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Outsourcing isn’t so Bad

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I was over at Lynne Keisling’s “knowledge problem” a little bit earlier, and she was talking about how the sugar industry is beginning to attack Splenda. She brings up the issue of how the government provides a high level of protection for the American sugar industry. Now, I live in Louisiana, where fewer than 50 families dominate the sugar industry. Every few years, when a Senate seat is available or a governorship is up for election, the Democrat in the election usually brings out a bombshell towards the end of the campaign saying that the Republicans are trying to destroy the Louisiana sugar industry via outsourcing. This tactic has been proven reliable and has brought us some of the most savvy politicians in key areas in our state and federal governments, such as Senator Mary Landrieu and Governor Kathleen Blanco.

How is it that a group of 50 families have such a buying power in this state? It all goes back 400 years to a group of politically brilliant men living in France. They saw an opportunity in America, and more specifically the area that is now Louisiana. Each of these men built very strong families in North America, and these families have gone on unobstructed through today. A very large threat to these families, one that could bring down these local aristocrats is the possibility of deregulation of foreign sugar. This would be a huge benefit to the American people, as well as other foreign nations.

One of the common misconceptions is that wealth is finite, and politicians (especially Democrats) have manipulated this misconception to make the American public believe that outsourcing is a scourge on the nation. Nothing could be further from the truth. Let us take, for example, Hewlett-Packard, outsourcing hardware manufacturing to, say, India. The quality of the product has not diminished because of the lack of American hands, and HP stockholders and employees benefit from the lower costs of these laborers (many of whom live in the United States). These laborers in India benefit the most, though. Although the amount they make is relatively small in comparison to American standards, the mere fact is that these people now have a way to make money while not working for the Indian aristocracy. Those wealthy families are much like our Sugar Cartel, controlling the market through government protectionism.

So now more and more Indians are working for an American company accruing wealth. This wealth is largely returned back to the US. These families must eat, and now they can afford American goods, some of the best in the world. After a few years, they may want a computer (an American computer, yet built by their own hands). Recently, Microsoft has begun developing a version of Windows for developing nations (all of these developing nations are ones that we outsource jobs to).

Nearly all of the money we outsource does make it back to the United States. We help out developing nations, and they help us out. Now, compare this to foreign aid packages, giving billions of dollars to develping nations for free. What is the chance that this money will be returned to us? Well, foreign aid has proven to not trickle down, but instead stay with the very powerful officials within those countries, thus increasing the amount of control they can have over that nation. It would be great to outsource sugar, to bring down the aristocracy. These people need to stop buying my government, and who doesn’t want a 20 cent candy bar?

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About Andrew Hughes

  • http://www.anyletter.blogspot.com Andrew

    let the flames begin!

  • Anonymous

    Democrats/protectionists would be right…

    If the world was going to end in 2006. They have a consistent inability to look beyond the initial outcome of a policy change.

  • http://paskudnyak.blogspot.com The Proprietor

    We should distinguish between outsourcing, which is the transfer of functions outside a company and offshoring, which is transferring operations to another country. To use the example cited in this article, if HP continues to own the operation in India and the workers there are HP employees, then this is offshoring, not outsourcing. Outsourcing can consist of transferring certain employees on paper to another company, and they retain their jobs, phone numbers, work locations and other accoutrements with the sole exception of their paychecks being signed by someone else.

    One thing that’s rarely considered about deals where jobs are outsourced or offshored is that risks are often very poorly managed, and the company doing the outsourcing ends up with failed projects and angry customers. Very often the gold rush in sunnier climes has resulted in almost anyone with a pulse being pressed into service, regardless of communications skills. Cultural norms in offshored environments often do not allow for pushback, a particular example I’ve seen in software development where a huge unreasonable list of requirements was foisted upon offshored developers, and the answer to everything was “Yes”, rather than an intelligent questioning of the requirements and compromises being made.

  • alienboy

    I’m a bit confused by this post. To summarise, you don’t like Foreign Aid or Americans of French descent? Is that it?

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Company X needs 100 people to do a job. It can hire those 100 people in the US @ 20 bucks an hour, OR it can hire 100 people in Mexico @ 5 bucks an hour. The product they produce is the same, and of the same quality.

    By reducing their labor costs, company X can afford to lower the prices it charges consumers for their product. IOW, it becomes more easily affordable for American consumers.

    So, 290 million American consumers benefit, and 100 American jobs are “lost”…

    It’s a trade-off, of course. But I’ll take the cheaper products, TYVM. And those 100 Americans will find another job somewhere else, even if some retraining is required before that takes place.

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    I find it interesting that people are willing to lower American wages for so much to match those lower levels in other countries. Because that’s what’s already happening. Overseas it will rise and here wages will drop.

    That’s not ultimatealy good for the American worker – blue OR white collar. It’s not just the “crappy” jobs going elsewhere.

    Put to its logical conclusion – what will Americans do when a lot of work – with populations growing faster than ours – ends up overseas?

    We know prices won’t go down much because of this. It just doesn’t work that way. The only drastically reduced prices have been in technology – and that’s because the manufacturing process is now much cheaper.

    And … >>outsourcing hardware manufacturing to, say, India. The quality of the product has not diminished because of the lack of American hands, and HP stockholders and employees benefit from the lower costs of these laborers (many of whome live in the United States)

    huh? “Many of whom live in the US?

  • gonzo marx

    RJ i believe you have drunk the kool-aide

    now, take the time to scope out just how many jobs have been sent off-shore…far more than that mere 100..then look at the average wage of the jobs that have replaced them

    next..please show me that “20 cent candy bar” or ANY other product outside of chinese made goods in Wal-Mart that have hit our shores..this is the classic Argument used, and it just doesn’t hold water when held up to the Facts at the end of the day

    i am of the Henry Ford school on this..when asked why he paid his workers such high salaries he responded “somebody has to be able to afford to buy these automobiles”

    to me, that makes far better economic sense than to set up a business model in the vein of Enron or to offshore our maufacturing and tech jobs until we become a third world priced labor pool

    but those CEO’s and supply-siders that advocate this style of business model have long since given up on any civic minded Ethic…their quarterly bottom line and Golden Parachutes MUST be achieved no matter how many real people are trampled along the way

    i do hope that Dante sets up a special place in Hell for those types…more than likely on the Ninth Ring with the other Traitors and Betrayers

    polish up yer Mandarin folks…now we are giving the chinese IBM…

    the Bank of China and the Bank of Japan are holding more than 3/4’s of our National Debt, which climbs to unheard of heights every second, and our Trade Deficit has grown even greater than the most pessimistic predictions as announced last week

    there may be no intelligent life in Washington to staunch the flow of our Nation’s LifeBlood…

    but there IS intelligent Life in Beijing

    nuff said?

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>now, take the time to scope out just how many jobs have been sent off-shore…far more than that mere 100..then look at the average wage of the jobs that have replaced them<< A brilliant theory, but all just negativistic speculation. The fact is that companies that send jobs overseas do so because it makes them more efficient and more productive. This allows them to expand their operations and create MORE jobs – the goal of business is always to expand operations. Since they send relatively menial jobs overseas the jobs they add here in the US are in management and other higher paying areas. So we’re exporting the scut work and thereby creating more and better jobs. The ‘outsourcing’ issue is entirely bogus. On average companies which send jobs overseas increase overall employment in the US by 20% within a year of outsourcing jobs – the outsourcing is a sign of corporate growth and success and that means more jobs here in the US. This is just another issue manufactured out of whole cloth by doom and gloom leftists to try to run down capitalism and deny the reality of growth in our economy. Dave

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    The fact is that companies that send jobs overseas do so because it makes them more efficient and more productive.

    Not all of them. Some send the work over simply because it can be done by workers who they can pay less. Productivity and efficiency might be happy outcomes, but they’re not always the goal.

    I know someone who, as the CEO of a small technology company, hired ten programmers in India to do valued development work for his company. The BoD and investors provided a minuscule budget on which to get the work accomplished, *expecting* him to send the jobs overseas. It had nothing to do with productivity and everything to do with cost.

    This allows them to expand their operations and create MORE jobs – the goal of business is always to expand operations.

    Well, many times, the “more jobs” are going overseas. We’re having a “jobless” recovery in the US. US companies are starting to recover financially, but they’re not hiring at the clip economists expected. They’re holding on to their increased profits.

    Since they send relatively menial jobs overseas the jobs they add here in the US are in management and other higher paying areas. So we’re exporting the scut work and thereby creating more and better jobs.

    Wrong again. Technology companies, in particular, are hiring educated workers overseas instead of hiring educated workers here. My husband’s company, for example, has hired no additional US based software/database geeks for the past few years. They have, however, opened an office in India and continue to hire people over there. Any time a US programmer/developer leaves the company, if they hire a replacement, they hire one in India.

    So they’re not hiring out “scut work” or “menial” jobs, they’re hiring out critical development work.

    I realize that I’m providing anecdotal evidence. But it’s real and it’s definitely part of the trend, not an anomaly. In a tech-heavy employment region like the Boston area, where I live, the offshoring trend is hitting experienced developers very hard.

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    >> The ‘outsourcing’ issue is entirely bogus. On average companies which send jobs overseas increase overall employment in the US by 20% within a year of outsourcing jobs

    Link?

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Yes, some programming work goes overseas, but the actual volume jobs which are going overseas are assembly jobs, call center jobs and telemarketing type jobs. Those are not high-salary jobs, they’re low-end jobs. Sure, there are some of the more skilled jobs going overseas, but by numbers they’re a tiny proportion. And from what I’ve seen most of that work is contract work anyway. As in the case you described. You hire an Indian programming group to do a specific project, not as long-term employees. That hits the consulting industry, but the same consulting companies are acting as middlemen when you hire those Indians, so I’m not sure how much of a job loss is really involved.

    Dave

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    Sure, there are some of the more skilled jobs going overseas, but by numbers they’re a tiny proportion.

    Evidence? And is the rate at which this is happening increasing, decreasing, or leveling off?

    And from what I’ve seen most of that work is contract work anyway. As in the case you described.

    I described two cases, one in which the work was project-based and the other where full-time permanent employees are being hired by a US company.

    You hire an Indian programming group to do a specific project, not as long-term employees.

    Maybe that’s how you run your business, but it’s exactly the opposite of what my husband’s company has been doing for the past few years. Again, they are hiring full-time, permanent employees in India rather than hiring them here.

    That hits the consulting industry, but the same consulting companies are acting as middlemen when you hire those Indians, so I’m not sure how much of a job loss is really involved.

    I don’t understand what you mean. In my friend-the-CEO’s case, he hired ten people in India instead of ten people here. That’s ten jobs lost here, whether they were consulting jobs or permanent jobs.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    the actual volume jobs which are going overseas are assembly jobs, call center jobs and telemarketing type jobs. Those are not high-salary jobs, they’re low-end jobs.

    Over on the poverty thread, it was recommended that we don’t give people on the low end of the spectrum an education but rather a vocational training. Over here, the fact that it’s their vocations that are the high volume of jobs going overseas gets a casual reference in a comment and isn’t even a main point.

    Couple that with the fact that the Bankruptcy Bill caps out at 125k to keep a home from being lost, and I see a lot of lower middle class people in extreme jeopardy. An assembly line worker with a 250k house loses his job overseas, can’t get an education to better himself and loses his home in a bankruptcy. Further compound that with the possible ramifications these people will suffer if they are unable to lean on SS in any beneficial amount in the future and I see the whole bottom section of the middle class having the floor cut out from under them.

  • gonzo marx

    those so-called “low paying menial jobs” average over $10 an hour…higher depending on the region of the country you are speaking of…2 large call centers here in Maine closed…over 500 jobs lost…average salary $14.75 an hour

    in this part of the world that is a comfortable , lower middle class job…WITH benefits, priceless for a rural state…

    the workers hired in India average salary…$4.25 an hour…excellent for them

    but i’m an american, and a mainer…so i am a bit biased

    lastly..i might suggest that those who are spewing out “facts” try CNN’s show “Lou Dobbs Moneyline”

    for about 2 years now the host has been tracking this issue…facts , numbers, leading economists CEO’s etc…

    he even gives weekly updats on the figures of how many jobs lost, what industries and so on…entertaining and informative..

    of course afterwards you may want to drink bleach….or force your local CEO to do so…

    so the next time you think “oh those jobs going overseas are just scut work”…think of that person you know who might have lost their $10-$20 an hour job and is now an asst manager at McD’s…or a greeter at Wal-Mart for half the price, part time with no benefits…

    or just wait until it is your Father’s job, that he has had for 20 years that goes…after he trains his low wage replacement…

    nuff said?

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>lastly..i might suggest that those who are spewing out “facts” try CNN’s show “Lou Dobbs Moneyline”< < Someone remind me - what was that show a few weeks ago wher ethey either had Lou Dobbs on or ran clips of his and addressed this issue and he was just completely crushed with actual facts? I can't for the life of me remember which show it was, but it was pretty amazing. Was it John Stossel? As for those $10-$14 jobs not being menial, that's the wage level for customer support and phonebank people. In the high tech industries those are the peons - they define menial in those industries. >so the next time you think “oh those jobs going overseas are just scut work”…think of that person you know who might have lost their $10-$20 an hour job and is now an asst manager at McD’s…or a greeter at Wal-Mart for half the price, part time with no benefits…< Ridiculous supposition. There’s no reason why a person with computer skills would ever have to take those jobs. Data entry jobs and call center at $12 an hour or more go begging in the newspapers of every major city in America. Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>I don’t understand what you mean. In my friend-the-CEO’s case, he hired ten people in India instead of ten people here. That’s ten jobs lost here, whether they were consulting jobs or permanent jobs.
    << So, did your friend fire 10 programmers, or was his business expanding and he hired 10 programmers in India? If the latter, as your earlier comments imply, then it cost the US no jobs, because as a small businessman he might not have been able to afford to hire 10 Americans to do that job. The espansion of the business was contingent on hiring those programmers. And then there’s the work the programmers did – did it increase his volume of business at all? Did he have to hire management or sales people as a result? Typically with an expansion of that sort 2 hires in the US would go along with the overseas hires – someone to oversee the project and either an assistant for that person or a sales person to handle the product line – depening on what kind of work this company does. So that would be a net increase in jobs here in the US because a small company was able to hire some people overseas. Strangely, the growth of a small business and more employment here in the US and in a friendly growing country seems highly desirable to me. Dave

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    So, did your friend fire 10 programmers, or was his business expanding and he hired 10 programmers in India? If the latter, as your earlier comments imply, then it cost the US no jobs, because as a small businessman he might not have been able to afford to hire 10 Americans to do that job.

    He was expanding, but only after he’d trimmed the US employee head count down during the downturn. So he had laid off at least as many US-based workers as he then later hired in India.

    That’s a permanent loss of ten jobs. During a recovery, the US is supposed to get those jobs back. At this company, that didn’t happen.

    If the latter, as your earlier comments imply, then it cost the US no jobs, because as a small businessman he might not have been able to afford to hire 10 Americans to do that job.

    He could have. But the edict from the people with the money was that they didn’t WANT to. Why should they — it’s much cheaper in India.

    And then there’s the work the programmers did – did it increase his volume of business at all? Did he have to hire management or sales people as a result?

    Perhaps — I don’t know those details. But those hires would have occurred if he’d hired US workers, too. Again, it’s not that the company couldn’t expand the business without going to India. It’s that they chose to go to India.

    Of course, they saved tons of money doing that. But this tactic basically puts American high-tech workers in direct competition with workers in another country with a much lower standard of living. That’s not a good trend for our educated, experienced high tech workers.

    Strangely, the growth of a small business and more employment here in the US and in a friendly growing country seems highly desirable to me.

    Your assumptions about the “more employment” here is flawed. Those jobs would have been created regardless of where the programming jobs landed.

    I also think it’s highly desirable that India become a part of the global economy and that more Indians have a better standard of living. But the costs to the American workforce and their standard of living have to be considered. It’s not all good, and it’s not all bad.

    The irony of the current situation in India, of course, is that Indian firms are now offshoring the work they get from American companies. It costs them less to pay Chinese workers than it does Indian workers because the cost of Indian labor has risen so sharply over the past few years. So they bid on the work and then give it to a cheaper labor force.

    So you see the flaw in this trend: We have poor countries competing against each other to offer the cheapest labor, not only in manufacturing but in critical technology development jobs. That’s not entirely a positive sign.

  • http://selfaudit.blogspot.com Aaman

    This is nothing new – the industrial revolution moved jobs to Lancashire from textile centers the world over. The automobile industry can teach IT a thing or two about effective global sourcing, as we call this model for delivering the most bang for the buck.

    I could go on, and probably will, seeing that this is my profession – will post on the trend – pros and cons soon.

  • gonzo marx

    Dave , please supply us with links or FACTS to support the positions you have taken ..i am very interested to see if i am mistaken about my informational sources…

    as for those 10 to 14 dollar an hour jobs being “peons”..well, more power to you Brother if you are a position to think such..

    unfortunately the vast majority of americans are NOT in such a position, and it is this situation that needs correcting…

    i do enjoy the discussion, but you keep attempting to refute the FACTS placed before you with “what program was that?” and statements of Theory without the pertinent FACTS to bolster your hypothesis…

    tell me…are you of the persuasion that believes Fox news is truly “fair and balanced”?, cuz my libertarian self will know exactly what is going on here dpending on your Answer…

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    2This is nothing new – the industrial revolution moved jobs to Lancashire from textile centers the world over.

    And those jobs were often replaced by better paying, different jobs here. Sometimes they weren’t.

    The biggest question for offshoring IT jobs is this: what jobs will replace them?

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>Dave , please supply us with links or FACTS to support the positions you have taken ..i am very interested to see if i am mistaken about my informational sources…< < Your facts are mostly not wrong, it's your understanding of the facts which is flawed. Here's a quick quote from John Stossel's refutation of Lou Dobbs. I'll get back with more from the referenced report from Dartmouth later.

      “Bill Portelli, who runs the California-based company Collabnet, says outsourcing has helped him keep his company alive in the United States. He has hired programmers in India who are paid less than half what he would have to pay American programmers. “It doesn’t cheat Americans out of jobs. If I hadn’t hired the people in India, I would have had to lay people off,” he said.

      He didn’t end up laying any Americans off as a result of outsourcing, because outsourcing saved Collabnet so much money the company was able to expand in America. “Basically I’ve created jobs in America. I built better products, created jobs, been able to raise salaries,” Portelli said.

      A Dartmouth study found that outsourcers actually create jobs in America at a faster rate than companies that don’t outsource. The same study found that companies that outsourced abroad ended up hiring twice as many workers at home.

      Allowing outsourcing creates opportunity. It’s easy to see the pain of the workers who are laid off; it’s harder to see the benefits of free trade, because those benefits aren’t news.

      It’s true that in the last four years, America has lost more than 1 million jobs, but those were years when we had a recession. Look at the big picture. Since 1992, America has lost 361 million jobs, but during that same time we also gained 380 million jobs. Millions more than we lost.”

      >>as for those 10 to 14 dollar an hour jobs being “peons”..well, more power to you Brother if you are a position to think such..< < You have to think of them in context. That's a low salary in the industries they're working in where eveyrone else is making more than that. >>i do enjoy the discussion, but you keep attempting to refute the FACTS placed before you with “what program was that?” and statements of Theory without the pertinent FACTS to bolster your hypothesis…< < Not sure what you're talking about here. >>tell me…are you of the persuasion that believes Fox news is truly “fair and balanced”?,< < I'm of the school that adds Fox news and MSNBC together and sees balanced news. >> cuz my libertarian self will know exactly what is going on here dpending on your Answer…<<< Libertarian my ass. I’m a Libertarian. John Stossel is a Libertarian. You’re something else alltogether. Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Ok, I’ve done some followup work on outsourcing data for Gonzo. The report Stossel references is one of a number of papers on related topics by Professor Matthew Slaughter of Dartmouth. On his web page are links to his various economic articles and papers. The one you might want to look at is the one on Outsourcing and MNEs for the WSJ. In the PDF pay particular attention to Table 1, which shows how multinational corporations which hire workers outside the US don’t seem to sacrifice any US jobs when they expand their overseas workforce.

    A visit to FactCheck.org, which assessed Kerry’s claims that outsourcing was a major problem in the US, ultimately led me to the BLS website where there are some statistics on outsourcing or offshoring. Their statistics show a couple of very significant things. First, that the level of job relocation overseas peaked in 2001 and has been significantly declining since then. Second, that the total number of jobs which go overseas is very small, perhaps 2.5% of the total turnover in the job market.

    In the course of looking at the BLS I was eventually lead to the BEA (Bureau of Economic Analysis) which has some data that mirrors what Slaughter dug up. What it comes down to in a nutshell is that moving jobs overseas has been stable or declined for multinationals which already have overseas operations. If that’s the case – if MNEs are not moving more jobs out of the US when it is already part of their business structure – why would we expect it to be a major trend for companies which don’t already have that kind of easy access to overseas workers?

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    ok..thanks for sharing some of yer source material with us..it helps to further intelligent discourse..

    your “quick quote” is very typical of the examples cited when discussing these matters…a cherry picked anecdotal case that supports the argument…companies like Collabnet are NOT what i am speaking about here…in that case it is clearly stated that new jobs were created by adding those programmers in India…

    what i have been trying to demonstrate are the vast majority of the offshored jobs are taken FROM american workers..in many cases the US workers are training their replacements..and that these instances are detracting, not adding to the overall US economy..

    >>It’s true that in the last four years, America has lost more than 1 million jobs, but those were years when we had a recession. Look at the big picture. Since 1992, America has lost 361 million jobs, but during that same time we also gained 380 million jobs. Millions more than we lost.”< < this is the one at the very nut of the matter , IMHO...i have taken a look at the numbers according to the GAO and adjusted for inflation...it you average all the jobs lost salaries versus all the jobs gained salaries you will find that over the period in question we have suffered a net loss from somewhere between 2 and 6 dollars an hour, depending on formulae...this in spite of the numeric gain in total "jobs" the GAO study goes on to show that this is due, in large part, to the fact that higher paying factory jobs were the ones first shipped out...replaced by service jobs and tech industries...which are now being replaced by part time contract work with no benefits, and lower paying service jobs as well as retail... i am not entirely satisfied with all the information i have been able to gather here...some sources are suspect....but the sheer fact that these numbers are even statistically CLOSE to each other, with the "millions" more factored in , shows quite a disturbing trend that shows no signs of abating... i could rattle off quite the four year history of this trend here in the state of Maine, beginning with the textile industry and ending today with MBNA announcing today that they would be closing their Rockport facility and thus cutting 500 call center jobs but i digress... >>You have to think of them in context. That’s a low salary in the industries they’re working in where eveyrone else is making more than that.< < i put to you that i will ALWAYS side with the 1000 folks that lost those middle class jobs over the 10 executives that make out better on the deal..i'm quirky like that >>I’m of the school that adds Fox news and MSNBC together and sees balanced news.< < that says a lot..so two corporate owned entertaniment companies that have shown precious little Ethical backbone and instead chase only the almighty advertising dollar can be averaged together for an Objective telling of facts...to each their own i guess, i Respect your Right to choose as you please...me...i take all corporate sources as "headlines" then dig around for myself to make up my own mind...i tend to always be suspect of Agenda's...no matter whose they are... and finally...>>Libertarian my ass. I’m a Libertarian. John Stossel is a Libertarian. You’re something else alltogether.<< while i Agree that i may just be something else all together…i must say your rush to a snap Judgement in an attempt to disparage me from the palty factual basis of a few hundred words typed on a blog forum shows a bit of small mindedness as well as intolerance such is your Right, of course…but allow me to elucidate.. i firmly believe in the Libertarian platform position of “none of the above”..there is rarely anyone i wish to vote FOR…but there is ALWAYS someone i will vote AGAINST tho i may disagree philosophically with may positions taken by a lot of folks within the Libertarian Party…the basic principles of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” form the core basis of my personal political beliefs.. i remain quite the fiscal Conservative…libertarian on most social issues and resolute in my belief that the social Contract between the individual Citizens of the US as expressed by our Constitution and the Bill of Rights clearly delineates and limits our Government in what it can and can’t do to provide the citizenry with the Environment to excercise our aforementioned Rights… this also Postulates that a Corporation has NO rights, it being an unliving legal entity only, that is required to operate within the framework of the Laws and Regulations set forth by a limited Government to protect the Citizens interests…period perhaps it is the Name i am using that throws you off a bit?…the marx is Homage to Groucho..not Karl..and fitting for a Jester, eh? 😉 i’m glad we have had this chance to share our Opinions…hopefully it gives our gentle Readers something to think about… nuff said? Excelsior!

  • RedTard

    This is about the chickens finally coming home to roost. For years the US and Western Europe have been exploiting less devoloped countries around the world to sustain their own economies. Meanwhile their own populations have become fat and lazy with a disgusting sense of entitlement.

    The recent developments with “free” trade have caused the world to act more like a macrocapitalist system correcting the artificial imbalances.

    Most Americans believe shuffling paperwork around behind a desk for a couple hours a day for twenty years or so entitles them to a lifetime of living like a king (or queen).

    The reality is that shuffling paper doesn’t build that dream house — illegal Mexican immigrants do.

    Shuffling paper doesn’t sew those designer clothes — 10 year old Chinese girls do.

    I think its only fair that those countries who have, willingly or not, through blood, sweat, tears and 90 hour workweeks of menial labor made the US the wealthiest nation on earth finally get to share in that windfall.

  • gonzo marx

    oh my stars and garters..

    RedTide…so much of what you have just spewed is so wrong on so many levels it just boggles what passes for my Mind…

    >>Most Americans believe shuffling paperwork around behind a desk for a couple hours a day for twenty years or so entitles them to a lifetime of living like a king (or queen).<< most Americans? am i to gather that you have done some sort of personal survey and have calculated your statistics to come up with this ludicrous statement? i don’t know what people you are speaking about..but let me assure you, as an American, that this is far from Truth about “most” of us…very few make their living “pushing papers” i’d like ot know what countries have worked so hard to “make” America anything? and how so? this is not to say that there have not been times and circumstances where American businesses have not exploited the populations or resources of other countries…History shows that they have..but i do believe that any Objective research will show that the vast majority of America’s wealth has been generated by the work of Americans themselves so run along..learn some History, then take a stab at Economics…then c’mon back and try and add to the Conversation…i for one will be more than happy to join you in it but baseless flames such as what you have put forward so far will only make me yearn for a time when your Karma will run over your Dogma and i can enjoy observing the remaining spineless mass of brain dead goo crawling towards the Metaphorical curb… nuff said? Excelsior!

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    but i do believe that any Objective research will show that the vast majority of America’s wealth has been generated by the work of Americans themselves

    Especially those helpful slaves, back in the day!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Words of the Gonzo:

    >>your “quick quote” is very typical of the examples cited when discussing these matters…a cherry picked anecdotal case that supports the argument…companies like Collabnet are NOT what i am speaking about here…in that case it is clearly stated that new jobs were created by adding those programmers in India…< < Now remember, I didn't pick this example, it's John Stossel's. But it's as valid as the earlier cited anecdotal example of a company that outsourced jobs and didn't grow in the US as part of the process. I can dig up other anecdotal tales as well - a lot of them. But I have yet to find a comprehensive subject which looks at exactly this issue. The studies I cited later from the BLS and BEA and Slaughter at Dartmouth are close, but not quite on target. Someone needs to do these studies and see which anecdotal stories are more true. However, logic suggests two things to me. First, that the anecdotal evidence is symptomatic of real trends. Second, that which anecdote fits the real trend depends on the industry in question. I think that outsourcing in the high tech industries is likely to tend to be good for the company and lead to growth and more employment. Outsourcing in old fashioned heavy industry may have a much worse effect. Some have also made a good argument that outsourcing is offset by insourcing - when foreign companies come to the US to start factories - usually final assembly and shipping warehouses - to reduce distribution and transportation costs. It's a good point, but there's no direct relationship between this and outsourcing. >>what i have been trying to demonstrate are the vast majority of the offshored jobs are taken FROM american workers..in many cases the US workers are training their replacements..and that these instances are detracting, not adding to the overall US economy..< < I think this applies mostly to old heavy industry, and this is where most of the anecdotal evidence comes from. John Stossel's answer to this is that when a factory closes, the natural ongoing growth of our current economy reopens that facility fairly quickly as a different sort of business, and the people who lost their jobs find jobs in construction or remodeling at that site, or in the new business that takes it over. >>this is the one at the very nut of the matter , IMHO…i have taken a look at the numbers according to the GAO and adjusted for inflation…it you average all the jobs lost salaries versus all the jobs gained salaries you will find that over the period in question we have suffered a net loss from somewhere between 2 and 6 dollars an hour, depending on formulae…this in spite of the numeric gain in total “jobs”< < I don't see how you figure this when the net gain in jobs is up and the BLS also shows overall salaries in almost all areas to have increased. This has to be an indicator of downward mobility, but I have yet to see a study that really shows this. Can you send me a link to the GAO study? >>the GAO study goes on to show that this is due, in large part, to the fact that higher paying factory jobs were the ones first shipped out…replaced by service jobs and tech industries…which are now being replaced by part time contract work with no benefits, and lower paying service jobs as well as retail…< < That would make sense. It's inevitable, really. If people lose established jobs and start at new jobs - even if it's a new job of the same sort at a similar company - their starting salary is likely to be lower because of loss of longevity and COLA increases and the like. This kind of a drop is unavoidable, but these salaries ought to bounce back after they've been at the new job for a while. IMO we're better off without many of the factory jobs in the overall economic picture - a lot of that old industry is a dead end as far as economic growth. That this >>i am not entirely satisfied with all the information i have been able to gather here…some sources are suspect….but the sheer fact that these numbers are even statistically CLOSE to each other, with the “millions” more factored in , shows quite a disturbing trend that shows no signs of abating…< < I'm not satisfied with your data or my data. I'd like to see an actual study done on the specific subject of what outsourcing actually does to companies in different industries in a more direct way. But right now I'm not convinced that the trend is all that disturbing, mainly because although there are plenty of anecdotes floating around, the total number of outsourced jobs appears to be pretty low - not high enough to constitute a crisis. >>
    >>I’m of the school that adds Fox news and MSNBC together and sees balanced news.< < that says a lot..so two corporate owned entertaniment companies that have shown precious little Ethical backbone and instead chase only the almighty advertising dollar can be averaged together for an Objective telling of facts...to each their own i guess, << Well, the result of averaging the two extreme examples of partisan press is something like a middle of the road view, is it not? Or at least enough contradictory reports to resolve into something useful. >>Respect your Right to choose as you please…me…i take all corporate sources as “headlines” then dig around for myself to make up my own mind…i tend to always be suspect of
    Agenda’s…no matter whose they are…< < I have some faith in my ability to filter the facts out of the agendas, but I also get a lot of my news online - I even find a good bit of it here on blogcritics. >>and finally…>>Libertarian my ass. I’m a Libertarian. John Stossel is a Libertarian. You’re something else alltogether.< < while i Agree that i may just be something else all together...i must say your rush to a snap Judgement in an attempt to disparage me from the palty factual basis of a few hundred words typed on a blog forum shows a bit of small mindedness as well as intolerance<< I get tired of people like Bill Maher who call themselves Libertarians and have no idea what the term means. Tends to set me off. I also have a real distaste for 'social libertarians', who distort the Libertarian message to serve a socialist agenda in a most perverse way.>>i firmly believe in the Libertarian platform position of “none of the above”..there is rarely anyone i wish to vote FOR…but there is ALWAYS someone i will vote AGAINST< < Well, that's one issue - and one which transcends Libertarian philosophy. can see how it would appeal to many. >>i remain quite the fiscal Conservative…libertarian on most social issues and resolute in my belief that the social Contract between the individual Citizens of the US as expressed by our Constitution and the Bill of Rights clearly delineates and limits our Government in what it can and can’t do to provide the citizenry with the Environment to excercise our aforementioned Rights…< < Can't argue with you up to this point. >>this also Postulates that a Corporation has NO rights, it being an unliving legal entity only, that is required to operate within the framework of the Laws and Regulations set forth by a limited Government to protect the Citizens interests…period< < Here's where you go dead wrong. A corporation is an embodiment of the will and rights of the individual stockholders. They invest that corporation with their rights within the context of corporate operations. If you violate the rights of the corporation to function, to hold property, to do business freely, then you are violating the fundamental rights of every one of those stockholders. A government and a corporation are very much the same sort of entity, something empowered by its citizenry to act in their name. The only difference is that the corporation represents a few hundred thousand stockholders as opposed to an entire population. >>perhaps it is the Name i am using that throws you off a bit?…the marx is Homage to Groucho..not Karl..and fitting for a Jester, eh? ;)< < I figured that out...it being the obvious explanation, after all. >>i’m glad we have had this chance to share our Opinions…hopefully it gives our gentle Readers something to think about…<< I think we can agree that thinking is good. Dave

  • gonzo marx

    thanks for the Thoughts Dave…i appreciate the extra Perspective

    once i get the chance to put more of this together and do a little digging i will be glad to link out any source material i find pertinant and trustworth…

    it seems we find quite a bit of congruence in many of our Opinions here…and a huge divergence around some other points..

    i woudn’t have it any other Way..

    unfortunately i must be off for work, and don’t have the time at the moment to do justice to your Prose..

    so let’s leave it at this..we do both agree that thinking = good

    and i believe we are both in Agreement that this type of discourse is what is needed to understand and work out many of the difficulties that exist in today’s environment..

    need….more….coffee…

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Wow, they’ve even outsourced comment spam now.

    Dave

  • Eric Olsen

    hilarious Dave, but I had to delete the source – bad precedent

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “it’s not that the company couldn’t expand the business without going to India. It’s that they chose to go to India.”

    Gee, and why would he choose to hire people in India?

    Lower labor costs, maybe?

    Therefore he can afford to lower the costs of his good/service, and this benefits the consumer, correct?

    And the consumer is largely American, correct?

    And the stockholders (assuming this is a public company) do well, right? And what do they do with their money? Maybe invest it in other companies that will end up explanding and hiring more workers? Or maybe spending it and therefore boosting the domestic economy?

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    Yep, that’s the it always works RJ. Companies who care don’t employ Americans – that would be a little too caring – but they will lower their prices to sell back to them.

    They will, right? Sure.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Temple,

    I guess you are a supporter of Pitchfork Pat’s economic philosophy?

  • gonzo marx

    RJ sez..
    *Therefore he can afford to lower the costs of his good/service, and this benefits the consumer, correct?*

    and therin lies the fallacy of offshoring..

    it NEVER leads to reduced prices or ANYTHING that benefits the consumer when something has been moved..

    it DOES lead to lower costs and thus increases the quarterly bottom line which keeps the stock prices where wall street feels they should be..

    whether that is good or bad depends on where you stand…

    me..i’m silly..being an American Citizen..i want the jobs to stay here, the goods to be made here

    your mileage may vary

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>it NEVER leads to reduced prices or ANYTHING that benefits the consumer when something has been moved..<< I’m willing to bet you have zero evidence to support this. And remember, if the choice is between offshoring and keeping the price the same, and raising prices, then not raising prices is a benefit to the consumer even if it comes as a result of offshoring, correct? Dave

  • gonzo marx

    lower prices can lead to a short term benefit…yes..

    long term however?

    let us take the textile industry for example..is is nice to save $1 on buying a shirt at wal-mart…yes

    unless you are one of the thousands of workers in Maine or South Carolina etc..that lost their decent job in the textile factories that are now in china and are working at wal-mart for 40- 60 per cent less than they made in the factory…

    call me silly..but i say BUY AMERICAN…the job you save could be yours..

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>let us take the textile industry for example..is is nice to save $1 on buying a shirt at wal-mart…yes< < Never having bought a piece of clothing at Wal-Mart I wouldn't know. I haven't noticed that their prices are enough lower than other sources for clothing that it makes it worth shopping there for that sort of thing. >>unless you are one of the thousands of workers in Maine or South Carolina etc..that lost their decent job in the textile factories that are now in china and are working at wal-mart for 40- 60 per cent less than they made in the factory…< < If you wanted those textile mills in the US to keep operating the first step was to insure the survival of slavery and then the next would have been to protect child labor. The textile mills priced themselves out of the market, largely because of the work of unions. But those former textile workers and their descendents aren't working in Wal Mart. In South Carolina they're working in specialty furniture factories, the tourist industry and other specialized manufacturing. In Maine tourism, pharmaceutical manufacturing and small businesses abound and there is virtually no unemployment. By getting rid of low-paying jobs in marginal manufacturing industries those states have made the transition to higher paying, more specialized industries and increased both wages and employment. >>call me silly..but i say BUY AMERICAN…the job you save could be yours..<< BTW, you can indeed still buy American. There are lots of companies manufacturing clothing here in the US, they’re just making more unique, more specialized items. Dave

  • gonzo marx

    Dave sez..
    *In Maine tourism, pharmaceutical manufacturing and small businesses abound and there is virtually no unemployment.*

    boy..you gotta come up here and see for yourself..that’s all i can say here…

    no matter what the state’s statistics tell you..let me clue you in..folks have 2 crappy jobs instead of one good one they used to have…and many of the unemployed have fallen off th escreen once their benefits ran out..2 or 3 years ago…

    2 of those “specialty” furniture makers..including one of the oldest from Pennsylvania are now moving their businesses to vietnam, good workers, cheap labor

    as for *By getting rid of low-paying jobs in marginal manufacturing industries those states have made the transition to higher paying, more specialized industries and increased both wages and employment.*

    i still say bullshit..

    there are Makers, Takers and Fakers..

    i know you think poorly of manufacturing jobs…but they DO pay better than service industry work…and give us something to actually export

    think there might be a link to the fall of manufacturing and the rise of the Trade Defecit?

    i do…we don’t make anything to trade anymore

    as for *you can still buy American*…go ahead..spend a day or so..there was just a nice documentary on this one..shop around for 100 items that you will use (not food tho), and then take a peek where it comes from..

    while you thijnk abou tthat, here’s todays figure to chew on..

    the Trade Defecit is growing at just under 2 billion dollars a day…

    7 days a week, 365 a year..

    that is an average of various sources..as usual..i erred on the conservative side

    that is my concern….our jobs and the various Defecits…in our budget, and in our Trade balance

    but i’m the “leftist” eh?

    fine ..c.all me what ya like..but while the Republicans have a totalitarian lock on things for the last 5 years…THEY are who i blame for going form budget surplus to record defecits…as well as failed “fast track” trade agreements that have INCREASED the trade deficit each and ever day

    as for Trade..that failure goes back long before 2000, i just point out that it has gotten much worse and has NOT been even addressed by the Regime

    i can agree to disagree with you , Dave..on how to go about solving some of this..as well as some of the details here and there..

    but for you to not even admit there IS a problem in these areas, and to spout the corporate bullshit about how “everything is gettin gbetter” shows you are about as out of touch with average folks as Bush senior was when he didn’t know the price of a gallon of milk

    good for you…mind if some of the rest of us try and make our positions a bit better?

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>Dave sez..
    *In Maine tourism, pharmaceutical manufacturing and small businesses abound and there is virtually no unemployment.*

    boy..you gotta come up here and see for yourself..that’s all i can say here…< < Gonzo, I own a house in Maine and come up there for at least a month every year and have for almost 40 years. >>no matter what the state’s statistics tell you..let me clue you in..folks have 2 crappy jobs instead of one good one they used to have…and many of the unemployed have fallen off th escreen once their benefits ran out..2 or 3 years ago…< < Not according to BLS statistics. Not only do they show virtually no unemployment, but they also show a workforce deficit for the state, no layoffs, no business closings, and those unemployed who've fallen off the unemployment rolls are few and far between. You may live in a weird pocket of depression in an otherwise booming state. >>i still say bullshit..< < You can say it all you want, but it doesn't make it so. >>there are Makers, Takers and Fakers..

    i know you think poorly of manufacturing jobs…but they DO pay better than service industry work…and give us something to actually export< < I don't think poorly of manufacturing jobs. I think poorly of heavy industry jobs. Not the same thing. I'm all for specialized manufacturing and micro-factories. >>think there might be a link to the fall of manufacturing and the rise of the Trade Defecit?

    i do…we don’t make anything to trade anymore< < The US has ALWAYS been a nation of consumers. These days we trade in information, business leadership, intellectual property and corporate capitalization. The things we produce the most of today are almost impossible to measure in the context of the traditional balance of trade. The whole idea of counting the dollar value of material goods going in and out of the country is totally archaic. We import material goods, but our exports are immaterial - knowledge, personnel, expertise and business itself. When we build a factory in Indonesia, that's exportation of the capital and business expertise that America produces. But that's not figured into the balance of trade, nor are the profits corporations bring back from overseas ventures. But when the products of that factory are brought back into the country they're counted against us in figuring the balance of trade. >>as for *you can still buy American*…go ahead..spend a day or so..there was just a nice documentary on this one..shop around for 100 items that you will use (not food tho), and then take a peek where it comes from..< < I only do this on the one day a week where I speak entirely in anglo saxon vocabulary without any latin, french or other foreign words. >>the Trade Defecit is growing at just under 2 billion dollars a day…

    7 days a week, 365 a year..< < Like I said, the entire model for the trade deficit is archaic and doesn't count the right things or even know how to measure them. >>fine ..c.all me what ya like..but while the Republicans have a totalitarian lock on things for the last 5 years…THEY are who i blame for going form budget surplus to record defecits…as well as failed “fast track” trade agreements that have INCREASED the trade deficit each and ever day< < The trade agreements are theoretically designed to enable the growth of US power in the international economy. The more our international economy grows, the less of it shows on the books of the domestic economy. >>as for Trade..that failure goes back long before 2000, i just point out that it has gotten much worse and has NOT been even addressed by the Regime< < Yes, they're not interested in the trade deficit. They think it's meaningless. >>but for you to not even admit there IS a problem in these areas, and to spout the corporate bullshit about how “everything is gettin gbetter” shows you are about as out of touch with average folks as Bush senior was when he didn’t know the price of a gallon of milk< < I need to see some evidence that things aren't getting better before I change my mind. >>good for you…mind if some of the rest of us try and make our positions a bit better?<< That’s what’s driven our success so far, so go to it. Dave

  • gonzo marx

    Dave sez…
    *Yes, they’re not interested in the trade deficit. They think it’s meaningless.*

    that sums up yer whole ranting..i contend it IS important

    call me simplistic…red ink , black ink

    balance

    just like i did in my own business, and just like i have to do my checkbook

    we will just have to disagree

    as for your coming up to maine..have you looked for work up here in the last 5 years?

    i have only been here for 9 years…living 365….first came up and found a decent job..at lower wages than i would have liked, but paid the bills..in about a week

    left it due to health problems 4 years later…took abotu a week and a half to find another, paid about the same as what i made after leaving the first…but was closer to my specialty in electronics..

    company downsized me out of a job in october ’03….7 months later of constant searching found me another

    that 7 month span gave me quite a bit of time to learn the market up here

    quite the education

    so you enjoy the insulation of being in the tax bracket that can afford a nice summer home just for vacations…

    i know the world looks differently from there…i am happy for you and yours, and am certain you earned it

    but don’t piss down your leg on me and tell me it’s good cuz it’s “trickle down” when you aren;t out there having to deal with the ramifications of yoru economic “theory” while a majority of this countries citizens deal with the reality…

    when you try and get into Enron style accounting of things with statements like
    *Like I said, the entire model for the trade deficit is archaic and doesn’t count the right things or even know how to measure them.*

    i say..red ink..black ink

    the trade deficit and budget deficit numbers i cite are from the government itself…sorry if that screws up your theories…but i tend of think of it like my checkbook..

    hope that helps explain my point of view…your comments certanily helped me understand yours…

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “the Trade Defecit is growing at just under 2 billion dollars a day…

    “7 days a week, 365 a year..

    “that is an average of various sources..as usual..i erred on the conservative side”

    Gee, and I wonder how much of that deficit is oil?

    And yet, we shouldn’t drill in ANRW, or in the Gulf of Mexico, right?

  • gonzo marx

    RJ sez..
    *And yet, we shouldn’t drill in ANRW, or in the Gulf of Mexico, right?*

    ANWR is a National Park…and thus a special case…don’t ya think?

    if you go back and read the discussion between Dave Nalle and myself in the Thread on that topic..you swill see that he and i came to various agreements how it could be feasible there…

    the Gulf of Mexico is another case in point..and we drill there already…add to that the fact that you will NOT be able to find ANY time that i ever said anything about it anywhere…

    now run along and do your Homework before ya try and get into it with me…

    i’m more than happy to discuss the Facts and Issues with you RJ…but this kind of bullshit dittohead attack ain’t gonna fly…

    i am mildly flattered that you feel so threatened by my little rantings that you would make the feeble attempt…

    now run along and go back to pulling the wings off flies, or whatever it is you do to relax….

    that was a joke, BTW…no need to get yer panties in a twist…

    {8^P~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    A lot of the trade deficit is with Red China. But if we put any sort of import barriers in place, we run the risk of them dropping the dollar and their American holdings ASAP, which would have a massive negative impact on our economy.

    And if we institute tarriffs on their products? The WTO will hit us with a huge fine.

    So, our options re: Red China are limited.

    But there is a context to this situation.

    The Red Chinese export cheap shit, like plastic toys and cotton T-shirts. It is no longer profitable for us to manufacture these products domestically, and the Red Chinese have an enormous virtual slave-labor force to produce these items.

    So we buy their cheap shit in order to save a buck or two. Fair enough.

    But we sell products overseas as well. But Red China, despite its 1.3 billion population, does not have a large enough middle class to buy a large enough number of American products to offset the trade imbalance.

    But, if they continue to thrive economically, they probably will in the relatively near future.

    And THEN we can sell those NON-CHEAP products to their consumers, and narrow the trade gap.

    It’s a waiting game. Be patient.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “now run along and go back to pulling the wings off flies, or whatever it is you do to relax….”

    Cute, but my question remains unanswered…

  • gonzo marx

    OMG…except for one HUGE and glaring Omission to your little fairy tale

    we don’t MANUFACTURE ANY goods to sell them…

    and what little we do..they can make for themselves..

    so, what can we sell them…movies?…software to run on those IBM computers they will be building

    nope..their lack of protection for INtellectual Property laws means that as soon as they buy ONE COPY of ANTYHING..they will reproduce it by the millions and we will see NOTHING

    now go back to your history class RJ…and study China..

    at NO TIME in written history did ANYONE out-patient, or out wait the Middle Kingdoms

    the longer it goes on and the more of our National Debt their Central Bank owns

    how long before they call the Mortgage due?

    remember how the “patience” game work out for the British with Hong Kong

    i am hoping we can avoid the cosmic Irony of winning the war against Russian Communism…only to lose by being bought and paid for by the Heirs of Mao

    “ponder that upon the Tree of Woe”
    Thulsa Doom

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>call me simplistic…red ink , black ink

    balance

    just like i did in my own business, and just like i have to do my checkbook< < Yes, but the national balance of trade isn't representative of a single business. You can't compare our entire national economic structure to balancing your checkbook, good lord. If it were THAT simple we could solve all our problems in a year. The balance of trade represents millions of business transactions, from buying a pair of socks at Wal Mart to buying an sheet metal plant in Indonesia. There are so many transactions happening some in the country, some out of the country, and many in a vague commercial limbo, that you can't simplify it and you can't pin it down, and increasingly the relatively crude numbers we put together and call a trade deficit just don't make any sense. >>as for your coming up to maine..have you looked for work up here in the last 5 years?< < No, I take work with me wherever I go. But Maine does have unemployment right at the minimum possibl level, at around 4.1%. Unemployment can't get much lower than that. >>company downsized me out of a job in october ’03….7 months later of constant searching found me another< < According to the BLS there were no layoffs or downsizings in Maine in 2003 and the average time to find a new job was less than a month. But I guess they can't track everything. >>so you enjoy the insulation of being in the tax bracket that can afford a nice summer home just for vacations…< < Only because we rent it out enough to pay the incredibly insane property taxes and maintenance expenses. >>but don’t piss down your leg on me and tell me it’s good cuz it’s “trickle down” when you aren;t out there having to deal with the ramifications of yoru economic “theory” while a majority of this countries citizens deal with the reality…< < But I did do my time dealing with the reality and I don't think the basic dynamics have changed in the 20 years since I was earning $600 a month plus another $300 or so from a second part time job. >>the trade deficit and budget deficit numbers i cite are from the government itself…sorry if that screws up your theories…but i tend of think of it like my checkbook..<< If the government had any idea what it was doing would we have these bigass budget deficits? Dave

  • gonzo marx

    Dave sez..
    *Yes, but the national balance of trade isn’t representative of a single business. You can’t compare our entire national economic structure to balancing your checkbook, good lord. If it were THAT simple we could solve all our problems in a year.*

    yes Dave…i CAN boil it down to that..it’s merely a matter of SCALE…the difference between a single transaction and a billion such transactions are merely numbers..

    any chimp with a calculator can add the digits…now imagnie..dare i say it..computers!!

    the problem is made more complex by trick bookkeeping etc..(can you say Enron and Worldcomm..i knew ya could)

    the stock market seems to have no difficulty keeping track of thesethings with decent accuracy fo rtheir predictions and such…actuarial tables still work, no matter the size of the Variables

    Dave sez..
    *According to the BLS there were no layoffs or downsizings in Maine in 2003 and the average time to find a new job was less than a month. But I guess they can’t track everything.*

    my personal situation was working as a technician for an arcade chain…the economy forced them to close half their stores in the New ngland area…they went form 3 technicians to two..i was the newest person…

    why did it take so long for me to find other work…simple..the ONLY work available in my field was temp agency stuff that paid LESS than i was getting from collecting my unemployment insurance…so i taught some private gung fu lessons and other odd cash jobs to make up the difference until i found the job i have now

    since so much of th estate’s industry has either closed it’s doors or been offshored, many skilled workers are now holding one or two jobs in the “service” industry that pay a fraction of what they were making in Industrial carreers

    Dave sez..
    *But I did do my time dealing with the reality and I don’t think the basic dynamics have changed in the 20 years*

    ya should have put the period after “think”

    things have changed quite a lot in the last 20 years..and you KNOW it..how many times have we discussed Industry leaving
    this country..20 years ago you could make a good living for your family working for a local Company actually MAKING something…not any more..those jobs in the “heavy industry” sector that you have such disdain for have been offshored and outsourced..

    but you haven’t been in that market for 20 years…so what does it matter to you, eh?

    Dave sez..
    *If the government had any idea what it was doing would we have these bigass budget deficits?*

    on that statement we have total Agreement..

    the big difference is that it is YOUR GOP that is running the government so poorly

    and that is what i am ranting about

    so we agree that they are doing quite the shitty job of it

    nice…

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>yes Dave…i CAN boil it down to that..it’s merely a matter of SCALE…the difference between a single transaction and a billion such transactions are merely numbers..

    any chimp with a calculator can add the digits…now imagnie..dare i say it..computers!!

    the problem is made more complex by trick bookkeeping etc..(can you say Enron and Worldcomm..i knew ya could)< < No No No, one thousand times NO! The trade deficit results from an attempt to measure the balance of trade in and out of the country when to modern corporations national boundries simply have no meaning at all. How do you calculte the impact on the balance of trade of the dealings of a corporation with factories in 20 countries selling product to retail outlets all over the world? How do you figure the trade value of companies who trade in other companies, or in purely paper assets or in information? These are larger and larger parts of our economy. Just like the old industry which is increasingly irrelevant in the modern world, the idea of a balance of trade or being able to measure it is just meaningless. If we were still just a country which shipped out agriculture and imported manufactured goods, then we could believe in the trade deficit. But our economy isn't anything like that anymore. >>the stock market seems to have no difficulty keeping track of thesethings with decent accuracy fo rtheir predictions and such…actuarial tables still work, no matter the size of the Variables< < All the stock market does is track the buying and selling of stock. That's nothing compared to the complexity of a multinational economy. >>my personal situation was working as a technician for an arcade chain…< < Now there's the definition of a doomed job. >>why did it take so long for me to find other work…simple..the ONLY work available in my field was temp agency stuff that paid LESS than i was getting from collecting my unemployment insurance…so i taught some private gung fu lessons and other odd cash jobs to make up the difference until i found the job i have now< < So you chose to be unemployed rather than take a pay cut. It's a choice a lot of people make and not unreasoanble. Not everyone has the confidence or luxury to do it, of course. >>since so much of th estate’s industry has either closed it’s doors or been offshored, many skilled workers are now holding one or two jobs in the “service” industry that pay a fraction of what they were making in Industrial carreers< < Clearly you live in a different part of Maine from where we spend our time. But my impression is that even 30 years ago Portland and Augusta were pretty depressed areas, and they doesn't seem noticably worse today. >>hings have changed quite a lot in the last 20 years..and you KNOW it..how many times have we discussed Industry leaving
    this country..20 years ago you could make a good living for your family working for a local Company actually MAKING something…not any more..those jobs in the “heavy industry” sector that you have such disdain for have been offshored and outsourced..< < You don't have to make something in a factory to make a good living. There are plenty of jobs in micro-factories, specialized craft industries and entirely new higher tech industries to employ the people who used to work in heavy industry. Just because the structure of our economy changes that doesn't mean the overall result is negative. >>but you haven’t been in that market for 20 years…so what does it matter to you, eh?<< But I do care, Gonzo. I’m a regular care bear. Plus I have kids who’ll have to get jobs eventually, and I know plenty of people who haven’t exactly found employment nirvana yet. Dave

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    >>If the government had any idea what it was doing would we have these bigass budget deficits?

    And yet you are naive enough to trust government VNR promotions? (not information, PR).

    I’m editing music reviews. Why are you here?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Temp, when did I ever say I trusted government VNR promotions? I don’t trust self-serving press releases from private companies either. I just don’t see a difference between self-serving shillery from a government department and from a private company.

    It’s not that I’m naive enough to trust the VNRs, it’s that I’m cynical enough not to care.

    Dave

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    >>my personal situation was working as a technician for an arcade chain…<< Now there’s the definition of a doomed job. LOL! Try 7-11…

  • gonzo marx

    really..so $20 bucks an hour, benefits and a flexible schedule in your first year are a doomed job?

    it was meant for what it was..something temporary and convenient…i ALWAYS have work on the side

    design, maintenence and repair of hi-def home theatre systems, teaching gung fu..getting paid to beta test software

    currently i repair and give tech support to various telecom’s (AT&T,QWEST,Level3 and some others) concerning thier line management systems and line locating devices…

    ya know what..it pays about the same..the benefits are a little better, and i don’t get to drive all over new england on the company’s dime…much less it being as much fun as designing and administrating the gaming LAN’s or servers…

    but my mortgage gets paid

    now, when you move out of mommy’s basement…we will talk again…k?

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Thank me the next time your collect unemployment “insurance”…

    Cuz, you know, I’ve never gone there. Because I have always worked, and paid my taxes…

  • gonzo marx

    heh..so you are trying to imply that i have not?

    i have worked since i was 13 years old..as well as served 4 years in the military..i’m 43 now, in the interest of full disclosure..and did own my own business for 9 years

    for 6 weeks out of the 7 months i was looking for my next full time job, i did collect on the maine state insurance i paid into for 7 years(in this state…not counting the 12 in NJ after the military)…then found stuff to pay the bills…

    so spare me your bullshit , boy…i feel no guilt collecting a small fraction of what i put in…and have long since repaid back into the system…

    now, tell your mommy good night and go back to abusing yourself whiel turnign the sticky pages of that Victoria’s Secret catalogue…someday you will be able to reach the counter and buy the mags with the totally nude pictures in them…

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>really..so $20 bucks an hour, benefits and a flexible schedule in your first year are a doomed job?<< Had the Playstation been invented prior to the time you took this job? If so, then it was a doomed job. Dave

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    gonzo – who needs mags when you have the internet!

  • gonzo marx

    Dave sez..
    *Had the Playstation been invented prior to the time you took this job? If so, then it was a doomed job.*

    not really Dave…remember when i said i had owned my own business for 8 years?

    it was an arcade on the Jersey shore..

    there is more to the business than just video games…and i’m not going to get into a lesson on how it works

    the closing of those stores was a decision by the Owner of the chain, due to many factors..completely understandable…but that business isn’t “doomed” by quite a ways

    as to your Opinion on doomed industry and not being able to track the “impact” of a trade eficit..well..tracking the impact is one thing

    my point is we can know what the DOLLAR value fo that deficit is…how much comes in, how much goes out..simple equation not matter how many are in the Variable..that’s all..

    we are going to have to just not agree on this one..i side with American jobs and the needs of the citizens

    i won’t even speculate why you take the positions you do…

    Excelsior!

    as i had said..i took it for it’s convenience at the time

  • http://xraystyle.blogspot.com Bryan McKay

    The problem with outsourcing isn’t simply its effect on the American economy – this is a rather one-sided view of the issue. What we need to be looking at is the ultimate effect that this has on the economy of the nations America is outsourcing to.

    India, for example, receives many outsourcing jobs from America, in fields as disparate as manufacturing and labor, technical and IT support, and computer programming. What this does, however, is make their jobs dependent on the American economy. If the company outsourcing jobs to India goes bankrupt, then all the Indians working for this American company are out of a job too.

    Much of the world, but particularly America, is bent on this idea of a “global economy” when often it is better for a country to retain a level of economic independence. It is extraordinarily important for a country have the ability to be mainly self-sufficient. This may sound like an isolationist policy, but understand that I’m not advocating an entirely hands-off role. To see what can happen when a country loses this self-sufficiency, look at Stephanie Black’s extraordinary documentary, Life and Debt.

    I don’t believe anyone who is in favor of outsourcing with the argument that it is good for the economy of the insourcing nation. If they only wanted to help build the other nation’s economy, maybe they could be working towards dismantling – or at least restructuring – the IMF and the World Bank. Outsourcing is just a form of neo-colonization that won’t benefit either the outsourcer or the insourcer in the long run.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Dave sez..
    *Had the Playstation been invented prior to the time you took this job? If so, then it was a doomed job.*

    not really Dave…remember when i said i had owned my own business for 8 years?

    it was an arcade on the Jersey shore..< < Damn, how Norman Rockwell. >>there is more to the business than just video games…and i’m not going to get into a lesson on how it works< < Of course there's more, there's always the drug dealing and the money laundering... ....or were the arcades of my youth not typical? >>my point is we can know what the DOLLAR value fo that deficit is…how much comes in, how much goes out..simple equation not matter how many are in the Variable..that’s all..< < No we can't know. The diversity and globalization of industries has made it impossible to track all of the financial exchanges which used to make up the balance of trade. It's not just how much goes out and how much comes in anymore - or if you do track that info, it's not a complete picture of the balance of trade by a long shot. >>we are going to have to just not agree on this one..i side with American jobs and the needs of the citizens< < So do I, Gonzo. >>i won’t even speculate why you take the positions you do…<< I can help with that. I think that the best way to create jobs and keep people working is to develop a modern, growing economy, not to try to patch the hulls of the sinking ship of a late industrial age economy. Dave

  • gonzo marx

    well Dave…thank you for clearly delineating where we stand in future Discussion with this little statement..

    Dave sez..
    *Of course there’s more, there’s always the drug dealing and the money laundering…

    ….or were the arcades of my youth not typical?*

    let us just say i am not “typical” in this case….whether it was in my time as “outlaw” or now as a “citizen”..i refuse to be part of ANY “gang”…biker, underground or political Party

    i’m funny like that…

    that you would even make the implications you have with that statement bothers me slightly and now defines our Discourse

    for the sake fo Clarity on this one subject..the arcade business makes most fo it’s money on the “ticket games” folks spend $10 on getting $2 worth of tickets to redeem for “prizes” that are bought wholesale for less than they appear…what is being sold is the “entertainment” value of playing the games..the prize is an added bonus to the customer to encourage them to come back, and to serve as a reminder of how much “fun” they had or souveneir purposes..

    as far as the other types of games…video games need to give the Plyer what they cannot get at home on their “playstations”..and NO simulator can touch the feel of a real pinball machine to afficianado’s..

    ti is up to the Operator to keep his “attractions” current and exiting to the Players…hence how many of the “store” type locations are adding LAN’s to their attractions

    thus endeth the Lesson on the arcade business…

    Dave sez..
    * not to try to patch the hulls of the sinking ship of a late industrial age economy.*

    this is one of those points where we will just have to disagree..

    i still think it is Important to not only our Economy , but to our National security to MAKE things in this country, to DO research and development of new technologies and industries, control resources and products within our own borders…

    if we don’t make steel, then where do we get it in case of National Emergency if we need to build tanks?

    if we don’t build the best in electronics and computers..where is our edge in aerospace and other defense capabilities?

    doesn’t it bother you that the next Marine One helicopter the President will fly in will NOT be made by an american company?…just one example of what i mean

    i fully understand that there needs to be a middle ground between Protectionism and complete Offshoring…but i contend that what improves the bottom line for multi-national companies and foreign Interests is NOT neccesarily in our National Interest…

    nuff said

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Me: “Because I have always worked”

    Beaker Harpo: “so you are trying to imply that i have not?”

    Beaker Harpo: “the ONLY work available in my field was temp agency stuff that paid LESS than i was getting from collecting my unemployment insurance

    Not implying. Pointing it out…