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Palestinian Suffering: We Caused It. Let’s Fix It

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The Holocaust can never be forgotten. An estimated 6 million Jews were killed by Nazi Germany. 

After World War II, the Allied victors felt compelled by guilt to grant the Zionist/Jewish wish for a national Jewish state. Because Britain then controlled Palestine, which is where the Zionists felt their state should be, Britain, along with the UN came up with a partition plan to give the Jews a portion of Palestine for their homeland.

Since that time, Britain, Germany and the UN — meaning all developed nations — bear equal responsibility for Palestinian suffering.  Israel has had nearly 60 years to do the right thing. It is time for the world to step in and right the wrong it played a big part in creating.

Most Palestinians live with unemployment, depression, poverty and hunger; it has become so bad that child beggars are entering Israel from the supposedly better off West Bank. Children sent by parents who can't afford to feed them, to face the danger of knife point robbery and sexual abuse for a few dollars, tells us just how desperate the situation is in the West Bank — and it's even worse in Gaza.

Here's why: Israel is the occupying nation. With their checkpoints and border restrictions they keep Palestinians from visiting family and friends, which is likely to cause loneliness, hopelessness and depression, from getting to jobs and making exports difficult causing unemployment and poverty. Fear comes from air strikes and arrest operations. And all the above causes and exemplifies Palestinian anger.

The more Israel gets away with, the worse it gets, and the less likely a Palestinian state becomes. Like Israel failing to abide by the 4th Geneva Convention regarding the treatment of civilians by an occupying force. Israel does not regard the Geneva Convention as applying de jure to the West Bank and Gaza strip — yet says that the UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment does not apply to the occupied territories because they are covered by the Geneva Convention. That is a clear example of Israel saying we are above international law — and getting away with it.

In the summer war with Lebanon last year Israel used depleted uranium bombs and cluster bombs in civilian areas. Lebanese civilians are still paying for the latter with their lives, and the damage the uranium may have done to the soil, crops and female fertility remains to be seen.

The 10ft high security wall Israel is building has been ruled illegal by the International Court of Justice, not to mention the hordes of human rights groups, Israeli and global, speaking out about the huge atrocity it is. Israel keeps on building and the U.S. keeps treating her as a massive ally. Any attempts made by the U.N. Security Council to put a kerb on Israel's behaviour by issuing a resolution is vetoed by the U.S., which actually has the audacity to say the resolutions are biased against Israel. Israel acts like a rogue state and remains in the world's good books and cheque books.

The Palestinians want their own state and control over their own borders and destiny, but only Israel can grant that – which would cost Israel a lot of land and money, their sacred Jerusalem and chance for a greater Israel. Israel doesn't want to give up land, it wants to even more, and Israel is the one in control. The wall is a good example of Israel wanting to take more Palestinian land, as the wall is kilometres inside the proposed Palestinian state, when it could provide the same security from inside Israel's proposed border. All this should mean Israel isn't impartial, yet Israel can still influence how the world deals with the Palestinians.

Israel is a prosperous state, receiving billions of dollars in aid from the U.S. So who can blame the Palestinians for feeling despair and hopelessness when Israel on top of all the other bad things it causes in their lives was able to make the world stop giving aid to the Palestinians because they expressed their free will and elected Hamas. When the U.S. is following Israel's policy and constantly providing aid and acting on Israel's interests, of course the Palestinians are going to feel that the West is biased and mistrusts any efforts or initiatives they make towards peace, especially the U.S. This feeling that they aren't being treated fairly again worsens Palestinian anger, as does Israel continually getting away with violations like the wall.

I saw a programme once about the Nazi occupation of the Channel Islands, and I couldn't imagine anything worse than soldiers your nation is at war with being in control of your day-to-day lives. At least the Channel Islanders had hope that the Allies would be victorious and they would be liberated. Imagine living under an occupation that makes your life an impoverished misery, with the constant feeling that it is never going to end — that this is all your life will ever be. That, to me, is Palestinian life.

It needs to stop! Jews suffered the modern world's worst atrocities. But, although there has been no single atrocity on the scale of the Holocaust, the mass expulsions, civilian massacres like the one in Lebanon last year and those before, the everlasting toll on civilians always running much higher that that of Israel, the home demolitions, and the general misery combined over 60 years to mean the Palestinians have suffered just as much.

This should mean the world makes sure the Palestinians get their own state, just as Britain and the U.N. decided Jews were entitled to their own state because of their suffering in the holocaust.

The UN should foot the bill for the Palestinian state. Offering the refugees, say, a sizeable sum for all they lost and the years of suffering. It should force Israel to give back all the land it took in 1967 including East Jerusalem, giving them a set time to decide what land it needs to swap; give Israeli land equivalent of any Palestinian land it needs to keep to maintain the security of all Israelis, including settlement blocs.

Paying the refugees should mean Israel has no reason to refuse, but if combined with Israel's reliance on international assistance isn't enough to force their hand, no option should be taken off the table. Israel will complain about their security but with the full UN on the case, guarantees to ensure Israel's security could certainly be made. It's time to forcibly remove all obstacles and give peace a chance.

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About Liam Bailey

  • Franco

    And the moon is made of green cheese.

    Still pumping out fallacy-ridden propaganda. One could think that you are just obtuse, but I do not believe you are, and I know you don’t either.

    Mr. Bailey, it’s no different then lying.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Franco,

    Could you put some mustard, humus and tomato on that green cheese sandwich? And please make sure it has multigrain bread.

    TIA,
    Reuven

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    This relentless harping on the same story over and over again actually raises my curiosity. Does he just like hitting his head against the same stone wall over and over again, or is he secretly driven by a racist, anti-zionist agenda which I sometime sse peeping through in his terminology and phrasing. Sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference between the soft anti-zionism of international socialists and the harder form driven by racism, and these articles always seem to tread the fine line between the two.

    Dave

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Psst! Dave! There’s a time-sensitive article in “pending” for you to publish…

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    Dave,

    I think you are the one who has hit your head off a wall…

    Perhaps you can tell me what terminology you are reffering to, probably the 4th geneva convention that did it. Bereft of argument for my point you’ve pulled out the anti-semitism card.

    It is regular tactic by those Jews who want to maintain the status quo and druel at the thought of a greater Israel, those like Ruvy, to call anyone or anything that criticizes the behaviour and policies of the Israeli government, with respect to Palestinian and peace, racism or anti-semitism. To be honest with you, I know the truth, if Israel stopped all the policies I have a problem with today and returned the land taken in 1967 or its equivalent, adequately compensating all refugees, I would write a massive article bigging them up. Until then I will continue to tell the truth about what Israel is doing.

    It is always when — the truth — Israeli violations of international law are brought to light, facts that no one can argue with that brings out the anti-semitism card. Get some new material I mean really, it’s getting tired.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Hey Liam!

    Can’t I get a fuckin’ blue cheese sandwich around here without you whining away like a pricked haggis? I just want some editor to publish my pending article! It makes your screed look and smell like the trash it is.

    Read my article – then bitch.

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    Ruvy,

    Its all about personality and psycological profile.

    We all hear the same news, see the same pictures, read the same articles and know the same facts. It is how our brain interprets them that defines us, that is why i can’t change your opinion on world politics and you can’t change mine.

    I believe and desire world peace. I believe and desire a just world where everyone has all they need to live a happy and fulfilling life. I think that all big corporations and rich people should be forced to give all their wealth bar one million to the needy and starving children in the world, and that from that point on should only be able to make a few million each year and the rest goes to feed the starving. So, unless you’ve had a labotamy I won’t be reading your article. As I have never read any of your articles — I just don’t see the point. Feel free to stop reading mine.

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    I fail to understand what Franco, Ruvy and Dave are objecting to. Respectively, you make accusations without supplying an alternative argument, seek to negate the point of view in the article by mockery and make a pointless and specious argument which the author of is also open to.

    This isn’t a political discussion by any stretch of the imagination and if I wasn’t in such a good mood this lovely sunny morning in Granada (you know, Dave, the place with the Rock and the monkeys, lol), I’d have deleted all the above comments.

    C’mon guys, I know you’re all prejudiced, but you can do better than this…

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    Hmm, Liam goes for reasonable discussion, Ruvy goes for tantrums. Who to believe? Who to believe?

    Seriously, Ruvy, why don’t you either take Liam’s suggestion and not read his stuff or otherwise take mine and try and come up with some counter arguments that deal with the contemporary political situation?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    It’s L-O-B-O-T-O-M-Y, Liam. Even in the Queen’s English. If you’re going to brag about being a writer, at least spell correctly.

    “…unless you’ve had a labotamy I won’t be reading your article. As I have never read any of your articles — I just don’t see the point. Feel free to stop reading mine.”

    I think there is a line in the Christian book about ‘he who will not open his eyes will not see’, somethin’ like that. You probably know the line better’n I. Since you refuse to open your eyes – even to read an adversarial opinion – you’ll continue to butt you head on the same wall of Arab lies that you repeat article after article.

    In case you do not know, Dave Nalle grew up in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria. HE SYMPATHIZES WITH THE ARABS FAR MORE THAN I DO. According to what he has written in the past, he once felt that Israel should be nuked – on principle. He’s moved away from that view, but his sympathies are definitely with the South Syrian Arabs, the “Palestinian” people living here who are exploited so brutally by their fellow Arabs, and who have had to fight against them for their survival. If he writes “This relentless harping on the same story over and over again…” about your articles, you really ought to re-examine what you write and think. He is on your side more than your realize.

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    Chill out, Ruvy. You also make spelling mistakes from time to time, including missing the “r” off “your” in the above comment. C’mon mate, enage with the issues or stop whining…

  • Dr Dreadful

    Chris, don’t we Brits have an apt phrase that describes this Ruvy-Liam feud?

    “Handbags at dawn”.

  • Clavos

    You know a discussion is going nowhere (perhaps because it wasn’t worth discussing in the first place?) when the best either side can do is resort to spell checks of each other’s posts.

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    I’m not on either side, Clavos, I just think Ruvy is capable of a better response than he’s managed so far, not that he’s alone in that by any means.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Chris,

    Everything I needed to say, I said in comment #10. I the fool refuses to even read the work of an adversary, much less recognize that someone that should be on his side isn’t, and ask why, there is nothing more to be said.

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, all you said in #10 was unresponsive to Liam’s points, right or wrong as they may be. You sure use a lot of words for someone who thinks that “there is nothing more to be said”.

    It is irrelevant that you think someone else ought to be on his side and isn’t, either debate with the man or stop reading his stuff and being rude…

  • senad

    none of this people who posted comments show any care for conditions of life in palestine
    anyone who show any thoughts about is accused being antisemitic . semitic people are all arabs people and jews and everybody on the penincula so how come jews are only semitic?

  • moonraven

    Although I am not partial to the way Liam presents his case, I do agree with him.

    I think the Israelis have milked enough guilt money out of the US and Europe and should simply be booted out on their butts if they even open their mouths one more time about the Palestinians.

    AND Olmert should be tried for crimes against humanity, en passant.

    It´s high time that those whining snivelers stopped committing genocide against others just because it was committed against them.

    The eye for an eye shit just does not cut it anymore.

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    FYI Ruvy,

    I have read plenty of articles in Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post wiht views the total opposite of mine, but guess what, as I sai to you, their articles didn’t change my view one iota, just as your view hasn’t been changed by reading all of my articles. Because, as I said, we are all working with the same facts, the difference is in our interpretation of them.

    The reason I avoid your articles is because I feel you are biggoted in your opinions, and have read enough of your arguments in comments on my articles to know that you won’t change my views, to read your article would be nothing more than a waste of my time, which I have precious little of as it is.

    BTW, thanks for pulling me up on my spelling of lobotomy, I typed it three times before leaving it with what I had, I just wasn’t sure how it was spelt and as it was only a comment, not an article I didn’t check the dictionary, that old precious time again. FYI, I really don’t spend too much time proofreading comments, so feel free to waste yours doing it for me, if that’s how you get your kicks…

    And another FYI, if Dave Nalle sympathisez with Arabs I’m a dutchman, he’s a rightie through and through.

    Until you come up with a counter-argument, as Chris says, it’s goodbye from me.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    This is really pretty:
    I believe and desire world peace. I believe and desire a just world where everyone has all they need to live a happy and fulfilling life. I think that all big corporations and rich people should be forced to give all their wealth bar one million to the needy and starving children in the world, and that from that point on should only be able to make a few million each year and the rest goes to feed the starving.

    Here’s a classic on the same theme:
    One evening as the sun went down and the jungle fire was burning
    Down the track came a hobo hiking and he said boys I’m not turning
    I’m headin for a land that’s far away beside the crystal fountains
    So come with me we’ll go and see the Big Rock Candy Mountains

    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains there’s a land that’s fair and bright
    Where the handouts grow on bushes and you sleep out every night
    Where the boxcars are all empty and the sun shines every day
    On the birds and the bees and the cigarette trees
    Where the lemonade springs where the bluebird sings
    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains

    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains all the cops have wooden legs
    And the bulldogs all have rubber teeth and the hens lay soft boiled eggs
    The farmer’s trees are full of fruit and the barns are full of hay
    Oh, I’m bound to go where there ain’t no snow
    Where the rain don’t fall and the wind don’t blow
    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains

    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains you never change your socks
    And the little streams of alcohol come a-trickling down the rocks
    The brakemen have to tip their hats and the railroad bulls are blind
    There’s a lake of stew and of whiskey too
    You can paddle all around ‘em in a big canoe
    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains

    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains the jails are made of tin
    And you can walk right out again as soon as you are in
    There ain’t no short handled shovels, no axes saws or picks
    I’m a goin to stay where you sleep all day
    Where they hung the jerk that invented work
    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains

    I’ll see you all this coming fall in the Big Rock Candy Mountains

    Now, if you could just add a verse about there being no Jews on the BRCM, it’d be perfect, wouldn’t it?

  • moonraven

    Liam,

    Folks are picking at nits in your article because their brains are full of them–and they have no counter-arguments.

    The right wing prejudices on this site are legion: women, Native Americans, anyone of brown skin, intellectuals, etc etc etc.

    You can see the red on their necks from the stratosphere.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    “And the long hair can’t cover up my red neck”

  • Alec

    RE: This should mean the world makes sure the Palestinians get their own state, just as Britain and the U.N. decided Jews were entitled to their own state because of their suffering in the holocaust.

    The 1947 United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine or United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 specified a Jewish state, a Palestinian state and an internationally administered area, although the areas designated for each group were so absurdly demarcated that dissatisfaction was inevitable.

    However, since that time, absolutely nothing has prohibited Palestinians from laying out a map of where they think their state should be, which would set the table for compromise. Except for the fact that practically every proposal from the Palestinians that I have ever seen, including the writings of a supposed moderate such as the late Edward Said, has always included the right of every Palestinian and their descendants to return to the homes that they abandoned when the other Arab nations promised that they would toss the Jews into the sea. The right of return, of course, would always require that Israel cease to exist.

    Arab nations have kept Palestinians in camps, kept them poor, and have exploited and oppressed them often for their own ends, as in Lebanon and other areas. Palestinians have also been an indirect victim of British national and economic interests, since Jordan (formerly Transjordan) came into existence as a separate mandate in order to accommodate British oil interests in the early 20th century. Oddly, nobody much complains now that the legitimacy of Jordan is questionable and might more reasonably have been part of a Palestinian homeland.

    I don’t have any easy answers for this long standing dilemma. But I do know that to blame Israel and the West as the source of all obstacles to a mutually agreeable solution is just flat out wrong.

  • http://http//warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    Alec,

    It’s not about blame, it’s about power.

    Israel is far more powerful than the Palestinians, so if Israel wanted to end the conflict the Palestinians couldn’t stop them but the opposite isn’t true. And as I said in my article the Palestinains have been and continue to be the biggest losers out of the conflict. All the while Israel is taking more land with the wall, land which should be part of a future Palestinian state, demolishing homes, Judaizing Jerusalem of which the eastern part should become the Palestinian capital, withholding millions of dollars in Palestinian tax revenue, and generally riding rough-shot over Palestinian life while the UN and the world watches, oh and gives Israel money. Israel is getting millions in U.S. military aid because it is in a constant state of war and existential fear, another reason not to seek peace with the Palesitinians.

    As for my Geneva Convention reference, I was speaking of the 4th Geneva Convention which relates to the treatment of civilians in a time of war, I read it in full and Israel is outright breaking it. Israel says that the fourth Geneva Convention doesn’t apply de jure to the West Bank and Gaza, but they say the aren’t following the UN treaty for the treatment of civilians and prisoners in the West Bank and Gaza because the areas are covered by the Geneva Convention, so all the while there is no law covering Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians – and Israel makes the most of it.

    If Israel wanted peace they should offer a million dollars to each refugees family and pull back to the pre-1967 borders, offering land-swaps where necessary, that would really start the ball rolling.

    I just think that Israel is taking advantage of the world being on their side, and the Palestinians are just getting trampled all over. I know I could live happily as an Israeli, but I know how miserable I would be as a Palestinian.

    I wrote my article because everyone is looking to Israel and the Palestinians to find peace, but most of the Palestinian leadership are martyrs who hold onto right of return like their life depends on it, yes I admit right of return is another obstacle to peace. But I also believe that Israeli leadership, Zionists really don’t want peace either, Israel has never defined borders because they want to keep taking land for as long as they are allowed, so they are ragging it out as much as they can, and the Palestinian leadership is letting them drag it out, well making it easier for them.

    That is why i think the powers in the world should step in, like an adult in the school yard or a parent and say:

    Right, you pull back to the 67 lines and compensate the refugees, this senseless conflict has gone on long enough and you stop all forms of terrorism and be happy enough with your new states to live side by side in peace, OR ELSE!! A threat that really only the U.S. can make in this world.

    Basically I feel so sorry for the Palestinians and I just want it to end.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Yeah Liam, this right here is absolutely factually untrue: Israel is far more powerful than the Palestinians, so if Israel wanted to end the conflict the Palestinians couldn’t stop them but the opposite isn’t true. I find it difficult to accept that you actually believe something so clearly untrue.

    The Palestinians could easily end the conflict and get much more for themselves. The Israelis would LOVE to give them a goddam state. They keep trying to do so, and GWB has certainly encouraged it. All the Palestinians would have to do would be to quit massacring Jews at every opportunity. Is that too much to ask?

    Every bit of evidence is that Palestinians by and large are much more interested in hurting Jews than they are in doing anything for themselves, so their current misery is what they more than deserve. If you wish to whine about how this is unfair to The Children, then blame their parents and leaders for putting them in harms way – and for recruiting them as suicide bombers and such.

    I’ll grant, though, that the first part of the statement is true: Israel is more powerful, and they COULD stop the conflict with a quickness – but I doubt you’d like how that went.

  • moonraven

    Where is your evidence for the absurd claim that Israel would LOVE to give the Palestinians a state?

    I thought that Clavos had taken the prize yesterday for the single most foolish comment ever posted on this site, but I see now that he is no competition for you, Al.

    I recommend a History 101 class at a community college near you–or perhaps even a return to high school to get that diploma.

  • Alec

    Liam – RE: It’s not about blame, it’s about power.
    Israel is far more powerful than the Palestinians, so if Israel wanted to end the conflict the Palestinians couldn’t stop them but the opposite isn’t true. And as I said in my article the Palestinains have been and continue to be the biggest losers out of the conflict.

    This is a very odd and empty series of statements. There is absolutely NOTHING that prevents the Palestinians from submitting to the UN a map of their proposed state. Except one tiny little thing. The fact that within the Arab world, the idea of a separate Palestinian state can never be proposed, because the Palestinians and their Arab allies refuse to formally accept the legitimacy of the existence of Israel.

    The official line of the Palestinians is that they have a right to all of the land (underscored under the right of return), and that at best Jews and Christians might be allowed to live within a restored Palestinian territory. I simply do not understand why you and others who talk about wanting peace, but ignore the practical political issues on the table.

    The world has recently observed the partition of India. The obnoxious nationalism and desire for a land of the pure, for Muslims only, which saw the demand for the separate nation of Pakistan is a variation of the same impulse which prevents Palestinians and other Arabs from accepting the existence of Israel.

    It’s not about power. It’s about a sad, persistent refusal of some Muslims to want to live as equals with other people, and their sense of humiliation that they have not yet been able to dislodge Israel.

    The Saudis and the Kuwaitis could have used some of their oil billions either to re-settle Palestinians or to make their lives far more comfortable than is presently the case. Instead, they spend money on toys, on extravagant palaces and hotels, and war and military equipment.

    As an aside, this intransigence is no just a Muslim or Arab sentiment. Despite all the hoopla about peace in Northern Ireland, the plain fact is that a number of Irish Catholics can never accept the idea of an independent Protestant country existing anywhere in Ireland, even though, historically, the entirety of Ireland was never a single unified country. Sri Lanka, Cyprus, Kashmir, Quebec, Basque Spain, pick an area and you can find persistent, murderous nationalism.

    I repeat. There is nothing, no suppression or containment by Israel or by the US, that prevents the Palestinians from coming before the UN this very afternoon and presenting a map of their independent country, even if that map would then have to be discussed and re-tooled for the sake of compromise.

    Nothing. Nothing, that is, except the continued Palestinian delusion that one day they will toss the Jews into the sea.

  • moonraven

    I am not even Palestinian and I think the Israelis should be tossed into the sea.

  • Lumpy

    But that’s just because you’re a racist like most socialists, moonraven.

  • bliffle

    “…you’re a racist like most socialists, …”

    …and most conservatives, as witness the cynical acquisition of the racist vote by the conservatives in the ’60s.

    Every faction is racist when they realize they can make an unspoken racist appeal to masses of people with a silent wink-wink nod-nod campaign of racism.

    It’s as ignoble a political stratagem as the ignoble racism that makes it possible in the ethically-challenged human race.

  • Clavos

    Using ignoble and politics in the same sentence makes it tautologous.

  • bliffle

    Actually, “we” didn’t cause the current suffering of palestinians, their beloved brothers in the middle east did. After WW2 MANY people were displaced by the horrors of WW2 (first by the nazis and their allies, and then by the murderous onslaught of the commies) and western nations sought to provide new homes for those “displaced persons” (DPs). The western nations were tasked with absorbing hundreds of thousands of DPs from Poland, Hungary, Czeckoslavakia, etc., and the ME countries were tasked with absorbing the 200k palestinians displaced by the resettlement of homeless persecuted jews to Israel.

    Most western countries performed their obligations in good faith. The state of Illinois did not refuse these poor bedraggled DPs from Eastern European countries with strange names, nor did Virginia or any other USA state. Even in European countries grumbling about this further imposition on their resources the DPs were grudgingly accepted.

    But, uniquely among the nations, the ME countries saw this as an opportunity to create pressure on their hated foes, the jews, by refusing aid and comfort to their fellow cutists. So they are directly responsible for the millions of palestinian refugees we now see.

  • bliffle

    Maybe it was arrogant of The Allies to make these big decisions, but Something Had To Be Done. And it was plain cynical political manipulation to do what the ME countries did, and it resulted in the death and misery of millions of their ‘brothers’. What a bunch of a**holes.

  • Franco

    #8 — Christopher Rose

    “I fail to understand what Franco, Ruvy and Dave are objecting to……. you make accusations without supplying an alternative argument……… negate the point of view in the article by mockery……… This isn’t a political discussion by any stretch of the imagination………… C’mon guys, I know you’re all prejudiced, but you can do better than this…”

    Ruvy, Dave and I have all supplied alternative arguments countless times before in response to Liam’s on ongoing campaign on this subject matter here on BC. If you were doing your job you would clearly know that. So playing naive with the “I fail to understand” comment isn’t cutting it.

    This shows that your analysis of this situation is neither neutral nor objective, it is subjective. I assert that your accusations against us results from a perception of unacknowledged favoritism from your own-shared bias for the positions that Liam takes on this specific subject matter. You have failed in your position and responsibly as a comments editor for a careful and disinterested exercise of arbitration and assessment.

    For the record, I have tried discussion/debated with Liam on the facts, with links supporting those facts, and he has chosen not to respond to my counter assertions.

    Case in point:

    BC Opinion Piece – July 28, 2007 Slim Chance of Mid-East Peace by Liam Bailey

    Note that in this July piece there are a total of only 11 comments on this thread, which by the way include posts from Ruvy, Dave. So it was not an over active thread for Liam to respond burdened in reposonding to Commenters.

    Note that I engage Liam with three posts. Liam responds to my first post comments with a question and a statement. I answer his question and statement with two more posts using factual counter assertions and I provide links. He never response to either. He won’t engage with the facts. I have seen Liam do this over and over. So what dose he do instead, he just runs off and posts another fresh fallacy ridden propaganda opinion pieces on BC.

    Liam is not here to discuss/debate this matter, he is here to run a propaganda machine at BC’s expense. It gets to be a joke after awhile watching Liam play out the same hoax over and over. It is shameful that someone can abuse BC as a propaganda base of operations. It is shocking to see a comment editor allow it to happen. It is outrageous for a comment editor to call down sincere debaters tired of the hoax rather then the true exploiter.

    In all of my efforts I strive to be part of holding up BC to the higher standard of discussion/debate. So don’t try and use me in cheap shots to work your own biased agenda and then try and cover it up by putting me down with an editors comment in a self righteous spirit of maintaining higher debating standards.

    I will be glad to reply to Liam in this thread with detailed counter argument as there are boat loads, but considering his track record, before I go to that effort, I want Liam to show us all that he is willing to respond to my counter argument on his opinion piece of July 28, 2007 where he ran off in the face of the facts. If he can do that then he deserves respect for discussion/debate.

    Until then you and he are pissing in the wind.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    The reasons I’ve not engaged Liam or his arguments are two-fold – his arrogant assertion that he’ll not read an adversarial article, like mine, and the fact that attempting to argue with his delusionary assertions is like trying to catch a greased pig.

    My absolute refusal to engage in the second is a result of the first.

    In my own news update, I’ve made plain “who are the villains in the piece.” Liam and I both tend to view the American government as being at fault, but I’ve pointed out clearly that imperial American interference has tended to side with the Arab terrorists and Saudis and as business partners. The result has been that the United States government has repeatedly sided with those Arab rulers who suppress the populations they rule over, like Arafat, Mahmoud Abbas, and Abdallah II, and have consistently undermined those Arab rulers who might have their own people’s interests at heart.

    What Liam ignores completely in his mis-analysis of the facts on the ground here is that the Israeli secular elite and the regime that governs for it has viewed the “Palestine” enterprise as a huge cash cow for personal enrichment. The Israeli government is nothing more or less than a criminal mafia bent on stealing from Jews and Arabs alike. This has given Hamas, which refuses to cut deals with this criminal mafia, a certain legitimacy that Fatah lost the minute they kicked out the native Arabs who had led the first intifada and installed Arafat’s crooks in their place.

    But when push comes to shove, the South Syrian Arabs prefer to live in peace with us Jews. And we prefer to live in peace with them. Our “peace” movement has been bought out by CFR traitors and self-hating Jews like Ilan Pappe- the Arab peace movement has been suppressed into silence. Those are the facts on the ground, like it or not.

    As for Liam, he has written only two pieces worth reading on this part of the world – both explore efforts of Arabs in Israel to make money. This one is the better of the two.

    I had the opportunity to communicate with one of the business owners he interviewed. The fellow, a good man from Britain whose heart is in the right place, admits that his business is on the skids. But the truth is that while there is much Arab poverty, particularly in Gaza, there is also much prosperity and building going on.

    When Ma’aléh Levoná was first settled in the 1980’s only the Arab village of Sínjel was here. But the Jewish presence has brought other Arabs to settle around us, building villages in the valleys surrounding the hills upon which we have settled in Shiló, ‘Elí and Shvut RaHél. Now, across the road from us on Highway 60 is an Arab village, another one or two in the valley immediately to the north. Arabs cultivate olives here. There is money to be made from the land, and cooperation between us and them would make Judea and Samaria fertile, prosperous and happy, and would bring enough money to close the refugee camps west of the Jordan River, at least. But the culture of theft and war in Ramallah and Gaza, and the criminal culture of theft in Jerusalem all prevent this.

    There is the possibility of peace between the Children of Abraham. I had hoped that this route might be pursued before deadly wars flooded this part of the world in blood. But now, I despair of this possibility.

    Let us finally disabuse ourselves of the myth of “Palestine” and leave it in the dustbin it deserves to be in.

    This is the name given to my homeland by Roman savages who sought to insult Jews in every way possible, in addition to committing genocide here. The Arabs never talked about “Filastin” until they saw Jews making the land flourish where they had seen only desolation for centuries.

    Arabs under the British Mandate here sneered at the name “Palestinian,” viewing this area as South Syria. Palestine is the marketing attempt of the Husseini clan to try and steal from us what we have worked so hard to build, a prosperous nation. In all the centuries that the Arabs have dominated this land they founded one village – Ramle. Nablus is the Arab pronounciation of the Roman Napolis, Sínjel is the Arab pronunciation of the French St. Gilles, etc.

    The South Syrian Arabs have prospered because we Jews have done our level best to bring prosperity to a land they left in desolation. NOW they copy us and attempt to make the hills of Judea and Samaria bloom.

    We’re not leaving here. Not alive anyway. And our enemies will die before they kick us out.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    …and most conservatives, as witness the cynical acquisition of the racist vote by the conservatives in the ’60s.

    So long as you are honest and point out that those ‘conservatives’ were Democrats, while the Republicans took the lead in civil rights reform.

    As for the complaints about Liam, as I said earlier, it’s just another example. The left does not want to discuss or debate. They want to lecture us and have us sit silently and listen. Ideally they’d like us to be compelled somehow to agree, but that’s a bit unrealistic.

    And another FYI, if Dave Nalle sympathisez with Arabs I’m a dutchman, he’s a rightie through and through.

    Why do you think that support for arabs or support for jews is an issue of left or right? I realize that international socialists have thrown their lot in with the Arabs, but here in America we’re a little more diverse. I’m for the Arabs AND for Israel, a perspective which is utterly beyond your comprehension.

    You see this issue in black and white. Israel bad, Arabs good. It’s not that simple. The Palestinians are NOT the bad guys here, and neither are the Israelis. As I’ve said before, the problem is the powerful groups in the Arab world who use the Palestinians as surrogates in their hostility towards Israel, perpetuating a conflict which they use to shore up their political power by presenting Israel as a threat and the jews as bogeymen.

    Dave

  • Dr Dreadful

    The left does not want to discuss or debate. They want to lecture us and have us sit silently and listen. Ideally they’d like us to be compelled somehow to agree, but that’s a bit unrealistic.

    Hey!

    I consider myself on the left (at least by American standards) and that does not describe me.

    One thing I hate about the right is how they all make sweeping generalizations about those on the left…

  • Clavos

    “One thing I hate about the right is how they all make sweeping generalizations about those on the left…”

    Heh.

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam BAiley

    Franco and anyone else I have failed to respond to.

    I just don’t have the time to spend all day sitting here responding to comments, I have a ten month old child and a full-time job as well as my writing fiction, poetry and non-fiction.

    Sometimes, like in the case you provided Franco, our argument over the Hamas thing on slim chance, when I thought about my response it just ran on and on, i.e. I couldn’t respond quickly, I don’t like to anyway. As you can see from my comments above, if I get into a real debate with someone my comments tend to go on forever, as do their comments in return, then mine, so on and so forth and before you know it three hours have passed.

    I’ll just finish this thread with this. My articles are opinion, and you were right on the Slim Chance thread, I do know the facts, and my opinion articles are based on my OPINION of what the facts mean. When you comment you state your opinion, which is as different from mine as chalk and cheese (blue if you like), so you have your opinion and I have mine, let’s just agree to disagree and move on.

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    Franco, glad to see you’re still displaying the habitual empty arrogance that is the trademark of your contributions to BC. you ought to see if you can copyright that, although I suspect several other contributors here woulld sue if you did!

    It’s not my “job” to rush off and read other commentaries, so your observation is based in a basic delusion, which, of course, you’re so good at.

    You then follow up that nonsense with the even more tired cliche of saying I’m subjective. Well, I’d like to meet somebody who is not. That would be a first! It’s not you though, you’re more loaded with presumptions than a Gatling gun is with bullets – and you’re just as indiscriminate…

    The only neutrality I’m required to exercise is applying the comments policy in as even-handed way as possible. My choices were to delete some shallow personal attacks or attempt to raise the debate to a more interesting level. Thanks for the heads-up as to which course I should more likely consider pursuing with you in the future…

    Ruvy, you sure are as persistent as an old time preacher! It is rather disingenuous of you to proclaim loftily that you won’t engage with Liam as you compulsively post comments to his articles! Mind you, at least in your comment number 35, you have indeed risen to the challenge of posting something substantial by way of response and I thank you for that.

    For the record (and pay close attention now, Franco), I don’t agree with either Liam or you. Although it is helpful to know the background of the situation, any possible solution has to be found here in the present day.

    Just as the one time extremists of Ireland have found it possible to get over all the past bitterness, extremism and hatred in order to forge a hopefully better future for all, so the Israelis and their neighbours must find the inner resolve and integrity to forge such a future for their peoples. I find it difficult to imagine any other circumstances, including your revolting vision of a regional nuclear armageddon, that could actually bring about such a result.

    Dave, you REALLY need to get over this persistent delusion that you are objective and can actually be a fair witness. You are just as value and judgement laden as the rest of us and your repeated claims to be able to debate based solely on the facts is as tedious as it is illusory. Your excessively repeated observation of the “left” being dogmatic and incapable of debate is as shallow as it is inaccurate. Mate, it’s okay to be subjective, nobody expects you to be otherwise. Being aware of your biases or pejudices is a prerequisite to being able to see past them…

    Doc D, thanks for injecting a note of common sense. Obviously you are still a Brit at heart! ;-)

    Liam, as I’ve remarked both above and before, I don’t agree with your perception of the situation but I note that you are, at least, well aware of your subjectivity. As such, I consider you as someone who is capable of rising above your belief set to work towards a just peace for all. For that, at least, you deserve some respect.

  • bliffle

    Hey Clav, DD was making a sly joke at his own expense. Very graceful. One would expect no less.

  • Clavos

    I know, bliffle…

    And agree.

    With you.

  • steve

    sounds like someone hasn’t put down Jimmy Carter’s god-awful “book”

  • moonraven

    I question that the comments editor once again has deleted my complaint about his allowing Dave Nalle to clone himself all over this site.

    I do not feel that it is within the scope of his duties.

    And it shows his favoritism in a particularly dodgey light.

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    moonraven, you can question it all you want but it is simply not true that Dave does that. I am fiercely committed to protecting this site and if Dave was doing that, I would both publicly out him for it and kick his ass! Furthermore, if you think that I am biased in favour of Dave you are seriously not paying attention.

  • moonraven

    I am always paying attention when I see obvious cloning. As a professor of writing and a professional writer, it is part of my technical infrastructure to recognize plagiarism and unusual congruencies in style.

    You have covered up for Dave, instead of outing him.

    His vox populi caper was ignored by you and outed by another poster on this site.

    I may be twice your age but I am not anywhere near Alzheimers.

    If I were you, I would be doing some exercises to improve memory–and enrolling in a course in Ethical Journalism.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Let’s face it, Chris, she still wouldn’t believe you even if you flew her to Spain and physically showed her the IP addresses.

    Out of interest, MR, what are some of the aliases Dave is supposed to have been cloning himself under?

  • moonraven

    I believe you should ask Chris, as he removed my reference to two of them yesterday.

    It is easy to post using a handful of IP addresses–you just send your post to someone in another place and they post it under whatever name you choose.

    Easy, in fact, as pie.

    And I believe pie is still de rigeur in Texas.

  • Dr Dreadful

    I believe you should ask Chris, as he removed my reference to two of them yesterday.

    Vox Populi we know about. Ancient history, except to obsessive electronic archaeologists like yourself.

    As to the other one, if you’re referring to “Franco” – nah. Way more highly-strung and über-Rechts than our Dave.

    But while we’re on the subject of multiple aliases, wasn’t there a certain “MBD” whose sudden and mysterious disappearance from the threads coincided with the lifting of your ban…?

  • moonraven

    I believe Chris is the person indicated to answer your question about a poster named MBD. I am afraid that I cannot do so.

    If MDB is female, however, I assume that she is one more casually of the abuse and degradation of women on this site. Other than that, I cannot speculate. If you, however, are accusing me of being MDB, I think you had better show us some proof. Or you had better get chris to do so.

    [Edited]

  • moonraven

    And, just to clarify–I was not banned, nor was my ban “lifted”.

    Check it out.

  • Dr Dreadful

    I’m aware of what happened, MR.

    Those aliases, please. Apart from “Vox Populi” and “Franco”.

  • moonraven

    Those aren’t enough?

    So far as I am concerned, ONE alias should be grounds for losing his editor post–unpaid though it is–and being booted off the site.

    You clearly have different standards, so I fail to see why you are trying to engage me on this issue.

  • Clavos

    Nalle is NOT Franco (or vice versa).

  • Dr Dreadful

    But you accused him of using multiple aliases. Clearly Franco is not (thank you, Clav) Dave, so I was hoping you could enlighten me as to what the other ones are.

    Failing that, I have no alternative but to view your claim as so much hot air.

  • Clavos

    You’re much too polite, Doc.

  • Dr Dreadful

    You should have seen the comment I thought better of.

  • Dr Dreadful

    That was interesting: moonraven’s lengthy comment that I just testily responded to disappeared while I was writing it, and now mine makes no sense.

    Chris, whazzup?

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    Just cleaning out the crap. My advice is not to get sucked into talking trash with people lest you get caught up in the cleaning too.

    As I’ve said before, we are NOT debating Dave’s commenting cockup any longer. It is utterly pointless to keep debating it like some deranged conspiracy theory.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Good advice, Chris, but I’m actually curious. I only stumbled upon BC in February or March of this year (I think), and missed the fetid origins of MR’s wrath. I’d like to see for myself, whereas our feathered friend would, it seems, prefer that I just take her word for it.

  • Clavos

    Check out Nalle’s article and thread on Chavez, published in September. That’s her first “appearance.” I later also published a couple of articles on Chavez and Evo Morales of Bolivia, on which she also ranted.

    You can find links to ‘em all on our BC writer’s pages.

    The rest, as they say, is history.

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    Doc, maybe as a Brit you’d understand better than some how odd I find Dave’s obsessive worrying about what he consider’s America’s “left” wing. moonraven is on the left wing and considers this to be a right wing site.

    The thing they share in common is an unshakeable belief in the correctness of their own opinions and that everybody else is wrong. The fact that they are both wrong only adds to the “through the looking glass” nature of this tired and misconceived “debate”.

    Dave has other names that he uses on other sites and once appeared to post under here in support of himself. moonraven got it into her head that he was systematically posting under multiple identities and can’t seem to get past the notion. I am not allowing her to keep going over stale old ground repeatedly and pointlessly, which gets her goat.

    She also thinks I’m protecting him which, of course, I’m not. It only takes a brief scan of the site to discern that there is little in political terms that Dave and I have in common, although on some societal issues, such as religion, we actually agree and on others, like gun control, we don’t.

    It’s true that she did get a fairly hostile reception when she first turned up on the site and maybe I should have been quicker to defend her but, as you may have noticed, she does have a somewhat immodest style.

    The irony is that there is a strong body of editorial opinion that would like to see moonraven banned from the site and I am protecting her from that whilst simultaneously deleting her comments that go beyond what we consider acceptable here. She appears not to appreciate the former whilst being enraged by the latter.

    Are you bored yet? I know I am. So, this is going to be the absolute end of the matter and I’m not going to indulge any more pointless debate on these non-issues. Fascist git, huh? ;-)

  • Clavos

    “t’s true that she did get a fairly hostile reception when she first turned up on the site and maybe I should have been quicker to defend her but, as you may have noticed, she does have a somewhat immodest style.”

    She reaped what she sowed, Chris.

    In the year + that I’ve been on this site, no one has generated as much enmity as she.

    No one.

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    Except Dave of course! And Ruvy!! And me!!!

  • REMF

    Re #61;
    How’s the stalking going, Clavvy?

  • Clavos

    I wouldn’t know, kid, I was responding to Doc’s question.

    Still don’t know what a non sequitur is, eh?

    Keep plugging; you’ll get it someday.

    Maybe.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    #63, #64:

    I’ve generated a fair bit of enmity… well, from Archie at least. But his buttons are so easy to press! They’re big and red and shiny and say “press me” in big letters!

    Ooohhh-kaaay. I went and read Dave’s old “Crazy Hugo” article and the subsequent thread… or some of it. By about comment #210 I was crying for my mother.

    I can see both sides. MR aka Marthe did, at first, attempt to engage the denizens of BC Politics in a reasoned debate and was the only informed voice speaking on Chavez’s side. But almost immediately there were some assholeic reactions, particularly from the specimen known as JustOneManBrainCell, and Brian aka Guppusmaximus wasn’t much better.

    The rest: well, Dave was his usual somewhat supercilous self, troll was… well, troll, and Clavos was pretty much of one mind with Dave, albeit without the condescension. And I’m still inclined to think that the polite, humble Franco who commented on that thread is not the same Franco as the hectoring commenter who’s paid a few recent visits to BC.

    So there was some gratuitous nastiness, but quite why MR now identifies Mr Nalle as Beelzebub is hard to say. Her own behavior hasn’t changed much either. Particularly egregious was her blatantly ignoring (and later denying the existence of) Dave’s citations supporting his charges re the Chavez government. She displays a flagrant disregard for civility, logic and the rules of debate, most notably her refusal to accept the burden of proof for some of her more dramatic claims (e.g. Cheney masterminded 9/11). Her critical thinking teacher must be spinning in his/her grave.

    That said, I must confess that I do enjoy some of her insults, when they’re directed where deserved (a lot of them most emphatically aren’t). She adds a sulphurous flavor without which the Politics section would be – shall we say? – a little too Nalleish.

    ;-)

    Phew!

  • troll

    after eating Clavos’ cat’s liver laced with all that residual acid I realized that we are all one…multiple facets (clones if you like) of the unitary Nalle ego

    …but then I may have taken too much

    be clear in differentiating fact from opinion and you’ll have little trouble with moonraven the anti-sophist sophist and master troll – it also helps to agree with everything that she says

  • moonraven

    Actually, it does NOT help to agree with what I say.

    When one of the ignorant redneck swine on this site agrees with what I say I have to examine my conscience and consider that what I said may have been bullshit.

    Doc, I teach Critical Thinking. Do you?

    You also seem to miss the point that “moonraven” is what we call in spanish a “personaje”–which doesn’t exactly translate to “persona” in english usage, but it may clear up some of the literal thinking you are so determined to maintain.

    You may want to CHECK Dave’s “citations” that you mentioned–you will see that in EVERY SINGLE CASE he either cited someone’s OPINION or he cited an article which directly contradicted the claims he made.

    I remain the only poster on this site who has spent substantial time in Venezuela over the past 5 years, and has researched the situation in situ–including several meetings with Hugo Chavez himself. Of course my experience cuts no ice here in redneck Heaven–aka Blogcritics.org–but it cuts enough for universities and churches in Latin America, the Middle East and the US to PAY me to present my experience and MY opinions (ALWAYS supported by REAL informormation–not some other clown’s opinion).

    When they start paying Dave Nalle to present HIS non-experience, the cold day will have definitely arrived in hell.

    And Chris–Don’t do me any favors. I have been waiting for you assholes to ban me for months. Shit, or get off the toilet.

  • Clavos

    Don’t do it Chris, she’s too eager.

    Masochist to Sadist: “Beat me!!”

    Sadist (grinning): “NOOO.”

  • Dr Dreadful

    Doc, I teach Critical Thinking. Do you?

    No, but I know how to do it.

    And big whoop. I’ve had French teachers who couldn’t speak French.

    If what you say is true, then God help your students.

    You also seem to miss the point that “moonraven” is what we call in spanish a “personaje”–which doesn’t exactly translate to “persona” in english usage, but it may clear up some of the literal thinking you are so determined to maintain.

    Not quite sure what that painfully contorted sentence is supposed to mean. If I get you right, you’re saying that ‘moonraven’ is a fictional character – created, as per some of your prior comments, to have outrageous opinions in order to counterpoint and contrast the ‘outrageous’ views of some on this site.

    So are you claiming that the expressed opinions of Dave Nalle, Clavos, Baritone and others are not their real opinions? If so, on what basis?

    I think it would be beyond the skill of the most gifted mapmaker to depict where you’re coming from.

  • moonraven

    Only one problem, clavos.

    I am not a masochist by anyone’s stretch of febrile or feeble imagination.

  • moonraven

    Ever heard of Brer Rabbit?

    Oh please please please whatever you do don’t throw me in that briar patch, Brer Bear.

    I thought all rednecks could recite Uncle Remus stories from memory….

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    Marthe, your opinions could be really interesting if they weren’t coloured by your flawed “personaje”. It is simply unbelievable when you try to persuade us that this is just a character, rather than an integral part of your clearly crabby personality.

    Judging by your contributions to this site, if I was a student of your Critical Thinking course, I’d really hope I wasn’t paying for it. You appear to have overdone the critical part but entirely neglected to do the thinking.

    As to banning you, I doubt I’ll do that. If we do ever reach a crisis point that can’t be resolved by appropriate and judicious editing of your worst outbursts, I’ll refer you to the management.

    Personally, I think it is only fitting that your more ludicrous outpourings are preserved for all time on the internet.

    What’s her full name again, Clavos?

  • moonraven

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Thinking involves: having information and using logical analysis to arrive at conclusions.

    I have never seen either of those components from the rest of you on this site. NEVER.

    Logic, for example, does not work this way: I had a French teacher who couldn’t speak French, therefore all teachers don’t know what they are talking about.

    Logic also doesn’t in any way indicate ANYTHING about the opinions of Nalle and Co.

    As to “moonraven” being a fictional character–of course she is! She was created specifically in reaction to the abusive and malignant misogynist treatment received by her creator when said creator posted under her own name. “Moonraven” is a STYLE of presentation in a virtual space–where “the medium is the message”.

    As usual, you assholes have as your response and argument only “Your mama wears combat boots”.

    Really elementary school, my dear Watson.

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    But if moonraven was created in response to your treatment here, why is the same personality also posting on other sites? And has been doing so for longer than you’ve been on here?

    Another convenient bending of the truth by Marthe.

  • Clavos

    Her full name, Chris, is posted in this thread, in comment #284.

    I don’t want to post it in this thread, lest I be falsely accused, once again, of having revealed it in the first place.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Logic, for example, does not work this way: I had a French teacher who couldn’t speak French, therefore all teachers don’t know what they are talking about.

    And it does not work this way either: I teach critical thinking, therefore I think critically.

  • Clavos

    LOL…

  • moonraven

    The point, doc, is that YOU do not think critically. That is no particular oddity, since on this site except for an occasional glimmer by troll and zedd, critical thinking is scarcer that Speedy Gonzalez’ ethics.

    Chris,

    The only site on which I regularly post using the nombre de guerra of “moonraven”, is commondreams.org.

    That particular site has only had a comments section available for a few months–since I began posting on blogcritics under the name “moonraven” last December, your claim in untrue.

    I use that name on commondreams when it is necessary to bring the unconscious into consciousness (even progressives can be dumb and ignorant as hell) or in response to the paid rightwing shills who post on that site whenever there is a piece about Venezuela.

    In short, for the same purpose as on this site.

    Not, of course, that it is any of your fucking business.

  • Dr Dreadful

    The point, doc, is that YOU do not think critically.

    …Which accusation is in itself an illustration of your lack of critical thinking. We were not talking about my thinking skills.

    You are arguing tu quoque – a classic fallacy.

  • moonraven

    No, I am not arguing anything, in fact. I am just calling you the unthinking swine that you are. Which, given the information you have presented about yourself on this site that indicates thinking is not something you habitually do, is at the furthest stretch, an “ad hominem” comment.

    I am the one asking, in the words of the infamous former president of Mexico, Vicente Fox: “¿Y yo, por qué?”

    You are, after all, the one who began all this by making accusations against ME–with of course zero PROOF.

    Yet, oddly, you expect to see PROOF of MY–and OTHERS’–contention that Cheney orchestrated 9/11–despite the fact that he is the ONLY person who had motive, opportunity, means–and whose personal balance sheet benefited ENORMOUSLY from its aftermath.

    You have some fucking nerve.

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    Marthe Raymond – so the moonraven that has made over 3,000 comments going back to 2004 on this site isn’t you? If not, it must be a fellow traveller or a moonraven impersonator. You should sue for copyright infringement!

  • moonraven

    Chris wrote:

    “why is the same personality also posting on other sites? And has been doing so for longer than you’ve been on here?

    From the site mentioned by Chris, a comment posted 5 days ago:

    Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:13 am Post subject: Re: hahahahahah

    ——————————————————————————–

    geaaronson wrote:
    A flaming bomb throwing Spartacus league radical. No, seriously couldn´t find it so emailed moonraven for it.

    If you hear from moonraven, let us know, will you? She hasn’t put in an appearance here for at least two years, and I , for one, am curious to know what she’s been up to.

    In your comment, Chris, you used the term POSTING.

    POSTING is present continuous tense–it does not refer to an action completed more than 2 years ago.

    When teaching english I always tell students the following:

    It’s necessary to learn the tenses of verbs. If no one can tell from what you say whether what you refer to is happening right now, happening two months ago, or is going to happen next week, you have not communicated.

    Communication is the primary goal of language.

    You did not communicate.

    I indicated that “moonraven” was created as a “character” to be used in political commentary on THIS site as a response to the abuse and misogyny I received posting under the name Marthe Raymond.

    That is true.

    What is also true, among other things, is that moonraven is also my Native American name. I use that name in a number of different contexts–none of which has anything to do with blogcritics.org.

    Does that make moonraven on this site NOT a character?

    The sueing that may take place in regard to this issue will NOT be one of copyright infringement.

    A policy of sexual harrassment on a commentary site is a different legal issue altogether.

  • moonraven

    It occurs to me that without using the hand gesture over my shoulder to indicate past tense like I do when explaining the need to learn verb tenses, that someone as obtuse as the comments editor–or a host of others–may assume that I also am unfamiliar with tenses–so to clarify, the written sequence would be:

    what is happening right now, what WAS happening two months ago, or what is going to happen next week….

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    So in plain English that means yes it is you and no you didn’t invent the character in response to your experiences here.

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    Marthe Raymond is moonraven, a twisted old cynic that makes words mean whatever she wants then to but doesn’t believe in moral relativism, only semantic relativism.

    You should stick to poetry and leave the critical thinking to those who have a little more integrity.
    Talking with you is worse, far worse than talking with the adherents of the three strands of the one god cult!

  • moonraven

    Wrong.

    I invented the CHARACTER–with a very specific style–in response to the sanctioned policy of abuse and misogyny on THIS site.

    The moonraven who posts here, for example, is a very different CHARACTER from the moonraven who writes poetry under that name.

    The moonraven who posts here is far left, brutally agressive, and takes no prisoners–only scalps.

    If the CHARACTER name in question were John Dos Pasos–the John Dos Pasos on this site might be a far right winger Texas trailer trash cut from the mold of Nalle or even of Speedy Gonzales, yet might write novels from a far left perspective, organize unions, run for public office as a democrat, run a small consulting operation in business systems, etc etc etc.

    And all of those CHARACTERS may have been created by the same person: John Doe.

    This is my last attempt to explain something very simple to someone who apparently is even simpler.

    As I said before, it is none of your fucking business what I do, say, believe or think.

    This is virtual space, dummy–what you see is what you get. You cannot ask for more. And you can’t bully someone into giving you more.

    For all I know, the other posters on this thread are all characters created by Eric Olsen in order to rip off the folks who advertise on this site who are paying him based on traffic to the site.

    Anything is possible.

  • moonraven

    Chris,

    You are not TALKING with me.

    This is virtual space.

    It just happens to be a space where you routinely refer to me in a misogynist and AGEIST form.

    And you are RESPONSIBLE for the site.

    Your behavior can compromise this site.

    My behavior can not.

    I will write poetry, or I will think critically or non-critically or I will do anything I happen to feel like doing–and I need no advice from you in regard to anything I do, did, contemplate doing–or anything else.

  • Clavos

    “I invented the CHARACTER–with a very specific style–in response to the sanctioned policy of abuse and misogyny on THIS site.”

    “In response,” my ass.

    You came on here from the git-go in full-on cast iron bitch mode as Marthe Raymond; and, except for the moniker, you haven’t changed one iota since.

    You lie constantly and gratuitously insult all and sundry. Your manners are those of a guttersnipe.

    You have contributed nothing substantive or worthwhile in the year you’ve posted on BC, but you HAVE provided us all with a lot of laughs at your asinine and inane keyboard antics.

    Not bad for an old crow.

  • moonraven

    And yet another ageist and misogynist attack against me from clavos.

    Supported, of course, by blogcritics lower management in the form of the comments editor/janitor.

    Not to mention that the post makes absolutely NO SENSE….

    That’s the norm from clavos–Senseless Swamp Rat is the CHARACTER he plays on this site.

    Maybe it’s Carl Hiassen who should be sueing for copyright infringement…?

  • Clavos

    Maybe I AM Carl….

  • moonraven

    No, you aren’t Carl Hiassen.

    He doesn’t need to play one of his redneck slimebags on blogcritics.

    He puts them in best-selling novels instead–reaches a much wider audience that way and also is paid for doing so.

    The only thing you APPARENTLY have in common with Carl is a residence in South Florida.

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    Marthe Raymond is moonraven, a person so deeply subjective that they are incapable of telling the truth anymore.

    Marthe Raymond is the perpetual victim moonraven, who is always being persecuted but nobly fights back against all injustice.

    It would be amusing if it weren’t so inutterably tragic.

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    We’re all characters.

    Matthew T. “Matt” Sussman is a registered nurse by day, action hero by night, sports editor by evening, and always up by 11:30 a.m. The role will be played by Josh Hartnett, featuring Zooey Deschanel as the main love interest.

  • Clavos

    I thought her name was Emily Deschanel???

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    I’m going to ignore the idiocy that started (as always) when MR joined the discussion and instead go back to this.


    Dave, you REALLY need to get over this persistent delusion that you are objective and can actually be a fair witness. You are just as value and judgement laden as the rest of us

    What you don’t seem to grasp is that my values and judgments are the product of a long history of thinking about the world rationally, and they reflect an ideology which is rational, though perhaps not entirely objective.

    and your repeated claims to be able to debate based solely on the facts is as tedious as it is illusory.

    Not exactly my position. When I have a position I generally have facts to back it up. They may not be the only facts and my conclusions drawn from them may not be the only conclusions they can produce. But the point is that I at least HAVE facts to support my positions. And if the facts blatantly contradicted my assumptions then I would have the honesty to reconsider as has been demonstrated on this site before.

    Your excessively repeated observation of the “left” being dogmatic and incapable of debate is as shallow as it is inaccurate.

    It’s a generalization based on specific examples which have surfaced very clearly on BC recently, like the Chuck Adkins situation. As a generalization it’s obviously not universally applicable. Sure, there are people on the right who are just as dogmatic and closed-minded and there are people on the left who have relatively open minds. All of that being true, I still see a clear trend on the left in America to want to silence debate and dictate their version of the truth to others, and even you have to admit we’ve seen some glaring examples of it right here on BC.

    Mate, it’s okay to be subjective, nobody expects you to be otherwise. Being aware of your biases or pejudices is a prerequisite to being able to see past them…

    I’m fully aware of my prejudices, but they’re not irrational prejudices and they’re ones which I have yet to see anyone challenge effectively.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Emily and Zoey Deschanel are sisters, both actresses.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    And yet another ageist and misogynist attack against me from clavos.

    Give me a break. While there is a tiny bit of agism in Clavos’ comment, not one word he said was in any way gender specific. You remain your own worst enemy, fighting the phantom enemies who exist mostly in your own head.

    Dave

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    Dave, that’s a really persistent delusion you have going on there. Of course you’re a perfectly rational being that is as fair minded and wise as Solomon. All hail Nalle the wise and objective!

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    NalleWorld:-

    In #97 “I’m going to ignore the idiocy that started (as always) when MR joined the discussion”

    Four minutes later, in #99 “And yet another ageist and misogynist attack against me from clavos.

    Give me a break. While there is a tiny bit of agism in Clavos’ comment, not one word he said was in any way gender specific. You remain your own worst enemy, fighting the phantom enemies who exist mostly in your own head.

    Dave”

    How rational and well thought out of you. Well done! ;-)

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    He never did specify how long he was going to ignore it.

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    Hey, Matt, c’mon, admit it, you were a lawyer in a previous life!

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I just couldn’t resist noting all this. Eight days ago, Liam Bailey had this pathetic screed published, an article filled with delusions and lies.

    What has happened since?

    Well, over 100 coments have accumulated here. But of them, over 55 have had to do, in one way or another with Marthe Raymond, and her on-screen persona, moonraven.

    A lot of them have made riotous reading.

    But that is not where the fun is.

    No.

    Th fun is to be found in the court of public opinion and how it has judged the young Mr. Bailey’s effort. The Netscape approval rating shows 182 people voting on this piece. Of them 14 have approved of this article. The remaining 168 have trashed it, shown by the “thumbs down” symbol. That is a ratio of 11 to one. That ratio speaks volumes.

    Refutations, to the degree that they are required, along with a real picture of events here, can be found at this article, where I will be found as well.

    Comments are welcome…

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    So, if I understand you, “fun” is celebrating how many people, presumably mostly in the West, disagree with one minority view, whereas people who disagree with your unique “real” view just don’t understand. Is that it?

  • troll

    Ruvy – here’s a Netscape page on this article where is says that it has received mostly positive ratings – 2 ‘sinks’ out of 14 votes…..what’s up with that

    what’s the url for the Netscape ‘vote’ that you reference – ?

  • REMF

    I’ll take my cookie now, troll.

  • Dr Dreadful

    …I personally can think of at least a hundred more interesting topics to think about….NOW.

    ‘Bye.

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    I think Ruvy should have his eyes tested!

    Troll you are right, I have received 14 positive votes for this article on Netscape. Ruvy looked at it in the section directly below my article here, where it shows 14 positive votes, then 168 beside a speech bubble, because 168 people have commented on the article on Netscape. Ruvy you are the first to jump on my mistakes, get your eyes checked pal.

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    I just couldn’t resist noting all this: Ruvy had to come and link his article from mine… Comments are welcome ha ha ha.

    Says a lot that does…

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL-rX7DJQLM Cindy D

    Arabs and Israelis work to bridge divide – 28 Aug 07

    I think that peace will be difficult until there is more sentiment similar to what is shown in the video at the link.