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Peace In The Middle East, By Way Of Maryland

In the interest of full disclosure, let me start by saying that The Obnoxious American is of Jewish heritage and faith and a strong supporter of the state of Israel. Upon first hearing about the Annapolis conference between Israel and most Arab states, I had a near immediate feeling of deja vu.

About eight years ago, former President Clinton tried running the same play, a last ditch effort to bolster his flailing legacy. Then as now, it wasn't at all clear how the President's tenure would be tallied amongst the great leaders of this country's past. It's a shame that selfish desires drive such noble efforts, but that is the American way after all.

The problem with Annapolis, with the US led roadmap to peace, doesn't lie with the US. Although now, as then, when (not if) it fails it will be laid at the feet of the President.

The other problem with Annapolis is that it gives legitimacy to the gripes of America and Israel's enemies. CNN and other American mainstream media were happy to report that "Israel is 'ready' for a deal", saying that the only sticking points were merely the fate of Jerusalem, the right of return, and the labeling of Israel as a Jewish state. Sounds pretty innocuous right?

It's worth noting that Israel has always been ready to work out some sort of agreement with the Palestinians, in hopes that the never-ending barrage of missiles being shot over its border, and the drumbeat of terrorists attacks on its civilians would stop. No news there. In fact, during the last eight or so years of the Palestinians' destructive intifada, Israel has tried releasing prisoners, turning over settlements, making peace arrangements, all to no avail. Furthermore, as far as I can remember, the specific issues that have been identified in Annapolis have always existed.

Not to say that Israel has been perfect. When provoked, there have been times where the response could have been more measured. That said, when you are being slowly victimized sometimes you act out of turn. However, even when the response has been outsized, Israel still showed restraint. They have the military power to completely decimate the Palestinians. They haven't.

One need only look to the time before this most recent intifada (called incidentally by the Palestinians) to see Palestinians making up a good percentage of the Israeli work force (i.e. mid-nineties). Israelis are like us; ultimately, they want peace and a good economy. Like most westernized nations, they are not bent on destruction or religious ideology and for this reason, they are open to a peaceful resolution to the I/P conflict without pushing all Palestinians into the sea. Unfortunately, I'm not sure the same can be said for the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world.

Let's start with the question of labeling Israel a Jewish state. Critics argue that Jews, while the vast majority of Israel's populace, are not the only people living within its borders; both Christians and Muslims and a few others live in Israel. Of course, the nations of Afghanistan, Iran, Mauritania, and Pakistan all have "Islamic republic" in their full name while also hosting minorities of other religions. In fact, a small minority of Jews happen to live in Iran, but for some reason, they aren't complaining.

Many more countries that don't have Islamic Republic in their name practice sharia, Islamic law, as their legal system, even though they also host minorities from other religions. Sharia has a pretty big impact on these minorities as Dhimmis (non-Muslims living under sharia) tend to have fewer rights than Muslims do.

The fact is that Israel was first mandated by the League of Nations following World War One as a "national home for the Jewish people," and the U.N. in 1947 expanded on this by approving the partition of the state of Israel. Israel is a Jewish state just like Iran is an Islamic republic. Putting aside the obvious hypocrisy of this "concern," what possible reason would Arab nations have with this "labeling?" Simple — Palestinians Muslims can't claim a right of return to a state that is explicitly Jewish, can they?

About The Obnoxious American

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    People who differ with Israel’s policies are already legitimate, just as Israel’s policies themselves are legitimate – they are not “given legitimacy” by this conference. If the conference only recognized one point of view, it really would be pointless.

    If the two sides never get around to negotiating, but continue instead to feed a cycle of violence and retribution, there is no happy ending for anyone in Israel or Palestine.

    Bush and Rice’s efforts may end up being too little, too late, but they are much, much better than not trying at all. By being so suspicious of everyone’s motives, isn’t the writer of this article, just as much as the rioters in the West Bank yesterday, demonstrating that he doesn’t really want to pursue peace – or doesn’t really believe it’s possible? Does he perhaps prefer to keep the status quo of a long-simmering war?

    There are too many on both sides who see their only way to ‘win’ as a continuing war rather than an attempt at peace.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Handyguy,

    I hear what you are saying, and I agree that more than one view should be represented. My point here is that if we are starting the discussion questioning things like whether Israel should be a Jewish state then clearly one side of the discussion isn’t being serious. Similar to the other points that need resolving.

    For example, rather than right of return, if the discussion was about reparations for Palestinians, that would be a solvable solution. But right of return simply means the end of Israel. Yet the media doesn’t really portray it that way.

    The point here is that Annapolis might have been a good try, but you need more than one partner for peace.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Handyguy,

    I gotta say, after re-reading your post, i am offended. What an excersize of moral relativism.

    Do I think peace is unachievable? Did you even read the article or the points I made?

    Being so suspicious? Did you even read the article or the points I made?

    “Does he perhaps prefer to keep the status quo of a long-simmering war? ”

    I will quote from the article so I don’t have to type it twice:

    “Israel is here to stay and for there to ever be peace in the Middle East, the Arab world needs to accept and welcome Israel as a permanent neighbor. To do otherwise just means more struggle, more innocent people dying, and more problems for the rest of the world. Unfortunately, given the issues that have been raised in Annapolis, I think that the majority of the attendees aren’t really interested in a peace that includes the state of Israel.”

    To compare me to rioters in the west bank has lowered my opinion of you by a few notches. Stop dealing in relativism and actually read these things if you are going to comment.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Obnoxious,

    Your article, written as it is, probably represents the views of most American Jews who are more or less sympathetic to the idea of a Jewish state, even though they might not want to live here. In all fairness, I can’t ask for more from you, though your article is a disappointment to me.

    The fact that you got offended at handyguy’s moral relativism and the moral relativism of the comments that are sure to follow on his heels from others who, like the citizens of ancient Nineveh, “don’t know their right from their left” shows that there is more than just “a pintele Yid” in your soul. This is good as far as it goes. But it doesn’t go far enough.

    Now let’s get to the important points, points that you missed altogether. On the Jewish calendar, this country was partitioned by the United Nations sixty years to the day of the conference in Annapolis. On 16 Kislev 5708, the United Nations voted to partition the Palestine Mandate into a Jewish and an Arab state. On 16 Kislev 5768, Israeli leaders went to Maryland to sign a suicide pact that refused to even name this country as a Jewish state. In short, exactly sixty years to the day, the idiotic traitors from Jerusalem went to Maryland to undo what the United Nations did.

    This is not a coincidence. It is symbolic. The fools do not realize it, but on 27 November 2007, the leaders signed the epitaph of the State of Israel.

    Put simply, the “Jewish State”, which is collapsing around us anyway, is over. All that is left is the execution. That is what will follow in the not too distant future when missiles from Syria, Gaza, Lebanon and Iran rain down on this country, destroying the infrastructure from Akko in the north to Ashklelon in the south. May G-d help us and have mercy on our souls when this happens, for many will die. I have anonymous sources with close and reliable links in Israeli intelligence warning of just this. One estimate I have is 22,000. I suspect that the death toll will be far higher here in the end.

    But in the process of the Redemption, many many more will die abroad.

    This is the significance of Annapolis. When the mashiaH ben Yosef, what is really the Zionist movement, and its accomplishment, the Zionist state, is killed, the way is cleared for the mashiaH ben David, the spiritual redeemer of the People of Israel (and of the entire world) to arrive.

    Artificial divisions between religion and politics that secular fools, blinded by the misconceptions of Greek culture, insist on, do not apply here. History happens in one organic whole, for there is but One G-d directing its course.

    It does not matter how many bagels with a shmear you eat, Obnoxious, or even how many blessings you recite in shul or over the things you do, if you even do so. This is not stuff you learn in Exile. This is why the “pintele Yid” you show in taking offense at morally relativistic comments does not go far enough. You do not get to see the whole picture, or even get the opportunity to sense the need to see the whole picture when you are in exile, pledging allegiance to passing and temporary phenomena, like the United States of America.

    You have not forgotten Zion – but you have not put Jerusalem above your chieftest joy. You are like one of those people in Niniveh – you neither know your right from your left. That is why I’m disappointed.

    A parting shot for you. If G-d is good to you, you will see the proof of my words. You will see the fall of the Statue of Liberty, the New Colossus in New York Harbor. This was prophesied 1,500 years ago in the Galilee.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    “Moral relativism” = the opinions of anyone who disagrees with hard-line militarist Israeli policies in the Middle East; or of anyone who dares suggest that there is more than one point of view possible in this conflict.
    Related terms: “Jew hater,” “anti-Semite,” “terrorist sympathizer”

  • http://adreamersholiday.blogspot.com Lee Richards

    Politics poisons religion with the corruption of “us vs. them” extremism, and dogmatic religion infects politics with the virus of deluded fanaticism.

    That, alone, is enough to doom this effort as it has so many others there. This time, U.S. credibility is likely to suffer a huge hit because we’ve agreed to judge both sides’ compliance, which would seem to be an impossible task.

    As before in this part of the world, we’ve again decided to stumble around in a room jammed with powder kegs and our hands full of lighted matches and no idea where the door is.

    Unless the administration can pray up a few miracles of its own, the liklihood that our prestige–and possibly our safety–in the M.E. and around the world will take a huge propaganda hit(if no other kind)from the assorted extremists, fanatics, radicals, and terrorists involved is more predictible than peace is.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Well that wasn’t nearly as bad as I thought it would be. Since you asked, I do know my right and my left, or else I’d have killed myself on the roads long ago :> Also, I don’t eat bagels (too many carbs) hate shmear (dont eat cream cheese or locks or whatever) – gimme a steak instead. I don’t practice judaism, done enough of the religious thing in my life.

    Ruvy, I didn’t realize you believed in a soon to come apocolypse. I don’t happen to share that view, nor do I buy into these massive conspiracy theories of yours.

    Did I tell you that I am an American and a Jew? First and foremost however, I am human, and I think of that as my first team. Yes, there are plenty of bad guys on the human team. But to believe in G-d, is to believe in what he created, mankind. I have faith in mankind, in most of mankind anyway. There have been times when mankind failed that faith, but ultimately each situation was rectified.

    To your view, I didn’t go far enough. But to my view, I went as far as I should. Reason being because the Palestinians are on the first team too. They may have some really crappy leadership, and they are at fault for electing Hamas. But they are learning and I have faith in at least some of them to ultimately make the right choice.

    I really hope that the scenario you describe is exactly what I referred to earlier, a conspiracy theory and not a conspiracy fact. But should there be an effort to kill off the jews you can be sure Jews all over the world, as well as many Christians, will be there to back you up. Just be cordial to us when we do please.

  • Moonraven

    The idea of a Peace Conference under the “aegis” of one of the most conflictive/bellicose guys on the planet is a joke.

    And not a very funny one.

    There is only one solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict: De-country Israel.

    I suggest that the Brits on this site start lobbying to have its Zionist inhabitants transported to West Midlands.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Moonraven, surely even you can’t be heartless enough to call for the population of Israel to be forced to move to Birmingham…!

  • The Obnoxious American

    HandyGuy,

    You caught me. I just throw out those terms and make statements and don’t even try to back it up with anything other than shrill outrage. Oh wait, thats you :>

    I can tell you that I only ever make the relativism charge when people try to compare the activities of non-terrorists with those of terrorists.

    I am using the power of the pen (keyboard) to express ideas and possibly reach out to people with them. At worst, I start a discussion, at best, I help change someone’s mind (or they change mine). And you compared me to West Bank Rioters. If that isn’t moral relativism, then I don’t know what is.

    Did you ever go back and actually read this article?

  • The Obnoxious American

    Lee,

    Great post, although to be fair Clinton tried to do the exact same thing. I think ultimately we won’t take a real hit just like we didn’t as a result of Oslo. Can’t knock someone for trying. On the other hand, Olmert and Abbas will take hits, both internally and from other nations, if this goes nowhere. If you think about it, that’s one of the most scary ideas about this. Israel will find a new leader. But if Abbas is discredited, then what? His position is already questionable. Shouldn’t Hamas be in Anapolis? Oh, but they are a terrorist group right? Probably couldn’t get a flight out.

    Moonraven, yeah let’s de-countryfy Israel, just like the Pilgrams did to the Native Americans right? I can’t believe YOU of all people would say something like that. Tsk tsk! You got some splaining to do to your bretheren…

  • Moonraven

    Hardly the same situation: We were living on this land for thousands of years without raising hell–even welcomed folks who came here!

    The Israelis were troublemakers even in biblical times–which is why they were frequently held captive in other countries by the powerful empires of the day (Assyrians, Egyptians, etc.) and were BOOTED out of the area 2 thousand years ago.

    Birmingham is a hell hole, too good for the Zionist terrorists, but it was YOU BRITS who gave into them to fight Rommel in the desert.

    You made your bed–er, decision–I suggest you take them in.

    But I am NOT suggesting you check to see if cattle cars are allowed to go through the Eurotunnel. I am not a genocidal maniac like the majority of folks posting on this site.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Glass houses MR, very disappointed with your logic. For your information, Jews lived in Israel for thousands of years as well, before Islam even existed. How is that any different from the plight of Native Americans?

    Jews caused trouble during biblical times? You do realize that the old testament IS the jewish Bible right?

    If this were anyone else I’d think you were pulling my leg with these responses. But I’m never sure about you…

  • http:.//ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Obnoxious,

    Actually, while I find your views disappointing, they are not obnoxious at all. Misguided is the word I’d prefer.

    But actually, I’m not quoting you conspiracy theories at all. The warnings of impending missile attacks come from sources in Israeli intelligence, and if you had been following the news here as closely as I have, you would have noticed the buildup of missiles. Facts, not conspiracies or even theories.

    Olmert walked away from Annapolis with a statement that did not define Israel as a Jewish state, and Bush got his knuckles wrapped for attempting to interfere in the region by, of all people, Saeb Erekat, the South Syrian Arab representative. So, in essence, Olmert agreed to undo what the UN did in 1947. He undid Israel as a Jewish State. More facts.

    Before I look at the Bible, the Talmud, or the Holy Zohar for answers, which is where I do look, I look at the facts first. What I’ve reported to you above are the obnoxious facts.

    The symbolism of the sixty year cycle, the prophecies of the m’kubalim, the seven year cycle that will bring about the Redemption, the concept of the mashiaH ben Yosef dying so that the mashiaH ben David can arrive, are all organizing principles. But without the facts, that is all they are.

    What is so scary about what I see is that the facts are falling into the patterns predicted by the organizing principles I just outlined above.

    Unfortunately, you haven’t got a clue as to what I’m talking about. You’re not stupid. You just are not used to looking at facts with these organizing principles applied to them.

    As for Marthe Raymond, she will get what she wants – the end of the Zionist state. But in a short time, an entity will arise in Eretz Yisrael that will be the beacon of the religion and of the nation of Israel. No sovereign Arab entity will ever arise on the soil of this country.

    There will be a reconciliation of the Children of Ishmael and the Children of Israel, Obnoxious. Go pick up a Tana”kh and read in the English Isaiah 60:7-8. That is where it is prophesied.

    As I said, if G-d is good to you, you will see the end of Christian misrule of the world, and it will be symbolized by the fall of the New Colossus in New York Harbor.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Ruvy,

    I didn’t think the Missle part was weird, just the New York harbor talk.

    Olmert didn’t agree to Israel not being a Jewish state. It’s one of the issues that have to be worked out before next year when the two sides have pledged to finalize this sort out. The only thing Olmert has agreed to is to work on the peace deal with a targeted resolution date in 08.

    I find it puzzling that you are saying this to me about Jewish statehood, when that topic was the very first that I addressed in the article (in favor of it being a Jewish state I might add).

    People all over the world read the mainstream media, and the coverage says, well Olmert and Abbas met and they agreed to make peace in 08, the only sticking points being whether Israel is a Jewish state and some yadada about right of return. Most people hearing this think, oh well thats no big deal. And when Israel says no, most people say well why is Israel so difficult.

    The point of this article is to break down exactly why these minor issues that CNN so glibly says just need to be worked out, are really deal killers. It’s to remind people just why Israel ultimately won’t accept this psuedo peace deal. I think the article does a fine job of doing that, touching on virtually every point, settlements, the jewish state question, right of return.

    If you came here expecting an incendiary, anti muslim rant, that’s not what you are going to get here. You are going to get a sober, fair reading of the situation. What I just find puzzling about you is that on every point, I side with the state of Israel. I say that this isn’t a real peace deal. The last sentence in the article calls into question whether Israel has a partner for peace. And you lecture me on being naive or asleep or something. Are you actually reading this article or just assuming that because I’m not on the kibbutz with you that I get all my news from CNN? I do read debka files you know…

    It’s really kind of annoying Ruvy. You don’t know me or how I feel. But you could try reading some of my articles one of these days if you ever want to start.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Right, so by your words, the Jews were booted out of the area. Kind of exactly like what happened to Native Americans.

    The main difference between the state of Israel and the state of Native Americans is that Jews actually got their country back – exactly what you wish the Native Americans could get. That you have a problem with Israel, yet clamor for the exact same thing for Native Americans is inexplicable.

    Obviously, although the plight of the Jews and the plight of Native Americans is very similar, by your words it’s evident you don’t hold Jews in the same regard as your own people. That makes you a damned racist and as bad as any John Smith or pilgrim out there.

    By engaging in this argument the way you have, you’ve exposed yourself as a giant hypocrite and an anti semite.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Umm, incidentally, I was replying to a post by Moonraven (i know I should know better) where she called me ignorant **** and affirmed that the Jews were booted out of Israel. her post is now missing. My reply above is in response to that post (just so yall don’t think I am talking to myself :>)

  • http://www.my-virtual-income.com Christopher Rose

    Obnoxious: you need to take on board that when moonraven goes beyond the bounds of passionate debate into the realms of personal attack, her remarks are either going to be edited or deleted, depending on the debate/bile ratio. That goes for anyone else’s remarks too.

  • The Obnoxious American

    I understand that. But without her post it looks like I just randomly posted something up there 12 hours after my last post. People might think I am crazy, or at least more crazy.

  • moonraven

    And those people whyo thinkn that you are crazy would be correct.

    I am not an anti-semite, BTW: Arabs are just fiine with me.

  • moonraven

    “Last week the prestigious Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz reported that top right-wing politicians in Israel have achieved a “targeted assassination” of the peace process. They’ve put up obstacles to peace so high that Olmert, a weak leader at best, can never pull them down.

    They got the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, to pass a law that 2/3 of the Knesset must approve any changes in the boundaries of Jerusalem. That will never happen. So the Israeli negotiators in the “peace process” can never accede to a fundamental Palestinian demand, that both nations share Jerusalem as their capitals.

    They also got a hidden “kicker” in the joint declaration issued at Annapolis: “The parties also commit to immediately implement their respective obligations under the performance-based road map.” Israel has always insisted that its obligations under the road map begin only after the Palestinian authorities have suppressed all anti-Israeli violence. Ha’aretz reports that the right-wingers who want to block peace are requiring Olmert to persist in the peace-blocking policy.”

    Excerpt from commondreams article by Ira Chernus.

    Like I said, the ONLY way to have peace in the region is to kick the zionists OUT.

    Diaspora all over again, just like in 597.

    Sounds good to me.

    Just stay the hell away from Turtle Island.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Fine for you to have that viewpoint, but then don’t complain about what happened to Native Americans, and don’t talk about Native Americans getting their own land back.

    Diaspora all over again, just like in Jamestown.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Whatever MR, you are a total hypocrite. You complain about Native Americans getting booted off of their land, and how they deserve to get it back, but in the same breath make comments about how the Jews should be booted out of Israel. If you don’t see the total hypocrisy of your position, then you my dear are blind.

    What’s the explanation for this paradox? How can you explain some of the other derogatory comments you’ve made about my bretheren in Israel and the total disregard for them in any struggle? You hate Jews. Even bringing up the whole semite=arab thing just goes to show where your mind is at. Not that your mindset is really a surprise to anyone here, but I wanted to highlight just how much of a racist you really are, despite all of the populist mumblings coming out of your keyboard.

  • Baronius

    Look, Chris, you’ve got great time management skills to keep up with all the personal attacks on the boards. I don’t dispute that. But you’re not there at the moment of the conversation. You can’t keep ahead of the abuse curve. And for the longer-term, after you’re done expunging the boards, the narrative sometimes doesn’t make sense any more. You’ve got to provide more of the conversational flow, or better yet, admit that this isn’t working and ban the bird.

  • http://roundingupthesquares.blogspot.com/ Sam

    Its always amazing to me when people talk of Israel’s concessions. How can an occupier talk of concessions!!

    You are settled on some one else’s land. This is recognised by the UN. Illegal settlements. You have 11,000 people locked up without a proper trial. You have “Jews Only” Roads, and by the looks of this map are steadily encroaching on your neighbor’s lands.

    How can a thief demand the right to be heard?

    Utterly senseless world.

  • http://www.my-virtual-income.com Christopher Rose

    Baronius, it’s not ideal, that’s for sure. On the other hand, BC editors, writers and regular commenters know where the boundaries are.

    If you all don’t respond to stuff that is obviously going to get canned, then all that goes is the trash and hopefully, readability, which I really try hard to consider, ought to be more or less preserved.

    The only real alternatives involve a far more controlled environment, which I believe most of us wouldn’t want.

  • troll

    Baronius – my little grotesque experiment showed that Marthe can be ‘encouraged’ to clean up her act for brief periods and actually driven from the boards for a day or two but only at great expense

    imo engaging her in any positive fashion is a mistake unless you are willing to put up with her filthy expressions of hatred – bad with the good and all

  • sme49b1

    Moonraven,

    Why not kick the Arabs out? What gives them priority over Jews?

    Are you going to tell me that there was an Arab country here for thousands of years? Where? What was it called? It certainly wasn’t known as Palestine.

    The truth is that the concept of a Palestinian national identity arose as a counter to Zionism, not because of any existing national aspirations.

    The other truth is that Arab hostility to the State of Israel is based on the perceived threat to Arab/Islamic supremacy in the region, not on the national aspirations of the local population. Note that during more than 500 years of Ottoman Turkish rule there was only one revolt in what is now known as Israel/WB/Gaza and that was against the influence of the Egyptian sultan Mehmet Ali in the early 19th century (and fomented by the Turks). Note also that during the nearly 20 years of Jordanian/Egyptian rule in the West Bank and Gaza not a word was said about ‘occupation’ and not a finger was raised in opposition.

    Both Jews and Arabs are entitled to the right of self determination and neither one’s right in this regard takes priority over the other’s. Israel has come to this realization. The Arabs haven’t, and until they do there will never be peace. And if you think that the disappearance of the Jews from the scene is the cure to the region’s ills, I suggest that you take a look at the current intra-Arab violence in Lebanon, Iraq and Gaza.

    BTW, where did you come up with the idea that it was Zionist influence that caused fighting between the British and Germans in North Africa? The only reason there were German troops in North Africa in the first place was because the Italians took it upon themselves to attack British troops in Egypt and were thrown back into Libya. The Afrika Corps was formed with Rommel at its head to rescue the Italian effort.

  • http:.//ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Obnoxious,

    I have read almost all of your articles here. I have a reasonably good read on what you think on most of the issues you have dealt with. That is as far as I can intelligently go.

    I don’t hate Arabs, but their actions do inspire hatred. I don’t have to tell you that, though, you know it already.

    What I am telling you is that Olmert’s solutions, which are basically treason under the existing Israeli law, will not occur, even if he forces them through the cabinet or the Knesset.

    The reason is that there are too damned many of us living in Judea and Samaria for Israeli soldiers or cops to expel us. This is not Gush Qatif, my boy, and too many soldiers were totally disgusted by what they did there to do it all over again – and too many soldiers come from Judea and Samaria for this weak state to force its will on them.

    What I’m telling you goes double for the people on this comment thread calling for our expulsion from our own homeland. It doesn’t matter to me how righteous or justified you think you are in your reasoning.

    What is likely to happen is another attack on this country by the Arabs and Iranians, a much more severe attack that will kill thousands of us. And the result of that attack will be a massacre of Arabs by Jews who have had it up to their necks with the anti-Jewish discrimination of the present regime, and there will be nothing anybody can do to stop that massacre of Arabs. This is not because I’ll participate in such an event. I won’t, and I won’t jump up and down for joy when it happens, either. But what I warn of will happen because secular Israelis will realize that they have been played for suckers by the thieves in Jerusalem, and seeing their homes burning and their families and friends dying, they’ll overthrow the weak and collapsing authority around them and attack the obvious enemy that they can kill – the Arabs.

    The fix is in, and the roller coaster is on the way. It is just a matter of time till what I say will occur, when the roller coaster of History starts down the tracks and destroys the guilty with the innocent together amongst our enemies.

    In the meantime, Emmanuel Winston wrote the following, asking that it be re-distributed:

    OLMERT ON CNN: “ISRAEL IS FINISHED UNLESS SHE ACCEPTS MY COMPROMISES!” by Emanuel A. Winston, Middle East Analyst & Commentator

    Olmert threw down the gauntlet yesterday when he said:

    If the day comes when the two-state solution collapses, and we face a South African-style struggle for equal voting rights [assuming that the Palestinians in the territories will petition peacefully to be citizens of Israel, taking on the obligations of Israeli citizenship], then, as soon as that happens, the State of Israel is finished.

    This what the Left would have you believe.

    Olmert’s body language when he was holding hands with American President George W. Bush had the look of a beaten dog just glad to be there. For a few moments I thought he was going to lick the President’s face as he tilted his head looking like a teen-age girl awaiting her first kiss.

    Olmert is known to be an exceptionally weak Prime Minister which should surprise no one given his history as a manipulator, hiding behind various government offices he occupied.

    Olmert wishes to rely on pledges made at Annapolis under mandates issued by Bush and Rice under a (do it or else), denials notwithstanding.

    Olmert is well aware that none of the past commitments made by the Muslim Arab Palestinians under the moribund “Road Map” have been kept.

    Terror continued under the Palestinian Authority’s Mahmoud Abbas before Ariel Sharon and Olmert evicted 10,000 Jewish men, women and children from their homes, farms, schools, synagogues, factories and cemeteries of Gush Qatif/Gaza.

    Gaza turned into a full scale Terror base, followed by a vote which put the more radical Hamas in control. Soon Hamas and Fatah began to struggle for power and money. They seemed to split but many of the Fatah army and police and the Arab Muslim Palestinians have been polled and showed a definite bias towards the Hamas attack policy.

    Middle East experts, including those who are familiar with Islam know what treaties and agreements mean to Islam under Koranic law.

    There are no true agreements that Muslims may make with “infidels” (non-Muslims), namely Israel, America and/or Europe. In both the Koran (written Islamic law) and the “Hadith” (Mohammed’s Oral Law), Muslims are mandated to make agreements even if they have no intention of keeping them to advance the cause of Islam. Agreements called “Hudnas” are recommended which implements a “resting period” negotiated with the enemy but which is to end the moment the Islamists feel strong enough to renew the struggle or “Jihad” (war for Islam).

    The maximum time allowed for any such agreement is 10 years and then all such agreements with “infidels” must be abrogated and declared “null and void”.

    The Free Western world has yet come to grips with this irrevocable commitment to “Jihad” by Muslims. The Arab Muslims make the claim that their land and all others is sacred. Worse yet, the West and the liberal media instantly genuflect to the claim that Islam is dominant and more sacred than any other religion. There will be no Peace under the rules and mandates of Koranic Law, no matter what the Muslim Arabs say or sign.

    As for Olmert’s statement that “Israel will be finished!”, this shows a mind-set of a weak, dangerous leader who is ready and even anxious to accept defeat at the hands of Islam. It reminds us of when Olmert said: “I’m tired of winning.” – the mark of a defeatist.

    If you don’t want to believe what I say, you better pay attention to Manny Winston. He has a damned good track record for calling it as it will happen, in spite of the conventionality of his views.

    Shavua Tov.
    Have a good week.

  • http:.//ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I normally do not waste time with bullshit like this, the whining of Jews offended by the actions of those who hate them. Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert deserved the disgusting treatment they got at Annapolis. They never should have been there. But they went to America to be shat upon, and shat upon they were.

    Column One: Apartheid, not peace
    Caroline Glick , THE JERUSALEM POST Nov. 30, 2007

    This week the Bush Administration legitimized Arab anti-Semitism. In an effort to please the Saudis and their Arab brothers, the Bush administration agreed to physically separate the Jews from the Arabs at the Annapolis conference in a manner that aligns with the apartheid policies of the Arab world which prohibit Israelis from setting foot on Arab soil.

    Evident everywhere, the discrimination against Israel received its starkest expression at the main assembly of the Annapolis conference on Tuesday. There, in accordance with Saudi demands, the Americans prohibited Israeli representatives from entering the hall through the same door as the Arabs.

    At the meeting of foreign ministers on Wednesday, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni called her Arab counterparts to task for their discriminatory treatment. “Why doesn’t anyone want to shake my hand? Why doesn’t anyone want to be seen speaking to me?” she asked pointedly.

    The rest of this article can be viewed at this link.

    In the meantime, when your enemies twist the stiletto in your back, this is what it looks like.

    “I know what its like to hear that you can’t use a certain road or pass through a checkpoint because you are a Palestinian. I know what it is like to feel discriminated against and powerless,” Rice told a closed meeting of Arab and Israeli representatives, according to the Dutch representative at the summit, Franz Timmermans.

    The rest of this article can be found at this link, also from the Jerusalem Post.

  • moonraven

    sme49b1,

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    You can come on here and post absolute rubbish, yet you can’t even check in a search engine to see that the area that has been called Israel since 1948 was called Palestine (the Romans named it) for over 1900 years!

    So, Yes, I AM telling you [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] that there was a country there called Palestine for thousands of years–jusrt about 2 of them, to be precise.

    At NO point on this thread–or in any other venue–have I indicated that the Zionist terrorists were related to Rommel.

    Point of facts: Britain was given the Palestine Mandate at the end of WWI when the winners divided up the spoils of, among others, the Ottoman Empire.

    Beginning in the 1930s the Zionist terrorists became particularly active in the area, and the government of Britain decided it was more expedient for them to just let them raise hell and massacre the Arabs living there because they had more important fish to fry: fighting Rommel in the Egyptian and Libyan deserts.

    I am sure that you are still confused, as you have obviously never taken a single history class nor ever cracked a book about the area. But that is not my fucking problem.

  • moonraven

    Note to troll,

    Boy are you egocentric! You think the behavior of folks on this forum revolves around YOU.

    I take breaks from Internet when I stay in my village writing longhand on the presentation I am preparing and another theater piece or when I am celebrating birthday fiestas such as mine on Wednesday or doing whatever I damn please.

    When, in short, I do not go from my village into the town close to it to use an internet cafe.

    Unlike you chronically unemployed louts, I do not post in my pjs, shorts or naked as a jaybird to facilitate internet interactions.

    I do not take breaks from internet because of pipsqueaks like you.

    You are WAAAAAAAY out of your league.

  • http:.//ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    You can come on here and post absolute rubbish, yet you can’t even check in a search engine to see that the area that has been called Israel since 1948 was called Palestine (the Romans named it) for over 1900 years!

    So, Yes, I AM telling your ignorant insulting ass that there was a country there called Palestine for thousands of years–just about 2 of them, to be precise.

    Marthe,

    This is all a bit misleading. The Romans, having crushed the last remnants of the Judean kingdom in 73 CE, renamed the whole region Syria Palestina and governed it as a province. While doing so, they followed a systematic genocide of the Judean inhabitants here. But technology (like gas chambers) really speeds things up, so the Romans and their successors, the Byzantines, took a leisurely 600 years to pursue their genocidal designs on my people – kind of like what the whites did to the American Indians in North America. When the Moslems took over the place, the name Palestina was dropped and Syria remained. On European maps the region was called Terra Sancta (the Holy Land), and the Crusaders created here, after massacring Arab Christians and Jews, the Kingdom of Jerusalem. The name Palestine only reappeared on European maps after the Crusader states were destroyed by the Turks. But this area was always called South Syria by the locals and the rulers of the land, and it had no sovereignty as an independent state at all. The natives called themselves Arabs or Cherkess or Druze or Bedouin – or Jews. There was always a Jewish presence in this country, no matter how desolate it became under foreign rule.

    Nobody – but nobody ever called himself a Palestinian – until the British took over the League of Nations Mandate and Jews settling here called themselves “Palestinians” because that was what was written on the passport – along with the letters א”י alef yud, an abbreviation for the Hebrew, Eretz Yisrael. Moshe Dayan was a Palestinian. So was Zecharia Sitchen and a host of other Jews living in this country. The Arabs sniffed at the name and at the British, and insisted on being called “Arabs”. They called this place South Syria.

    It was only after losing this country to a Jewish entity did a terrorist trained by a Jew hater named Husseini come up with the Palestine Liberation Organization, and the goal of that organization (funded before 1967) was to liberate only that land held by Jews – even though the Jordanians and the Egyptians treated Arabs like trash.

    So much for the reality of “Palestine” as a country. It never existed as a sovereign entity in history – only as a Roman/Byzantine province or a British colony.

    That fools like Olmert now talk about the need for such a country, like puppets on American strings, only indicates that they are puppets who, like the Jewish High Priest 2,150 years ago, craved foreign gods over his own. This is the ugly mirror image of the dark days that Hanukkah deals with. Go read my very first article here at Blogcritics Hanukkah – Judaism’s Most Important Holiday. It’s very timely.

  • moonraven

    Ruvvy, I would have responded to this point by point, but when I got to the line about the Terra Sancta nomeclature by the Crusaders to indicate that the area in question was not Arab territory, I thought I was reading something by Dave Nalle.

    FYI, the Crusaders were calling that area The Holy Land because they were Christians, and not because they were trying to legitimize a Jewish homeland.

    You, of all people, should be more than aware that the Crusaders massacred every Jew they could get their hands on as they made their perverse pilgrimage to Terra Sancta!

  • http:.//ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    You’re very right, Marthe, both that the Crusasders massacred every Jew they could get their hands on, and that the Christians called this Terra Sancta out of their own religious ideology – not in an attempt to legitimize a Jewish homeland.

    We seem in violent agreement, so far….

  • sme49b1

    moonraven: You can come on here and post absolute rubbish, yet you can’t even check in a search engine to see that the area that has been called Israel since 1948 was called Palestine (the Romans named it) for over 1900 years!”

    Before the British called their mandate Palestine, the name had not been used to described a polity of any kind since before the Crusades. That’s a span of about 900 years. You can make the argument that it was used occasionally to describe a part of the Fertile Crescent, during the period, but that’s about it. In other words, not a country, not a province, not a district, just a geographical place name, much like Siberia and Silesia are place names.

    moonraven: Yes, I AM telling your ignorant insulting ass that there was a country there called Palestine for thousands of years–jusrt about 2 of them, to be precise.

    Please tell this ‘ignorant insulting ass’ approximately when these countries called Palestine existed, along with names of one or two of their leaders and the types of government, if possible. Inquiring minds want to know.

    moonraven: At NO point on this thread–or in any other venue–have I indicated that the Zionist terrorists were related to Rommel.

    From your comment #12 on this thread:
    “Birmingham is a hell hole, too good for the Zionist terrorists, but it was YOU BRITS who gave into them to fight Rommel in the desert.”

    Ergo, my question to you “..BTW, where did you come up with the idea that it was Zionist influence that caused fighting between the British and Germans in North Africa?”

    Nothing in my question about a relationship between any Zionists and Rommel, just an interest in your implication that it was the Zionists that pushed Britian to go to war with Germany.

    moonraven: Beginning in the 1930s the Zionist terrorists became particularly active in the area, and the government of Britain decided it was more expedient for them to just let them raise hell and massacre the Arabs living there because they had more important fish to fry: fighting Rommel in the Egyptian and Libyan deserts.

    Zionists massacring Arabs during WWII? Can you get a little specific here?

    As a matter of fact, at the time that mandatory Palestine was most vulnerable to attack from the Germans, there was very little violence between its Arab and Jewish populations.

    From “Jerusalem in the Twentieth Century” by Martin Gilbert… “Jerusalem itself was in danger in 1941 as Crete and Greece fell to the Germans. For a moment the Jewish-Arab dispute was suspended. On 8 August 1941 the former mayor of Jerusalem, Raghib Bey al-Nashashibi, gave a garden party. ‘It was, I think, the first time in four or five years at which Jews, Arabs and Englishmen attended a social occassion together’ Arthur Ruppin wrote in his diary.

    At the beginning of 1942 Rommel’s desert army came within striking distance of Cairo… A Committee of Public Safety was set up, in case the British had to withdraw from Jerusalem; it was headed by the three leading Jerusalemites – Dr [Judah] Magnes, Jamal al-Husseini and the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem.” (p.162)

    moonraven: I am sure that you are still confused, as you have obviously never taken a single history class nor ever cracked a book about the area.

    Actually, I have taken a few history classes and I have cracked a book or two on this subject in my time. However, since the information you have presented covers material heretofore unbeknownst to me I was hoping that you might elucidate further (which actually DOES make it your problem). Based on your initial response to my comments I somehow doubt that you will.

  • http:.//ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    From “Jerusalem in the Twentieth Century” by Martin Gilbert… “Jerusalem itself was in danger in 1941 as Crete and Greece fell to the Germans. For a moment the Jewish-Arab dispute was suspended. On 8 August 1941 the former mayor of Jerusalem, Raghib Bey al-Nashashibi, gave a garden party. ‘It was, I think, the first time in four or five years at which Jews, Arabs and Englishmen attended a social occassion together’ Arthur Ruppin wrote in his diary.

    At the beginning of 1942 Rommel’s desert army came within striking distance of Cairo… A Committee of Public Safety was set up, in case the British had to withdraw from Jerusalem; it was headed by the three leading Jerusalemites – Dr [Judah] Magnes, Jamal al-Husseini and the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem.” (p.162)

    That’s a heck of a moniker you use – sme49b1 – but thanks for the specific quote. It is most illustrative.

    Let’s expand on this a bit, for those who do not know how South Syrian Arab society works and who pick up all their news from CNN and its clones – and for those who do and who should know better.

    South Syrian Arabs, like most other Arabs, are divided into clans. These clans do not live at peace. Most of the Arab on Arab violence is clan warfare. The most powerful clans in South Syrian Arab society in the 1930′s – 1940′s were the Nashashibi and the Husseini clans. Note the host of the garden party in Jerusalem on 8 Aug. 1941. Raguib Bey al-Nashashibi. Between the two leading clans, the Nashashibis were considered friendlier to Jews than the Husseinis. Amin al-Husseini, strongly influenced by the Wahhabist teachings of the Moslem Brotherhood of Egypt, had been the “grand mufti” in Jerusalem and had stirred up anti-Jewish violence in the Mandate from the 1920′s through 1939, including massacres in Ir David and Hevron that killed hundreds. In addition, it was Amin al-Husseini who lobbied Hitler to set up his death camps in Europe and note in Eretz Yisrael as originally planned, and who trained Yassir Arafat to be a terrorist against our people. One has to wonder about a Committee of Public Safety with Jamal al-Husseini on it while his relative, the grand mufti, was in Europe at Hitler’s side.

    But this is merely background. In 1936, in addition to rebelling and attacking the Jews here, Arabs in the north started disrupting oil shipments from Iraq to Haifa by cutting the oil line that ran through the north of Eretz Yisrael.

    The British response, after failing to stop the Arab attacks themselves, was to send an officer of theirs to train a night fighting force to guard the oil lines. The night fighting force was chosen from the illegal and shadowy Hagana, the home guard militia of the kibbutzim.

    The British officer (his name escapes me at the moment) was a sympathizer to our efforts at resettlement, and he went beyond his original brief of training guards to sit night duty. He trained a force of shock troops to attack the Arabs at night in silence, a force that became known as the Palmá”H. The British higher-ups, finally waking up to what was going on, shipped the good man to Burma, where he died in action.

    What is the point? Those who complain of “Zionist terrorists” in the days of the Mandate overlook the Arab terror perpetrated against Jews in this country in those days. This same blind eye is generally cast upon Arab terrorists who later attacked the country under the name Fidayoun, and then later under the name al-FataH, and now under names like Hamas. Unfortunately the world view of these people, so clear on many other issues in the world, becomes curiously distorted either by Jew-hatred or by the hatred of what is obviously a dying entity, the State of Israel.

    En fin, the Zionist regime here will come to an end in the near future, as it has fulfilled its purpose and therefore lost its way. But, as I stated earlier in this thread, no sovereign Arab entity will ever arise on the soil of Eretz Yisrael. And the name “Palestine” will finally be tossed into the dust bin of history, along with the Romans who imposed it here. The last vicious ghost of the Roman legions and their savagery will have finally been interred.

  • http:.//ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    This article from Globes On-Line an Israeli business paper, has nothing to do with the “peace process” but drives home the point in my previous comment – that South Syrian Arabs are divided into clans which do not like each other.

    The relevant sentences in this closing of a pharmacy chain store in the Umm al Fahm Mall:

    The problem is that the Arab sector has a great many habits that we don’t know how to read from the commercial aspect. For example, some clans will never shop in this area because they are served by a different doctor. Despite our wish to foster business in the Arab sector, we did not obtain cooperation from the municipality or public officials.

    The clan structure also is part of town governance in all of Israel. The clan(s) that rule(s) in Umm al-Fahm is/are not interested in issues going beyond their own clan(s).

  • MAOZ

    Ruvy, I think the British officer you have in mind was Orde Wingate.

  • http:.//ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Yep, MAOZ, I was thinking of Orde Wingate. I must be getting old – can’t seem to remember simple things like names. Thanks a bunch….

  • sme49b1

    ruvvy,

    I try whenever I can to quote from authoritative sources.

    In re my moniker, it’s a relic from my days posting on the since departed NY Times discussion forums. The people at NYT stuck me with it and I’ve been using it ever since.

    Your description of clans as the basis for Arab society, especially as it relates to mandatory Palestine and current day Israel is spot on. One interesting piece of minutae that I would like to add – immediately after WWI when US President Wilson sent the King-Crane Commission to investigate the situation in the Fertile Crescent, local Arab notables such as members of the Nashashibi and Husseini clans, as well as the al-Dajanis and the Farruj went before the commission to present their case for absorption into the forthcoming Syrian state. It was only after the implementation of the Sykes-Picot agreement which put Syria into the French sphere of influence and divided the former Ottoman province roughly in half that there was any discussion at all about the possibility of a Palestinian state and even then, it was within the context of preventing the establishment of a Jewish one. The establishment of the Transjordan protectorate as a sop to the Hashemites for losing out to the house of Saud excluded local Arab nobility and thus magnified their desire for a ‘piece of the action’ lest they be squeezed out by the Jews and the Brits. If not for Abdullah I mandatory Palestine east of the Jordan River may well have been the solution to the current problem before it had a chance to manifest itself.

    This brings me to the other part of your comment. There are currently several million Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza, the great majority of whom are hostile to Israel’s very existence. Absorption would destroy Israel’s chatracter as a Jewish state. Expulsion, aside from the utter repugnance of the idea (especially in light of the number of expulsions suffered by the Jewish people in their history), is unworkable mainly because there is likely no Arab country willing to absorb them. Equally unworkable and repugnant is the idea of making the West Bank and Gaza an Israeli protectorate.

    So what’s left? Federation with Jordan? That still puts a sovereign Arab entity within the bounds of the biblical ‘Eretz Yisrael’, albeit with a different name.

    Eventually there will have to be some kind of sovereign Arab entity in what is now the West Bank and Gaza or parts thereof. That being said, no such entity can come into existence without first recognizing Israel’s existence as a Jewish state.

    Also, with regard to Zionism and its role in Israel’s creation and continuing existence, let me just say that God works in His own way and it’s about time that we stopped trying to interpret His actions in ways we find most fitting to our own agendas.

  • http:.//ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    sme49b1,

    My warnings of an Arab missile attack are based on data I’ve gotten from reliable sources close to Israeli intelligence. The extrapolation that Israelis will massacre Arabs as they see their homes burning is just that: an extrapolation based on an intelligence prediction. That this missile attack will cripple and put an end to the State is just one more extrapolation based on an intelligence prediction.

    The combination of these events is what will insure that no sovereign Arab entity arises in this land. Arabs will fight, lose and flee.

    In other words, I’m going on intelligence estimates of events, drawing reasonable extrapolations therefrom and coming up with a scenario. And this scenario, in one form or another, has only gotten stronger as a likely and logical outcome of events with time over the last several years.

    The problem with this scenario is that I won’t be on line to tell you “I told you so” if I’m right.

    Please note that in none of the paragraphs above have you seen the words “Zionist”, “Bible”, “prophecy” or “G-d” appear.

    In other words, only after coming up with a scenario that seems pretty solid, do I overlay Hebrew prophecy as an organizing principle. And what is really scary is that the prophecies, and the interpretations by our sages of those prophecies, seem to work very nicely with the intelligence estimates and expectations. There are just enough rough edges and unsolved issues to make it not too neat, and therefore a very sound analysis of events that I expect to occur.

    Don’t get me wrong here. A practical solution would be a federation of the Arab territories in Judea and Samaria, the Gaza Strip and Jordan. That would make a South Syrian Arab state a viable proposition with a real chance of building prosperity for the inhabitants therein.

    That is one possible solution.

    Another possible solution is one that I had hoped could be engineered before a major war broke out.

    It was based on the idea of religious officials from the Jewish and Moslem communities meeting informally, hammering out an agreement based on the Torah and Qur’an, and bringing it forward to their own communities and running an end run around the “officials” – really thugs with goons to give them “legitimacy” – who have “power”.

    But for a whole host of reasons, neither of these will happen.

    Let’s go over those reasons for you.

    1. Both “governments” in this area – the “Israeli” and “Palestinian” – are merely mafias of thieves sucking the people dry here. They hate each other, but love money more than they hate each other. For a time Dov Veisglas was the attorney both for Ariel Sharon and Yasser Arafat. Now that is an ego trip for a lawyer – riding two opposing tigers at the same time!

    2. The fact that both “governments” were mere mafias allowed a much bigger and stronger mafia – the United States government – to control them, and both sides have been amenable to American control to some degree, the Israeli side more than the “Palestinian”. The methods of control were similar for each side. On the “Israeli” side, the threat of cutting off aid combined with the threat of prosecution; on the “Palestinian” side, the threat of allowing the Israeli army to go in and kill the leaders – like Arafat, Abbas and Barghouti. Bullies are cowards who want to live.

    3. This brings us to Hamas. The folks who run Hamas are relatively honest compared to al-FataH, and have been benefactors of the Arabs they have tried to serve. They have not cut deals with the Israelis, as did al-FataH. When these boys say they intend to kill you, they mean it. For them to be in power was a big problem for the Israeli thugs looking to make a fortune off of “peace” and the “Palestinian” thugs looking to make a fortune off of foreign aid, extortion and deals with the Israeli politicians. In addition, it was a problem for their American handlers. So long as Hamas occupied center stage, the American and European plans to weaken Israel by forcing her to relinquish Judea, Samaria and Jerusalem were unviable and unrealistic.

    Hamas has been fenced into a corner of depending on Iran and HizbAllah, and forced off of center stage – so the stooges of the Americans, Olmert and Livni could play out the roles designated for them.

    But Iran, Syria and Hamas are still there, and still determined to make their mark. An they are building up missiles by the day to launch at us. The Second Lebanon War gave these fools a credibility they do not deserve. And the Bush administration are not good events managers at all. So there will be another war. That’s why the political solution won’t work.

    The second solution was also killed by the Second Lebanon War; the Second Lebanon War insures a further conflict. But it was killed by something else as well.

    Believe or not, there are Arab sheikhs and imams willing to negotiate a deal that creates a Jewish entity on the western side of the Jordan, and an Arab entity on the eastern side. This agreement is in keeping with the Qur’an. The Arabs living on the western side of the Jordan would gradually be helped to leave, and allowed to do so in a manner that would not besmirch their honor and not leave them as either paupers or refugees.

    But the irony is there are no Jewish religious leaders with a similar stature among us!! Virtually none of them have the ability to stand up and be leaders of the Jewish nation. For a short time in January of 2005, it appeared that Rav Elyashiv might – but in the end shekels for his yeshivas were more important than the fate of the whole Jewish people, so he sold out the 10,000 Jews in Gush Qatif for money for his yeshivas. That was the end of his possible stature as a national leader and hero.

    So while there are Arab religious officials who can negotiate a peace, there are no Jewish religious leaders who can.

    How’s that for irony? G-d has one hell of a sense of humor.

    So my prognostications will likely occur as I’ve written them, like it or not. And believe me, I don’t like it.

  • Moonraven

    You can split hairs all fucking day about WHY the Zionist terrorists existed, Ruvy.

    The other poster who refuses to accept that the Romans named the area Palestine while they were in control of it–and that it remained populated by Arabs–and when the Jews were given the boot–sSOLELY by Arabs until Zionist jews started dribbling back in the past century–also refuses to accept that Zionist terrorists existed.

    I will make this really simple for you:

    Seven years ago I was teaching in a private school in northern Mexico, and my students were preparing for a Model United Nations event that we hosted and in which students from 8 other schools from around the country participated.

    One of the groups was the Security Council, in which students representing different countries were asked to present an analysis and a solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict (please note that this was just after the second Intifada started).

    Chaos was reigning as my students were preparing, and they finally asked me if I could simply the very complex situation.

    I told them: Imagine that in your state, Coahuila, some folks who have been presecuted are given a place to live–sort of like what President Cardenas did for the refugees from Spain at the end of the Spanish Civil War–and those folks came and started building homes and businesses and creating farms and so forth.

    Imagine then that they started burning your houses and businesses and farms and killing your neighbors and family members and telling you that you were going to have to leave because the folks in the power gave THEM the priority to live there.

    What would you do?

    The students did not hesitant: Kick their ass!

    This may be an oversimplification for you, but it works for me.

    Decountrify Israel. It’s the ONLY solution that will bring peace to the Middle East.

  • http:.//ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Marthe,

    You dwell in the past too much. It doesn’t really matter anymore that Orde Wingate trained the Palma”H, or that Amin Husseini was instrumental in getting death camps and gas chambers built in Europe (the Nazis would have built them anyway to murder us off – but would have done it here, the ultimate and most vicious irony).

    And you will get your desire – sort of. The Zionist state will come to an end in the not too distant future. Zionism is finished as an ideology. But events will conspire to bring about a Jewish entity here, not an Arab one – for the reasons I set forth in the comment above.

    My primary worry is not whether these events will occur. They will. My primary worry is how much blood will have to be spilled before this comes about.

    That is why I’m not going to spend a whole lot of time over the fact that Jews have always lived here, and we have called this land Eretz Yisrael for 3,100 years – while the Romans were still wandering around in the swamps of Vitelia figuring out which kinds of grass to wipe their butts with. It really isn’t that important. Palestine, like Zionism, is on the way out and into the dustbin of history.

    Now, you were talking about spudless latkes on a different thread, and I never got around to asking you about a recipe. That’s important, not the soon to die rotting institutions of a world of lies….

  • sme49b1

    Ruvvy,

    You make some good points.

    I’m no fan of the current US government – we’re dealing with the most incompetent administration since Jimmy Carter. I’m also no fan of the Olmert government in Israel. Your implication that he is a political hack is pretty much on the mark, imo. And your prediction about an impending attack on Israel from the West Bank appears to have some substance to it, based on what I’ve seen and heard over the last few years since the Gaza pullout. It would then follow that in the near term a political solution is not in the offing.

    On the other hand, I don’t agree with your assessment of the ability of Arab leaders, religious or otherwise to make peace with Israel and recognize it as a Jewish state, regardless of their desire to do so. It would take someone of tremendous bravery and character to oppose the ‘right of return’, the necessity of Jerusalem as an Arab capital or for that matter to accept the idea of Israel as a Jewish state and expect to retain his/her life, much less position within society. You can’t even find any Arab of standing willing to raise his/her voice against the level of incitement against Israel and the Jews in the Arab media. Yes, there are Arabs who are interested in arriving at a permanent peace with Israel, but none of these people are in a position to do so.

    With regard to the ‘religious overlay’, imo it is an act of arrogance and ignorance on our part to try and interpert Divine will, much less give those interpretations any degree of certitude. God has given us a moral framework by which we can lead our lives and that framework has nothing to do with what He is about, much less what He will do. The problem with organized religion is that the rules have taken precedence over the objective, which as Hillel said is basically to do unto others as we would have done unto us.

  • sme49b1

    >> The other poster who refuses to accept that the Romans named the area Palestine while they were in control of it–and that it remained populated by Arabs–and when the Jews were given the boot–sSOLELY by Arabs until Zionist jews started dribbling back in the past century–also refuses to accept that Zionist terrorists existed.

    In the first place, I ever even mentioned the Romans, much less their decision to rename Judea. I asked you to suport your statement that there was indeed a sovereign Arab entity known as Palestine. The Roman ‘Palestine’ was a subdistrict of the province of Syria (the official name of the province was ‘Syria Palestina’). There were other adjacent districts with the term ‘Palstina’ in their names (e.g., Palestina Salutaris aka the southern Negev and the northern Arabian Desert), but none of these was ever a sovereign entity.

    Second, in 137, even after the priovince of Judea was renamed, it retained a Jewish plurality, if not outright majority. Other groups living within its borders included Greeks, Syrians, Persians and Idumeans (Note that while present day Syrians are considered to be Arabs that was not the case in Roman times. The descendants of those Syrians are today mostly known as Syrian Orthodox Christians – likewise as are the Egyptian Coptic Christians descendants of pre-Islamic Egyptians). Although Arabs were known in this part of the world through trade with the Arabian Peninsula, they were not native to it, much less a majority of its inhabitants.

    So far your responses to my questions have consisted of personal insults, distractions and unrelated anecdotes. You have not told me when there was an independent Palestine or who any of its rulers were and your response to my query about how Zionist influence led to to fighting in Africa between the British and Germans was an obvious fiction.

    Are you here to engage in a serious discussion or to hone your story telling abilities?

  • http:.//ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    sme49b1,

    You write,

    On the other hand, I don’t agree with your assessment of the ability of Arab leaders, religious or otherwise to make peace with Israel and recognize it as a Jewish state, regardless of their desire to do so. It would take someone of tremendous bravery and character to oppose the ‘right of return’, the necessity of Jerusalem as an Arab capital or for that matter to accept the idea of Israel as a Jewish state and expect to retain his/her life, much less position within society. You can’t even find any Arab of standing willing to raise his/her voice against the level of incitement against Israel and the Jews in the Arab media. Yes, there are Arabs who are interested in arriving at a permanent peace with Israel, but none of these people are in a position to do so.

    Actually,

    That is not quite correct. The Arab sheikhs and imams do not publicize themselves too much for security reasons, but they are there, here in this country and overseas. I know some of them myself.

    Yes it takes courage, but these men of courage are there writing and propounding their ideas. And they have lots of support under the surface of militance and terror. Many Arabs here are sick of war, death and all the mourning it brings – just as we are.

    There are Jews who hold like yourself in terms of not being arrogant in trying to interpret Divine Will. Rav Soloveichik makes a strong case saying just what you do. Against that one has to ask: whey did Ezekiel and Zechariah write? Why did Daniel write? What is the meaning of what they wrote? Why did our sages include them in the Tana”kh? What is the point of reading prophecy at all? When a prophet warns that “days are coming when…,” doesn’t he need to be listened to as well? Does he not also invoke the name of the G-d?

    And when the facts seem to match the prophecies and the concepts of redemption that our sages have propounded, isn’t it more dangerous to turn away in pretended humility in refusing to see the Hand of G-d and Its Shadow?

  • sme49b1

    Ruvvy,

    I don’t dispute the fact that there are many Arabs interested in coming to a permanent agreement with Israel that respects the rights of all involved. What I am saying is that they dare not make known this interest for fear of jeopardizing their own well being and that of their families. You yourself said that they are staying out of the limelight ‘for security reasons’. And without someone to step forward – on either side – their feelings and intentions don’t amount to very much.

    As to why the Prophets (and others) have written and thought about God’s will, simply put, they are like many others who seek to explain the unknown. They are not the problem. What is the problem is putting emphasis on style rather than substance. By putting the greater priority on the relationship with God (as set forth by a particular set of religious beliefs) rather than the relationship with our fellow human beings we miss the whole point. What good is the observance of rules human beings have set up to govern their relationship with God if they don’t improve our relationship with each other?

  • Jacob

    Ruvy, “What good is the observance of rules human beings have set up to govern their relationship with God if they don’t improve our relationship with each other?”

    If that hat fits, put it on and wear it.

  • http:.//ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I received this e-mail from one of the lists I’m on.

    First the link to the article, and then the relevant points to be made…

    An Interview With Sheikh Palazzi, 2005

    Sheikh Palazzi said, in part:

    On the contrary, then-Crown Prince Abdallah, the creator (together with the new Saudi ambassador to the United States, former Saudi ambassador to the United Kingdom, and Father of 9/11, Prince Turki al-Feisal) of al-Qa’ida, is immediately invited to Bush’s ranch as a honored guest, and Bush tells him, “You are our ally in the War on Terror”! Can one image FDR inviting Hitler to the United States and telling him, “You are our ally in the war against Fascism in Europe”?

    Something very similar happened after 9/11. As a matter of fact, the Saudis supported Bush’s electoral campaign for his first term in office, and asked him in exchange to be the first U.S. President to promote the creation of a Palestinian State. Once he was elected, Bush refused to abide by the agreement, and the consequence was 9/11.

    “We paid for your election, and now you must do want we want from you”, this was the message behind the 9/11 attack. Bush immediately started doing what the Saudis wanted from him: compelling Israel to withdraw from Judea, Samaria and Gaza, in order to permit the creation of a PLO state. Western media speak of a “Road Map,” while Arab media call it by its real name: “Abdallah’s Plan.”

    One hears about a U.S. President who allegedly leads a “War on Terror” and promotes the spread of “democracy” and “freedom” in the Islamic world, but the reality shows a U.S. president who — after a Saudi terror attack against the U.S. — abides by a Saudi diktat, hides the role of the Saudi regime behind al-Qa’ida and wants Israel, the only democratic state in the Middle East, cut to pieces to facilitate the creation of another dictatorial regime, lead by Arafat deputy Abu Mazen, the terrorist who organized the mass murder of Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics.

    Theoretically, Bush proclaims his intention to punish terror and to spread democracy, but the Road Map is the exact opposite of all this: it means punishing the victims of terror and rewarding terrorists, compelling democracy to withdraw in order to create a new dictatorial Arab regime. For the U.S. there is only one single trustworthy ally in the entire Middle East: Israel.

    Now Bush is punishing America’s ally Israel to reward those who heartily supported “our brother Saddam”, those who demonstrate by burning Stars and Strips flags and those who call America “the imperialist power controlled by Zionism”. In doing so, Bush seriously risks becoming the most anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish President in the history of the U.S.
    ………………..
    Now we have a U.S. President who claims to honor the Bible, and yet wants to give Arab dictators what belongs to the Jewish People. By doing so, Bush is not only rewarding terror, encouraging further terror and showing the world that terror works, but he is also opposing God’s will. I pray that the citizens of the U.S. will be spared the full consequences of this anti-Israel, anti-Jewish and anti-God foreign policy.

    This was before Israelis soldiers and police expelled ten thousands law biding citizens of 25 towns and villages the Israeli government encouraged these people to settle in. This government has not offered any recompense to its own citizens, who are treated like exiles in their own land. Arabs who have done terror against the citizens of this country are set free to mollify the Wahhabi pigs in Arabia, who are holding Bush as a hostage in the White House.

    The Israeli government is just as traitorous to us here as the Bush administration is to you – following the dictates of the Abdallah Plan.

    Wake up, fools!