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Oprah and Demi Say You Must Serve the Leader

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In a video which could have come straight out of Leni Riefenstahl's cutting room, Oprah (producer) and Demi (director) have brought us a bit of propaganda in support of their pal, President Obama, which raises a lot of troubling questions in the process of laying out a generally positive message encouraging volunteerism. In a montage of statements from minor, but politically committed celebrities, the video runs through a litany of progressive causes which we can now safely volunteer our time to support, now that president Obama is here to lead us. Some of the messages are peculiar, a few are humorous, but the repeated message of pledging ourselves to service builds until at the culminating moment one of the celebrities urges us to pledge ourselves to Obama — not to a cause, but personally to the leader, the essence of the cult of personality which drives totalitarianism.


You know the propaganda is coming when the video starts out with a variation of the disturbing Shepard Fairey "Change" poster, which is so eerily reminiscent of soviet-era propaganda posters. From there the celebrities quickly run through more than a dozen causes, some laudable and some questionable, ending with the command to pledge our loyalty to their leader.

For me, a couple of things stood out as interesting. The first was the overall message. I find it surprising that the left has finally awakened to the idea of volunteerism, something which conservatives have been committed to for decades. But it makes me wonder, based on studies which show that most volunteerism comes from people in the middle class and in conservative parts of the country, whether these celebrities are planning to take time out of their heavy schedules to volunteer, or if they just want us to volunteer. Do they plan to serve Obama with their time and money, or do they just want to make sure that we pledge our much more limited resources? Volunteerism is great, but I find being preached to by these recent converts to be a bit patronizing.

One of the more amusing pledges was when Cameron Diaz announced her plan to meet her neighbors and greet them with a smile. This might require considerable exercise and a certain amount of risk given the size of the estates in the area of the Hollywood Hills where she currently lives, as well as all the security which her neighbors have. Or maybe she already met them and wasn't pleased with the experience — maybe they didn't smile back at her — since she is currently planning to move to a remote estate in the English countryside, about as far away from her current neighbors as she can get.

Even more intriguing is the pledge made by a series of celebrities to "work to make good the 200 year old promise to end slavery…to the abolition of 21st century slavery…to free one million people from slavery in the next 5 years." This comes near the culminating point of the video and includes its most significant participants, like Ashton and Demi. What's interesting about this is that the people who pledged to end slavery 200 years ago hold almost no political beliefs (besides ending slavery) in common with the participants in this video, and were ultimately the founders of a political party which these Hollywood leftists have campaigned relentlessly to smear, defame and destroy. More importantly, it raises the question of exactly how they plan to free these slaves. I'm all for it, but I realize that it is likely to require massive use of the military and what might amount to a full-on war with the primary institution supporting the continued existence of slavery, Islam. I don't think they get this. Their understanding seems to be at the level of "slavery is baaaaad" with no greater knowledge of the realities of the issue. Do they realize that only weeks after their last protest against the Iraq war they are now advocating all-out holy war against Islam?

While viewing the video you have to make sure to check out Anthony Kiedis (thanks to teen daughter for identifying him) kissing his biceps (which he seems to have named Barack and Obama) while pledging his eternal loyalty to Obama at around 3:19. That message is then echoed in a less bizarre way when Demi says, "I pledge to be a servant to our president…" at the culmination of the video, suggesting that the real goal here is not to encourage volunteerism, but to encourage loyalty to the leader, a message which I find very disturbing, coming from a video presented in such a blatantly propagandistic style.

It appears the video got to me a bit late. On checking out USAService.org, I learned that the volunteer opportunities they were mainly promoting were all connected to the effort to make MLK day a day of service for the nation. Apparently their plans for volunteerism don't extend beyond last week, so I'm out of luck, having stumbled on it only just today. I actually think promoting volunteerism on MLK day is a pretty good idea, but I think they're missing the point entirely by not making an effort to put more emphasis on community organizations which help people and can use volunteers every day of the year. But perhaps the more politically conservative character of the most prominent volunteer organizations, many of which work with or through churches, is something they feel uncomfortable with.

Do I have a point here? Yes, mainly that everyone ought to see this video and judge its sincerity for themselves. I find it condescending, insincere and somewhat ominous, but the basic message on volunteerism is still a good one. I just wish it weren't presented to me in terms which remind me so much of the twisted sloganeering of George Orwell's 1984, accompanied by a reminder that a lot of Hollywood celebrities (David Arquette in particular) give being an idiot a bad name.

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About Dave Nalle

  • Doug Hunter

    The video was creepy.

  • Melek

    Dave,

    Right on target! I was just mentioning this to a friend today. I take issue that “NOW” that Obama is our president, & “he’s not alone” … suddenly, we must become responsible and do our civic duty and volunteer and be “better citizens” … for years I’m sure, just like you stated, many of us have been doing our part, for whatever reason, either as a moral responsibility or a “sharing our blessings”, or whatever our motivation to do so, we help those less fortunate in whatever way we can … but the doing comes from within ourselves, not as a result of someone asking us to do it or mandating so … there lies the difference between genuine and phony.

    I wish you well :) Melek

    “It stands to reason that where there’s sacrifice, there’s someone collecting sacrificial offerings. Where there’s service, there’s someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master.: ~ Ayn Rand

  • Arch Conservative

    Gee so many American families are worrying about finding jobs and feeding their families when all they have to do is two pledge to smile more, flush only after a duece and pledge allegiance to the funkadelic.

    Not a single person in this video is faced with the very real problems the average American deals with on a day to day basis.

    If they really wanted to do something that would help normal people they’d pledge to climb down off their high horse, quit being worthless hypocritical condesending assholes, and OD on their favorite Hollywood party favor so the rest of us would never have to listen to their sanctimonious bullshit again.

  • anon

    funny how you rant for 2 pages with your silly, misguided and misinformed commentary only to end that we should watch for ourselves and decide. the video IS cheesy and doesn’t really work, and that format is tired and has been done to much greater success and effect, but trying to paint the president as a rising dictator less than a week into his term is laughable and reckless. As for Islam, I urge you to educate yourself before trying to speak to an audience about something you clearly no nothing about

  • Brunelleschi (c)

    The economy is in the dumps and people are trying to be optimistic and positive, and you anti-Americans are just whining about it!

    If you don’t want to be in America anymore, you know what the righties always said about that…

    “Love it or…..”

    I like it now that the patriots are on the left and the haters that need to leave are on the right. More irony.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    While it seems a bit silly, and yes, a bit creepy, I find it neither offensive nor ominous.

    The “ominous” line that Dave cites says (if memory serves) that they support “their president and mankind.” There was no particular emphasis on supporting or following a leader.

    For the most part, I believe the message was aimed at those generally far younger than most of us posting here at BC. It is younger folk who primarily inhabit the hallowed cyber halls of YouTube, Facebook and the like.

    It is younger people – not particularly Republicans or Democrats – who have little history of volunteerism. (Of course Dave had to get his little jab in with his claim that Reps volunteer and Dems don’t. In Dave’s eyes, the Reps own the corner on the White Hat market while to read his rantings, it is Dems who are responsible for pretty much everything that’s wrong with the world. I guess it makes him feel superior.)

    This is the first election in memory that saw a heightened involvement of the under 30 bunch. I see this simply as an effort to encourage them to not drop the ball now.

    If you check out the various web sites put in place by Obama’s organization, you will see that there is a concerted effort to not only raise awareness of the need for volunteerism, but also providing information on the sites, through meetings and other sources for ongoing and extended opportunities to volunteer in communities all over the country.

    There were far more substantial and highly disturbing issues during the Bush years that forbode the advent of “Big Brother” than this innocuous little video.

    B

  • Lumpy

    Bruno. thanks for reminding me how utterly humorless and self-righteous the left is

  • Hope and Change?

    BREAKING NEWS….
    His majesty King Obama has declared, by executive order, that the Pledge of Allegiance shall immediately be changed to the following:

    I pledge allegiance to King Barry the exalted ruler of the United States of America,
    and to his left wing misguided policies that will destroy the Republic where we now stand:
    One nation drowning in debt and high taxes, divisible, and never to listen to Rish Limbaugh again.

    King Obama – Adding hope and change to every bomb the US drops on innocent civilians!

  • Hope and Change?

    How many of these left wing loons have third world illegal alien housekeepers and gardners?……..um….er….duh….you know….ALL OF THEM!

  • Clavos

    …third world illegal alien housekeepers and gardners…

    You mean there’s another kind??

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    H&C, Here I fixed it fer ya.

    I pledge allegiance to King Barry the exalted ruler of the United States of America, and to His righteous left wing misguided policies that will destroy make perfect the heretofore disdained Republic of which no right thinking person was proud and where we now stand: One nation drowning in debt and high taxes, divisible, and never to listen to Rish Limbaugh again.

    Happy to help!

    PS Who is Rish Limbaugh?

    Dan(Miller)

  • netstarman

    remember when it was VOTE OR DIE? now its Give your praise to the new almighty Leader? I thought communism was in other country’s backyards.

  • netstarman

    Maybe the left wingers need to get a life and understand that 8 years of bashing the Bush’s presidency now its time for the Proper Right side republicans to start getting on the Barrack ” OBEY” Hussein Obama. Get used to it leftists liberals its our turn now. And by the way theres plenty of people that won’t OBEY the new leader because Hollywood says so. Other small minded people might listen to them because they can’t function on there own and stand on there own two feet .

  • Jordan Richardson

    This addiction to every nook and cranny of political discourse is really making a lot of you, right or left, incredibly paranoid.

    BTW, Demi can tell me to do whatever the hell she wants…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Voice of reason, Jordan. Me too. I’d switch the party if she asked me too.

    What’s wrong with these guys? Are they not of flesh and blood?

  • Jordan Richardson

    I’d throw my own mother down the stairs if Demi even hinted at it.

  • Clavos

    PS Who is Rish Limbaugh?

    Rush’s evil twin. Rush keeps in the cellar of his palm Beach home…

  • Clavos

    …keeps him

  • Mark Eden

    Rush is the evil one of the twins, Clavos.

  • Cindy D

    Dave,

    The video looks pretty harmless to me.

    I like the Obay poster you have there though. I just don’t think it applies here.

  • zingzing

    the same guy who designed that poster is the guy who made the andre the giant “obey” stickers/posters/graffiti you see all around. and now that poster is up in the national portrait gallery. well, except for the “obey” part.

    cool, huh?

  • Cindy D

    “Obey”

    Anyway, they look like they’re trying to inspire people. That’s all I get out of it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    #16: That’d be going too far, Jordan. But backing Mr. Nalle once in a while when he’s being attacked by a bunch of liberal hound dogs, I’d do it in a minute if Demi asked me!

  • Cindy D

    very cool!

  • Cindy D

    lol on the whole Rish/Rush thing. funny.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Clavos and Mark are both wrong. The whole ‘Rish’ thing got started when Limbaugh was arrested for importing little packages of joy into the blessed United of America of States without going through the usual channels of them being legal. Upon arrival at the police station, the arresting officer asked him to state his name for the tape, and Rush still had some of whatever it was he’d recently been partaking of up his nose. He sneezed while answering.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    While it seems a bit silly, and yes, a bit creepy, I find it neither offensive nor ominous.

    I think that on the whole it’s relatively harmless, but there are bits in there which are offensive and the whole Obama poster was and remains ominous in its echoes of classic propaganda.

    The “ominous” line that Dave cites says (if memory serves) that they support “their president and mankind.” There was no particular emphasis on supporting or following a leader.

    There are actually two separate lines which specifically urge pledging allegiance not to the flag or the nation or the constitution but to Obama the individual. That’s political idolatry and the cult of personality IMO.

    For the most part, I believe the message was aimed at those generally far younger than most of us posting here at BC. It is younger folk who primarily inhabit the hallowed cyber halls of YouTube, Facebook and the like.

    Aren’t those young and easily swayed people the ones we most need to be concerned about?

    Dave had to get his little jab in with his claim that Reps volunteer and Dems don’t. In Dave’s eyes, the Reps own the corner on the White Hat market while to read his rantings, it is Dems who are responsible for pretty much everything that’s wrong with the world.

    For the record I didn’t refer to either political party in that context. And as I do point out at the end, the general push for volunteerism is a good thing. I just don’t like some of the trappings it comes with here.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    dave: “the whole Obama poster was and remains ominous in its echoes of classic propaganda.”

    say what? are you talking about the obey poster? you… what? really? you can’t be serious.

    “That’s political idolatry and the cult of personality IMO.”

    we are talking about OPRAH!

    “Aren’t those young and easily swayed people the ones we most need to be concerned about?”

    heaven forbid they should volunteer and do good for society. heaven forbid.

    “I just don’t like some of the trappings it comes with here.”

    fair enough, but remember the source of those trappings: OPRAH!

    it’s OPRAH!

    OPRAH!

    obviously, it’s nothing to take seriously, unless you’re a 40+ year old women.

    no offense to the 40+ year old women… unless you’re oprah acolytes. then you can fuck right off. not really. i don’t care.

    don’t be scared of oprah, dave. she’s just a mega-rich kitten.

  • Cindy D

    “I pledge to be a servant to our president and all mankind. Because together we can, together we are, and together we will be the change that we seek.”

    I only see this one thing here Dave. It’s strange language.

  • Cindy D

    Just the servant thing.

  • Cindy D

    The thing though is Obama didn’t make the video. And in a totalitarian society no criticism is allowed. seems like the worst think would be a “rock star” adored president with his fans recycling more.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    The right wing “full of shit” gang is here in full force.

    Let’s see. Which is more worrisome? People encouraging volunteerism, or a president faced with the 9/11 attacks urges us to “go shopping?”

    The anti-Bush attacks didn’t come until it was obvious he deserved them. As Obama has been in office less than a week it seems a bit stupid, actually extremely stupid – knuckle dragging, drooling stupid – to be casting aspersions against him.

    What pisses all of you off is the apparent idolatry of Obama which really has nothing to do with him. He has warned repeatedly that he is not going to magically right all the wrongs. He has reiterated ad nauseam (which most of you obviously have chosen to ignore) that the shit basket dropped in his lap will not get cleaned up anytime soon. However, you all accuse him of the sins of his fans.

    As to the video. As I said above, yeah it’s a bit silly and creepy in its way, but really pretty innocuous stuff. I don’t think our young ones will be marching lock step in the streets anytime soon.

    Oh, and excuse me Dave. You did NOT refer to Dems or Reps as regards volunteerism. Rather, you used the terms “left” and “conservatives.” The effect is the same.

    B

  • Clavos

    EVERYBODY on both sides of the argument is losing sight of the fact that both Oprah and Demi bring to the table nothing more than fame and personal fortune. Neither is an expert on anything beyond showbiz; their opinions about ANYTHING outside of performing are essentially worthless. Why do any of you even care what they have to say?

    Talk about molehills…

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Let me also point out that nowhere in the article am I critical of Obama. Clearly none of this is his fault. He’s just riding the wave that others are the driving force behind.

    Note that it’s Oprah and Demi in the title, not Obama.

    Dave

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Clav,

    You say: “EVERYBODY on both sides of the argument is losing sight of the fact that both Oprah and Demi bring to the table nothing more than fame and personal fortune.”

    What do you do for a living? (I think I know, but the question is rhetorical.) Is your profession, or how you happen to make a living the ONLY area in which you have any knowledge? If so, why do you write articles and comment here? Why do you assume that Oprah or Demi or any celebrities know nothing of value beyond their particular crafts?

    Few of us here at BC are by profession politicians or even journalists. Why then should any of us presume that our opinions have any value to anyone? What special wisdom do any of us have to offer? Should we rather keep our opinions to ourselves?

    Actually, many people who work in the arts have a perspective on life and society in general that others may not. To assume that they are all mindless buffoons is hardly fair nor accurate.

    B

  • Brunelleschi

    #7 Lumpy-

    WTF are you talking about?

  • Les Slater

    After reading the article and all the comments, the only one making any substantial point is Arch in #3:

    “Not a single person in this video is faced with the very real problems the average American deals with on a day to day basis.”

    Not only is this true but some in the video lie when they say all of us are in this together. And that just happens to be a major theme of Obama’s. Can’t put all the blame on Oprah and Demi.

  • Clavos

    B-tone,

    Why do you assume that Oprah or Demi or any celebrities know nothing of value beyond their particular crafts?

    Watch ‘em on the late night shows, or on some of those celebrity events like the Oscars. Not many of them are particularly articulate, let alone intelligent sounding. It doesn’t take a lot of brains to be an actor.

    In most cases, the only reason they’re given opportunities to proclaim their opinions about anything publicly is because the public adulates them, they’re famous; they sell a lot of ad airtime.

    It’s ludicrous, the extent to which people who have no cred whatever are able to expound in front of the cameras. Do you really think someone as full of bile as Rosie O’donnel has anything worthwhile to say about anything other than showbiz? have you ever really listened to her?

    How about Sean Penn? You think he’s intelligent and knowledgeable about international affairs? Yet, he goes to Venezuela, sucks up to Hugo Chavez, and the whole world thinks better of Chavez as a result, because Sean Penn says he’s a great guy.

    Give me a break. They’re celebrities, not leaders, or even pundits, and most of them are as shallow as a human can be and still function.

  • Clavos

    One last point, B-tone. I agree that the Hollywood types have every right in the world to express their opinions, that’s not my point.

    What I don’t understand is why anyone pays any attention to them.

  • Les Slater

    Oh, BTW, the ruling class and their government are seriously discussing nationalizing the banks.

  • paulwhoispablo

    40 Les Slater:

    I wonder if you would care to pontificate on exactly who you would refer to as the ruling class.

    My own opinion that at the top level, that is those that really call the shots; and not only own most of the resources of the planet, but actually print money out of thin air are as follows.

    The Bilderberg Group, the Rothschild family, the Rockefeller clan, and some of their billionaire subordinates such as Gates, Buffet, Soros, and their ilk.

    I also purport that the main force for making policy both corporate and governmental is the CFR which was created at the behest of JP Morgan in conjunction with the Royal Insitute of International Relations, now known as Chatham House.

    Who would you describe them as being Les? The question is not rhetorical.

  • paulwhoispablo

    Oh I almost forgot Les, the author of the NY Times article you linked to is David E Sanger, propagandist for the New York Times, and White House Correspondent for the New York Times, and a member in good standing of the Council on Foreign Relations.

    As you might have noted Mr. Sanger came as close to promoting what he was writing about as you can, and still call yourself a journalist, as opposed to a political commenter.

    I also found it rather amusing instead of using the proper political phraseology which is called Socialism, he prefers the banal expression of Nationalization.

    Nalle would have you believe that many of these same ilk, ie CFR members, or Bilderbergers are not socialists, when nothing could be further from the truth. As in the case of Gordon Brown and Tony Blair both to this day members of the Fabian Socialist movement in Great Britain, and both having attended Bilderberg Group meetings in the past. In point of fact Tony Blair denied in public before Parliment that he had attented a Bilderberg Group meeting, was known to have attended.

  • Les Slater

    “…the Rothschild family, the Rockefeller clan, and some of their billionaire subordinates such as Gates, Buffet, Soros, and their ilk.”

    I don’t really care what clubs they belong to but you named a few of the culprits and roughly their pecking order too.

    “As you might have noted Mr. Sanger came as close to promoting what he was writing about as you can, and still call yourself a journalist, as opposed to a political commenter.”

    Of course.

    “…and a member in good standing of the Council on Foreign Relations.”

    Again, I’m not impressed, nor care, about their club memberships, but it just goes to show that this ruling class, with their hirelings, is indeed discussing nationalizing the banks.

    Socialism? Please, this is the capitalist ruling class.

  • Jordan Richardson

    What I don’t understand is why anyone pays any attention to them.

    Because they’re on TV.

  • Jordan Richardson

    How about Sean Penn? You think he’s intelligent and knowledgeable about international affairs? Yet, he goes to Venezuela, sucks up to Hugo Chavez, and the whole world thinks better of Chavez as a result, because Sean Penn says he’s a great guy.

    The “whole world” thinks better of Chavez because of Sean Penn? Cool! Now if only that’d work for gay marriage because of Milk

  • Jordan Richardson

    By the way, Clav, Sean Penn is immensely more articulate and learned on political issues than many actual politicians are. You might like to make a villain out of the guy because of his thoughts on Chavez, but that has nothing to do with a lack of “intelligence” about “international affairs” and everything to do with the fact that he has a position you don’t agree with. Same with Rosie.

    Just for a bit of clarification, the whole Chavez/Penn thing began when Chavez read a letter that Penn had put in the Washington Post pertaining to the War in Iraq and Mr. Bush. In the letter, Penn rightly criticized the Bush Administration. He paid $56,000 to put the letter in the paper.

    Penn also physically helped in the Katrina rescue efforts.

    Along with visiting Chavez in Caracas, Penn has also been to Iran as a “journalist on assignment” for a San Francisco newspaper. He’s also interviewed Raul Castro in Cuba, which apparently, according to your logic, will also make “the whole world” think better of Castro as a result.

    He’s far from some unintelligent dolt, Clav, and the only reason you’re saying that is because you disagree with him politically.

  • Les Slater

    Jordan,

    I wouldn’t put too much stock in what celebrities say about politics. Even Oboma hasn’t a clue about how to deal with the economy; he’s just got himself a powerful team but even they have never gone through a situation like this.

    To me the message in the video is ‘hey, the ship is sinking, every man to himself, you volunteer, were headed for the life boats’

    Les

  • Jordan Richardson

    Les,

    I don’t put too much stock in what celebrities say about politics, just like I don’t put too much stock in what you say about politics.

    And I wouldn’t imagine “Oboma’s” team would have gone through a situation like this. Not many people have.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Dave, I noticed your eagerness to compare this little shitty video to Leni Riefenstahl. I know, I know…it’s the “in” thing to do to compare any sort of movement you don’t agree with to Nazism.

    But propaganda of any kind is a rich part of the American way of life. Do you hold The Right to the same standards? Were you thinking “NAZI during the McCain campaign ads?

    Or does popularity and a unified public really scare you that much? After all, if so many people approve of Obama, he must be up to something…must be.

  • Brunelleschi

    Using Nazi names and symbols to support your argument, unless the comparison is valid, is a sign of desperation, and it’s immature.

    Dave is both.

  • Brunelleschi

    I would question the motive of this article.

    Some celebs decided to lick Obama’s balls. That’s trendy right now.

    This is NEWS?

    It isn’t.

    I think Dave is reaching for something to whine about for propaganda reasons.

    Why? Usually where there is smoke, there is fire. I wonder what the real motive is for all this kind of crap about Obama. There are plenty of other things to write about.

  • Les Slater

    “Were you thinking ‘NAZI during the McCain campaign ads?”

    I never said it about either Bush but Sarah Palin was treading there.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    WAIT A SECOND!!!!

    No one took exception to Dave’s line:
    the left has finally wakened to the idea of volunteerism….”

    Give me a break! Are you out of your mind? The left has been volunteering for decades upon decades?

    WHERE on earth do you come up with this stuff?????

  • http://www.marksaleski.com MarkSaleski

    WHERE on earth do you come up with this stuff?????

    it’s on page 72 of Attention Whoring For Dummies, with associated footnote referencing page 107 of Political Cliches For Dummies.

  • paulwhoispablo

    Les 43

    Interesting that you do not care what “club” these ruling elites belong to as if they were social clubs, which they are not. These are institutions of the ruling elite, by the ruling elite and for the ruling elite, to set policies and coalesce their interests Les, so to not be interested in them I find highly naive.

    As to them not being socialists, they are, however they are not for themselves but for the masses. This is why in the above cited article in the NY Times written by the CFR member he goes out of his way not to use this terminology, for your information Nationalism used in this way is the same thing as Socialism, and there was a movement in Germany circa 1933 called National
    Socialism.

    You also might be interested to know that Communism itself was funded by Wall Street, an excellent book on this subject was written by Anthony Sutton who was an insider. It is not just the “left” that embraces this political philosophy Les, it is found at the very highest echelons of the ruling elite, citations available upon request.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Dave, I noticed your eagerness to compare this little shitty video to Leni Riefenstahl. I know, I know…it’s the “in” thing to do to compare any sort of movement you don’t agree with to Nazism.

    Actually, I was comparing the work of propagandists. Stylistically it is closer to her type of journalistic propaganda than to someone like Capra’s more narrative style. But that comparison might have been a viable alternative. However, on consideration, I was being much too generous. Riefenstahl was a much more skilled director than Demi Moore.

    Were you thinking “NAZI during the McCain campaign ads?

    No, because they were campaign ads, not propaganda.

    Or does popularity and a unified public really scare you that much? After all, if so many people approve of Obama, he must be up to something…must be.

    You seem to have confused me with Pablo. This article isn’t about Obama.
    I wonder what the real motive is for all this kind of crap about Obama. There are plenty of other things to write about.

    Again, nothing about Obama in this article.

    Give me a break! Are you out of your mind? The left has been volunteering for decades upon decades?

    WHERE on earth do you come up with this stuff?????

    From the multiple studies which show that the left volunteers significantly less than more conservative citizens do. It’s not that they do no volunteer work at all, but they give less money and significantly less of their time than do those who are considered more conservative.

    If you doubt me I refer you to Who Really Cares by Professor Arthur Brooks, which is based on a series of surveys which determined that those who are more conservative give about three times as much money to charity as those who consider themselves liberal, and volunteer and an even higher relative rate. It’s full of other similar results on more specific issues.

    Brooks’ work and a variety of similar studies have been widely publicized. Another more recent book which comes up with similar results is Philanthrocapitalism which looks at a much broader range of giving, including corporate charitty.

    And it should be noted that Brooks is a liberal and went into his study expecting to find liberals more generous and was shocked – and based on his comments rather dismayed at what he actually found. To quote Brooks:

    “I expected to find that political liberals — who, I believed, genuinely cared more about others than conservatives did — would turn out to be the most privately charitable people. So when my early findings led me to the opposite conclusion, I assumed I had made some sort of technical error. I re-ran analyses. I got new data. Nothing worked. In the end, I had no option but to change my views.”

    Dave

  • zingzing

    that’s some quote…

  • zingzing

    dave, before this, when was the last time you paid any attention to oprah, and why have you decided to pay attention to this one?

    also, those posters were created during the campaign as a campaign tool. so any picture of your candidates should have had the same effect upon you that this one does. if it’s propaganda, so it this.

  • http://www.joannehuspek.wordpress.com Joanne Huspek

    I found Joe Biden “building” a house the day before the inauguration irritating. Well, I find Joe Biden irritating, especially after learning how little of his income he donates to charity. I probably donate more of my time and money to charity in a year than he does in a decade, and I’m fairly certain I don’t make nearly as much as he does.

  • paulwhoispablo

    Dave 56

    “And it should be noted that Brooks is a liberal”

    Ok, where do I find that notation buddy? I see a guy who was affiliated with the Rand Corporation for years, hardly an institution full of liberal bleeding hearts, and I also see he has been a registered republican, democrat and independent.

    How about some NOTE ation…….?

    Since the he is President of the American Enterprise Institute, which is a conservative think tank, how do you come up with the note that he is a liberal?

    I guess in your world Nalle, up is down, socialist is capatalist, and conservative liberal, however in my book you just make things up to suit your fancy, and I call that desperate!

    I also call into question the entirety of your argument concerning volunteerism, particularly for the less fortunate among us, and/or for the environment at large. This is where the term bleeding heart liberals came from Nalle, the only bleeding heart I have ever come out of a conservative was one that was taken out by the opposition.

    In fact I call into question each and every political viewpoint that you have expressed on this blogsite for the last several years. Your hardly independent, yet call yourself a libertarian along with your bulldog pal Barger, but all I ever really read about coming from you is praise for the status quo and your buddies over at the CFR that you keep hoping you will be invited to join.

    If you represent even an iota of what is being called in some circles a compassionate conservative (an oxyMORON at best) we are all indeed in trouble.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Dave: please provide some sort of “proof.” I know conservatives give more to their churches… and volunteer more to their church-sponsored activities, ie., faith-based initiatives. But I want some other documentation. And, the quote you left out would be nice. And sorry, I don’t think missionary work counts as “volunteering,” so I hope he does not include that.

    And PS, personally I find Oprah way way more irritating that Biden. Haven’t watched her in years. Yuck.

  • paulwhoispablo

    Lisa,

    I feel the same way about Oprah, I can’t stand her, and Dr. Phil is even worse!

  • paulwhoispablo

    Nalle:

    According to wikepedia, and yes I do assume it is FACT:AEI emerged as one of the leading architects of the second Bush administration’s public policy.[2] More than twenty AEI alumni and visiting scholars and fellows served either in a Bush administration policy post or on one of the government’s many panels and commissions.[3]

    Among the prominent former government officials now affiliated with AEI are former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, now an AEI senior fellow; former United States Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, now an AEI visiting scholar; former U.S. ambassador to the U.N. John Bolton, now an AEI senior fellow; and former chairman of the National Endowment for the Humanities (and wife of former Vice President Dick Cheney) Lynne Cheney, a longtime AEI senior fellow.[4]”

    Liberal my arse buddy.

  • paulwhoispablo

    Oh and Davey?

    You ever hear of PNAC buddy? Project For a New American Century? You know the “liberal” think tank started by such lefties as Wolfowitz, Cheney, and Bolton. You are almost funny Dave, but I find it m ore pathetic than entertaining in this particular thread.

    As to your article itself, and you know I am no Obama lover, its pretty lame as well. Comparing this video with Hitler’s filmaker is ummm just that LAME. Also in as much as most of the pledges were not to such things as killing jews, invading other countries, and imperialism, I found the analogy even more lame. That being said, I think Obama’s minions are a danger, and they are far more naive than smart.

  • paulwhoispablo

    Oh and my personal pledge.

    I pledge to resist Obama’s New World Order agenda, and all that it stands for, although I do like a half african american in the whitehouse for obvious reasons, being the non-racist that I am, I regard the man himself with extreme suspicion, particularly with reference to how he answered a question about the CFR, and his known fondness and relationship for the fascist Brzenski.

  • Les Slater

    Paul,

    “These are institutions of the ruling elite, by the ruling elite and for the ruling elite, to set policies and coalesce their interests…”

    So? It is thinking they wouldn’t, shouldn’t or might not, that is naive. The real point is that the ruling class does not have an infinite variety of options that they just have to come up with; they too must live within the material constraints of the capitalist system itself, and their options are dwindling. Do you think they want to nationalize the banks? It’s a desperate measure they hope will help in a situation of dramatically accelerating economic crisis

    They will have these institutions until they are removed from power. I won’t lose any sleep worrying about it.

    National socialists? You seem to not understand what ‘national socialism’ is. On one hand it’s an ideology, many hold it, or at least think they do. For some it’s not much more than a Halloween mask designed to impress the faint of heart, often their parents. In its real and dangerous form it’s a variant of fascism. It’s a tool of the capitalist class designed to mobilize a mass movement of the frenzied middle classes and desperate workers to destroy any organized resistance by the working class to any actions the capitalist deems necessary to the preservation of the rule of capital.

    Les

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Les, Pablo,

    I’m trying to understand the nature of your disagreement.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Paulwho and some others here are about as “out there” as any of the most ardent conspiracy nuts.

    In reading Paul’s rants I conjure an image of some mad, power hungry demented apparition of a man ensconced in some deep underground bunker, probably strapped to a wheel chair, who is pulling all the strings, directing us into the evil “new world order.” At some predetermined moment, he will unleash the minions of hell to spread their fascist/socialist venom throughout the world. If you’re observant, you can pick these scurrilous beasts out of the crowd as they observe all via a third eye positioned just below their necks (they tend to wear a lot of “V” neck sweaters and Ts,) and it’s said that they have 2 assholes all the better to spread their particular brand of insidious left – er, right (what the hell – both left AND right) wing bullshit. Be afraid. Be very afraid. Trust no one. One day soon we may all be forced to watch a never ending reel of “Scooby Doo” episodes with our eyes clamped open ala “A Clockwork Orange.”

    B

  • paulwhoispablo

    Les,

    I understand exactly what National Socialism is, and more particularly the form that was practiced in Germany. I know about the Thule Society, do you Les? I also know about Thyssen Krupp, and I also know about Brown Brothers Harriman and the Union Banking Corporation, do you Les old buddy?

    I do have a book that I can recommend to YOU Les so that you might become more acquainted with National Socialism should you be interested. It is called The Rise of the Fourth Reich and written by Jim Marrs. I have also been listening to one Dave Emory who has been an anti fascist researcher for some 25 odd years, and his weekly shows can be found by googling his name.

    So yes Les I am intimately familiar with National Socialism as practiced by Adolph and his buddies, and I have a vast comprehension of what their agendas and goals were, as well as their tactics, perhaps you should do some of your own studying before suggesting that I do not fella. You just might learn something.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    I failed to close the tag on the quote, it’s restored now.

    Pablo, you need to read up a bit more on PNAC and some of the people you reference. They may be Republicans, but they – like Brooks – are liberal Republicans. Hell, PNAC is a bunch of socialists. They just think that the GOP is the best tool through which they can advance their agenda of world domination.

    AEI and CFR are liberal institutions too. You need to read up on what liberalism is, especially in the modern context.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    dave and his definitions…

  • paulwhoispablo

    Baritone,

    I will hand it to you, that was a cute rant, however it still does not explain your blind obedience to your new fuherer. You are so naive to think that your vote actually counts (it doesnt) and that the left wing and right wing are not controlled by the same entrenched criminal elements running the country (they are). It is truly one thing to be naive, but another to show the hubris that you do on a daily basis as if you really know ANYTHING about who is running the show, cause you dont. PERIOD

    It is truly a mass hypnosis that you have fallen victim to, perhaps you actually believe what they told you in school, that this is a free country (it is not) and that those that are elected represent you or your interests, (they never have), and that you have some say in your politics, (you dont).

    I live neither in a cave Baritone buddy, nor am I paranoid, if I was I wouldnt be openly writing about the criminal gang that is running our country, I just happen to be aware of them and you arent. Did you ever wonder why Clinton and Bush Sr are such pals Baritone? Are you familiar with Mena Arkansas, and Barry Seale? Do you know about the Harriman’s conncetion with both the Bush family and the Clinton’s?

    The fact is Baritone is that you are way out of your league with me in the political arena, and like Dave of the right, your Baritone of the left, and you have very little to go on in your political musings other than what you have been conditioned to believe. I stepped out of the conditioning literally decades ago. You have some real catching up to do before you can even begin to debate me on the issues of the day in a clear and concise fashion, instead you resort to the Dave Nalle school of debating, sneer and make fun of, similarly to how people laughed at Galileo’s claim that the world was not flat. Have fun Baritone buddy I sure am.

  • Les Slater

    Paul,

    Re 69, you have all the earmarks of a member of the frenzied middle class which I have been talking about who will be the most susceptible to falling under the spell of a fascist demagogue.

    Les

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Well, Pablo,

    I think we should soon find out whether you’re are right or Baritone. Would you say, in the next four years?

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Clav,

    “It doesn’t take a lot of brains to be an actor.”

    I know you have done some work as an extra in some films as I have. However, I don’t believe that makes you an expert regarding what it takes to be an actor.

    I spent about 10 years of my life acting. Doing it well is not easy. I grant you that there are a number of so called “celebrities” who appear to be brain dead. But few, if any, of them are considered to be accomplished actors.

    Actually, I do consider Sean Penn to be quite intelligent. I have seen him in a number of interviews including a couple of recent ones with Charlie Rose. Penn handles himself quite well.

    BTW. Like her or not, Oprah is no dummy. She didn’t acquire her fortune by being a pretty face.

    I’ve recently seen some people, when discussing Bernie Madoff, essentially wink in admiration of him because he was able to bilk hundreds of people out of billions of dollars as if he was some kind of ersatz Robin Hood. Yet, when considering someone like Oprah, many scoff. It is likely that Oprah has far more scruples than Madoff could ever muster.

    B

  • Robert Paulson

    WOW! I watched the video and saw much self awareness, sincerity and promised commitment to work together to solve the problems of our society. It’s always interesting how the right spins and twists what they see to forward their own agenda. Of course they have the master teacher in Rush Limbaugh. He actually comes out and blatantly broadcasts his objective, to make Obama fail. Gee guys, thanks for the help. If you really want to see the scope of the problems we face all you have to do is to recap the hateful and spiteful blunders of the past eight years. Now that we have someone that inspires us all to commit to rebuilding America all you can do is complain and conspire against us. Good luck with your animus, you’ll need it. YES WE CAN.

  • zingzing

    dave, it does seem that charitable giving rests more on religion than political party. it just happens to be that conservatives are more religious. but charitable giving directly to a church doesn’t really benefit anyone except the church, and that information was counted in the surveys cited. if you take away religious giving, charitable donations by party are MUCH closer. then, if you look at fiscally equal groups, it gets even closer.

  • Les Slater

    Paul gives these conspirators more credit than they deserve. The main thing is that he exaggerates their power. They are much weaker than they would have us believe. They are running out of options. They are quite frightened. That is why they are seriously considering nationalizing the banks.

    Paul sees it as some sort of power play. That couldn’t be further from the truth.

  • Mark Eden

    Paul, I do not want to start a flame war with you so please try not to take this as some kind of an attack. My problem with your presentation of the ‘secret history’ can be summed up in a question:

    So what if 9/11 was an inside job, or if the owners get together to plot strategy, or if their intellectual lackeys at the CFR spend their time packaging the NWO for mass marketing? What do you suggest should be done about it? You’ve written that you see your job to spreading the truth — educating people about hidden power relationships. How do you think these relationships can be challenged and changed?

    Mark

  • zingzing

    no! mark! no!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    B-tone, Clav is right – in a way. It doesn’t take a lot of brains to be an actor.

    It does take brains (and a bit more besides) to be a good one.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Baritone (#75),

    Besides, it’s a lame argument. God knows how may times I’ve heard it before. Some of course are more intelligent and more attuned to political debate than others; but that’s true of any segment of the population or the profession. What I don’t understand is why being an actor should preclude that person from having interesting things to say. In what sense we, the bloggers and participants on these threads, are any more qualified to voice our opinions. By this logic, only those who are properly accredited in Political Science or Political Philosophy should be the ones whose voice ought to count. But if we employed some such criterion, I’m willing to bet that perhaps 99 percent of us would be disqualified.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    I won’t argue with you Doc. But the same can be said for a lot of things. Say, for being an appraiser, or a boat salesman.

    B

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Robert Paulson (#76),

    It’s just some of us, Robert, who are into that. Look through the many responses on this thread and you’ll see how many of us really contemptuous of the negativities that I being planted in people’s minds. Personally, I think it’s demagoguery of the worst kind.

  • Les Slater

    Roger,

    The point is that this video dovetails, and reinforces Obama’s point that we are all in this together. Still, the best point was made by Arch in #3.

    We are not in this together. The interests and living reality of those testifying and pledging are nowhere near what most of us face.

    It doesn’t matter how smart or what their opinions are. They are using their status as celebrities to do the government’s bidding in perpetuating this myth.

    Les

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    So you’re saying, Les (#78), that the situation is not as grim as some foresee. This should be good news.

  • paulwhoispablo

    Mark 79

    I appreciate the conciliatory manner in which you have asked a sincere question, and I too do not want anymore flame wars than I have currently with the Nalle, Clavy, and bringing up the left Baritone, and I do reiterate on all of them, it was never I that started being less than polite first, I just happen to strike back.

    As to your questions, I think it is incumbent on all of us that love freedom and liberty, to demand it, as that is the only way that even a modicum of freedom has ever been achieved in this world. Expose and resist tyranny in all of its myriad forms whether of the right fascism, or of the left communism/socialism, and any of their other tributaries.

    Be willing to grant others freedom, whether it be religious, secular, or just plain human. Every form of tax (and yes I do now that we need taxes to pay for the functions of government) is a form of coercion if it is not voluntarily given. Coercion in my view should only be used as a last resort, if at all, barring criminal proceedings.

    Investigate, investigate, investigate, and question all forms of authority, and where they get their power from. How many among you are aware of the common law, what due process really means, and that your rights do not come from the constitution but from the almighty as laid out in detail in the Declaration of Independence.

    Look around you. Do you see? RFID chips going in everywhere, unmanned drones trolling the skies above you, US troops being called into domestic law enforcement. Cell phones that are tracing your every move with gps and no warrants. Having to pee in a tube to show that your blood is pure enough to get a fucking job. Yes folks this is fascism, but with a friendly OBAMA face now :)

    We are turning into a total surveillance society, and soon a global one world corporate police state, its not fiction, its not paranoid fantasy but fucking fact folks, deny it all you want.

    Stand up for your rights, even at the cost of your own life, as if you dont soon you will have NONE, that is just a fact of life, and has always been the case.

    The 750 billion that all of us must pay, has been turned into 8 trillion, no accountability, no one can trace the dough, that is because it is a criminal enterprise, and done with the force of law folks.

    MY/YOUR freedom ends where YOUR/MY nose begins and not a fraction of an inch further, demand it, dont ask for it demand it, and if needs be fight for it.

    Yes I do believe 9/11 was an inside job, just as I believe through years of study that JFK’s assassination was an inside job, and I happen to believe that the CFR is right up to their fucking ears in it. I did not make up the history that the most powerful influential and richest family of the last 250 years is the Rothschilds, that is history, it is not debatable, but fact.

    Your FED, your CFR, was created by them, as surely as the sun rises every morning, do your own research as I have, before you start casting cute ignorant stones. Soon you will be paying your taxes and your carbon taxes DIRECTLY to the banks, as they own your ass.

    Freedom is the only thing worth fighting for in this world, and the american people have become sheople, and brainwashed beyond belief, soon their will be hell do pay. I believe Obama to be a puppet of them, as in good cop bad cop. I wish it were different, I see the charisma of the man, but I know better, particularly when he teams up with Brzenski the creator of the Mujahadeen and AlCiada. The real enemy to them is not Alciada, but freedom loving americans, and now they attempt to blur the line between terrorism and criminality and for damned good reason.

    My two sense worth

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Now, this I agree with! It is definitely putting a helluva gloss on the actual present.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    True, B-tone. You can phone it in with most jobs. But, as with every profession, there are some actors who are extremely good at their job, and I’m not just talking about looking the part.

    I can’t see that you could really argue convincingly that, for example, Robert DeNiro, Leonardo DiCaprio, Meryl Streep and Kate Winslet are as thick as two short planks.

    The one who’s an enigma to me is Tom Cruise. He’s a superb actor – one of the best in the business. Yet most of the time offscreen he comes across as a complete idiot. He’s hard to fathom. Maybe it’s the Scientology thing.

    So the question then becomes: which of the actors in the video are deserving of Clavos’ dismissiveness?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Perhaps a better question would be the one raised by Archie (#3) and the one that Les had just picked up on. Now, it THAT had been the focus and the point of contention of Dave’s always erudite article, I should say we have a subject worthy of discussion.

  • Les Slater

    Roger (86),

    I am optimistic but do see misery aplenty on its way. The working class actually needs to take power. That’s our only defense.

    I actually thought the article I linked to in #40 was quite interesting. Paul attacked the messenger without ever discussing the content. This is a significant section of the ruling class speaking publicly. It is worth reading and discussing.

    Les

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Paul,

    I know you generally ignore what I say – but in general, you and I track. I’ve been given to believe there is a lot more to it, but frankly, bringing that stuff to this list bothers me. Not because I am afraid to point these things out but because they are hard for me to believe. If something is hard for me to believe, I don’t expect anybody here (except perhaps you) to buy it.

  • paulwhoispablo

    Les 78

    I happen to agree with most of what you said in your post sir. They are frightened, and that is because so many people are waking up and smelling the fascism and lies. I do not believe however that nationalizing the banks is from fear, it is part of their plan. The biggest threat to this brave New World Order, is the United States of America’s citizenry and the rule of law under the Constitution, and the common law, which includes the right to be armed. So in order for these globalists to achieve their objectives they first have to dismantle the USA, and they are doing a damned good job of it. From the USA Patriot (talk about doublespeak) Act, to torturing, to denying American citizens due process under the law by holding them incommunicado, and wiretapping americans without warrant. Now they are beginning to dismantle the financial infrastructure as well. It is a very well orchestrated effort, and done with precision timing.

    They are indeed week however as they are not aligned with the divine. Call it love if you will, they are opposed to it, and draw their very power from fear and ignorance, which americans have given them in abundance during the last decade.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    As for the article itself, I got an e-mail where a whole series of adulatory posters of Obama were compared to similar posters of Lenin – and I was not surprised. I frankly do think that a cult of personality is being built around Obama. The real question is, is he willing to take advantage of it?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Pablo,

    “We are turning into a total surveillance society”

    I definitely agree with you there. Michel Foucault tried to alert us this feature of modern life in his “Knowledge & Power” essays. Have we forgotten it?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Roger @ #90:

    It’s for that reason that I don’t generally pay attention to anything celebrities say or do that doesn’t pertain to their profession.

    I look to these people to entertain me and that’s about it.

  • Cindy D

    We are not in this together. The interests and living reality of those testifying and pledging are nowhere near what most of us face.

    The interests and living reality of those here are nowhere near what most of us face.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    The main flaw I see with the überconspiracy theory is that if a sinister global elite does have its controlling claws sunk into every aspect of modern life and society, how is Pablo able to come on here and tell us about it?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    And how do we know he’s not a part of the conspiracy – a stooge planted to make believers in the conspiracy look silly?

    Pablo, I know these may appear to be disparaging questions, but I’d be interested in your answers.

  • paulwhoispablo

    Ruvy,

    Of course it is hard to believe. For the obvious reason, that is there is no foundation left on which to base ones beliefs. A case in point:

    How many americans would actually believe that their own government would actually participate in murdering 3000 of their own citizens in a false flag terror attack? Once you believe that what is left of your precious belief in a government of by and for the people?

    Yet all one has to do is look at the war in Iraq, and one can plainly see that the powers that be have no compunction whatsoever in sacrificing thousands of souls (as they did in Vietnam) to death and injury, not for a military objective as in defending our borders, or our sovereignty, but a geopolitical agenda as laid out in the Project for A New American Century.

    How dumb does one have to be, to see the Bin Laden family doing business with the Bush’s for 25 years, and think that Osama was a rogue? He was created by the CIA and Brzenski to do just what he did, not only that but the Moslem Brotherhood from whence many of these guys came has been thoroughly infiltrated for years by both British and American Intelligence agencies.

    How dumb does one have to be when you have the sitting President and Vice President insisting that they testify together not under oath to a commission that covered up the facts, to believe that something is amuck? And I am the delusional one? I think not folks.

    How many of you erudite politicos know that on the morning of 9/10/2001 Rumsfeldt came on national TV and said that there was 2.3 trillion dollars missing, and we havent heard a thing about it since? Oh and I am the one that is delusional……..hehehehe, yeah sure I am.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Paul & Les,

    I think I am beginning to detect the main point of disagreement between you, Paul, and Les.

    Either of you, correct me if I am wrong. Paul is banking on the U.S. Constitution, the institutions of our liberal democracy, and the freedoms guaranteed thereby as the last line of defense against the New World Order (and in his thinking, U.S. represents the greatest obstacle, and in this limited context, I agree). Whereas you, Les, disagree with the major premise and press for radicalization of the American society with the oppressed and working-class at the helm.

    This is just a stab, I realize it, but I think this discussion should be pursued.

  • paulwhoispablo

    Dread 98

    I wont respond to 99 as its just your SILLY way of attacking me instead of debating me on the issue pal.

    As to 98, as I am not one of them I cannot actually answer that question, but I have my theory, which is that they are not particularly concerned about people waking up, and perhaps they themselves foster conspiracies. A case in point, why not release the 80 some odd video surveillance cams that were focused on the Pentagon on 9/11, instead of releasing a one second blip as they did that the MSM said settled the matter? What is to hide 8 years later, if they say they know who the culprits were? It is obvious to me that they want speculation on it, or they would release the tapes.

    And yes the second question was disparaging, be my guest Dread. :)

    I already know that I am as intelligent as you, if not more so. I already know that I can write coherent sentences, and have a vocabulary perhaps as good as you do. And I already know that I have a vastly superior understanding of US history, our founding documents, and US foreign policy than you do Dread. So please, be my guest!

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, re your #92, I think you should raise anything along those lines that concerns you. There is nothing wrong with asking questions… Where I differ from Pablo is that my standards of proof are higher.

  • Les Slater

    Paul,

    “They are frightened, and that is because so many people are waking up and smelling the fascism and lies.”

    Fascism is a danger, but not in the immediate future, nor are measures taken by government, fascist. Those that believe so are more dangerous than any present imagined fascism. And the ruling class is quite comfortable with conspiracy theorists. They help give the impression that they are stronger than they are.

    We have to get past over complicating the reality we are facing. It just just frustrates people and does no good. It is harmful.

    The reality is we are facing a numerically minuscule class that we can defeat.

    “They are indeed week however as they are not aligned with the divine. Call it love if you will, they are opposed to it, and draw their very power from fear and ignorance, which americans have given them in abundance during the last decade.”

    Not very scientific appreciation of reality. You running around saying they control us isn’t helping any. They are losing control. They can’t even explain to us what’s happening. People are asking questions, and they’re not about fascism either.

    Les

  • Mark Eden

    Thanks for #87 Paul. Arm and prepare for action then?

    Cindy #97 – that’s the truth.

  • Les Slater

    “Whereas you, Les, disagree with the major premise and press for radicalization of the American society with the oppressed and working-class at the helm.”

    I don’t think I need to press for the radicalization of the working class. The class will radicalize. The question is how sober will it be. The likes of Paul’s view will render it in a stupor, a dangerous and rightist one at that.

    A frenzied middle class is the road to fascism, not social revolution.

  • paulwhoispablo

    Ruvy 92

    Uhhhh I am not selling anything, I just write what are my observations on politics. You obviously already believe what you do, as do I. I just happen to enjoy writing my thoughts down. I am not running for office, selling anything, nor trying to change anyones views of reality. If I was selling something you would know it, as there would be a place to enter your credit card, and I do that on other sites. :)

    What some of us begin to see as we get older is that the world is formed from our beliefs, both individually and collectively, and in my opinion beliefs are nothing more than wishful thinking on how reality should be, rather than actual naked unbiased perception, which I happen to think meditation is about, or perhaps a good acid trip.

    If you are raised a racist, chances are that you will disparage people of color. If you are raised a misonogyst chances are you will only use the missionary position, and not be concerned with your partners satisfaction and well being.

    I have been actively studying politics, and particularly american politics for over 25 years. What I write about is what I have observed and ‘believe’ about what is going on. Is it the truth? It is my truth, by that I mean that I honestly say what I observe and believe. I will be the first one to say categorically that I may be wrong. I wonder if Nalle and Clavy have the humility to to likewise. No I dont really wonder at all, not even an iota of wonderment about that one. :)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Doc (98&99),

    But perhaps it’s a moot point, Doc. Whether by design or simply in terms of unintended consequences, one could argue that there had been a significant erosion of our freedoms, and a great many thinkers, from Orwell, Raymond Williams and Michel Foucault, have been alerting us to this unwelcome development. Some have envisaged the menace in the form of a fascist or totalitarian government, other, more recently, are heralding it as The New World Order, as fashions go and change. Regardless of how we choose to call it, I think the dangers (if only by way of reaction) are there.

    So it all depends, I suppose, on how we view the progression of history. One view would be to attribute historical changes to agents; another, to a historical process (I imagine) irrespective of agent.

    Personally, I’m undecided which view is more accurate; perhaps a mixture of both. But whether we believe in some grand conspiracy or not, perhaps the more valid point would be that it looks AS THOUGH it were there. Of course it would be great to be able to identify the cause(s. In the absence of that, we must be concerned with the effects.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Les (#106),

    So you do disagree with Pablo’s major premise?

  • Baronius

    That last shot of the video is the really disturbing one. The camera pulls back, and each celebrity turns out to be a pixel in the face of Obama. There it is: the individual disappears, and the collective identity of Obama is all that remains.

    “Does Big Brother exist?”
    “Of course Big Brother exists. Big Brother has always existed.”
    “No, I mean does Big Brother exist in the way that you or I exist?”
    “You do not exist.”

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Paul,

    I want to repeat the point I just made to make it clear to you. I’ve been given to believe there is a lot more to it, but frankly, bringing that stuff to this list bothers me. Not because I am afraid to point these things out but because they are hard for me to believe. If something is hard for me to believe, I don’t expect anybody here (except perhaps you) to buy it.

    I have no trouble writing most of what you say because I agree with you. We may differ on a couple of points here and there, but 100% agreement is found only in the grave.

    What I’m talking about goes beyond anything I’ve ever seen you write, stuff that I might well agree with most of the way, and is stuff I have brought up only occasionally here.

    So, to give y9ou some examples, we agree that:
    1. 9/11 was a false flag operation;
    2. the education system has been dumbed down in America systematically to allow a small Harvard based elite to dominate the economy;
    3. that a few families, whose business interests are represented by the CFR and other groups, dominate policy in this country;
    4. that the Rothchilds are among those families.

    I don’t normally write about this stuff (aside from the CFR) because all sorts of crazies misinterpret it. In addition, the folks who can’t handle these painful truths deny and deny and deny. This stuff hurts!

    I think you get the picture. But go check out Barry Chamish’s book Labor Zionism, Shabtai Tzvi and the Holocaust, particularly, chapter 7 of it.

    This is hard for me to swallow – painful, even. I have the feeling it was hard for Barry to write, also. This really hurts – me.

  • paulwhoispablo

    Ruvy,

    Thanks for the clarification. As to Chamish I am familiar with him having heard him numerous times on Alex Jone’s site infowars.com. I will see if I can acquire this book and read the chapter you suggested Ruvy.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Conspiracy theorists make the same overstatements that one sees on most TV cop/legal/procedural shows. Invariably these programs depict the bad guy or gal as some super intellect who remains several steps ahead of the cops and the legal eagles, spinning their complex plots woven with their mad sociopathic brilliance. It makes for good drama. Of course, the truth of the matter is that 99.99% of all criminals have the intellectual acumen of goulash.

    Conspiracy nuts believe that there is some super organization or organizations that deftly control everything. Certainly, there are those who would love to wield such power, and some have sought to acquire it. But the conspiracy theorists give such individuals and groups far too much credit.

    The world with its vast differences in locations, climates, histories, cultures, religions, political and economic structures is far more complex and recalcitrant than any group or groups could ever manage effective control over.

    There is always someone who manages to come up with the kind of idiocy that we’ve seen on this thread who, like some ersatz Elmer Gantry, warn us against our disbelief and our stupidity that we are doomed unless we see the light that they so earnestly provide.

    B

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    And the twisted man in the wheelchair is…. (fill in the blank)

    I think Les nailed it right on the head in #73 when he said:

    “Re 69, you have all the earmarks of a member of the frenzied middle class which I have been talking about who will be the most susceptible to falling under the spell of a fascist demagogue.”

    Which is exactly what I wrote in an article about the fringers who follow Ron Paul a few months ago. The article particularly outraged Pablo because it hit so close to home.

    The self-deluded people who subscribe to these global conspiracy theories are ripe for the plucking for any demagogue who comes along and wants to play to their fears to use them as the basis for a fascist movement.

    Dave

  • Cindy D

    Pablo,

    I wish you would answer Mark’s question in #105. What to do on a practical level?

  • Les Slater

    Dave, what’s your take on the NYT article I linked to in #40?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Cindy,

    I wish you would answer Mark’s question in #105. What to do on a practical level?

    On the practical level, you do what you are able. My friend Barry, with the help of a few friends, has been able to convince a large sector of the Israeli public that the Rabin assassination has been covered up, and he has been able to cast enough of a shadow of doubt on the integrity of Shim’on Peres to deny him the leadership of the Labor Party here in 2005. That is why he fled Israel – Peres (yes that aging octogenarian who is the State President) has a hit squad.

    I’m able to write here. If I can find someone to translate my writings into Hebrew, Russian, French and Arabic, I might well become a target of Peres’ hit squad also, though they’ve gone after far more famous people. I’m a small nothing compared to the generals and heroes that they have assassinated over the years.

    I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but I actively supported Barack Obama here, even though think that if he is not a Jew-hater himself (I don’t think he operates that way – ambition consumes too much), he is backed by Jew-haters and will emerge as a real enemy to Israel. Do you remember all those posts I’ve written about Israel separating itself from the American teat and kicking out the arrogant American meddlers with our domestic policy? Are you getting the picture? Obama is my tool to get the government here overthrown, so we can do what we should be doing in Israel.

  • paulwhoispablo

    Cindy,

    Why do you assume because I see a problem, that I know the solution?

    Baritone 113

    And naive folks such as yourself BELIEVE that you actually have a say in your government. You may notice that I differentiate between calling you a nut or naive. You prefer as Nalle does the nut label, as it helps your self-esteem, and also you use it as an excuse not to debate someone on the issues of the day.

    Only a naive person would believe that an Obama actually pulled himself up by his own bootstraps, and decided on his own to become the most powerful man in government in the world. Only someone who has been so thoroughly brainwashed would believe that that their votes count, regardless of the fact that both of bush’s campaigns were blatantly rigged.

    Only someone that has been totally duped by the MSM, would ever believe that ANYONE in your local state or federal government gives a shit about you.

    You can bathe in your naivete all day long Baritone, and I will proudly wear my tin foil hat, at the very least I am not living in denial as you are fella.

    I wonder why the great liberal Baritone never bashed to my knowledge Obamas position and vote on spying on americans without warrant? I wonder if the esteemed Baritone really thinks that Leon Panetta is really concerned for your well being.

    I assume Baritone that you are clever enough to have figured out that the biggest attack on American soil in the last 200 years was carried out by a conspiracy, if so, does that make you a nut? It does in my book if you believe what Bush and Cheney testified to not under oath at the 9/11 hearings. smile :)

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Les, I really dislike the idea of nationalizing the banks. As a matter of principle it’s a terrible idea. The people don’t need to be saddled with the problems these banks have. I’d rather see them fail and reorganize.

    The counter argument is that they are effectively already nationalized, so what’s the big difference? An argument to which I find myself with few answers, except that it’s unfair to the small banks and credit unions which have been managed responsibly all this time and are still functioning the way they are supposed to.

    The fact that this crisis is impacting the large banks and not the small banks and credit unions to the same degree is a very singnificant indicator that it’s those big banks irresponsibility which is at fault, and I hate to see it rewarded or written off at the expense of the taxpayers.

    Dave

  • Les Slater

    But do you agree that the ruling class is seriously considering nationalizing the banks?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Les,

    Concerning #116, there was a similar discussion concerning nationalization of banks in UK, in the Economist, I think. A very strong argument, by the way, to the effect why it’s a better idea than just bailout. I forget which bank was involved. Do you have any recollection? I’ll post the link if and when I find it.

  • Les Slater

    Roger,

    I think there have been several, the latest, the Royal Bank of Scotland.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Here is one link, both Les and Dave:

    The spectre of nationalisation.

    It’s not the one I had in mind; still, a view from abroad.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    But do you agree that the ruling class is seriously considering nationalizing the banks?

    Not nationalizing THE banks, but nationalizing some banks, certainly. We put the nationalizers in power and some of them are bound to see this as an opportunity to expand the power of government.

    Dave

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Right, Pablo, there’s no real answer to my #99, is there? But it does illustrate where paranoia can lead.

    I don’t have a problem buying into the notion that much of the world’s political, administrative and economic structure is controlled by an elite which is very small compared to the population as a whole. I think that much is fairly obvious to anyone with their eyes open.

    But this leads me to one of the other main reasons I don’t regard such an overarching conspiracy as credible: I can’t really see what it would profit the conspirators. Pablo, you often speak of ‘sheeple’, but the fact of the matter is that a large majority of the population (say 80%) will just wait for someone to tell them what to do anyway. Another 10% won’t do what they’re told because they’re either stupid or rebellious or both, and the remaining 10% are leaders. I’ve simplified things a bit, but lots of studies on the psychology of crowds bear this out. It isn’t a criticism of modern culture or necessarily a bad thing – it’s just the way humans are.

    So say you’re a would-be global conspirator. 80% of the population is under your control anyway. You can’t control the stupid 10%; and the other 10% is presumably you and your co-conspirators.

    So what advantage would you even get from conspiring?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Les, Dave:

    The following is a link to the Swedish situation alluded to in the previous link:

    Stopping a Financial Crisis, the Swedish Way.

  • Les Slater

    “We put the nationalizers in power and some of them are bound to see this as an opportunity to expand the power of government.”

    I don’t see any substantial history of a desire to nationalize banks in Obama or his economic team. I don’t think any of them desire it now. They are debating whether it is a necessity or can they find some lesser option.

    The open discussion of nationalizing is an indication of just how deep the crisis is and how fast it is deteriorating.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Doc,

    I must say it’s a clever argument, but it presupposes rationality. I’d like to say that power is an aphrodisiac and those who are under its spell are just crazed. So to assume rational thinking or behavior on the part of those who are so affected is to take a quantum leap.

    So I’d like to return to a point I raised a couple of posts before, in #108: since we can’t ascertain one way of another whether you or Pablo is right, we must focus instead on the aftereffects, or the fallout, if you like, (which appears to be orchestrated, although it may not be). Am I totally off the wall here to think it’s a matter of concern?

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    But Les, I think that if we had different people in power they might not even consider nationalization. I’m not saying that Obama and his crew came into office with the intent to nationalize the banks, but they do have that option in their playbook, while others might not.

    If Sweden, of all countries, managed to deal with this sort of crisis without nationalizing the banks, then if we go that far it’s a real failure of leadership.

    I’m firmly convinced that the person who is mostly likely to have his finger on the pulse of this is Robert Reich, and he suggests that the likely solution is the creation of an “aggregator” bank which will be run by the government and exist to buy up bad bank debts, take them off the books of the troubled banks and resolve them over an extended period of time. This is basically what the Swedes did, and makes much more sense than nationalization.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    #127: Correct, the very fact that they’re even considering this option – in the good ol’ US of A – is just that kind of indication.

  • paulwhoispablo

    Nalle 114

    “The article particularly outraged Pablo because it hit so close to home.”

    As you may well have surmised by now Nalle, I am perfectly capable of expressing the reasons for my own perceptions and feelings. That fact that you have to come on here and tell others a lie as to why I was upset with you, and indeed have the audacity (nothing new about that Nalle) to say why I was feeling that way I was, which again is a blatant lie, only goes to show how weak most of your arguments are.

    So allow me to express my feelings again Davey boy, and why. I know you prefer to put words in other peoples mouths, its one of your tactics.

    I was outraged about your portrayal of this man as leading to fascism. I have never heard Jones utter one sentence that was either racist, sexist, or in anyway calling for any sort of totalitarianism, or tyranny. Indeed he has spent the last 12 years or so fighting tyranny, and you come along as you usually do with those you disagree with and smear them.

    Instead of debating on the issues, you smear, its that simple. I do understand however it is all you can do, as your lame arguments fall flat most of the time, so you choose name calling as your forte.

    I asked you before, never got an answer, how are your stats on idiotwars doing? How many visitors do you get a day Nalle? I would think very few, because thats the best you can do. I challenged you several months ago to call Jones on his radio show, someone doesn’t apparently have any balls, its not me pal.

    Months ago I was bored one Thursday night and tuned into your monologue radio show. I have never heard someone so full of themselves as I did the night I listened to you Davey. Your conceit shows through so clearly when you actually entertain yourself with your own voice, with absolutely nothing new under the sun to talk about!

    Now Jones on the other hand has a myriad of excellent guests on, and has perhaps millions of listeners, I being one of them.

    You compare Jones to fascism yet fail to show in a clear and concise manner how you make that leap. Fascism is a political movement based on the merging of political power with corporate power. I can suggest to you an excellent book on this diabolical movement. It is called Fascism and written by one Benito Musselini. How you can derive this movement to Jones is beyond credulity.

    But hey Dave keep on smearing, I like a spade calling himself a spade any day o the week buddy.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I must say it’s a clever argument, but it presupposes rationality.

    So does Pablo’s position.

    The power-grabs of crazed people always fail sooner or later. Witness Hitler, Stalin, Amin, etc., etc.

  • Hope and Change?

    Ruvy…you are saying that 911 was a “false flag” operation conducted by Israel??? Interesting…..

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    As I said, I have no horse in this race, Doc. But what you said – and I agree with you, all such machinations are bound to fail in the long run – doesn’t argue one way or another as to where the truth lies. Let’s just say that “power” tends to congregate, whether by human design or naturally. And all power-grabs by the crazies have brought misery and death to millions before they eventually failed, so this is should be no consolation. Plus, we’re not talking here about any kind of conquest by fire & sword, which would be relatively speaking easy to identify, but in terms of world finance and economy. To say the least, the crumbling of the world markets is not a good sign, and I hope it’s only temporary

    As I said, I don’t have a horse in this race, nor a definite view on the matter. I just hope that Pablo is wrong.

  • paulwhoispablo

    Dread 125

    If you had looked into any of this yourself you would have found out that one of the main agendas of the globalists is to cull the planet either through genocide or the birthrate of just those 80% that you are referring to.

    I highly suggest that you get a copy of Tragedy and Hope, a torrent of this book is easily available, written by Carrol Quigley and read it for yourself.

    In fact if you go to Amazon.com and do a search on the CFR other than books written by CFR members themselves, the vast majority of them make similar claims than Quigley does. As to its genesis, there is no question, it is even today part of Chatham House, and was started by JP Morgan. Their agenda has always been Globalism, and there are countless Foreign Affairs magazines out there that will attest to that.

  • Les Slater

    “…I think that if we had different people in power they might not even consider nationalization.”

    But the dramatic moves toward government intervention in the economic sector started almost a year ago under the Bush administration. These moves bore the logic of nationalization back then. Obama has inherited a situation that doesn’t leave much room for inaction. The options are dwindling by the day.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    In fact if you go to Amazon.com and do a search on the CFR other than books written by CFR members themselves, the vast majority of them make similar claims than Quigley does.

    Idiots parroting the ideas of other idiots to be read by still other idiots in the great, inbred idiot echo chamber.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Right. And it’s all about rescue!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Who is Jones, Pablo?

  • Cindy D

    Ruvy,

    I did notice you supported Obama since pre-election. I can’t say much more about your post as I’m avoiding discussing the whole issue here.

    Doing what we can… That might be a start. You know, as opposed to saying that and then doing nothing.

  • Cindy D

    Paul/Pablo,

    Why do you assume because I see a problem, that I know the solution?

    I don’t. I was interested in your opinion.

  • paulwhoispablo

    Roger 139
    Alex Jones
    infowars.com

    he is also a filmaker and has about 15 movies that are available on video.google.com for viewing.

    Nalle 137

    Like I said I love seeing a spade calling itself a spade. Please keep up the good work.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    How many of you erudite politicos know that on the morning of 9/10/2001 Rumsfeldt came on national TV and said that there was 2.3 trillion dollars missing, and we havent heard a thing about it since? Oh and I am the one that is delusional……..hehehehe, yeah sure I am.

    This is a classic example of how these bogus conspiracy theories are generated through a slight misrepresentation of the facts on which an entire house of cards is built.

    In fact, Rumsfeld was reporting on a long-term investigation of pentagon inefficiency and he did NOT say that $2.3 trillion were missing. What he said is that they “could not track” where that $2.3 trillion in assets (not spending) was, because of the Pentagon’s ridiculous accounting methods.

    The money was not “missing” and it was not taken by someone or shunted into black ops — or at least there was no evidence to support those theories. It was just money which their bizarre accounting methods could not track reliably. And in fact, because of the way they did their accounting at that time that money may never have even existed anywhere except on paper.

    By changing “cannot track” to “missing” and making much of the fact that Rumsfeld happened to mention the issue in an interview right before 9/11 the conspiracymongers make it look as if that huge chunk of cash just disappeared right before the 9/11 attack. But the truth is that the audit was completed months before and had been reported to the Congress in July of 2001 and the unaccounted for funds didn’t just disappear and may never have existed at all. It’s as likely that the accountants overestimated how much money they had as that they lost track of how much was spent.

    So you take incredibly poor accounting procedures and add a bunch of baseless speculation and change a few key words and voila you have a big conspiracy theory built on nothing at all.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Yes, Pablo. I’ve heard him lots of times on Coast-to-Coast-AM with George Noory. Thanks!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Pablo,

    If you had looked into any of this yourself you would have found out that one of the main agendas of the globalists is to cull the planet either through genocide or the birthrate of just those 80% that you are referring to.

    I thought you might say this. You’re confusing individual human psychology with the psychology of the collective human organism, which are very different things.

    The flaw with that particular scheme is that the same people will not necessarily behave the same way in all group situations. So, for example, someone who makes a living as an office drone might, upon finding themselves in a building that was on fire, suddenly take a leadership role in helping people escape.

    This is what dictators and other genocidal maniacs always fail to understand. However much you cull, you are always going to end up with that approximate 10/80/10 ratio. It’s what makes us so predictably unpredictable!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Very good point, Doc! Hurray for the human spirit. So even if Pablo is right, it’s not the end of the world.

  • Clavos

    B-tone,

    I know you have done some work as an extra in some films as I have. However, I don’t believe that makes you an expert regarding what it takes to be an actor.

    I have been acting live on stage (mostly regional and dinner theaters) for just over fifty years, in several different cities and three states. I have acted on Equity stages and in SAG films. Among the leading roles I have played (I have had support roles too numerous to count) are Norman in On Golden Pond, George in Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf, Paul Verrall in Born Yesterday, Elwood P. Dowd in Harvey, etc., etc.

    I know what acting entails, which is the basis of my statement here, as well as of my previous comments on other threads regarding stage vs film acting.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Addendum to #146:

    Gilbert Ryle referred to this confusion as Category Mistake.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Roger @ #146:

    Indeed. And if Pablo is right, he’s living proof of that!

  • Les Slater

    This is not fundamentally a financial crisis. It is an accelerating crisis of the capitalist system itself. It has been preceded by a long decline in capital investment in productive industry.

    A bubble of credit has been subsidized by the poorest of workers in the U.S. and by cheap labor elsewhere in the world.

    Those with capital, especially in other countries exporting to the U.S., who were also exporting much of their profits to feed the credit bubble are finding that their returns of the credit bubble are collapsing along with the markets for their products.

  • Cindy D

    Les,

    What do you think it means if they want to nationalize the banks?

  • Cindy D

    Aside from what it says about the state of affairs.

  • Les Slater

    The banks aren’t working and they think nationalizing them will solve most of their problems, at least the most immediate of them, preventing a full collapse of the capitalist’s financial system.

  • Les Slater

    But that’s not their fundamental problem. See 150 above.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    #150:

    Hundred percent right, Les. The entire system is cracking, as I tried to argue on the pages of one my first articles on BC. Some call is a meltdown, others a slow burn.

  • Cindy D

    At Davos, Crisis Culls the Guest List

    This year, politicians, not corporate titans, are poised to be the big draw, echoing the broader power shift away from the free market as one government after another tries to prop up its sinking economy.

    This time, the prototype of the jet-setting “Davos Man” may well be Gordon Brown, the dour British prime minister who spent last week staving off another round of bank failures in London.

    And with much of the financial system in Britain and the United States edging toward a government takeover, the 2009 agenda at Davos, “Shaping the Post-Crisis World,” seems to have concentrated minds on the here and now more than past themes like climate change and globalization.

    “The pendulum has swung and power has moved back to governments,” said Klaus Schwab, the German-born economics professor who founded the World Economic Forum in 1971 and has been its impresario ever since. “This is the biggest economic crisis since Davos began.”

  • Cindy D

    I guess that’s what I wondered, meltdown or slow burn.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Good link!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    At comment 133:

    I didn’t say that 9/11 was a false flag operation conducted by Israel – though Olmert did get an Australian Jewish businessman to buy the property before it was destroyed, and knowing what I know about Olmert, some money did get into Olmert’s pocket.

    Two parties benefited from a false flag operation directly – the American government; they got the excuse to impose draconian and dictatorial laws that have done away with liberty in the States – and the Arab terrorists who actually flew the jets into the buildings; they got to look like they were really doing damage to the United States. And you know what? They did. The American government has wasted more money “fighting terror” than most of us will make in our entire lifetimes.

    The result? The bubbles of prosperity that the financial mismanagement of the economy blew up burst; our soldiers are over-extended in a war that seems to continue for no reason at all; the Russians get stronger by the day; Arab and Iranian terrorists are now real powers on the planet- and the mobs who support them are enough to chase a whole squad of bobbies down a London street.

    Then, there were those who benefited indirectly from 9/11. Was it on purpose? This I can’t say. But somehow some of that $6 billion insurance settlement probably made it into Olmert’s pocket.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Clav,

    I simply believe that your observations regarding film acting are inaccurate. I understand that a director may take and retake a scene numerous times. That is not necessarily indicative that the job of film acting is not difficult. It has it’s own set of parameters which don’t apply to stage acting. It’s a whole different ball game when you realize that on the silver screen a close up will render a person’s nose 4 feet in length.

    Now, I’ve seen some really terrible acting both on stage and screen. Frankly, I think it’s a travesty that people who have little or no talent are allowed to perform at times in high profile productions simply because of their looks.

    But, I’ve also seen and been involved in both stage and screen productions with people having a high level of ability and who generally displayed a superior intellect.

    I don’t imagine that there is a great deal of esoteric discussions going on around the sets of Rob Schneider or “Booty Call” type films. I worked on “Eight Men Out” and “Hoosiers” among others. Most of the cast members I had some contact with were articulate and could carry on conversations about a number of topics with intelligence.

    B

  • zingzing

    clavos: “I know what acting entails, which is the basis of my statement here, as well as of my previous comments on other threads regarding stage vs film acting.”

    it also proves that you’re a snob. don’t worry, i’m a snob too. we could snob each other. snob snob snob. mmm, such sweet snobbin’. i wanna be snobbin’ all night with you, baby.

  • Clavos

    B-tone,

    I simply believe that your observations regarding film acting are inaccurate.

    Back atcha!

    Guess we’ll just have to call it a draw.

  • Zedd

    The Republicans have been talking about standing by their President for years. I never got it but it was one of multitudes of Republican sentimental things. It was at least consistent.

    I saw the Demi adds and thought, “they have lost their minds”.

    I will not get behind any elected official. They need to get to work and do a good job. Its just that simple. They are merely the candidate that I wanted for the job. I may agree with their vision and do my best to help it come to life, and that commitment is only because we share the same vision, not because i am standing behind them.

    I have thought however that it would be good if Obama could do a version of the fire side chats. No TV, just radio.

  • paulwhoispablo

    Nalle 143

    An accounting error pal bigger than the total size of the federal debt at the time? Sure Davey, and some people will believe anything. Particularly YOU. hehehe

    The fact is that it is missing 2.3 trillion bucks, and you call that an accounting error. Not to mention the fact that the next day 9/11 happened and we have heard nary a word about the missing trillions.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    It wasn’t the next day, Pablo. It was 3 months after the problem was announced in the report, and two years after the accounting actually took place. And the same procedures remained in place for several years. They managed to be off by another $1.1 trillion in 2000.

    It’s all been pretty well investigated. The money was never “missing”. Most likely it never even existed. For all the bad said about Rumsfeld, his pursuit of these sloppy accounting methods and improvements he implemented in DOD procedures are a major legacy.

    Dave

  • paulwhoispablo

    Nalle 165

    “It wasn’t the next day, Pablo.”

    Rumsfeldt announces missing 2.3 trillion dollars on 9/10/2001

    Yes it was in point of FACT the next day Nalle.

    “It’s all been pretty well investigated. The money was never “missing””

    Care to provide some references for that assertion buddy? [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    who knew Leni used computer graphics and high-def video cameras?

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Pablo, try to pay attention.

    Rumsfeld did not “announce” the $2.3 trillion on 9/10, he mentioned it as an example of the problems with the Pentagon accounting system. The CBS report which you and everyone links to on this doesn’t even show Rumsfeld’s statement. The reporter paraphrases it. Here’s the quote in context:

    “The technology revolution has transformed organizations across the private sector, but not ours, not fully, not yet. We are, as they say, tangled in our anchor chain. Our financial systems are decades old. According to some estimates, we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions. We cannot share information from floor to floor in this building because it’s stored on dozens of technological systems that are inaccessible or incompatible.”

    Note that he’s talking about problems tracking the money, not that it was lost or wasted or not spent properly, just that they don’t have sufficient records on how it was used.

    Additionally, it remains a fact, and you cannot dispute or disprove it, that the $2.3 trillion was reported publicly by Assistant Pentagon IG Robert Lieberman in May of 2000, both in his printed report and in testimony before the Subcommittee on Government Management, Information and Technology of the House Government Reform Committee.

    It was then subsequently mentioned publicly a year later in the 2001 IG’s report and in further congressional testimony at that time.

    So by the time Rumsfeld made his off-hand reference to it the problem had been a matter of public record for 17 months. In fact, numerous articles had been written about it during that period and even before the report was released, because the information was leaked more than a month before the report came out. For example, see this LA Times article.

    As I said, this is typical of the half-informed conjecture which is the basis for these foolish conspiracy theories.

    Dave

  • paulwhoispablo

    Nalle 168

    Perhaps you can show me where I said that the speech Rusmsfeldt gave on 9/10/2001 was the first disclosure of the missing funds, because I did not say this at all.

    To dismiss as accounting errors such a vast sum of money is absurd on its face Nalle. The fact is that the dough remains un-accounted for thus missing, and when you have such a vast amount of taxpayer money missing the chance that it was absconded with it astronimical.

    I am still waiting for you to show me as you asserted that the problem has been taken care of, (that is where is the fucking loot?), and I am quite sure that you cannot, so the money still remains missing.

    Accounting errors my buttocks Nalle. 2.3 trillion dollars, sure buddy.

  • Clavos

    Economies of scale…

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Thanks for helping to demonstrate another way that these conspiracy theories develop for me. In this case faulty logic. Asking me to account for the whereabouts of something which never existed except as conjecture is a variant of the False Dilemma form of logical fallacy which assumes conclusions which don’t actually derive from the facts provided.

    The fact that the IG’s office says that there’s $2.3 trillion which they cannot account for doesn’t mean that it is missing, it means that they know their methodology is potentially that inaccurate. The money may never have existed and was just created on the books by their poor accounting, or it existed and was spent but not accurately tracked. No one in a position of any knowledge has ever claimed it was misappropriated or misdirected. If you read the IG’s report he suggests the possibility that it never existed as one of the options.

    The point is that there IS NO “fucking loot” to be accounted for, except in your imagination.

    Dave

  • Ma(rk Ede)n

    …or maybe there is.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    True enough, Mark. But there’s no proof of any quality one way or the other, thereby allowing Pablo to wallow in his delusions.

    Dave

  • paulwhoispablo

    sure dave

  • Les Slater

    Notice the focus of Paul’s argument has changed from the emphasis that the money was discovered/announced ‘missing’ on the day before 9/11 to one to it that it was indeed ‘missing’, no longer associating it with 9/11.

    This is truly a backtracking on his premise while still trying to maintain the vibrato of his imagined correctness.

  • Cindy D

    Paul,

    I don’t understand the part where you said that the goal of the elite is to cull the population via genocide or birth control.

    Genocide is possible in other countries (where there is an installed or supported a dictator), where it can be supported behind the scenes. My understanding of this is it’s: 1) for spreading fear and controlling opposition from the people or 2) having those backed move in and take over to install gavernment that can support Capitalism as oppsed to socialism or some other thing the people themselves want.

    But, in a relatively free country like the U.S., where people like Capitalism, this is unecessary and won’t work.

    Here’s what I think (subject to change at any moment):

    The goal of the elite is what it’s always been, money and power. The best way to achieve this goal in the U.S. has been to have a relatively content population. Relatively satisfied. Unaware via most news sources of any wrongdoing on the part of the U.S. Propaganda that says the U.S. is relatively great and good (in all media and education).

    How can one make money and achieve power with an unhappy population? The population is what makes everything work. Maybe that is why they were supporting Obama. I think they need the population to go back to calm and ignorant and content.

  • M(ark E)den

    Cindy, maybe one has to be a 33rd level poobah to be privy to the ‘actual agenda’…post capitalist sustainability…(100% automation and therefore no exploitation?)…500000000 or bust!…

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    “It doesn’t take a lot of brains to be an actor.”

    In what other profession does your job require nothing more than to be told where to stand, how to feel, and what to say? And in what other job can you call a 5-year-old a “colleague?”

  • Clavos

    500000000 or bust!

    It has even been carved in granite…

  • Cindy D

    M(ark E)den,

    100% automation? Is that really necessary? They could just feed them to the machines.

  • Cindy D

    I’m sorry to hear Yoko Ono is a conspirator.

  • M(ark E)den

    I’m sorry to hear Yoko at all.

  • Cindy D

    lol

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    In what other profession does your job require nothing more than to be told where to stand, how to feel, and what to say?

    The army.

    And in what other job can you call a 5-year-old a “colleague?”

    The army in certain parts of sub-Saharan Africa.

  • bliffle

    Wow! Dave gives high praise, indeed!

    “In a video which could have come straight out of Leni Riefenstahl’s cutting room,…”

  • zingzing

    mark and cindy need to admit that they’ve never even heard a yoko ono album.

    admit it.

  • M(ark E)den
  • Cindy D

    zing, i heard yoko ono on john lennon’s albums.

    (makes a note that zing listens to yoko ono, in case the connection may be needed in the future)

  • Cindy D

    paul mccartney is trying to create some feedback loud enough to drown that out.

  • zingzing

    cindy–oh, so you heard double fantasy, eh? ono mops the floor with lennon on that one. other than the fact that lennon’s new songs reveal an infantile house daddy with not a bit of his old bite, ono’s songs are sharp and were highly influential. plus, the release of ono’s “walking on thin ice” around the same time was the best song lennon had anything to do with (he mixed and played guitar) since at least 1973. (he died with the final mix in his hands, as he had just completed it that night.)

    but mark, that was pretty damn awesome, especially the first part. now go pick up ono’s plastic ono band (released at the same time as john’s pob) and be ready to be amazed. she was so far ahead of her time, it’s not even funny. it’s minimalist trance krautrock before the germans even had a clue.

  • Cindy D

    yes double fantasy. that’s the one i had.

    what i like about yoko ono is that when people come over and ask what those things are in the fruit drawer, because of yoko’s pioneering, i can say “art”

    prince and yoko ono…

  • zingzing

    walking on thin ice

    check it out.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Condescending and insincere [some of it, not all of it] I’ll grant you, but “ominous” is silly. And the national day of service itself was a perfectly fine idea.

    I’d compare this to American Idol’s “Idol Gives Back” charity events rather than to Orwell’s 1984. Glitzy and aimed at those who don’t, you know, read much.

    There is a cult of personality around Obama, but a great deal of it stems from his refreshing aura of confident competence. The paranoia of the right is amusing but a real stretch, as usual.

  • Hope and Change?

    Can you take Beatlemania to the music section please….

  • zingzing

    h&c–no.

  • Clavos

    The self-appointed Thread Police…

  • Cindy D

    zing, interesting, here is as weird as i get…the cure

    you have a very open mind, very cool.

    (i didn’t mind yoko on doublefantasy)

  • Cindy D

    h&c did you just pop in to boss everyone around? or do we get another installment of hope and change?

  • zingzing

    what’s banned word #6?

  • Cindy D

    lol how many potentially banned words were you trying?

  • zingzing

    i have no idea… i can’t see anything in there that should be banned… but i dunno.

  • Cindy D

    i take out a sentence/paragraph at a time until i find it

    gotta be something that people spam with

  • zingzing

    the cure was probably my first musical love. well, that’s not true. achtung baby by u2 was… but it was disintegration that i remember absolutely killing during a 2 week trek around minnesota when i was 13 or 14.

    but it was probably brian eno (who i got into through u2) that really set me off on my musical path. his early solo albums (73-77) were so strange and wonderful, then he went off down his am-bient (here’s the banned word) road and that led me into a bunch of different avant guard stuff.

    but then in high school, the late-of-blogcritics michael j. west showed me the black album by prince and i was floored. that was about 15 years ago at this point and now i’m a voracious music consumer with my fingers (well, ears,) in nearly every musical genre.

    music is the greatest form of art, i say, and the stranger, the better. although there is a place for pop music in all of that. kanye west’s new album is driving me crazy right now, but then again, so is animal collective.

  • zingzing

    thanks for the advice. got it. it’s that sleep drug in the second paragraph.

  • zingzing

    ooer. if you do click on that animal collective link, click on the hd youtube link at the bottom. much better quality.

  • Cindy D

    zing, i LOVE that! i looked up the lyrics (in case i might not have liked it :-) great lyrics. i’ll keep that band. thanks.

    but, oh, i almost forgot my favorite band-very weird! you know them?

    they might be giants –
    we want a rock
    birdhouse in your soul
    dead (sorry dumb garfield video, but the rest are live and suck)

    course i like all the weird stuff from the old dr demento show (thanks to my demented uncle)

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    I agree with Bliffle. Any video with Yoko in it ought to have been directed by Leni Reifenstahl.

    BTW, They Might Be Giants are very popular with my 6-year-old.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    cindy: “zing, i LOVE that! i looked up the lyrics (in case i might not have liked it :-) great lyrics. i’ll keep that band. thanks.”

    definitely go check them out. my girls is from their latest, merriweather post pavilion, and you can work back from there. they’ve grown into the band they are now… working back, you’ll find “sung tongs,” which is a folky album, but very screwed up in the process.

    if you keep on going, you’ll run into their murky beginnings… they started out as a nearly improvisational noise band. (their first, “spirit they’re gone” is a bit of an anomaly… it’s noisy, but piano-based, and extremely beautiful.) their career trajectory is just about the most fucked up thing possible. and they are probably the most awe-inspiring band currently working in rock music. magicians, they are.

    i’ve heard tmbg. they do interesting things within pop music forms. there’s a layer to them that’s not immediately apparent, and, dave, if you’re letting your 6 year old kid listen to them, you might want to more closely inspect just what it is you’re up to.

    also, dave, you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to yoko, obviously. and to anyone who can’t get past yoko’s vocal style and doesn’t get to the substance of her ideas, well, you’re just missing out. it’s like not liking oysters because they’re ugly. grow up and take it like a man.

  • Cindy D

    yeah they do a lotta kid’s stuff now

    (i like that too, especially this one)

    dr worm

    the original TMBG video was better.

  • Cindy D

    tmbg turned into a kid’s band zing (partly)

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    To go back a bit to another of Pablo’s lunatic fallacies, let’s look at the 80% population reduction plan of the New World Order.

    This myth is very similar to the North American Union fantasy, where someone in a think tank wrote an article discussing the idea and the conspiracy nuts immediately concluded it was a plan of the NWO.

    In the case of the 80% population reduction myth, it was an idea discussed by a handful of radical environmental fanatics, and even they didn’t suggest killing people to achieve the goal. The idea was to implement forced birth control to stabilize population at about 2 billion people. But read some of the quotes from these people. They’re clearly insane. And they certainly aren’t setting policy for any international organization.

    But as with other conspiracies, the loonies latch onto the idea and build up a big fantasy that it’s policy rather than the belief of a powerless, cultlike fringe. So silly.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    tmbg are a kids’ band now? ish. what next?

  • Cindy D

    there’s a layer to them that’s not immediately apparent

    yes, exactly

  • Brunelleschi

    Maybe the $700B the banks got will be dismissed the same way.

    “We spent it on our rich friends, so it never existed..”

  • Cindy D

    I want to know what Paul/Pablo proposes we do? It seems to me that he proposes the same system minus the elite. How can that work? The whole thing is based on a wealthy class and slavery.

    Paul?

  • Cindy D

    zing/Dave,

    Look what They Might Be Giants is teaching Dave’s daughter. LOL

    Never Go To Work

    No wonder they decided to do kids songs. They probably gave up on adults. Dave I have hope for your daughter. lol