Persia, and there would be Moslem rage against Israel. But the Moslem rage would be tempered with the knowledge that Israel was willing to destroy completely cities and nations. Egypt, for example, has its own Achilles Heel, the Aswan High Dam. Destroy it and Lake Nasser floods the Nile, and the floods would be murderous to Egyptians who mostly live a few miles from the now tame Nile River.

VI. But the Persians are Innocent! Kill Them and You'll be Pariahs!

Are they?

They chose the leaders they have. These leaders they have led them down a path of disaster. The Persian people are responsible for the evil they have chosen, and for failing to overthrow it. Their leaders have chosen to threaten us with extermination – a problem we have had to face as a people before – several times. This time, our reaction to those who would exterminate us must be one to educate. The world must learn at long last that exterminating Jews is a terribly expensive business, with consequences that will last for generations. We'll be pariahs, you say? Jews have usually been pariahs in most parts of the world. So, being a pariah is nothing new, and if the world hates us, fine. Let them hate us. We should really give a shit?

It's nice to be liked. But when it comes to us Jews, the world appears to like us most — dead. Our leaders may be waking up to the fact that Israel is indeed alone, as the Torah indicates it will be. It's time for us to stop begging to be liked, to stop whining that we aren't. Our responsibility is to Living G-d of Israel and to ourselves and ourselves alone. A world that wants us dead is best ignored and allowed to stew in its own destructive juices until it destroys itself. Better to be hated and despised alive than eulogized by a world glad to see the backs of us.

Persia delenda est! Persia must be destroyed!

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About Ruvy

Hi!! Thanks for coming to my article! I was raised in Brooklyn, was graduated from the City University of New York in 1978 with a BA in political science and public administration there. I lived in Minnesota for a number of years. There I managed restaurants and wrote stories. We moved with our children family to Israel where we now reside. My work can be found at Ruvy's Roost, Jewish Indy,, and on Facebook under my full name, Reuven Kossover
  • M ar k

    Idiocy. eof

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I see you’ve changed your epithet. It used to be “Fuck that!”

    Interestingly, our frequent intelocutor can’t seem to distinguish between Ruvy’s holistic positions and mine.

    Oh well! All fundamentalists suffer from this disease because they feel they must group all views which are disagreeable with their own as anathema.

  • M ar k

    Yes. Mass murder is fundamentally anathema.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    As a matter of fact, it’s becoming more and more difficult to distinguish between Ruvy’s state of mind from that Ahmadinejad.

    In defense of the latter, one might argue it’s a matter of political posturing. But we know than in Ruvy’s case it’s definitely not that. He means it!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I agree with #3, but you missed the allusion.

  • M ar k

    yup

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Chris Rose is due for an incisive comment.
    I can’t wait.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Did either of you even read the article? Somehow, I do not think either of you did.

    Sarkozy has a force de frappé to swing around under his shorts when he isn’t pumping that model he married. But he doesn’t get on a sabon box and call for the destruction of Israel. So, as little as I like the damned frogs, I don’t say “destroy Paris”. Gordon Brown also has a nuclear cigar to smoke – and he also doesn’t say anything about destroying Israel. So I don’t say anything about destroying London. And I do have it in for the Brits for being fucking us over with the Mandate. Even the Pakistanis have their Islamic bomb that does nawaz five times a day (quite a feat for thick metal, getting down on a prayer rug). But the Pakistanis do not say “destroy Israel” either. So, there is not a peep out of me about harming Karachi or Islamabad.

    In addition, none of the above nations (except the Brits, if you count the occupation of Eretz Yisrael as going to war) went to war against this country.

    Are you getting the point here? [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yes, Ruvy, I have.
    You make an eloquent distinction, I must say, between genocide and mass murder.
    Somehow, I don’t think it will fly.

  • M ar k

    I read your piece of shit.

    By now, some of you reading this are wondering how I could possibly justify killing millions of people to accomplish a military goal. Isn’t that genocide? Wouldn’t that make us as bad as the Nazis we protest we aren’t? Actually, what is proposed is not genocide, what is proposed is mass murder.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Good try, though, analogizing the present situation to that of Rome and Carthage.
    One essential difference, though. In those days, there was no public opinion other than whatever emanated from Rome, so disputing Rome’s pronouncements was a moot point. And more importantly perhaps, Rome could back up her words with deeds.

    The little nation of Israel is hardly in that position.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Rome could back up her words with deeds. The little nation of Israel is hardly in that position.

    You haven’t figured out why we have a nuclear force at all, have you? And do you seriously think I would suggest something we couldn’t handle? Attacking the nuclear plants, enrichment facilities, etc, etc. is a lot harder than slamming one or two cities with nukes, Roger. That’s doable. I’m not sure of the real success of attacking enrichment plants. The assholes who had them built in the first place would still be around, and they are the real problem, not the machinery.

    As for Mark’s whining, he just doesn’t want to face the long-term consequences of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or the firebombing of Dresden and other German cities. These actions made destroying cities legitimate tools of war. Now that we are being threatened with extinction (as in wiped off the map), backed with action (the 2006 war in Lebanon was not a game of Risk, and the fighting in Gaza last Hanukka was not spinning dreidels), we have to be willing to use these terrible weapons of war to OUR advantage.

    As for the moral case, it goes this way;

    YOU GOYIM DID NOTHING TO STOP THE NAZIS IN THE 1930’S; YOU GOYIM DID NOTHING TO STOP THE NAZIS IN WWII; YOU DID NOTHING TO STOP THE ARABS IN 1948; YOU DID NOTHING TO STOP THEM AGAIN IN 1967; YOU DAMNED NEAR GOT THIS NATION DESTROYED IN 1973! WE DO NOT OWE YOU JACK SHIT! YOU OWE US! WE DESTROYED OSIRAK FOR YOU!

    If you want to pay your debts to us, you can blow up Tehran yourselves – you Americans have more experience at mass murder than we do, what with all that napalm you dropped in Nam and the like – and then you can get the fuck out of the Middle East.

    In the meantime, YOU OWE US! And until you have fixed the damage YOU have done in the Middle East, you haven’t got a moral leg to stand on.

    So, fuck that!

  • M a rk

    Buffalo Bill’s
    defunct
    who used to
    ride a watersmooth-silver
    stallion
    and break onetwothreefourfive pigeonsjustlikethat
    Jesus
    he was a handsome man
    and what i want to know is
    how do you like your blueeyed boy
    Mister Death

    — E. E. Cummings

  • A civilized human

    If Blofeld wrote this article would be the type of article he might write. Filled with the bitterness of hate, a lust for violence and thoughts of mass murder and revenge. I’m sure that Stalin justified his tactics in much the same way as Ruvy does here.

    There is an old expression that says you cannot put out a fire with a flame, and although a nuclear explosion may put out a single fire, it’s sure to start more than fires than it extinguishes. And as is always the case with martyrdom, those fires that start will burn hotter and with fundamentalist justification and likely with international support, than the unreasonable flame that is now destined to burn forever in the hearts and minds of all.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    All you want to do is read e.e. cummings, Mark? Nu, take you scrap of a poem to what used to be Lake Treblinka in eastern Poland, and read it over where my relatives were murdered by the Nazis. See if my dead relatives give a damn for your poetry reading.

    They are probably as impressed as I am – that is to say, not at all.

  • M ark

    You forget my status as a semi Semite and that my family was in Poland as well.

    No need to lose your soul.

    To quote some more Cummings:

    “there is some shit I will not eat”

  • Ville

    Ruvy, you are sick.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Likewise here, Mark. There’s one great movie, though, you’ve got to watch, German production, “The Counterfeiters,” along with the commentaries on DVD. I’m sure it’s listed in the Wiki.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    And as is always the case with martyrdom, those fires that start will burn hotter and with fundamentalist justification…

    I was thinking last night…what do those who justify war in Afghanistan see those Afghan children–dealing with US destruction of their families–growing up to be?

    The focus is on the ‘idea’ of war and its justification. What does this ‘idea’ have to do with what real effects war has on real people? Why is it so hard just to look and see how things really work?

    The same people who justify the US in Afghanistan will forget all about it when Afghan terrorists start flying airplanes into buildings at some future date.

    (Sorry Ruvy, I haven’t had the stomach to read your article yet. Seeing the selected quotes and all. I just wanted to respond to what A civilized human said.)

  • A civilized human

    I live in Europe and here it is a truth, universally acknowledged that going to war in Iraq/Afghanistan was absolutely wrong. I no way condoned the US or its behaviour. However if you are going to justify doing evil because evil has been done in the past you are guilty of the very thing you fight against, and doomed to repeat the past.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I’m going to rub your noses in this until they get red and raw.

    Americans and Brits wrote the rules of warfare that we must now abide by. Particularly Americans. They burst the atomic hymen and destroyed two cities. I’m not attacking that strategy. In the long run, the destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, brutal as it was, was the more humane decision to make in concluding the war with Japan.

    But once the hymen was burst, the restrained use of atomic (now nuclear) weapons was made legitimate. And Israel is rapidly approaching a position where it will need to use nuclear weapons to defend itself. Given that Israel has NO strategic depth, it cannot afford to absorb any nuclear attacks – and that is precisely what Israel is being threatened with – nuclear attacks, either from a proxy to the north or southwest, or the source in Persia.

    The location matters little. What matters is the fact that the uncivilized humans, the savage two-legged animals who call for our deaths, for our return to the ovens, for our being wiped from the map, take their orders from Tehran. Therefore, the civilized human, faced with choices that only savages should have to choose from, must, for the sake of survival, use weapons of mass murder that others have legitimized. And they must strike first, for they do not have the luxury of 5,000 kilometers of strategic depth.

    Fools will say, seeing this consideration, “you’re sick!” Or they will say, “Filled with the bitterness of hate, a lust for violence and thoughts of mass murder and revenge. I’m sure that Stalin justified his tactics in much the same way as Ruvy does here.”

    The truth is, I find it disgusting that I, a mere writer in the Shomron, should have to consider strategies that his so-called “leaders” haven’t the guts to consider. I find it disgusting, that I should have to consider the murder of five million or more civilians because my so-called “leaders” have not stood up manfully to imperialist powers pushing us over a ledge of suicide. I find it disgusting that instead of Israeli diplomats making it clear to Arabs, Persians, Americans Europeans, Russians, and the like that actions to damage this nation will be met with strong military force, that I have to call for such force. And I find it obscene that I should be condemned for doing what my so-called “leaders”, who draw NIS 50,000 monthly, haven’t either the balls or brains to do.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    I find it disgusting, that I should…consider the murder of five million or more civilians…

    I find it disgusting too. Your life isn’t worth it.

    And by ‘your’ life, I mean anyone’s life. Life becomes meaningless altogether. We are here for 100 years. That’s it! Yet people act as if they will live forever and can ‘win’ something that lasts forever by killing people–instead they lose everything. Use your time wisely.

    I like this quote, it says a lot about what we might be doing with our allotted time:

    “So what if we are mortal. We all hold some immortality in our hands.” — Paladin Heart, a Greek Anarchist

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “The truth is, I find it disgusting that I, a mere writer in the Shomron, should have to consider strategies that his so-called “leaders” haven’t the guts to consider. I find it disgusting, that I should have to consider the murder of five million or more civilians because my so-called “leaders” have not stood up manfully to imperialist powers pushing us over a ledge of suicide. I find it disgusting that instead of Israeli diplomats making it clear to Arabs, Persians, Americans Europeans, Russians, and the like that actions to damage this nation will be met with strong military force, that I have to call for such force. And I find it obscene that I should be condemned for doing what my so-called “leaders”, who draw NIS 50,000 monthly, haven’t either the balls or brains to do.”

    Perhaps there is an altogether different message you ought to derive from this diatribe – how very much out of touch you are with the rest of the world, out of touch with reality, to continue seeing the world in archaic, biblical terms.

    Believe it or not, it’s no longer just the children of Israel against the Canaanites. That little tribal conflict may be a good story to tell your children or grandchildren, but it had long ceased to occupy the attention of the world; it’s petty, parochial and trivial. Yet, you keep on configuring and reconfiguring the modern world in terms of ancient histories and fairy tales.

    Grow up. There are more important things to be concerned about than your local and petty squabbles. One way or another, we’ll resolve it for you, with your participation or liking or without.

    Your growl is impressive, but you’re still a paper tiger. And I’m sure glad for the fact that all you can do is bark.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Grow up. There are more important things to be concerned about than your local and petty squabbles. One way or another, we’ll resolve it for you, with your participation or liking or without.

    Pay close attention to what I’m telling you. Roger. I will not tell you again. Perhaps some person living in ‘Afula or S’derot will say, ma la’asót?, shrugging his shoulders, figuring that someone will take care of the big problems for him. But out here, we take care of our own problems. Up to a point, we will accept what the authorities in Jerusalem decide. But, when it is a matter of our own homes, and in Yehuda and Shomron, it is a matter of our own homes, we will be the final arbiters of the matter – or we will die in the process of being the final arbiters. We have here in these mountains, the spirit of liberty that Americans once had. You aspire after that spirit yourself, but all you see in your adopted homeland is a ghost of a spirit. I never thought to find that spirit of liberty here. It was not something I was looking for at all. But, to my pleasant surprise, I have found it. And no arrogant or obnoxious American or European – and certainly not some damned Arab or Persian – is going to take it away.

    Remember, Roger, I take shooting seriously. That’s because if I raise a gun and cock it, it will be aimed at a man’s head or heart, not some damned squirrel or duck. I bid you a good evening. The bride and I will be barbecuing hot-dogs at the La”g b’Omer bonfire in the village. Both of us are rather hungry.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, the only thing you are actually rubbing our noses in is the only thing you have to give – a myopically intense vision of such limited perception that it conjures shapes and meaning out of shadows.

    Your political and military suggestions are as naive and ill-informed as your understanding of spirituality is.

    Your only achievement is to have tainted a nook of Blogcritics with your well-written but fundamentally illiterate article.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Even if I tried, I couldn’t have put it any better. You are a heckuva debunker, Chris, of all backward thinking. And Ruvy’s is an example par excellence.

    What’s amazing is that people like that are still around. I would have thought that in this day and age there are no longer dinosaurs.

    Live and learn.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Turned out that the village bonfire was not what I had hoped ti to be so we’re grilling dogs at home. So while the dogs grill….

    Chris, your pathetic attempts to dismiss what I’ve written are singularly ineffective – though you do note that what you dislike is well written. I’ll always take a compliment – and use it where I see fit….

    Roger, in this day and age, there are still people who regard a mortal threat seriously – and are willing and able to do something about it, instead of quailing like cowards. In this case, I’ll repeat what I wrote on the second page of this article: “the article that follows calls for a preemptive nuclear strike on Tehran and such other targets in Persia that will destroy the command and control systems holding together Persian offensive military capability. Even if this attack never comes about, it is incumbent for an Israeli to lay on the table and make clear to the world the necessity for such a strike, if only to make clear to our mortal enemies that we possess the will to exterminate them as they would exterminate us.”

    In the end, Roger, we will win, because we possess the will to – and those who impede that will shall find themselves tossed onto history’s garbage pail.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Ruvy,

    I’d buy your reasoning if you were threatened personally, as Dan Miller may be when faced with the criminal element trying to break into his house and rob him blind. But I don’t buy into this analogy when it comes to nation-states. That’s where IMO it all breaks down.

    There are other mechanisms of keeping law and order, and they transcend what any single individual can do. And thank God they should. Consequently, for you to reduce this entire conflict to personal level is ludicrous, again, IMO.

    That’s where I think your difficulty lies.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Roger, where I live, the borders of nation-states do get personal. Because of a suicidal Israeli acquiescence to dictates from the States, neither my sons nor I can so much as walk from Ma’ale Levona to ‘Eli, a distance of some 4 kilometers, or to Shilo, which is a little closer to buy fruit at the fruit market there….

    You dismiss realities that I describe to you because you refuse to see that a certain point, all borders, and all political disputes do become personal. In the Shomron, that is exactly what happens. It is not so different from what used top happen at Hrubieszow during the days of the USSR – soldiers from the Ukrainian SSR would fire at animals they saw in Hrubieszow, and the villagers had to swallow the loss in silence. The Polish puppet regime dared not protest the border violations.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I think I can understand that, Ruvy. And I do understand, believe me, where you’re coming from.

    What I will say, however, is that perhaps you choose to live “on the frontiers” as it were rather than accept the international solution.

    You know we’ve been over thus before, the argument going back and forth. And perhaps I grant you that there’s no viable solution in mind. But I’ll still say that anything that could pass for a peace agreement would be better than to keep on living in the state of constant preparedness and militancy.

    I certainly wouldn’t wish it on my children.

    Life is too good to waste it on enmity and hatred and fear. And I don’t believe that God, yours or mine, would really be desirous of such an outcome.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Roger,

    I could blow my ego all out of proportion by saying I chose to live in the Shomron among the pioneers in our ancient heartland. But only a fool lies to himself, Roger. I could not afford to continue living in Jerusalem, and had to find cheap rent – and then had to find cheap rent again. It’s money, not politics, that has dictated my choice of residence and Ma’ale Levona is as cheap as it gets without moving into a trailer (called a caravan here).

    Here I live in a house, have a yard, enjoy a great view – all for a third of what I paid in Jerusalem to live in an apartment, have a bitch for a downstairs neighbor, and a whole pack of roaches that she sent me when she sprayed one year. It’s quiet, really quiet on the Sabbath, and the only worries I have here are sitting guard and paying the bills.

    I could use a coffee shop, but if I thought I could make a profit on one, I’d open it myself. I can’t.

    On the other hand….

    Nevertheless, but for the artificial barriers of the PA, the IDF, and the inciters to violence from Europe who fund groups like “Peace Now” and “Yesh G’vul”, Arabs and Jews could live in peace here.

    And all these barriers have been erected to please the shitheads in YOUR government, Roger. So, we die, literally, to please the assholes in Washington DC.

  • Baronius

    Ruvy, the question you fail to answer is, why go nuclear? Israel has set back other countries’ nuclear programs before. They’ve used targeted strikes. If you don’t know exactly where the targets are, Israel should get its spy service back in gear and find out.

    If you target 60% of the right sites and hit half of them, you’d set the program back a half-dozen years. In those few extra years, the decline of the Iranian regime will continue, most probably accelerated by the humiliation of military failure.

    After such an attack, the Arab League would complain loudly, but each member would quietly snicker or sigh in relief. There would be no consequences, except for the improvement in security. If you go nuclear, on the other hand, the consequences would be unfathomably greater.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    We’re all constrained by material circumstance, Ruvy. And you’re no exception. I have never envied a rich man, and neither have you, I’m sure. My life has been as full as that of any man, and I wouldn’t exchange it, nor was I ever envious of anyone.

    What barriers are you talking about, though? And how have we imposed them?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Baronius,

    the question you fail to answer is, why go nuclear?

    You go nuclear because the other solutions will not do the job or have such a small chance of success, you might as well not undertake them. Go read the article through one more time, and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

    The issue is getting rid of the commanders and the controllers. Stan Denham once made a very intelligent suggestion of having a group of special forces go to Teheran and murder off the right people. It’s a better solution than a pre-emptive nuclear strike – if you can pull it off.

    That’s the catch.

    You really get only one shot at such an attack. It’s like going after a nest of thieves. Once they know you are after them – I mean really after them – the security goes way way up.

    To look at it just a little differently, the Kennedy administration could have gotten rid of Castro in 1961 – if they had backed the Bay of Pigs assault. They didn’t and the Castro dictatorship was prepared for every single one of many many attempts to ditch Fidel afterwards.

    Similarly, one failure by the Israeli Mossad (and there may have already been one failure) would queer the future success of the operatives.

    That’s why you go nuclear. It gets rid of everybody in one shot. The trouble is, you get rid of so many other everybodies as well – that’s what mass murder does.

    It stinks! I can’t stand this solution. It upsets me to even suggest this idea at all. But I can’t come up with a better one, considering the existential level of the threat. So ‘m stuck with a solution that offends my moral sensibilities immensely – but appears to be the only one available.

    There is one other solution that could work: the United States could take out these nuclear facilities. L-rd knows, they have the ability to do what Israel doesn’t. But both Bush and Obama refuse to do this.

    That leaves the only solution that makes sense, considering Israel’s military capacity. Leveling Tehran (and one other city) to nuclear glass.

  • Baronius

    I’m not sold. I’m not convinced that the command and control centers are the best targets either. If you want to eliminate the threat, you’ve got to hit the physical locations – the labs and equipment.

    Alternately, you could attack their air force and anti-aircraft defenses, then take your time wiping out each nuclear facility. And there’s always infiltration and sabotage, or computer warfare. There’s also economic sabotage and inciting political unrest, neither of which should be too difficult given Iran’s current state. There is a wide variety of options.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Baronius, if you want to get rid of the threat, you need to get rid of the minds who would exterminate you – that’s command and control – the clowns running the show. That means from Rafsanjani down….

  • jon_e_7

    Just so I’m clear, Ruvy, you’re OK with the U.S. turning off the money-tap to Israel ?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    Have you noticed that – despite the several documented times that America and the Soviet Union were within as little as an hour before launching a nuclear strike – we did not begin a nuclear war?

    Have you noticed that no nuclear-armed country has ever struck a nuclear-armed country?

    There’s reasons for these facts.

    The day Israel launches a preemptive nuclear strike on another country is the day that Israel will FOREVER lose every ally on the planet…

    …and what is worse, such an act would not only JUSTIFY anti-Semitism, but it would SILENCE those who would otherwise stand against anti-Semitism…and may very well enable another Holocaust against which the Nazis’ war crimes would pale in comparison.

    This is hard for conservatives and far-right Zionists to understand, but much of what protects the Jews of the world is not only money, not only force of arms, but SYMPATHY and determination to not allow another genocide.

    BUT should the victims themselves then commit genocide – for such is what a nuclear attack really is – then you lose all sympathy, all monetary and logistical support that you now receive, and any military support that you might otherwise receive.

    Sun Tzu once said that the acme of generalship is to achieve victory without resorting to battle. In other words, the best generals use diplomatic and economic maneuver to achieve aims.

    Bush and Cheney never understood that. Apparently, neither do you.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    AND in addition to the above, should Israel eliminate Iran, then there is no opposing balance against the Sunni countries. Then all 1.2 billion Muslims, some ‘Christians’, and many others would be united against Israel…which would then find herself without a friend to help defend her.

    Currently, it is longstanding U.S. policy that we would help defend you should other countries declare war on you. The Israeli lobby is strong enough that, should any politician renege on that promise, he would have NO chance at reelection.

    However, if you preemptively nuke another country, you will find yourself in a hopeless situation – because you only have a limited number of nukes…and you would have NO prospect of other countries coming to your rescue.

    If you cannot understand the clear and irrefutable logic of my last two posts, Ruvy, then please do no take any offense at this, but I think you may very well need help.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Oh – and one more thing!

    Nuclear bombs can be stored for only so long before the fissionable material inside decays to the point that it is no longer practically fissionable.

    What the ‘shelf life’ may be of those weapons I do not know, but I suspect it may be less than a generation. You see, it’s not as if the bomb’s good for the duration of the half-life of the fissionable material inside. In fact, the margin between prime fissionable material and material that would ‘fizzle’ (as North Korea’s first attempt did) isn’t as much as you might think.

    In other words, the nukes Israel has may very well be duds by now…ALL of them.

    Which means that Israel has to resort to a strategy of threat and bluff…and hope that no one calls your bluff.

    Come to think of it, Saddam Hussein had to play the same game…and did so successfully until the world that believed his threats took him too seriously.

    You see, Ruvy, currently Israel can deal from a position of strength. It would be FAR wiser to use that strength to build a network of friends and allies – and to build your economy to the point that the rest of the Middle East NEEDS you.

    You see, China HATES us…but they continue to buy our bonds (loan us money) because if our recession turns into a depression…so does theirs.

    Thus the saying, keep your friends close, but your enemies closer. Learn to play CHESS, Ruvy – not ‘King of the Hill’.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I live in Europe and here it is a truth, universally acknowledged that going to war in Iraq/Afghanistan was absolutely wrong.

    I live in the US where it is a truth, acknowledged by most sensible people, that people in Europe are so deluded that they have no idea what’s right or wrong.

    Dave

  • Baronius

    Ruvy, you could just as easily say, “if you want to get rid of the threat, take away your enemy’s power to follow through on it”. If you leave half-assembled nuclear technology in Iran and destroy the government, some future government will eventually assemble it. If you take away the Iranian government’s nuclear threat, you’ll leave a weakling in Asia which will be swarmed by its rivals.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    For the record, Baronius is dead right in #32. If Israel acts, that is what they will do and he probably called the consequences right too.

    Dave

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Dave, I’m sure you realize that ‘Civilized’, in paraphrasing Pride and Prejudice, failed to register that Austen was being sarcastic.

    Just as I realize that so are you.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Just so I’m clear, Ruvy, you’re OK with the U.S. turning off the money-tap to Israel?

    If you look over my 120 odd articles here, as well as my comments since November 2005, you will see that I view that money tap as a form of American imperial control, rather than “help”. Of course, I want it turned off.

    Israel needs to be weaned off of the big checkbook, big ego, know-it-all American Jews who don’t know jack shit about how we really live here, as well as the Arabist monkeys in the State department who want to rectify the “historic error” of creating a “Jewish entity” here by gradually destroying Israel.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Glenn,

    You can’t lose what you don’t have.

    Israel has NO allies on the planet. Let’s repeat that so that it is absolutely clear in your head. Israel has NO allies on the planet. Israel once thought it had one ally in the 1950’s and 1960’s – France. But in June 1967, de Gaulle turned 180 degrees and embraced the Arabs. He fucked over the Israeli government by refusing to deliver a bunch of Super-Mystères they had already paid for. That’s why Shim’on Peres arranged for the theft of French nuclear material in 1970 so that we could build bombs. We figured out the missiles ourselves. We fucked over the French in return.

    The American government has never been an ally to this country. It blocked arms shipments to the haganá and etze”l before independence, refused any arms shipments here after independence, pressured ben-Gurion not to declare independence before May 1948; forced Rabin to withdraw from advanced positions in the Sinai in 1949; refused to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel; attempted to hamstring Israeli anti-terror action through the 1950’s; forced Israel to withdraw from the Sinai in 1956; tried to bully the Israelis into not attacking in 1967; sent a task force to Cyprus to intervene in the fighting in case Israel won in 1967 (but the IDF was too fast for the not overfast Army Intelligence task force); had her spy ship (the USS Liberty) transmit data to Egypt on tank movements in the Sinai during the 1967 war; tried to bully Israel into giving up Judea and Samaria from the day fighting ended in 1967; bullied Israel into not attacking in 1973; nearly welshed on the arms replacement deal reached in return for taking thousands of needless casualties; forced Israel to withdraw from Egypt, and Syria in 1973-74; shoved this damned “Oslo Accord” down Israel’s throat; and since 1990, has intervened in Israeli internal affairs as if we were their damned colony. That’s not an ally. All military aid to Israel has come with colonial like conditions – of course we want your damned money tap turned of. And now, since you haven’t any money….

    Are you seriously threatening me that if we use our nuclear arsenal to take out Tehran the world will hate us? Do you want me to spit my water all over my keyboard and screen in laughter? I saw what has happened to any sympathy towards Jews since 1972. I remember African aid recipient after African aid-recipient breaking off diplomatic ties with Israel in 1973. I remember the condemnation we were forced to endure for daring to survive an Arab attack in 1973. I remember Arafat at the UN. I remember the attacks at the Athens airport, the kidnapping of a plane to Uganda in 1976, the terror bombs in Ma’alot, and the way the world DIDN’T give a damn then, the way it still doesn’t give a damn now. Don’t make me laugh in contempt at you, Glenn.

    The world hates Jews. That doesn’t mean we have to give a shit what you think. In fact, the 1973 war was an object lesson to us. We are alone in the world. Obama’s behavior towards our Chief of Staff, our President, and now what i expect will be towards our prime minister only outlines and underlines that fact.

    You are still the same genocidal savages you were BEFORE Moses came down from Sinai with two tablets of law. You learned NOTHING from the Nazi holocaust; the world, particularly the Arab world, is still in love with Hitler, and several genocides have wracked this planet since 1945. You still practice slavery, sexual and otherwise throughout the planet. You are still the uncivilized apes your were 3,300 years ago.

    You cannot lose what you do not have. And you do not have a moral leg to stand on. Our Persian neighbor to the east wants to exterminate us; and your government wants us to take the blame for that extermination. That is what Caroline Glick’s article referenced at the beginning of mine deals with.

    You do not have any moral authority to speak, not to mention moral authority to speak of.

    Yet, for me to recommend the killing of 5 million Persians in a nuclear attack leaves a taste of disgust in my mouth. Were it not for the existential threat from Iran, demonstrated twice in war, I would never recommend such a thing. But it is not genocide. You still cannot distinguish between genocide and mass murder, I see.

    You made one intelligent point, though, and I’ll give you credit for it. That is the issue of the half-life of the nuclear materials Israel possesses. If it is true that all of our bombs are duds (it may be) then we are in the position I warned others we would be; where we cannot win, and where we cannot afford to fight, and where we cannot afford to compromise. If that is true, we will need to rely on G-d to provide Redemption, as we certainly cannot rely on the American government.

  • Jordan Richardson

    The world hates Jews.

    The world also hates homosexuals, white people, black people, heterosexuals, women, pornography, anti-pornography, mimes, banana cream pie, elephant jokes, Republicans, Democrats, LOLcats, fudge, fudge processing plants, apples, oranges, hockey, baseball, football, meat, vegetarians, traffic, public restrooms, applesauce, Hitler, God, atheists, rubber, condoms, safe sex, sex, Sarah Palin, and The Muppets.

    You’re not “alone in the world,” Ruve. You just fucking wish you were.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Also interesting that this piece of genocidal tripe is being advertised on our front page.

    Bravo.

    Murderous advocation of nuclear conflict is certainly the message I want associated with Blogcritics alongside a DVD review of fucking Galaxy Quest and a House season finale preview.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    If you can solve the mystery word from those three clues, Jordan, you win a prize

  • Mich

    Apparently, Ruvy has some deep emotional and psychological issues. He needs help for his back-seated anger and hatred which desperately looking for an object to release that.
    I am worried about his family.
    Poor people.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jordan,

    No national leader has called for all of these categories of things or people you’ve named to be wiped off the map of the world; a difference you seem unable to comprehend. That is known as an existential threat.

    Just like a death threat – only a whole lot bigger – a genocidal threat. Enemies who make existential and genocidal threats should be eliminated. If my leaders in Israel don’t have the balls to do that, at least an Israeli should open his mouth and holler as loud as he can that these enemies should be exterminated and why, and why a lesser solution is inadequate.

    That’s what this article is all about.

    If that bothers you, maybe you should write an article explaining to the world in rational terms why Jews under existential threat in their own homeland should do nothing and go to the slaughter without complaint – like their grandparents did in the death ovens of Adolf Hitler. That is what all the bullshit answers I’ve gotten on the comment thread amount to, when carried out to their logical conclusion. Your article should make interesting reading.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Apparently, Ruvy has some deep emotional and psychological issues….I am worried about his family. Poor people.

    Yup! My “issue” is that I’m willing to stare reality in the face, while people like you bury their heads in the sand.

    REALITY isn’t pretty, Mich. It’s much more fun to watch Star Trek prequels, House, 24…. and to scream yourself hoarse at baseball games.

    By the way, I’m talking to my wife as I write this comment. She just got home from Jerusalem because the Bishop of Rome’s gallavanting about Jerusalem has caused just about every street to be closed down there. So she couldn’t go to work.

    This is what she says, “it’s not okay for us to want to destroy our enemies, but it’s alright for them to hate us, and want us wiped off the map, right?”

    Perhaps, Mich, from those founts of wisdom of yours, you would like to answer her?

    More crap.

  • Sasha Shepherd

    In the meantime, YOU OWE US! And until you have fixed the damage YOU have done in the Middle East, you haven’t got a moral leg to stand on.

    Well, the West has done a great deal of damage in the middle east, and has committed an irreperable harm to the Jewish people. Namely, by allowing the state of Israel to be formed where it was in the first place.

    The great gift given to the Jewish people: a patch of desert in a forever hostile land. A prison camp, a military installation, that will be forever besieged and forever at war. That has insecurity and strife woven into it’s very DNA.

    The Jews might have lived there 2000 years ago – but that is a long damned time. The Native Americans lived in Manhattan 300 years ago, where is the rush to give it back to them?

    Here is an analogy:

    So, you had a house, in a nice neighborhood. A nice, clean victorian – your great grandfater built it, it was passed through the generations. But then, through some sort of fraud or agression, you lost the house, and had to live in insecurity, hopping from apartment to apartment for many years – always remembering this fine house. Years pass. Over the years, the neighborhood turned, became not so nice – street gangs, crack dealers, prostitutes on the street. Became a rotten, dangerous place. The house is now lived in by gang members. In fact, so many years have passed that you have too, and your great-grandchildren remember the tales they have heard of this fine house, seen the pictures. Finally, one year, the winds shift, and your progeny have a chance to reclaim it. They stubbornly refuse to recognize the present reality, and cling to the stories of how nice this fine house in its clean neighborhood once was. But, the gangs and the thugs are envious of the house, and are constantly trying to break in and harm your family. But they hold on to the idea of somehow turning the neighborhood into a sparkling place again. So they spend all of their money on security equipment, and organize vigilante raids into the headquarters of the various criminal gangs, sparking more retribution and focusing the disparate gang factions around a common enemy. Finally, one day the house is burned to the ground, and your great grandchildren is where he was in the first place – except his children burned in the fire.

    Mark my words – if a nuclear first attack is committed against Iran, it will result in the nuclear annihilation of Israel within the next 50 to 100 years, if not less. You must consider the long, multi-generational scope, as the Muslims certainly do. All human beings have some kind of conscious, and the actions of all groups of men are limited by the idea of what is considered acceptable within their society. The reason that a nuclear kamizake jet hasn’t landed in Tel Aviv is that among the great majority of Muslims, even those who hate Israel, the idea of launching a nuclear attack on Israel seems too inhuman and suicidal to seriously consider. Should Israel launch a nuclear first strike against Iran, all such inhibitions would be lifted, and the whole collective intelligence of the Muslim world would come together on finding a way to land one or several nuclear devices in Israel. Eventually, they would succeed.

    In reality, Jews should abandon the idea of Israel being the sole hope of the Jewish people, the sole redemption of world Jewry. Not that they should abandon Israel entirely, but they should instead focus on countries that have a deeply ingrained history of tolerance and plurality. The goal is preserving the history and integrity of the Jewish people, and this is not a goal that can ultimately be achieved through military means.

    Trying to militarily defend Israel is like trying to bail out a sinking ocean liner with buckets. It is like children who have built a sand castle at the beach watching the tide come in, and furiously building walls and trenches around it to protect their work from the encroaching sea. It might help for a time, but in the big picture it is going against the tide of history, and will eventually fail.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, actually your issue is that you THINK you’re “willing to stare reality in the face”, but in fact you’re not.

    I don’t know you well enough to be certain why that is, but I suspect that it is your prolonged exposure to the non-linear thought of your impressionist faith that makes you see fact where there is only supposition and prevents you understanding the difference between rhetoric and action.

    The truth of the matter is that there is as much evidence to support your political ideas as there is your religion, meaning none.

    You are in fact displaying a kind of mental premature ejaculation, gushing forth your solutions to events that haven’t happened. I really hope that politics and religion are the only areas of your life that you are experiencing this embarrassing condition…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Sasha (#53).

    I like your comment. Yes, that’s Ruvy’s last stand, and that’s how he feels about it – even of the entire world (including Israel) will go to hell in a handbasket.

    The fortunate thing is – this little petty local squabble that goes back 2000 years is but a storm in a teacup. It’s not going to draw the entire world into war. And after the dust settles, Israel will be no more.

    But Ruvy doesn’t care I guess as long as biblical prophecies are fulfilled.

  • M a Rk

    imo it’s all a Ruvy ruse to put Israel in an untenable position requiring – so he believes – his god’s intervention. A less than stellar plan.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Not a stellar plan if for one reason only: He’s trying to second-guess God.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I apologize, BTW, for that remark. It was poor form and I should have phrased it differently.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Sasha,

    I do not know if you are Jewish or not, but it appears to me from the consonance of your remarks that you do0 not understand Jewish history.

    Jews were forced into exile by the Romans over a 600 year period, during which they (the Romans) committed what amounted to genocide against us in our land, in Cyprus, Egypt, Cyrenaica, and other parts of the empire. The result was that Jews fled east to Babylon, and west to Europe.

    Since the destruction of the Temple of Herod in 70 CE there has been NO security in Jewish communal life.

    Since we’ve returned home, that security has begun to return, to a small degree. And I cannot emphasize this too strongly, this is home.

    In reality, Jews should abandon the idea of Israel being the sole hope of the Jewish people, the sole redemption of world Jewry. Not that they should abandon Israel entirely, but they should instead focus on countries that have a deeply ingrained history of tolerance and plurality. The goal is preserving the history and integrity of the Jewish people, and this is not a goal that can ultimately be achieved through military means.

    When I was a kid, I lived in Brooklyn. At the time, one of our family friends talked of moving to Israel. I looked at him and told him that there are more Jews in New York City than all of Israel? Why would any Jew want to move there?

    Now, consider, Sasha. Today, instead of 2.1 million Jews living in Israel and 2½ million living in New York City, over 5½ million Jews live in Israel. And in a city of 8 million, the same population as there was 50 years ago, there are only 1.75 million Jews. The demographics have fundamentally changed and Israel is the center of Jewish life, not America, a fact that American Jews do not particularly like – if they care about being Jews at all.

    Then there is the simple concept that if Jews give up Israel, they might as well forget about being Jews. When you say grace after meals, you pray for the rebuilding of Jerusalem; three times a day, you pray that G-d will gather His exiles from the four corners of the earth and bring them home. Now if you do none of these things after a generation or two, you forget who you are – except when the goyim talk about jewing down the price of something or the Jews killing Jesus or some other bullshit – or when someone decides to kill you because you are a Jew. The German Jews all thought Berlin was better than Jerusalem – until the Germans began beating the shit out of them, smashing the windows of their stores, banning them from working in banks, schools, etc., making them wear yellow stars, stealing their property. All of a sudden, Jerusalem started looking very very good! And German Jews who sniffed contemptuously at living in the Middle East ran like mice from the dripping jaws of the evil animals out to kill them.

    This had all happened before. And Jews would pack up, go to the land of some other goyisher prince and pray that he wouldn’t kill them, tax them unfairly, rape their wives. And always the goyisher princes eventually disappointed them. But now the opportunity to go to the Land of Israel was available, and these German Jews took it joyfully. The population of Israel did not grow merely because of natural increase. Jews from round the world fled the various hells they lived in seeking refuge and security from the goyim.

    What American Jews keep telling themselves is “it can’t happen here”. In January, 1963, I watched a movie with my mother on TV when the movie was interrupted by a news bulletin announcing the overthrow and murder of Sylvanus Olympio. My nother told me, “that can’t happen here”. Being the sarcastic snot I was, I said “yeah?”

    Eleven months later, the president of the United States was murdered in a car in Dallas. So, when American Jews say, “it can’t happen here,” I remember the dead Sylvanus Olympio and my mother’s false optimism.

    The day will come when Jews in America will be blamed for the bad times that strike you, (¼ of non-Jew already blame Jews for the economic problems there now) and when the accusation of Jews stabbing you in the back will be common speech – and people will want to do something to get the greedy yids back.

    There is no future in the exile for the Jewish people. In exile, they can only be the sugar in someone else’s coffee – destined to be absorbed and to cease to exist. Giving up on Israel is the equivalent of walking into a gas chamber and having the gas murder your identity, if not you. That has already happened to millions of Jews in Europe, America and South America, a silent holocaust that does not kill people – but that surely kills a People.

    Your solution has been tried for 2,000 years and it is a non-starter, leading in the to rape, murder and massacre.

    In addition, you fail to take into account the Jewish books of prophecy that predict the return of our people to our land. A prophecy is only good if it happens. And the return of Jews to Israel en masse has happened, the revival of the Hebrew language has happened. The warnings in the Talmud that the Galilee would be destroyed in war has happened, the warning that “three buildings would fall on one day in the New City” from the Holy Zohar has happened. Discounting Jewish prophecy, when it keeps happening is not smart, Sasha, and you discount Jewish prophecy as though it did not even exist. This is not wise, no matter what faith you believe (or do not believe) in. If the predictions of an old tome keep recurring, it is wise to pay attention to it.

    There is a prophecy that can be interpreted to mean that a nuclear bomb will explode in Israel: it describes the kinds of things that would happen to people facing where the bomb exploded from a distance. Before the development of nuclear weapons, this prophecy never would have been read this way, and it was read instead as a mysterious plague.

    And this shall be the plague wherewith HaShem will smite all the peoples that have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their sockets, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. [Zechariah 14:12] Jewish Publication Society, 1917.

    Slightly different language is found in newer translations of the Zechariah.

  • Baronius

    Wow, Ruvy, I’m sorry. I’ve been totally misreading your comments for years now. You’re Jewish?

  • Clavos

    LOL, Bar!!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Sasha,

    I do not know if you are Jewish or not, but it appears to me from the consonance of your remarks that you do0 not understand Jewish history.

    Jews were forced into exile by the Romans over a 600 year period, during which they (the Romans) committed what amounted to genocide against us in our land, in Cyprus, Egypt, Cyrenaica, and other parts of the empire. The result was that Jews fled east to Babylon, and west to Europe.

    Since the destruction of the Temple of Herod in 70 CE there has been NO security in Jewish communal life.

    Since we’ve returned home, that security has begun to return, to a small degree. And I cannot emphasize this too strongly, this is home.

    In reality, Jews should abandon the idea of Israel being the sole hope of the Jewish people, the sole redemption of world Jewry. Not that they should abandon Israel entirely, but they should instead focus on countries that have a deeply ingrained history of tolerance and plurality. The goal is preserving the history and integrity of the Jewish people, and this is not a goal that can ultimately be achieved through military means.

    When I was a kid, I lived in Brooklyn. At the time, one of our family friends talked of moving to Israel. I looked at him and told him that there are more Jews in New York City than all of Israel? Why would any Jew want to move there?

    Now, consider, Sasha. Today, instead of 2.1 million Jews living in Israel and 2½ million living in New York City, over 5½ million Jews live in Israel. And in a city of 8 million, the same population as there was 50 years ago, there are only 1.75 million Jews. The demographics have fundamentally changed and Israel is the center of Jewish life, not America, a fact that American Jews do not particularly like – if they care about being Jews at all.

    Then there is the simple concept that if Jews give up Israel, they might as well forget about being Jews. When you say grace after meals, you pray for the rebuilding of Jerusalem; three times a day, you pray that G-d will gather His exiles from the four corners of the earth and bring them home. Now if you do none of these things after a generation or two, you forget who you are – except when the goyim talk about jewing down the price of something or the Jews killing Jesus or some other bullshit – or when someone decides to kill you because you are a Jew. The German Jews all thought Berlin was better than Jerusalem – until the Germans began beating the shit out of them, smashing the windows of their stores, banning them from working in banks, schools, etc., making them wear yellow stars, stealing their property. All of a sudden, Jerusalem started looking very very good! And German Jews who sniffed contemptuously at living in the Middle East ran like mice from the dripping jaws of the evil animals out to kill them.

    This had all happened before. And Jews would pack up, go to the land of some other goyisher prince and pray that he wouldn’t kill them, tax them unfairly, rape their wives. And always the goyisher princes eventually disappointed them. But now the opportunity to go to the Land of Israel was available, and these German Jews took it joyfully. The population of Israel did not grow merely because of natural increase. Jews from round the world fled the various hells they lived in seeking refuge and security from the goyim.

    What American Jews keep telling themselves is “it can’t happen here”. In January, 1963, I watched a movie with my mother on TV when the movie was interrupted by a news bulletin announcing the overthrow and murder of Sylvanus Olympio. My nother told me, “that can’t happen here”. Being the sarcastic snot I was, I said “yeah?”

    Eleven months later, the president of the United States was murdered in a car in Dallas. So, when American Jews say, “it can’t happen here,” I remember the dead Sylvanus Olympio and my mother’s false optimism.

    The day will come when Jews in America will be blamed for the bad times that strike you, (¼ of non-Jew already blame Jews for the economic problems there now) and when the accusation of Jews stabbing you in the back will be common speech – and people will want to do something to get the greedy yids back.

    There is no future in the exile for the Jewish people. In exile, they can only be the sugar in someone else’s coffee – destined to be absorbed and to cease to exist. Giving up on Israel is the equivalent of walking into a gas chamber and having the gas murder your identity, if not you. That has already happened to millions of Jews in Europe, America and South America, a silent holocaust that does not kill people – but that surely kills a People.

    Your solution has been tried for 2,000 years and it is a non-starter, leading in the to rape, murder and massacre.

    In addition, you fail to take into account the Jewish books of prophecy that predict the return of our people to our land. A prophecy is only good if it happens. And the return of Jews to Israel en masse has happened, the revival of the Hebrew language has happened. The warnings in the Talmud that the Galilee would be destroyed in war has happened, the warning that “three buildings would fall on one day in the New City” from the Holy Zohar has happened. Discounting Jewish prophecy, when it keeps happening is not smart, Sasha, and you discount Jewish prophecy as though it did not even exist. This is not wise, no matter what faith you believe (or do not believe) in. If the predictions of an old tome keep recurring, it is wise to pay attention to it.

    There is a prophecy that can be interpreted to mean that a nuclear bomb will explode in Israel: it describes the kinds of things that would happen to people facing where the bomb exploded from a distance. Before the development of nuclear weapons, this prophecy never would have been read this way, and it was read instead as a mysterious plague.

    And this shall be the plague wherewith HaShem will smite all the peoples that have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their sockets, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. [Zechariah 14:12] Jewish Publication Society, 1917.

    Slightly different language is found in newer translations of the Zechariah.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Ruvy,

    You keep on posting the same message over and over again. Repeating it ad infinitum is not going to make it any more true.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    The truth shouldn’t need constant repetition, Roger. And I’m telling the truth. All sorts of idiots on this list can’t seem to comprehend this. I won’t mention any names, though, tempted though I am, Roger.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    The truth should not have to be repeated endlessly Roger – but idiots who can’t figure it out need it repeated.

    If you have trouble realizing that what I’m telling is the truth, well, what can I say? The comments policy forbids personal attacks, you know.

  • Baronius

    Ruvy – I think Roger was being literal, that the thread did have the exact same comment from you repeated over and over. As of this moment, #59 and #62 are the same, and there had been more copies.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yes, I was, Baronius. And thank you.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    I live in the US where it is a truth, acknowledged by most sensible people, that people in Europe are so deluded that they have no idea what’s right or wrong. – Dave

    There is a reason to be grateful for not having been able to have children–Dave could never have been their teacher.

  • Sasha Shepherd

    Ruvy,

    Thank you for your well thought out and interesting reply. While I have some Jewish blood, I am not Jewish, you are right. But I certainly understand the plight and challenges the Jewish people have faced, and I understand why Israel was founded and why some feel so passionately about it. I am not questioning the goal of preserving the Jewish People in security, I am talking strategically about the best way to do that.

    I am arguing that there is a value in diaspora – especially in this interconnected age where everyone knows what is going on in each corner of the globe, and it is possible to stay connected through all sorts of circumstances.

    Yes, now there are five million Jews living in Israel..surrounded on all sides by hostile and unstable nations with the possibility to acquire nuclear weapons in the next decade, from one source or another.

    It is never wise to put all your eggs in one basket, that is what I am arguing there. If these scriptural prophecies have all come to pass, then is there any way to prevent this grim prophecy that you cite? It seems the best defense is to spread the Torah to the four corners of the globe.

    Presently, there is some ambivelance among the Arab populations about Israel. Certainly, the vast majority strongly dislike it. But, not all support violent action against Israel. Most people are more interested in their day to day affairs, putting food on the table, and their personal safety that geopolitics – as the people of Israel are.

    If Israel should take an action that threatens the health and safety of the whole Arab population, as blanketing the middle east in nuclear fallout would, the focus of day to day survival for many people would start to center around eradicating Israel. We could expect to see more and more radical government elected around the region, with leadership whose whole raison d’etre is landing a nuclear device inside Israel, like Iran today but worse. Eventually, someone would find a way to smuggle one out of Pakistan.

    In the very long term, a nuclear first strike on Iran would be used to justify genocide of Jews 500 years in the future. In the interest of short term security, it would be a catastrophically suicidal move for the Jewish people.

    It would be worth studying Sun Tzu’s Art of War, or perhaps Newton’s Third Law of of Motion.

    Sasha

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Sasha,

    There is set of another prophecies, one that was made in 1930 by the scholar known in Jewish circles as Hafetz Haim, a Polish scholar who lived in Radin Poland, and who died in 1933.

    The Hafetz Haim had warned in 1930 that in a decade there would be horrors for Jews in Europe that would make the then recent Great War, and the Russo-Polish war that followed, look like a picnic in the park. A yeshiva head, a man who took the Hafetz Hayim seriously, asked him if there would be any escapees from this disaster, and where the escape would be. The Hafetz Haim cited the Torah in giving his answer, which he gave immediately. He said that Jacob, when facing his brother Esav after crossing the river Yabok in the north, divided his camp in two in case Esav should kill one, that the other would survive. The yeshiva head, reassured slightly, asked where the surviving camp might be. The Hafetz Haim cited the Tana”kh, saying that the people would be safe in the Land of Israel.

    The Hafetz Haim accurately foretold of the death camps that killed 95% of the Jews in Poland, and a third of our people. And he accurately foretold of where the remainder would be safe – Israel. Notice, Sasha. The Hafetz Haim did not say the Americas or Australia. Why? Because whilt the physical Jew was safe in America and Australia, the spirit of the Jew was not – and that is what has happened in the last 6 decades to Jews in the once prosperous United States and the still prosperous Australia. Their identity is being worn away.

    The cold fact of the matter is that the exile is almost over. Jews who insist on remaining in exile will find that unless they tie their fates closely to Israel, their Jewish identity will die also. And this too, is happening. Only in Israel will Jewish identity survive.

    Further, Sasha, Persians are not Arabs. Arabs are nervous about Persians, and taking them out will relieve Arab anxiety about being taken over by the Persians once more.

    In addition, do not assume that the Arabs can win in a war against us. The Egyptian leadership is not stupid, and understands the terrible Achilles Heel in the south of their country. Go look at the article again. A government that destroys Tehran will not stop at destroying Egypt entirely if threatened. Similar dangers lie in place for the Thugdom of the Wahhabi. The Arabs may rage in the streets – but they always rage in the streets. Beating up on the evil Zionist is nothing new to them. Burning the flag that bears the Shield of Solomon is nothing new either. And the American regime, always anti-Israel covertly, is now shedding its mask and becoming overtly anti-Israel. There is nothing to lose here for us.

    Only one danger lies ahead. If our nuclear weapons are indeed duds, as one commenter posited that they might be at this point, then we have no nuclear arsenal – and if we have no nuclear arsenal, then our enemies will surely strike, sure that they can win and massacre us, wiping us from the face of the earth.

    The possibility that our nuclear arsenal might be duds is the only reason not to use them – and not to sign the NPT either, as this preserves the illusion that they still might be useful. It is the one possibility I did not consider in my article.

    As for the rest, we are in G-d’s Hands, and must rely on Him. But the truth is that we are always in G-d’s Hand, and always must rely on Him. This vulnerability drives the point home.

    Finally, let’s deal with this observation of yours.

    In the very long term, a nuclear first strike on Iran would be used to justify genocide of Jews 500 years in the future. In the interest of short term security, it would be a catastrophically suicidal move for the Jewish people.

    The faith promises Redemption at the End of Days. Looking at events and the way they are occurring now indicates that the End of Days are upon us – NOW. Our sages posit a cycle of time of 6,000 years and that Redemption will occur at the very latest, at the end of that 6,000 year cycle. The cycle ends in 231 years. But they argue that the Redemption will occur 210 years prior. That’s 21 years from now.

    If we are still awaiting the messianic Redemption after 210 years, most Jews will throw in the towel and say “screw it, we were played for suckers”. Today’s rabbis are just to cowardly to come up with something that will suffice if 2,000 years of Talmudic teaching proves false.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Too cowardly? That would be like pulling the rabbit out of the hat.

  • Baronius

    Ruvy, you and I both believe in prophecy. The problem is, we don’t know when it will come to pass. It’s easy to read Ezekiel’s bleached bones and think of the recent restoration of Israel, but it could just as easily refer to a prior restoration of Israel, or a future one.

    You mentioned St. Malacy’s prophecy about the popes, which indicates that there will only be one more. Yeah, it’s ominous, but we don’t know for certain that it’s correct, or even that it was intended to be a complete list. You refer to your sages and a 6000 year cycle, but is that universally agreed upon? Sages have seen the final hour upon us since the beginning of history. You can’t even really say that “our sages” posit any one thing.

    You’d have to be a fool to not see the potential fulfillment of prophecy in our days. But should we be betting on it? People saw it in 70AD, in the Crusades, in the Napoleanic era, and in the birth of the atomic bomb.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Baronius,

    You’d have to be a fool to not see the potential fulfillment of prophecy in our days. But should we be betting on it? People saw it in 70AD, in the Crusades, in the Napoleanic era, and in the birth of the atomic bomb.

    Every time I talk about prophecy, I qualify it somehow. In the case of St. Malachy, I said it was a prophecy of sorts. It seems to me that the Vatican may be behaving as if it believes that the prophecy is true.

    Also, with this particular prophecy, there is the issue of human choice. Whichever red-hat succeeds Ratzinger as Bishop of Rome can choose the name “Peter”. Remember, Joseph Ratzinger has chosen to be known as Benedict, Karol Wojtla chose to be known as John Paul II.

    As for the prophecies in the Hebrew Bible, I’ve mentioned those in comment #62 that have appeared to come true already. The warnings of the Hafetz Haim HAVE come true already. As for the cycle of time in the rabbinic calendar, if Redemption does not come “on time” that will be the straw that breaks the back of a religion of remembrance. “On time” by the numbers gives us 231 years – but according to Talmudic tradition, it is supposed to have been completed by the year 5790 – 20 years from now, come October.

    Even patient Jews will wait only so long. If they feel that they have been played for suckers by their teachers (these teachings are pretty old), they will turn on their teachers and walk away from the faith.

    I believe with full faith that Redemption will occur, and that it will occur within the timetable our sages have set forth – and I am certain that it will occur within 231 years. But if my great-grandson or great-great grandson does not see the Redemption, I cannot guarantee their full faith.

    I don’t ever bet on prophecy coming true. If I think I see it occurring, however, I will not hesitate to say so.

  • Mark Schannon

    It’s interesting that no one has commented on Ruvy’s numerous statements that he hates this nuclear solution–finds it abhorrent –but can’t think of another way to erase the threat Persia clearly poses for Israel.

    First, anyone who doubts that the lunatics in Teheran have been backing Israel’s most dangerous enemies needs to stop writing and start reading.

    Second, from an Israeli point of view, how can one evaluate the risks of a Iranian nuke hitting Israel should the loonies create one?

    Third, if an honest and thorough risk assessment of the likelihood of a nuclear attack leads one to consider it a grave threat…and other options (U.S. or NATO intervention, commando attacks to take out Iranian leadership, conventional bombing, etc.) are determined to be either unrealistic or unworkable…then what should Israel do?

    Option 1: Do nothing, aware that the international community doesn’t have the balls to confront Iran, and knowing there’s a high risk of being deep fried in a nuclear holocaust.

    OR

    Option 2: Strike first, understanding that one can not begin to guess what the consequences will be.

    OR

    Option 3: Leave Israel and invade Lithuania.

    Ruvy can be a mite didactic and strident at times. It’s part of his charm. But to reject what’s he’s saying because it offends our delicate sensibilities, we living safely in a land where torture and invasion of our privacy have given us that illusion of safety, is to mount a box in Hyde Park and orate to the pigeons.

    In other comments, I’ve noted that I cannot see a road to peace, nor can I see a reasonable end-game with Ruvy’s proposal.

    This intractable dilemma deserves serious debate. It’s not getting it here.

    And that’s the truth…

    In Jameson Veritas

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    it describes the kinds of things that would happen to people facing where the bomb exploded from a distance.

    From a distance? No. The whole flesh-stripping thing would be reserved for those within radius of the initial airburst.

    From a distance, if you were unlucky enough to be looking directly at the explosion, you’d probably go instantly and permanently blind. That, however, would be about it – unless you were stupid enough to stick around and cop some fallout, but the symptoms of radiation poisoning are not what is described in the prophecy.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Mark,

    Thank you so much for your comment here. I appreciate the support. Note that Mark often disagrees with me on many issues. I do dislike the solution I have proposed. I did review Warday at Blogcritics, a novel about the consequences of a nuclear exchange. I’m not unaware of the terrible human consequences that nuclear attacks can have. But I see no better solution to the real existential problem we face in Israel. Come up with a better one, any of you; I’m always willing to listen.

    DD,

    I’m willing to sit corrected. My own interpretation of Zech. 14:12 was extrapolated from a nightmare I had in 1981 where I sort of “saw” a nuclear explosion, and my mother looked at me, screamed and fainted, and with my failing vision I saw in a mirror that one of my eyes had melted….

  • Clavos

    Mark @ #74:

    Well put. I think that too many here in the US downplay the dangers posed by Iran to Israel in their well-meaning (but naive, IMO) desire to see peace in the ME. Iran and others have repeatedly made it clear that they will not rest until Israel and all the Jews are eradicated.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    To speak of “delicate sensibilities” when referring to the possibility of a nuclear conflagration by the actions of a shitty little country in the middle of the desert is the epitome of myopia.

    Thank God Israel can only bark and that Ruvy’s is the voice in the wilderness; very soon, both will be put in their place, and for their own good.

    There’s nothing charming about Ruvy’s diatribes. They verge on being pathetic, having no other point of origin than some odd mixture of hatred and victimhood, not to mention obscure writings by doomsayers.

    To reiterate, there’s nothing charming about fanaticism.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Clavos,

    I really believe that Iran can be won over with shrewd US foreign policy. It’s almost like they’re begging for it to happen – a miscreant child who misbehaves only to draw attention to themselves.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    “…then what should Israel do?”

    Show some good judgment for a start–stop oppressing Palestinians might be a good choice here. Fuck religion and its delusions of grandeur.

    Israelis should march on their gov’t and stand up for Palestinians. They should do what’s right and keep doing what’s right even in the face of death–rather than cause other innocents to die by their hands. They should understand that their choices have helped foment the fury they are facing and that they need to make new ones.

    Israeli life is no more valuable than any innocent people Israelis would kill anywhere else.

    No wonder you believe that people are all biologically compelled to be violent regardless of education. We often don’t believe others can accomplish what we ourselves haven’t. Imperialists have trouble thinking straight.

    (I considered not posting this–I wasn’t going to talk about this subject at all–but I’m furious about this. Good to speak one’s mind even if it causes anger. And you spoke yours as well:

    “…to reject what’s he’s saying because it offends our delicate sensibilities.”

    It’s a dismissive remark that ridicules what sane people have been trying to say since your cavemen picked up their first rock. Maybe you ought to hang out in Hyde Park until you get the point.)

  • M ark

    Decountrify Israel — let the Jordan River live.

    “…to reject what’s he’s saying because it offends our delicate sensibilities.”…how about you slap yourself silly, Mark.

    While we’re at it — USA out of North America.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Ruvy,

    …I think we all had those sorts of nightmares in 1981, the world being what it was back then.

    Everyone had the jitters… and the local fire brigade was in the habit of testing the ‘four-minute warning’ siren without telling anyone that they were going to do so. Not a good way to help one concentrate on a long afternoon in school, I can tell you.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The road to peace, Mr. Schannon, is to take the weapons of mass destruction away from the miscreant children. That’d be the first step. If they want to keep on shooting at one another with rifles, that’s be the least of my concern. For if they don’t value their own life nor anyone else’s, that’s exactly what they deserve. Let them all go to hell.

  • m Ark

    For you suicidal dreamers — how ’bout some Jules.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I love this, Better than a thousand words.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I see none of you has a solution at all – except “Ma r k”, who would be happy to see us die and our nation destroyed, semi-Semite that he is.

    Clavos recognizes what “Ma r k”, Cindy and Roger refuse to recognize: that Iran and others have repeatedly made it clear that they will not rest until Israel and all the Jews are eradicated. It is your attitudes, the three of you, multiplied by millions in Europe and America, that allowed 6 million Jews to die under the Nazis 70 years ago. That is why we cannot trust you or your “good will” or your “humanity”. They are all a sham. You’re insulted? Start reading facts instead of bullshit. Like this, this, and this. And flush the bullshit you’ve been spouting down the toilet.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    This comment really belongs not here, but at my article on how we Jews cannot forgive or forget. But the topics are related. This article is an attempt to deal with Persia’s efforts to exterminate us, while this article, by Sammy Benoit, deals with how Britain held the coat for the Nazis to exterminate us.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    You are asking us to read an article (your second link) to demonstrate that Abdallah al-Nafisi supports terrorism against you. This is from a man whose article is entitled…Israel’s Case for a Pre-Emptive Nuclear Strike on Tehran.

    My maternal grandmother was Ukranian…have you heard of the Holodomor. Should I make a case for the genocide in which 10 million Ukrainians were killed…and no one’s even heard about it? Does that mean the world wants Ukrainians dead? Shall we duke it out? My relatives didn’t even warrant a mention.

    Enough with the…’everyone wants Jews dead’ schtick. No one you are speaking to is against you or wants Jews dead. Mark would be happy to see Jews die? That you’d say that to Mark suggests that your anger is blinding you.

  • Baronius

    “I see none of you has a solution at all.”

    Actually, Ruvy, I had a couple of suggestions, but I guess they weren’t fiery enough for you.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Actually Cindy, I am familiar with the Holodomor, though not under that name. The Soviet genocide of 10 million Ukrainians was part of numerous Soviet campaigns of murder and genocide that made Hitler look like a piker by comparison.

    Lionel Trilling, in his introduction to I.E. Babel’s “Red Cavalry and Other Stories” talks of the violence in Eastern Europe that was (and still is) normal, but which is shocking to Westerners delicate sensibilities. Look up knout, Cindy, if you do not already know its meaning. It was the standard form of punishment in places like the Ukraine, White Russia, Russia and Poland. Eastern Europe is a nasty place.

    You say, 10 million Ukrainians were killed…and no one’s even heard about it. And that is the point, Cindy. Nobody ever heard about it. Everybody heard of Hitler’s death camps – and folks still want Jews dead. That is the hard truth. Nobody heard of the Ukrainians and hardly anyone cares – unfortunately. But they’ve all heard of how Hitler murdered us off and Arabs and Persians, not to mention loads of Jew-haters all over Europe, still want more Jewish blood. “Mein Kampf” is a best seller in Cairo bookstores.

    That bitter fact may bother you, and you may not want to recognize it, but it is still true. Ask the Jews who were told by Austrians that they would not rent to Jews, ask the Jew-hating fellow from Perth who is finding himself in jail for incitement to violence. Ask the loudmouths who screamed Jews to the ovens all over the world in demonstrations last January.

    If you are insulted, Cindy, good. That means you still have some feelings. Now can the bullshit, and reading the facts.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Okay am I the first or last one to know that the fresh comments page is back under that word “more” up there?

    …before I make more of a fool of myself than I already have? ;)

  • Baronius

    Cindy, you have a Ukrainian background, and you can still talk about Marx without anger? At least Ruvy’s reaction to evil is a human one. Your passionless discussion of a system that has slaughtered millions every time it’s been implemented is unnatural.

  • Baronius

    Jet, you weren’t the last one. If they keep adding features, this site might improve to a pale imitation of what it used to be.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Baronius;

    I’m not sold. I’m not convinced that the command and control centers are the best targets either. If you want to eliminate the threat, you’ve got to hit the physical locations – the labs and equipment.

    Alternately, you could attack their air force and anti-aircraft defenses, then take your time wiping out each nuclear facility. And there’s always infiltration and sabotage, or computer warfare. There’s also economic sabotage and inciting political unrest, neither of which should be too difficult given Iran’s current state. There is a wide variety of options.

    I dealt with attempting to assassinate the leadership in the article itself. Now let’s take your other proposals one by one.

    1….you’ve got to hit the physical locations – the labs and equipment.

    Yes, after you deal with those who would order their use against you. Then you do not have to worry about their retaliation.

    2….Alternately, you could attack their air force and anti-aircraft defenses, then take your time wiping out each nuclear facility.

    So long as the regime is in power or even exists they can call in their friends. So Israel country will have gone to war without knowing what its final goals are. More to the point, taking out their air-force and anti-aircraft does not eliminate the threat against Israel – which comes from missiles, not necessarily nuclear, but massive in number, and not necessarily launched from Persia – but also southern Lebanon, Syria, and Gaza. Additionally, all the problems that atttend attempting to take out the nuclear enrichment plants and the like apply to attempting to hit air force bases in Persia. Finally, this option might have had some viability in 2002. But now, with the entire area crawling with American, European and Russian ships, it is a definite non-starter.

    3…..And there’s always infiltration and sabotage, or computer warfare. There’s also economic sabotage and inciting political unrest, neither of which should be too difficult given Iran’s current state. There is a wide variety of options.

    All of these suggestions would have been good five years or so ago. They all require something that isn’t really there now – time. To my knowledge, the Israeli government did not attempt any of them, relying on its so-called “ally” the United States. That “ally” was good for nothing – except advice to be “restrained”.

    NOW THERE IS NO TIME LEFT FOR LESSER SOLUTIONS. THAT IS THE BIG PROBLEM.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Actually Baronius I like the new graphics… if only they worked!

    My only major objection has been a new writer publishing his first article would be appalled to discover it vanish from the home page listings after only three or four days… the same amount of time it’d take for them to vanish from the contributor’s list…if that, as if it and they never existed.

    Now if we can only get our emails when a comment is posted on an old article-I’d be happy.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Baronius,

    f they keep adding features, this site might improve to a pale imitation of what it used to be.

    You got that one on the money.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Bar, you only could say that my reaction is unnatural because you don’t know me or my experience. My reaction to the evil I saw was enough to make me shut most people out over about 15 years and consider humanity as irredeemable. It’s really only 20 months since I even began to change my mind.

    I should hate Marx for what? Because some people abused power when they had authority? What’s new? Should you hate Jesus because of the Crusades? Communism is not a government. There can’t be a communist state. Marx was wrong about some things. It doesn’t make Marx or Communism evil.

    I look at evil every day. Many of the people struggling against it are Communists. Of course, that’s a whole different world than you’d see. You don’t get even a fraction of the news there is unless you look for it.

    Who do you think is responsible for the the 8 hour work day in the US? The ‘free market’? It’s Anarchists who fought for that. It’s Anarchists and Communists and their ilk whose struggle has brought people freedoms.

    Marx was wrong that there needed to be an intermediary authoritarian state. I’m not a Marxist. I just need to understand them as they are in the struggle for the same end goal–which is a stateless society. True Communism is Anarchism.

  • Sasha Shepherd

    Ruvy,

    I agree strongly with one statement you made either in your article or your earlier comments. That Israel should stop taking all money from the U.S. and Britain, and cut off ties with those countries. You said that America has treated Israel as a colony – and that is the whole problem.

    In fact, the Arabs and Persians have a perfectly legitimate gripe against Israel, and have every reason to want to see it destroyed. This reason does not have so much to do with the Jews as the Americans and British.

    I have argued before that the founding of Israel how and when it was founded was the second worst crime the West has ever committed against the Jews. I believe that the first reason the British allowed Israel to be founded was realpolitik, and giving a sanctuary to Jews was a distant afterthought – or a pretense.

    In reality, Israel IS an imperial beachhead – designed to fracture the Arab will, keep another Ottoman Empire from forming, and give a reason for America to meddle in the resource rich reason. Of course the Muslims hate it.

    The tragedy here is that there is no particular natural emnity between the Muslims and Jews. Their religions are more similar than different, and they have historically been able to live together pretty well. There have been some isolated events, and Jews were not treated better than anyone else, but they also weren’t treated worse. With a few exceptions from distant history, you didn’t see the widespread Pogroms or genocide campaigns that occurred in the Christian lands.

    To a great extent, the current animosity is a result of the British and Americans USING the Jews to further their own historical ambitions in the region. This is certainly an ugly business. And the greatest losers in the end are the Jews – now the crimes of Israel, the imperial ambitions it has been a front for, will be forever associated with the Jews, fairly or unfairly.

    So what’s a solution? I think you were on the right track. Cut ties with America and Britain. No longer take their weapons or foreign aide. No longer support their material ambitions in the region in any way. Let the Arabs and Persians know that that era is over, and sue for peace as equals. Offer monetary compensation to the displaced Palestinians if they agree to leave the country, and try to work with a neighboring Arabic country to re-settle them. Offer to buy the West Bank for a fair price, and try to convince them they will be happier in starting from another Arabic country with some money than trying to start their own country with nothing. Really, what happens when Palestinians within Israel outnumber Jews by 2050?

    I know all of that might be idealistic. But the Arabic populations (if not the leadership) would be enthralled to have the Americans out, and for America to lose this justification for meddling. The young, highly westernized Iranians (a country that has historically been friendly towards the west) are already sick to death of their leadership. Give them one less reason to justify their existence and their aggression towards Israel. Convince the moderate rationalists that Israel no longer is a tool of the imperialists, and wants to work in good faith to set things right. On the other hand, quickly deploy the most advanced anti-missile systems available. It might not work, but it doesn’t insure MAD like a nuclear strike on Iran does.

    You asked for solution to and unsolveable problem. That’s the best I’ve got off the top of my head.

    Sasha

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    And that is just off the top of her head. Imagine if you gave her a week.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    If you gave her a week she could come up with other bizarre misconceptions and twisted mutations of history so squirrely that we’d all be scratching our heads.

    A couple of points. First, the US and Britain would LOVE to have the Ottoman Empire back. They weren’t terrorists or religious extremists, and they were largely incompetent. Second, the US and Britain don’t have imperial ambitions in the middle east. They just want to keep the oil flowing and if friendly locals will fill that need then they’re happy.

    Dave

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Sasha,

    You will be very surprised by my answer to you. I agree with you almost entirely on your solution.

    Let’s examine why we are in such violent agreement here.

    1. Looked at from the eyes of a non-Jew, Israel appears to be only a colonial outpost of either the United states or the EU, depending om who you dislike more. This is a reasonable conclusion for someone who is not fleeing Christian or Moslem persecution to draw.

    From the point of view of an Israeli, who sees this nation as a refuge, the “aid” received of imperialist powers is not worth the candle. After all, we have (hopefully) our nukes, we can produce our own tanks, missiles, rifles, ammo, uniforms, avionics systems, etc., etc. Therefore doing things that cut us off from what appears to be and what is the colonial nipple is a top priority.

    2. My Arab neighbors deserve decent lives, not lives filled with strife, conflict and war. They deserve, as I do, the right to live under their own fig tree in peace.

    Therefore one of two solutions must be found. One is to buy them out of living here, helping them to move to a more prosperous country (like Canada or the States), or to a neighboring Arab country to live – in peace, dignity and prosperity. Of course the problem with that solution is that “the more prosperous countries” are no longer so prosperous. That means that the eastern half of the Palestine Mandate – Jordan – will have to be where these Arabs go, if they must move.

    The other possibility is that these Arabs living in Israel all become citizens of Jordan and a goodly portion of them stay here as “ex-pats” living in autonomous districts where local law obtains. As for Jordan, why should this Jew care if they wish to call it Falastín? If the capital of this Arab country is Amman, why should we care? In the end, all we really want is that the Arabs respect the fact that the Land of Israel – from the Jordan to the sea – is a Jewish country under Jewish sovereignty and, that we live in peace.

    You correctly point out that the leadership of the Arabs (and of the State of Israel) is a major problem. I do not know if you realize this, but you have reasoned yourself to my political position.

    With one difference. We cannot sue for peace. Suing for peace means dealing with Arab leaders who are so poisoned with hatred for Jews (and anybody who does not toe their line) that they want to slaughter us off. The Wahhabi (which is the influence over the Moslem Brotherhood where most of the Arab terrorist groups have their ideological roots) believe in slaughtering off everyone who does not follow their brand of belief. I do not call it Islam, because a true Moslem does not believe that Allah has form – the Wahhabi do. They are heretics.

    The Shi’a are convinced that the Mahdi (the Moslem messiah) is right around the corner, and believe that the Mahdi will rule the earth. They have no reason to make peace with dhimmis.

    To make a long story short, you cannot sue for peace with your executioners. You have to kill them – or convince the people they oppress the most to kill them. So, while we have a workable program for peace, we are still not out of the woods with the Persians and the empire they are building. They are not interested in peace, they are interested in domination. Hamas is not interested in peace, and neither is FataH, and neither are the copycat organizations of Hamas or FataH. They are interested in slaughter. The nationalistic line is just a pack of BS to attract idealists into becoming killers. Administering a country, building it from the ground up, is work. Slaughter, by contrast, is not.

    So the problem remains. But, full marks for giving it a good shot. I thank you; I appreciate your efforts, and the time you invested to write your comments. Ideas that lie embedded in what you’ve written might help with an ultimate solution.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Okay, Ruvy – since you believe America has never, ever been an ally of Israel, then give back all the money our government – our taxpayers – have sent Israel since 1947. Back in the ’90’s, IIRC, it was about five billion dollars per year.

    So give it back. ALL of it.

    If you’re going to bite the hand that has helped build your country – and YES, America DID provide you with financial and diplomatic support to do so – then give all the money back.

    But of course you – Ruvy – cannot do so…so all you will do is stand on the sidelines and carp about how terrible America has been to Israel. “YES, we’ll take your billions of dollars and thank-you-very-much, you enemy of Israel and Zionism!”

    So much for honor.

    You know, Ruvy – I really, truly do pity you. Keeping such hate in your heart – and thinking that it is right to do so – is a direct reflection of identical beliefs among many Wahhabi Muslims. I don’t think for a moment that Israel is as bad as them…but by keeping and breeding such hate, you have the potential for being exactly that.

    Remember, Ruvy – you, too, are exactly as human as the cruelest Wahhabi in Saudi Arabia…and if you fail to control your hatred and spite, then you may well become just as evil in the sight of God as that Wahhabi.

  • Baronius

    Cindy, I don’t blame Jesus for the Crusades. There have been a few good Christians over the years. You and I can argue whether Christianity’s history is a net plus or minus.

    But if an experiment fails in the exact same way every time it’s tried, you’ve got to consider that there’s a flaw in the original theory. Marxism has led to butchery in Africa, Eastern Europe, Russia, China, Southeast Asia, and South America. It has never freed people on a large scale. There may be communes here and there that have succeeded, but not many. The most successful model for communes is the Christian monastery, which predates Marx.

    Anarchy has been tried before. Remember the French Revolution, and its attempt to change human nature? It turns out that politics abhors a vacuum. In fact, compared to politics, nature has candlelight slow-dance feelings for a vacuum. Unprincipled people will always grab power if it’s available, and they’ll always kill to hold onto it.

    Your premise is that power can be abandoned, without something worse coming along and reclaiming it. America’s founding principle is to set up as many power centers as possible and keep them at odds. The free market follows a similar principle.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The whole discussion turns on the distinction between legitimate and illegitimate use of force. There is “evil” in this world, no ifs ands and buts about it, and sometimes it’s got to be dealt with.

    Cindy’s pacifistic views are totally irrelevant insofar that they won’t even admit “self-defense” as valid reasons for individuals and nations. World War II is a perfect example of the latter.

    But Ruvy’s idea of nuking Iran in a preemptive strike doesn’t even come close.

    It’s born of delusional thinking, fixed knowledge-belief system, to use Chris Rose’s apt phrase, extreme paranoia, and odd admixture of hatred and victimhood.

  • Baronius

    1) the labs and equipment… “after you deal with those who would order their use against you”

    No, no, no. You can’t kill the leadership surgically, as you’ve noted. You’d have to kill everyone in Iran – not just Tehran – because if there’s one person left near a nuclear weapon, he’s going to launch it. But if you destroy one component to a nuclear weapon (or the lab or factory that produces it), the weapon is unusable at least for a while. You can prevent an attack by destroying 100% of the humans or 1% of the equipment. That shouldn’t be a difficult moral choice.

    2) If you want to target the correct production facilities, you need accurate information. Get it. If you think you’ll need multiple air strikes to destroy the facilities, your first attack should target the air defenses, so you’ll be able to make repeated attacks safely.

    3) You’re worried about time – mess with their schedule. They can’t build nuclear weapons if there’s no electricity in the labs, and their best engineers are off repairing the power grid. If you want to think bigger than that, how about turning Egypt against Iran? Egypt can’t be happy about Iran’s role in Palestine. Find the dissidents within Iran (there are a lot of them) and help them to overthrow the government. Considering that everyone who hates you relies on high oil prices to stay afloat, you could do something about that.

    You say that a nuclear attack is the only way to prevent a nuclear attack. Why not try some other solution first? Don’t sit on your hands and say that time is running out. There’s an old line from The Simpsons, “we’ve tried nothing and we’ve run out of ideas”.

    Above all, don’t claim that you consider charring your enemy to be unfortunate. It flies in the face of everything you’ve written on this site.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I think you should give us a respite, Ruvy, rather than contaminate this site any further.

    Go speak to your rabbi or spiritual advisor.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Baronius,

    Truth is I’m not really interested in nuking Tehran. I find this abhorrent to me. I’m not interested in vengeance or mass murder. I’m interested in securing the country – not securing peace, necessarily, but securing the country. If you can find a way out from nuking the Persians, that is exactly what I asked for.

    So, keep talking. You most assuredly have my attention.

    I have to point out that it is the government of Israel that followed that adage from The Simpsons of doing nothing and now running out of time. I don’t think that way. No competent fast food restaurant manager can afford to. He’d be out on his ass.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I haven’t been on the site for most of the day because the damned site keeps going down. Every time I try to post a comment, I get a double posting because the damned site goes down. What a pain!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Roger, send me the name of that quack you see to keep your head straight. We can schedule double sessions and cut the bill in half…..

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Self-defense is a difficult thing to gauge when it gets to nations and power.

    No, I can’t defend Palestinians firing missiles at innocent Israelis–even in self-defense.

    Terrorism is never justified. (There is no ooops, that’s life…oh well, we’ve got some ‘collateral damage’.

    Collateral damage is your mother choking on her own blood. It’s your child with her skull crushed in lying under rubble. How could I defend anyone who would do that to your mother or child?

    All terrorism is wrong, by people or nations. Again…what will be said, for example, when Afghan terrorists at some future date begin flying airplanes into buildings.

    That connect the dots game is a great thing. Maybe people need to play that game more.

  • Zedd

    Ruvy Ruvy Ruvy…. sigh.

    It seems that you at least recognize that your previous articles were indeed basically long monotonous speeches about off course your obsession the Arabs (I’m sure you’ll correct me in Hebrew… What…ev.)

    Any way, since you haven’t responded to the repeated please for you to pull yourself together, I’ll just say -have fun with all that! Hope it warms your bunk.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    It’s funny how the ‘enemy’ just won’t play fair. They refuse to cooperate and just accept that they are the real enemy. They keep thinking it’s the other guy–you know the ‘good guy’–who is the enemy.

  • Zedd

    Ruvy,

    If you are among the wealthiest people in the world and have been in the news EVERY-DAD-GUM-DAY for as long as many of our lifetimes; with every incoming Western Leader vowing to help you (kissing up to you cause you are rich), the pity thing wears out. It just does.

    Try another shtick.

    Let’s discuss how much charity comes out of your beloved homeland that is none-Jew related. Perhaps that approach will buy another half century of fawning and earn you the right to more years of endless complaining and attention seeking. Gee…!

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    My nephew didn’t have those little green army men, like boys had when I was a kid. Instead he had action figures. He leave them in piles and occasionally, he’d go over and pick up two weird creatures or wrestling guys, or whatever they were…and then he would sit there for quite awhile smashing them into each other and making all kind of explosive sound effects.

    I thought he was from outer space. What alien thinking.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Hey there my favorite Zedd. :-)

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy
  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The quack is not whom I see, Ruvy. You’re the one.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Forget, it Ruvy. I take the last remark back. But there is really no more sense talking because I don’t want to be insulting you. I hope it all works out.

  • Irene Wagner

    Ruvy, I can’t remember whether or not you had any time for Senator Feingold. It’s certainly not like he’s out there encouraging his constituents to be making aliyah, yet…

    Respect for the memories of the victims of the Holocaust is causing people to work up a full head of steam about Darfur, too.

    I think Satan has a time share in Saudi Arabia.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    #103

    Bar,

    Sorry I’m so late in responding. I have made a few false starts.

    1) My point about Jesus, is that just because his ideas were used wrongly, doesn’t mean we should toss his ideas out.

    2) There were more than Anarchists involved in the French Revolution. It isn’t that power abhors a vacuum so much as that power likes to take things over. Human nature doesn’t not change based on political whims. There is much current evidence that a variety of ideas are able to live under a base that is anarchistic–from the Zapatistas to the collective workplaces. In fact, I bet you and your friends practice anarchism all the time without big fights. Any group of friends generally does this in making decisions.

    Power isn’t abandoned Bar. It is simply flows horizontally. It’s hierarchy and authoritarianism that are abandoned. Thus, the power of others is respected.

  • Ruvy

    Irene,

    Satan had the time share at the Uninn Bank and the British and American assholes who created the Thugdom of Saudia, not to mention the American CIA which installed the Shah of Iran. Your nation had a blessing and a guardian angel from G-d. Both have been withdrawn. Anyone who has seen the decline of American society as I have cannot fail to see this. You guys can’t get anything right anymore, not even educating kids in your capital. Atheists go screaming at one politician or another, like Dave Nalle trying to smear the Blessed of Hussein with the feces of the “liberal agenda”. Those of us who see the Hand of G-d in History see something entirely different.

    Now that you Americans are well and truly broke (like I said you would be), Glenn Contrarian wants America’s money back from Israel. I’ll pass his note on to the schnorrers in the prime minister’s office, if I get the chance. How dare we bite the hand that twists the knife in our back while holding big delicious juicy carrots in front of our “leaders”.

    Hah!

  • Ruvy

    Okay, Ruvy – since you believe America has never, ever been an ally of Israel, then give back all the money our government – our taxpayers – have sent Israel since 1947. Back in the ’90’s, IIRC, it was about five billion dollars per year.

    So give it back. ALL of it.

    Sure, Glenn,

    After we deduct for
    1. all the lives that could have been saved by the USAAF’s refusal to bomb the railway tracks to the concentration camps, refusal to bomb the camps entrances, refusal to bomb the camps administrative sections;

    2. all the damage, the unneccesary casualties we have suffered, and the property damage we have suffered due to your government’s refusal to allow to buy arms in 1947-48, the loss of life, property and possible income, by following your government’s bad advice has cost us, and

    3. after we deduct the lost revenue for all the defense deals your government’s interference in has cost in the last 25 years.

    I get the feeling, that when the tally is all finished, the United States will owe us quite a large sum.

  • Pat McCrann

    Good article Ruvy. Where did you get all the sickos here from?