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Palestine Divided: Israel’s Dream

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We all know what “divide and conquer” is all about.  It is a strategy Israel has deployed over the last couple of decades, if not to exactly conquer, but to effectively pacify the people they conquered in 1967–allowing them to continue pursuing their strategic, expansionist and cultural interests.   But the responsibility must also be divided, because if the Palestinians' so-called government forgot about power and control of their non-state and had realized that their cause is so fragile that only a united front has any chance of success, then Israel's tactics of exacerbating rivalries would never have gotten off the ground.

Not only did it did get off the ground; it has proved to be an exceptionally successful tactic for ensuring Israel's continued control, not only of the Palestinian territory and its sham Authority, but over the day-to-day life of every Palestinian.

Israel began to grow scared and pondered a new strategy when the Palestine Liberation Organization and its movement seemed to be gaining too much support among Palestinians and as a movement was getting too powerful. A new strategy was needed. A new group was emerging, a religious extremist group called Hamas. From slow beginnings Hamas is now extremely well armed and perhaps the most powerful Palestinian militant group, certainly the most powerful in Gaza.

Hamas' power grew with Israeli support, weapons and funds-the same kind of support they are now giving to Fatah. When the Islamic movement began to emerge in the late 1970's Israeli leaders sought to strengthen the movement. Believing that if the Palestinians were immersed in their religion they would pose less of a problem, and at any rate, their support for one group would automatically exacerbate the rift ceding from the Palestine Liberation organization fear of holding onto their control. Israeli leaders believed two groups, rivalling each other and working from a different mandate, would be a whole easier monster to control.

Also, many people believe former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon did not want peace. Sharon saw bolstering Hamas as a good way of ensuring the violence would continue and talks would be doomed to failure.

It is not clear when this support for Hamas ended, The arrest in 1989 of the main benefactor of their supporting policy, Sheikh Deir Yassin, suggests around that time, but there has been too much political turmoil and cross manipulation to really be sure. When Hamas won democratic elections early last year, things really changed for Israel. Hamas' turn towards democracy suggested they were becoming more moderate, and with the widespread support of the Palestinian people, Israel feared they may be forced to find an agreement with a moderate but still credible Hamas.

Now, Hamas was too big for its boots and Israel began a policy of weakening the monster they had created and strengthening the PLO's now controlling faction, Fatah, against the now powerful Hamas. They began by attempting to strip Hamas of their support base by starving the already impoverished Palestinian people with the internationally supported financial blockade.

To strengthen Fatah, Israel has done many things, from making concessions, such as releasing a fraction of the Palestinian tax revenues held by Israel under the blockade and promising to make other concessions, like removing check-points to make life easier for Palestinians. But the worst leg of the policy has been the massive campaign by Israel and their U.S. backers of arming Fatah gunmen. Even after Fatah and Hamas agreed the Palestinian National Unity government, still the arms continued to flow. Still Hamas' anger continued to grow at Israel's attempts to provide Fatah with the means to defeat them. Abbas' lack of control over his armed factions, as seen in recent news of Fatah gunmen ruining a new exam system Abbas tried to implement-thus prevented the Hamas-Abbas security plan being implemented, particularly in Gaza; and fighting between the two factions, concentrated in the coastal strip, began anew.

This led to the crowning achievement of Israel's divisionary tactics. Hamas eventually routed Fatah's forces and sent them fleeing to the West Bank, where they still have a sizeable power-base, thus bringing about a completely divided Palestinian cause: Fatah ruling the West bank, if only on paper, and Hamas controlling Gaza. There were fears that Hamas would begin trying to take control of the West Bank, but they haven't materialized yet.

About Liam Bailey

  • Anony

    I suppose Israel is behind the division between the various Arab nutjob varieties in Iraq, too? What nonesense, coming from a typical worldview that first blames Israel for all the world’s ills. Israel gave them a health system, an education system, a source of employment and income, built up their infrastructure, and all your hatred allows you to do is blame the inherent tribal insanity on the only hope for civilization these animals will ever have. In Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and other Arab ‘friendlies’, they live in ‘refugee camps’, endorsed by the UN, after 50 years. Where else in the world do populations that have been dislocated stayed in a cage for so long? You won’t be helping the Palestinians until you look at the truth and find the source of their problems. Stop blaming Israel, you’re not doing the Palestinians any good. Cure your hatred as a first step.

  • Borat

    Blame the Jew!

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    To the two commenters:

    Neither of you can argue with any of the facts in the article. If I was to start up a politically active faction, up in arms at the government or some such, and the government starting arming a rival faction that had been around longer of course it would excacerbate the rift between my faction and the other. Israel supported Hamas with money, arms and even trained fighters, now they are doing the same with Fatah. Seeing as gunmen and members of both these groups have been regularly attacking Israel since they were formed, you tell me why Israel would support them if not to maintain the chaos and excacerbate internal violence?

    Furthermore, it is unfair to say blame the jew et al, when in the article I clearly say the blame is as much, if not more on the Palestinians for failing to see how they are playing right into Israel’s hands. And yes I do think it would help the Palestinians to realize this.

  • http://americannepali.blogspot.com bhumika

    borat i have to disagree..both sides have made mistakes. blaming just one would increase suspicion and hatred.

    now israel is considering its Gaza strategy.

    bhumika
    middle east,the newsroom

  • http://parodieslost.typepad.com Mark Schannon

    Liam, you offer no facts, just claims that are, frankly, hard to swallow. Israel supporting and funding Hamas; Hamas accepting a two-state solution? How about some links to back up these claims?

    I assume Borat was being sarcastic, but bhumika is right that both sides have made mistakes. In fact, the entire Middle East has been one big mistake. To blame Israel alone while forgotting that Egypt & Jordan could have created a Palestinian state anytime between 1958 & 67, to ignore the fact that it’s the Arabs who have kept the Palestinians in camps, that Jordan has brutilized Palestinians for years…is simply disingenuous. Of course, Israel has shown all the tact and subtly of a cement mixer, but this latest conspiracy theory seems a bit far fetched.

    Proof, sir. Proof.

    Remember,

    In Jameson Veritas

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Mark, Liam, and everybody else commenting on this.

    I am the one who told everybody over a year ago that the Israelis had built up Hamas to weaken el-fataH. And I was just citing old news reports. But Liam would be wise to show his work anyway – either citing me as a source, or some old forgotten news article.

    I’m also the one who told everybody why the Israelis were so interested in cutting deals with el-fataH. The reason was to weaken a native grown Arab leadership AND to make money off of the “Palestine” that was to come about from the Oslo Accords. You might all want to check comments #1 & #3 of Part III – In The Shadow of the Six Day War. Liam is just a babe in the woods when investigating this stuff. I get past all the “Palestinian” bullshit and deal with the big boys.

    The reason that the Israeli government is pissed off as all hell at Hamas is 1) that they are too big for their britches – here Liam is right – and 2) the real important reason, there are no money-making deals between the criminal gang that is the Israeli government and the criminal gang that is el-fataH.

    Olmert is not a right winger or a left winger. He is a money winger and flies in for the cash, just like any common pigeon. And Israelis of all stripes are sick of the son of bitch stealing everybody blind and getting away with it. They all want him gone – even the intellectuals at Haaretz, who are now grinding their teeth in the shards of shattered illusions.

    I’m not going to go further than this. I have my own analysis and take on all that is occurring, and will publish my own piece on it, G-d willing. Let’s just say that Liam, you do not have a clue here. It’s time for Lestrade to consult Mr. Holmes on the matter, dear boy.

  • moonraven

    I am not reading any more pieces on Palestine until they re-instate that VERY attractive fat guy with all the kids as Prime Minister.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “Egypt & Jordan could have created a Palestinian state anytime between 1958 & 67″

    Or anytime between 1948 and yesterday…

  • Jones

    The writer forgut to blame us for the climate crisis, the war in darfur and the tsunami in Thailand
    The palastinian does not want live in peace, this is a fact. most of them if not all of them want the destruction of all israel, and either you like it or not – WE WONT LET THIS HAPPEN!

  • http://parodieslost.typepad.com Mark Schannon

    Ruvy, oy, you said that??? I know Bush and company are dumber than a pile of dirt, but are the Israelis that stupid? I’m aghast, I’m shocked, I’m mortified. And I don’t have the brain power left to follow your link to your explanations…but it’s a sad day in Bedrock. And that’s the truth.

    You should move back here. Since we’ll never sell this house, we’ve got plenty of room, and regardless of how stupid American politicos are, at least it’s safer. And I’ve got great wine!

    In Jameson Veritas

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Mark,

    Let me remind you of a post I sent you – a warning from Dr. David Golander in 1989 from m’kubalim. He stated (on their behalf) that Jews who insisted ion remaining in exile would die at the Hand of G-d…

    Aside from not worrying about all the shiksas my sons can impregnate in America, all the drugs they can be influenced to use, all the liquor they can be pressured into drinking, and all the other crappy habits in America that are so hard to fight because the culture that shoves it down your throat, I kind of like living. The mere fact that I live here makes me feel safer, if not for me personally (my health is not so hot either), than for my sons and my wife…

    Ball is in your court, buddy…

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    all this aside, Ruvy..i’m waiting for your take on Shimon Perez being back in office…

    be safe

    Excelsior?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Gonzo,

    It is Peres, not Perez. Peres means vulture in Hebrew. The man has lived up to his name and continues to. Article is in progress…

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    i stand corrected on the spelling…and look forward to the Article…

    dreck..guess i should write something soon…

    heh

    Excelsior?

  • Awareness

    I’m just starting to learn more about the problems in Israel, W. Bank, Gaza, and the greater Middle East.

    With comments like, “What nonesense, coming from a typical worldview that first blames Israel for all the world’s ills,” “…all your hatred allows you to do is blame the inherent tribal insanity on the only hope for civilization these animals will ever have,” and “Let’s just say that Liam, you do not have a clue here. It’s time for Lestrade to consult Mr. Holmes on the matter, dear boy,” it seems like many are incapable of looking at ourselves or discussing things without belitting everyone. Yet, here it goes…

    Like L. Bailey said, “the responsibility must…be divided.” But I think it’s more important to look at the things we in the U.S. support more than the crimes of the Palestinians, which are real. We should hold ourselves to equal or higher standards since we (and Israel) have more means of violence.

    That being said, why can’t the U.S. and Israel accept the plan that’s been on the table since 1971? Why shouldn’t Israel return to pre-1967 borders? Shouldn’t Israel not violate dozens of Security Council Resolutions and why won’t they follow UN Resolution 242? Once again, I’m no expert, but maybe people from this blog can post some important ideas. Just a reminder: I’m not blaming “Israel for all the world’s ill,” and I have no “hatred” of Israel, yet I do not think the Palestinians are “animals” any more than we are.

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    here is the link where I got my info from, an incredibly authoratative source: LaRouche

    Ruvy, I do not have a clue there, you just dont have a clue, period. Your insanity grows hand in hand with your senility. All I am thankfull for is that your misery will probably be over soon, meanwhile I’ll still be learning, still writing and still growing. You have closed your feeble mind off to everything barring your own mind-consuming biases.

    Mark Schannon made an ass of himself, searching Hamas Israel would have saved his embarrasment, first link that comes up is an excellent source of Israels support of Hamas.

    To all the people saying I hate Israel, I dont, I dont hate Jews or Israelis. I hate Israel’s zionist government and I abhore the continuance of its brutal and increasingly opressive occupation.

    If Israel wanted peace the answer is simple, end the occupation. Israel is constantly in fear about security issues because how can you secure a border that doesn’t exist. Pull back to the pre-1967 borders, and make it officially Israel’s border. Then they can build as high a wall as they like around it. And concentrate on securing their borders.

    The only problem is Isreal’s government doesn’t want the land inside the poxy 67 borders, it wants it all, at least Sharon was man enough to admit his extreme (insane) right wing desires. The rest just feel it but don’t voice it. They know they are stronger than the Palestinians so why shouldn’t they just continue to force the Palestinians to demonize themselves in the eyes of the world allowing Israel’s slow but continuous land-grabbing ethnic-cleansing operation to continue?

    The international community needs to stand up before it is too late. Thank fully the tide is changing…

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Liam,

    The difference between you and I is that I have to live with what I suggest. You pontificate from your roost in northern England. When I pontificate upon how Geordies and Scotsmen should conduct their affairs, you can complain.

    I have a hell of lot better memory than you and a much longer one – fifty six years gives you a lot longer view than twenty three or twenty four.

    And having moved from one culture to another, and having had to learn another language at age fifty, gives you a far broader perspective of the planet. If you want to call this senility, Liam, I truly feel sorry for you.

    As for your source, while I would normally sniff at anything Lyndon Larouche put out, this seems to have legitimate data. My point was that you ought to have shown the source.

    Now, young man, as to Israelis wanting ALL of the Land of Israel. The borders we follow for a basic claim to this Land are found in the Bible towards the end of the Book of Numbers. Put simply, they run from south of Be’er Sheva to Sidon in the Lebanon mountains, and include southwestern Syria and all the land from the coast to the Jordan River. That, plus the land that King Solomon conquered in the Negev, working mines in Timna, and reaching down towards what is now Eilat, forms the claim to the Land. That is ALL of the Land, and that forms the claim. Any intelligent rabbi will tell you this.

    The first problem with young snots like you is that you have no perspective on history and no respect at all for the desire of a people to inhabit its ancestral lands. Perhaps that is because no damned Arab or finger wagging European is telling you that you have to withdraw to this river and that highway because you have no right to the country that you have lived in and cared about and worked for generations.

    The second problem with young snots like you is for all of your internet knowledge, you have no concept of what ten miles means in terms of walking – or in terms of fighting for it. This, on top of total ignorance of the land you talk about, makes everything you say suspect – including your logic.

    Your approach is terribly conventional. The Israeli government, afraid to actively root out terrorists by expelling them from the country altogether because of fear of what Her Majesty’s Government might say, has elected to build a security barrier. Frankly, it is far cheaper, both in terms of blood and money, to kick the hostile Arabs out altogether, kill terrorists on sight, execute those in our jails so that other terror groups have no incentive to kidnap Israelis. But fear of goyim (like you) – which is what a Jewish state was supposed to end – has instead cost us much money and pain erecting a wall across our own land, walling ourselves in as though we were the inmates and our enemies could walk free. If you want to complain about an occupation wall, bitch to your own government in London. It is assholes and craven cowards there that have effectively forced the cowards and thieves here to build one.

    As for our claim to this country, Liam, it is very simple. We Jews give a damn about Israel. We have built it from the savage wilderness that the Arabs allowed it to decay into. When Jews returned to rebuild near the sites of Tel Shilo, and Ma’aleh Levona, the ONLY Arabs who lived here lived in Sinjil. Now the place is packed with them. They have had work, and because of that have been able to build prosperous villages. Their prosperity has been destroyed by the thieves of the PA. They have suffered from the Oslo Accords just as we have, only in a different way.

    This propaganda you and the “unaware” person commenting above you about Arabs having lived here for generations is just so much bullshit. The Land did not support them because they despised the Land. Without the love and care of the Jewish people, this land would yet be a malaria filled backwater filled with scorpions and mosquitoes. And it would not be able to support the ten million people it does now.

    That is the reason it is ours, and will remain ours.

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    Reasoning fallacies:-

    1. You have to live somewhere to have an opinion about it.

    2. Age automatically confers wisdom.

    3. Relocating and learning new languages automatically makes one smarter.

    4. Patronising people is a good way to talk to them.

    5. Things some people wrote in a book thousands of years ago are more insightful than things we’ve learned since.

    6. Believing that criticising people for their modern views whilst taking ones own from ancient texts and then accusing them of conventional thinking actually makes sense.

    7. Believing that the Israeli government cares what the British government thinks.

    8. Comparing progress made over the last fifty years with the way things were fifty years ago is a valid observation.

    Moving on, I note that both Liam and Ruvy despise the current Israeli government. There is still hope for finding common ground guys!

    As an afterthought, Ruvy, do you ever consider how the repeated call you make for the nuking of various cities may be echoed by your Muslim counterparts in other countries? Do you understand what enabling means?

    Have you ever considered that it would be less costly, in both blood and money, to nuke one Israeli city, namely Jerusalem, than the six or so that you would like to see destroyed? It’s not something I would like to see, no more than I would like to see your vision come true.

    Please feel free to vent more bile rather than actually conversing. I know that is difficult for you…

  • troll

    but why stop there…how about Mecca – Rome – Istanbul – Salt Lake

    if people can’t direct the irrational forces of religion to good ends then the Books (and all of God’s sycophants) have outlived their usefulness

    500 Million or Bust – !

  • Awareness

    Ruvy,

    I’ll keep to the topics and ignore the personal insults (although you are quite witty by switching “Awareness” to “unaware”; as for the “bullshit,” we’ll see what suffices as fact and opinion by looking at the arguments/sources instead of the tirades).

    “The difference between you and I is that I have to live with what I suggest.”

    I agree with you when you say that someone living in Israel has a much better view of the reality of Israeli citizens than someone like me (sitting in Illinois).The other side of that is that your country wouldn’t exist five seconds without people like me and our tax dollars, diplomatic support, and military support. I believe this gives us some say-so in the matter, since your country received $2.46 billion dollars in 2006; once again, from taxpayers like me and has received $80 to $90 billion since 1949, not to mention political/diplomatic support from U.S. leaders, I would say U.S. citizen voices matter. That’s probably more appalling when direct U.S. aid for each Israeli citizen in 2001 was over $500, yet our direct U.S. aid for each Ethiopian citizen in 2001 was about $0.45. The divide has, I’m sure, become worse.

    “The borders we follow for a basic claim to this Land are found in the Bible…”

    As far as using the Bible as a source to prove how much land is included in Israel, I think this is ridiculous. You say one “ought to have shown a source,” and I agree with you, but the problem is that this source hardly represents anything remotely legal. I can’t imagine states trying to use the Bible, the Qur’an, or a copy of the Torah to settle national/international disputes. I’m sure Mormons would love to use the Book of Mormon to get what they want, but this won’t work.
    PART 1

  • Awareness

    PART 2
    I would imagine that many “Arab(s)” feel just like you when you say one has “no right to the country that you have lived in and cared about and worked for generations.” We can look at many parts of Israel that come from Palestinian land. I won’t go into it, but I can for anyone that would like (of course I can give examples IF we don’t include religious texts as proof of land ownership).

    Even if it was true that Israel has a “basic claim to this Land,” everyone can’t ignore the Palestinian population that was there and are currently there. Yes, both sides did horrible things, but you never gave an answer to the basic questions I asked:
    “…why can’t the U.S. and Israel accept the plan that’s been on the table since 1971? Why shouldn’t Israel return to pre-1967 borders? Shouldn’t Israel not violate dozens of Security Council Resolutions and why won’t they follow UN Resolution 242?”

    You said Israel should “root out terrorists by expelling them from the country,” “kill terrorists on sight,” “execute those” held in jail so it will deter terror, and you said the wall has allowed your “enemies” to “walk free.”

    It’s obvious that terrorism is being done by, and to, both Israelis and Palestinians. The innocents usually pay the price when violent people wage war. As I’m sure you know, since September 29, 2000 to June 30, 2007, 704 Israelis have been killed by Palestinians in the Occupied Territories and in Israel, while approximately 3000 Palestinian civilians were killed by Israeli security forces in the Occupied Territories and Israel. What good would it do for Israel (and Palestinians- if it’s OK for Israel to do it) to “kill terrorists on sight”? Should both Israel and Palestine do more targeted killings on those guilty of terrorism? Do you really think this is a policy to solve your problems, or will it exacerbate them?

  • Awareness

    PART 3
    Also, I don’t think Israel should “execute those” held in jail. No one would say it’s right to execute Gilad Shalit anymore than it would be to execute the thousands of people held in Israeli jails without being charged for a crime.

    The wall has hardly made it easier for Palestinians (I’m assuming your definition of “enemies” is any “Arab” or Palestinian). It has taken land away from people, made life harder for many, and probably has caused many Palestinians to dislike Israel even more (Human Rights Watch, Israel’s “Separation Barrier” in the Occupied Territories: Human rights and international humanitarian law consequences-February 2004; B’Tselem, Behind the Barrier: Human rights violations as a result of Israel’s separation barrier-2003; Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory-July 2004).

    You said, “This propaganda you and the ‘unaware’ person commenting above you about Arabs having lived here for generations is just so much bullshit,” yet the only proof you give to refute it is to say that “The Land did not support them because they despised the Land.” I’m sure “any intelligent rabbi” would love to hear your “scorpions and mosquitoes” rant, but it doesn’t tell us anything. And I’m not sure what question was propaganda. The only thing I can think of is the Fourth Geneva Convention to the West Bank and Gaza refutation by Meir Shamgar and Moshe Dayan. Nonetheless, an Israeli justice ministry team headed by Attorney Menachem Mazuz found that the Israeli government should consider applying the Fourth Geneva Convention the West Bank (and Gaza) Maybe you can write what is “propaganda.”

  • Anthony Grande

    No, Israel’s dream is Israel…a land where they cannot be persecuted or victims of genocide. They just wish Palestine would leave them the fuck alone.

    AG

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I won’t bother wishing you a good week, Chris. The good wishes seem wasted on militant atheists like you.

    I’ll answer some of your comments – simply because they indicate your inability to understand plain English.

    Age does not automatically confer wisdom. You are a perfect example of this. But I never claimed greater wisdom. Age does confer a longer view on events – something that fifty-six years and considerable study of history, political science and public administration has given me.

    Having had to learn a whole new rat’s maze at age fifty has forced my mind to wake up and work a lot harder than it normally would have if I had stayed in Saint Paul managing a Burger King, allowing my mind to sink into early senescence in a secure job. And it has given me a far broader perspective on the planet than some kid in the north of England has. But I never said anything about being smarter. One can hope, however…

    You can have an opinion about anything, no matter where you live. Idiots at a kiddush table regularly spout off opinions about things they know nothing about every Sabbath. And then there are the idiots at BC doing the same. But when publishing articles that are called “journalism”, it helps to have an informed opinion on the topic at hand.

    For example, it helps to have actually seen the barrier that the Israeli government has erected tearing this land in half. It helps to actually see the Arab villages that have grown up in the last thirty-five years or so in Judea and Samaria. It also helps to actually see the Jewish villages that have grown in the last thirty-five years. It helps to see how Arabs interact with Jews in Israel. It helps to know that most Israelis have no respect for idiots like Meir Shamgar, MenaHem Mazuz, or Ehud Olmert, people cited by the less than aware fellow above. And given how Arabs generally have treated Jewish prisoners in the past (the Arab legion of Jordan excepted), it is no use citing the Geneva Convention to most Israelis. We generally don’t give a damn about anything the Useless Nothings put out. I have done all those things, and they inform my writing. The mere fact that you are not here, and that Liam is not here means that simple things like this cannot inform whatever you desire to say.

    In short, Chris, there is just no substitute for the “man on the spot.” And insofar as Blogcritics goes, I am that man on this spot. Judy Lash Balint has written some excellent articles from Jerusalem and Israel and the lot of you have ignored her entirely. She is a “woman on the spot.” But Liam isn’t and certainly you aren’t.

    Liam writes, “Ruvy, I do not have a clue there, you just don’t have a clue, period. Your insanity grows hand in hand with your senility. All I am thankful for is that your misery will probably be over soon, meanwhile I’ll still be learning, still writing and still growing. You have closed your feeble mind off to everything barring your own mind-consuming biases.”

    Patronizing writing is no way to address anyone; but it does require a response. And Liam has been given a fitting response. And now you are being one as well.

    As for dropping bombs nuclear bombs on this country, it would be cheaper for our enemies – including the United States – to drop one on us, instead of six or seven on Arab countries or Iran. But the preferred target would be Tel Aviv, not Jerusalem. And it may yet occur. And it would not be a matter of me, a mere editor from a village in the Samarian mountains, “enabling” the action, either.

    Finally, we get down to the nut of the matter, Chris.

    The fact of the matter is that since the Law was handed by G-d to my ancestors on Mount Sinai (through Moses), the rest of the savages of the world, you included, have hardly advanced a titch from your savageries practiced 3,000 years ago. Yes, humans live longer and some even benefit from better medicine; but you are still enamored of idol worship – the idols being technology and sex – you are still enamored of orgies, you are sill enamored of infanticide – the appropriate name for most abortions – and you are still engaged in persecuting the poor, spitting on the widows and elderly, putting sticks in front of the blind, and mocking the deaf. And in spite of all the talk to the contrary, you are still taking slaves. In addition to all that, you savages have managed to add genocide and mass killing (100,000,000 souls in the last Christian century) to your menu of savageries.

    Chris, look at the world around you and explain to this ignorant Jew how have you savages have advanced in 3,000 years to make OUR laws for mankind irrelevant? Why shouldn’t the G-d of Israel destroy you all for your savageries and barbarity? Why shouldn’t the Divine Hand swipe you all away and replace you all with a better model? Why should such savages be allowed in His universe?

    Something for you to ponder, Chris – even though you would rather not…

  • Awareness

    Ruvy said that one should have “respect…for the desire of a people to inhabit its ancestral lands.” I agree. That’s what many Palestinians have wished for. Israel Zangwill’s “Land Without a People” argument has long been shown to be a myth. That is, of course, contingent upon using sources other than religious texts. I’ll give a few “legitimate sources.” Zionists that had settled in Palestine, like Ahad Ha’am (1891: Truth from Palestine), Yitzak Epstein (1905: A Hidden Question), and Hillel Zeitlin (1905: The Crisis), all discuss an Arab population that had a people “dwelling there for many centuries,” saying “Palestine belongs to others, and it is totally settled.” I’m not saying there weren’t Jewish families there, but the scholarly literature, not religious, shows that there was a substantial Palestinian population. Maybe someone can refute these sources, but it seems Benny Morris is correct when he says that, from the mid-1930s, “transferring the Arabs out” was seen as the “chief means” of “assuring the stability and ‘Jewishness’ of the proposed Jewish State” (The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949).

    It’s possible that many cultures have been kicking each other off land for hundreds of years, if not thousands. I’m sure that’s been happening. Yet it seems ignorant to think that the land is only Jewish or only Palestinian.

    You said I cited “idiots” like Shamgar, Mazuz, and Olmert. Their names were brought up because I was asking what exactly you meant by “propaganda.” I never said that the Shamgar, Mazuz, and Olmert were good sources, or that they were not “idiots.” The reason I mentioned them was to give one area where you could elucidate your definition of “propaganda,” since you gave no evidence as to what you meant by “propaganda.”

    “Christians” have spread massive killing, starvation, and genocide, and they (we) continue to do so. Actually, our Christian nations have even found a way (thanks to scientists of European/American and Jewish descent) to completely annihilate the planet several times over. We don’t need to mention that Israel has a few hundred nuclear weapons (more than Iran, Jordan, Egypt, and Palestine, which have zero) and could start the trigger to this annihilation.

    If you say that non-Jewish people are bad for things like sex, infanticide, persecuting the poor, etc, you should look at your own crimes as well. The list of killed children/civilians killed from B’tselem (or any other mainstream human rights source) can show Israeli society is just like any other. With the support of my country, we’ve killed many innocents.

    With this deluge of bad news, I think all of us have something to look forward to. Even though Ruvy seems beyond rational discussion-due to his “militant” religious views, and the view that the “G-d of Israel” should have no problem with genocide (“swipe you all away”; not allowing “such savages” in “His universe”)-most Israelis seem willing to want peace/work toward a solution.

    Ruvy said “it is no use citing the Geneva Convention to most Israelis,” because they “generally don’t give a damn about anything the Useless Nothings put out.” He gave no source. I agreed with his advice in the July 20th blog when he says one “ought to” show a source with “legitimate data.” I’ll just assume his statement about “most Israelis” comes from his personal poll with people he comes in contact with. This hardly constitutes “legitimate data.” Maybe you can publish your poll. Maybe I missed it. I would imagine that most Israelis do not want their prisoners mistreated anymore than most Palestinians.

    I did, however, happen to find a study that shows some hope. Details about the study are included. It said that about 60% of Israelis and Palestinians “believe that taking the unilateral path decreases the chances to eventually reach a final status settlement.” And about three fourths of both prefer to see further disengagements in the West Bank.

    In addition, if it’s true that “most Israelis” “generally don’t give a damn about anything the Useless Nothings put out,” they should quit the United Nations. It would be ironic, since the current state of Israel owes its creation (and continued existence) to the United Nations (especially the U.S. and England) when it was formed on May 11, 1949.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Awareness:

    Are you sure you want to use this for a screen name? It is way to easy to have fun with. Truth of the matter is that I have addressed your comments not at all, and barely referred to what you have said. My comments were directed at Chris Rose, whose remarks can be found at comment #18.

    Unlike Liam and Chris, you have provided links to the assertions you make and deserve to be answered in kind. This means that I’ll have to do some looking to make the points I wish to. I’ll just make one note.

    I’m not a pollster, but I do have wide ranging discussions with many Israelis of all backgrounds. The level of contempt we tend to feel for the UN is universally high except among those traitorous fools who remain on the loony left, like B’Tzelem, ICAHD, Rabbis for Human Rights, etc. I say traitorous because their behavior is such that it is violative of Israel’s definition of treason. But, having said that, it is not likely that these groups would be brought up on charges – the governing establishment, from the president, the prime minister and much of his cabinet as well as the “high court of justice” are engaged in treason as well. This article at Think Israel, referring to what would become the Gaza expulsion of 2005, says, “…any withdrawal from these areas which would automatically result in the loss of Israel’s de facto sovereignty over them is an act tantamount to the crime of treason under section 97(b).” One criminal will not turn another in.

    There is a lot more to say to answer you, of course. Unfortunately, there is the minor matter of making a living to be attended to, so I’ll have to return to you later. Do bear in mind, that you have answered for several people who have seen fit to maintain silence…

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, I have a perfectly good grasp of English, on the other hand, you are in the grasp of a delusion so profound that you can no longer understand the majority of what people say to you.

    To deal with your “points” in the order you raised them:-

    I’m not a militant atheist; indeed, outside of occasional remarks on this site, religion and all its inherent deceptions and mindbending distortions are happily absent from my life. You, you crazy little zealot you, are extrapolating falsehoods from one minor aspect. Of course, that is entirely in line with the crazed religious nonsense you spout on these pages regularly, so it comes as no surprise, just confirmation that there are cakes with greater clarity of thought!

    Age may well convey a longer view of events but if that view is coloured by falsehood and dodgy logic, as in your case, it only magnifies the madness of your view, not gives you a greater grasp of facts or even reason. For this reason alone, everything you say is dubious, to say the least.

    Learning another language is always a good thing; I know that learning Spanish has deepened my cultural understanding more than the aggregate total of the varied amounts of French, German, Welsh and Flemish I’ve learned. That’s no guarantee that one’s grasp of logic or reason is functioning well though.

    The article above isn’t “journalism”, indeed, it is clearly labelled “Opinion” at the top. Once again your blind fanaticism fools you. And to have an informed opinion as opposed to a dubious set of prejudices, it is necessary to shake off the blinkers of dogma, something you are entirely unable to do.

    Until you and others like you, Jew, Muslim, Christian, regardless of the blind faith you claim to believe in, as you all worship the same “god”, wake up to the fact that we are all one people and have more common and shared interests than these frankly embarrassing ancient myths and delusions lead you to believe, the whole disgusting spectacle we see daily throughout the Middle East and beyond is going to continue on for a very long and utterly pointless time.

    More facts to refute your mania: in the modern meaning of the word, there was no technology 3,000 years ago so how could it still be worshipped?

    You rant about being enamoured by sex but how true is that? Sure, a lot of popular culture talks about it but why not? Sex is a very important part of most people’s lives and it is surely better to have things out in the open than the repression and neurosis that characterised much of the past.

    Personally, I’ve never partaken in an orgy and have never met anyone who has; abortion is always traumatic but it is a private affair and not to be controlled by extremists; persecuting the poor, spitting on widows and the elderly, putting sticks in front of the blind, mocking the deaf, taking slaves? Where are you getting all this pathetic crap from?

    If this virulent crap is the kind of nonsense your ancient and outdated belief system leads you to believe, you are the finest example I know of for demonstrating the utter uselessness of the entire credo and its two younger derivatives. The god delusion is a dangerous and irrational theory and clearly presents a major threat to all humanity.

  • Awareness

    Once again, the awareness label is more about what I hope to learn, not so much what I’m giving people.
    I’m not sure what constitutes the “loony left.” B’Tselem records atrocities by both sides, the ICAHD is doing what most Israelis would do if their homes were being destroyed by Palestinian bulldozers, and Rabbis for Human Rights are “defending the human rights of all people in Israel and in the territories under Israeli control”. If protecting the human rights of people in your country/under your control is “loony” and/or “left,” maybe it’s a positive thing to be this way.
    If it’s treasonous gather data and support the protection of human rights, I would say this is beyond ridiculous. Would any one want their own human rights to be violated? Would it be correct to suspend the human rights of Israelis? Of course not.
    As for section 97(b), I’m not sure Israel has rightful status for the area in Gaza and the West Bank. And Israel is probably more insecure when they try to hold a hostile population within those areas. The UN/World Court has stated that the territories acquired by Israel during the 1967 war must be given back. That is, if one has any respect for international law.