Today on Blogcritics
Home » On the Road to Argentina and Tyranny

On the Road to Argentina and Tyranny

Please Share...Print this pageTweet about this on Twitter0Share on Facebook0Share on Google+0Pin on Pinterest0Share on TumblrShare on StumbleUpon0Share on Reddit0Email this to someone

With the election almost upon us and most polls showing Barack Obama with a substantial lead, many people are wondering what the future might look like with the Democratic party in control of the White house and both houses of Congress.

Speculation and fearmongering abound. Obama's Marxist background and openly socialist rhetoric have raised fears despite the moderate positions and conciliatory statements which have characterized his campaign. Talk of redistributing wealth and proposals for raising taxes on corporations, small businesses and individuals are a cause for concern. How will Obama pay for all of his promises and massive expansion of social welfare programs without huge tax increases? Based on the extraordinary level of hate-filled rhetoric coming from leftist partisans it's hard not to believe that they will be out for political revenge once they come to power.

It's unlikely that every dire scenario and gloomy prediction will come true, but recent events may be giving us a sign of what is to come. There is no question that Obama will need money for further bailouts, to pay for new programs like socialized medicine and just to meet already existing obligations and ballooning debt from entitlement programs. There is an absolute limit to how much he can raise from taxes, even if he taxes the middle class at unprecedented levels.

Yet there is one source of substantial wealth which could be tapped into, the nation's investment in pensions and private retirement plans. Pension funds, 401k plans and personal IRA accounts have a total value of trillions of dollars. If the government were to seize those assets and then replace them with low-yield, low-risk government bonds of equivalent value, it would give the government a huge cash infusion, and offer a more stable alternative to private citizens than controlling their own retirement investments. It would essentially be a second plan similar to social security. It might cause devastation in the stock market and retirement savings would probably grow more slowly than inflation, but President Obama would be able to pay his massive bills.

We can already see the model of this plan being implemented in Argentina, where socialist President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner is preparing to seize private pension plans with a value of about $30 billion to keep her government operating and make credit available as Argentina faces the same kind of banking and credit crisis which is afflicting many other nations worldwide. In response to this plan Argentina's stock market fell 13%, further contributing to the worldwide financial crisis.

Congressional Democrats are already discussing similar proposals. Listening to the advice of economist Teresa Ghilarducci of New York's New School, Representative George Miller,  chairman of the House Education and Labor Committee and Representative Jim McDermot who chairs the House Ways and Means Committee's Subcommittee on Income Security and Family Support, are seriously considering eliminating tax breaks for 401k accounts and redirecting future 401k funds into a system of government-run retirement accounts to which all workers would be required to contribute. Individuals would no longer control those investments, but would instead be required to invest in government bonds with a yield of only 3%.

The details have not all been worked out, and while it would not amount to outright seizure of assets, it would take away the tax benefits which encouraged people to invest in 401k plans in the first place; taking away future earnings and replacing them with a new social security style plan with a yield lower than the rate of inflation. Our current 401k plans would become regular stock accounts and 5% of our future earnings would go into government held treasury bill accounts.  The 3% interest on those accounts would be added to our Social Security payments, while the government would keep the principal in the account for its own use. Paying 5% a year for a 3% return in the future really isn't a very attractive deal.

This $80 billion in bonus revenue and the gradual future infusions of cash into the government coffers from this plan will only provide a fraction of the additional revenue the Obama administration will need. Once they start down the road of taking private investment benefits away, why should they stop? Who could stop them if they control both houses of Congress and the presidency? The demand for money will far exceed what they can raise from taxes, and there's an awful lot of money sitting in private pension plans, IRAs and other retirement accounts. Why not take it all and pay the owners in government promises?

Of course, all of these different retirement accounts are the result of agreements between workers and their employers or citizens and their government. They are essentially contracts, and the sanctity of contracts is the most fundamental cornerstone of the law. When you put your money into a 401k, you did so on the basis of promises made to you by the government about how that money would be treated in the future. Without those promises you might have kept the money and used it for something entirely different. You scrimped and saved and denied yourself the benefits of that money you earned, and, if Obama and the Democrats have their way, you may not get the benefits they promised.   Or, if they follow the Argentine model, you may lose all control over that money, trading it for a few hundred dollars added onto your social security check at a rate set at the whim of government bureaucrats.

There is a marked tendency among those who have been too long in government and especially those who subscribe to the share-the-wealth philosophy of socialism, to believe that all money essentially belongs to government and that it is only in the hands of private citizens because government chooses to let them keep it, at least temporarily. For them, the needs of government are greater than the rights of the citizens; once they reach the limit of what they can feed into the giant maw of the state from taxation, they will start to look for back-door taxes, and pensions and retirement accounts will be hard to resist.

This attitude is fundamentally wrong. It is a critical violation of the right to own property and enjoy the fruits of your labor, which is part of natural law; fought for in the revolution, explicitly recognized in the Bill of Rights. The money in your 401k, or any other retirement plan, is not the government's money. It is not your employer's money. It does not belong to the collective population. It doesn't belong to the "less fortunate." It is your money and belongs to no one else. When government tries to take it in violation of the terms they previously agreed to, they are no longer a legitimate government. On that day they will have become tyrants.

Powered by

About Dave Nalle

Dave Nalle is Executive Director of the Texas Liberty Foundation, Chairman of the Center for Foreign and Defense Policy, South Central Regional Director for the Republican Liberty Caucus and an advisory board member at the Coalition to Reduce Spending. He was Texas State Director for the Gary Johnson Presidential campaign, an adviser to the Ted Cruz senatorial campaign, Communications Director for the Travis County Republican Party and National Chairman of the Republican Liberty Caucus. He has also consulted on many political campaigns, specializing in messaging. Before focusing on political activism, he owned or was a partner in several businesses in the publishing industry and taught college-level history for 20 years.
  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    “Things would be a lot easier in a dictatorship, so long as I’m the dictator.” George W. Bush

    Bush: My aides will ignore the Congressional subpoenas
    Palin: My aides will ignore the Congressional subpoenas

    Cheney: The VP is NOT part of the executive branch.

    Bush: “Stop throwing the Constitution in my face! It’s just a god****ed piece of paper!” (said to Republican leadership questioning the constitutionality of the Patriot Act)

    Yes, Dave, we certainly should be careful of tyrants, of those who feel themselves to be above the law.

  • Lumpy

    for all that bush has reduced government interference in the lives of millions and his worst excesses have hurt less than a handful of americans.

  • bliffle

    Did I understand aright, that Dave is in favor of socializing private pensions? This is exactly the opposite of privatizing Social Security. Never thought I’d see the day.

    The Tax Policy Center says that the McCain tax cuts will reduce revenue $3.6trillion over 10 years and Obama will cost $2.7trillion (sounds like Obama wins that one).

    Tax Policy Center

    How to pay for it?

    One of the big fat pigs in the budgets of Americans is our healthcare system, which costs about 15% of GDP ($14T/year), about $2T/year. Most modern industrial nations spend 6%, 8% or maybe 10%.

    We spend a lot of money every year for the exquisite pleasure of seeing poor impoverished people suffer and die because they can’t afford our health insurance rates.

    We may have to give up that pleasure. I know it’s hard, and I know that many people will complain that they will be deprived of retiring to their plush offices, putting their feet up on that acre-sized mahogany desk, and opening the newspaper to read another heart-wrenching story about some poor sucker who got stiff-armed by the medical system until he finally died.

    But it may be necessary to Make The Sacrifice. To cover President McCains proposed new deficits we’ll need $360billion/year, assuming linear amortization.

    If we go to Universal Healthcare single payer system we can reduce net healthcare cost from 15% to 10%, at least, which means from $2.1T to $1.4T, a savings of $700billion per year.

    Hey! That covers it. And leaves money to pay the war expenses! Whooppee! Why didn’t we do this years ago?

    We can even get the US government to put money back into the SS fund that it borrowed in the past.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Did I understand aright, that Dave is in favor of socializing private pensions?

    No, you didn’t get the article at all.

    This is exactly the opposite of privatizing Social Security. Never thought I’d see the day.

    You didn’t.

    Bliffle, what we would sacrifice with socialized medicine would be our quality of care, speed and efficiency of care and ultimately our lives.

    Under our current system it is not the poor and impoverished who suffer and die. They are covered by Medicaid. It is the working class people who don’t make health insurance a priority – at least in part because it is expensive.

    What socialized medicine does is make sure that they are all covered, but the cost is that everyone dies sooner and the suffering is spread around.

    Dave

  • Arch Conservative

    “Pension funds, 401k plans and personal IRA accounts have a total value of trillions of dollars. If the government were to seize those assets and then replace them with low-yield, low-risk government bonds of equivalent value, it would give the government a huge cash infusion, and offer a more stable alternative to private citizens than controlling their own retirement investments.”

    I think if they tried it there’d fianlly be blood in the streets Dave.

  • Bennett

    HaHa! This piece was good for a laugh or two. It’s comforting to know that damn near everyone who reads it understands that Dave’s Spin and Lie Machine adds very little to the debate, other than hot air and bombast.

    Lumpy “and his worst excesses have hurt less than a handful of americans.”

    Tell that to the families of our dead soldiers.

  • bliffle

    Medicaid? Anybody know a doctor who’ll take a Medicaid patient? Or even a Medicare patient?

    Our private healthcare system is better than any government agency could ever be at stiffing people, refusing them service, and sending them away.

  • Cannonshop

    #8 Leaving aside that portion of your comment in which you shit on Vets and treat their families like garbage for a moment, SIR…

    The ARTICLE is about the possibility of Congressional actions to PLUNDER the people, in the NAME of “The People”. SIR.

    The passage of the $700Billion bailout of Wall-Street Billionaires at taxpayer expense, and the ease with which a supermajority in the Senate and a majority in the congress, backed by a President of the same PARTY to execute such plunder as Mr. Nalle speculates is a real, and serious, possibility.

    SIR.

    This is particularly true with the kind of friendly media that the party-most-likely-to-hold power has-a Media that refuses to question questionable dealings by incumbents including Chuck Rangel, Chris Dodd, Nancy Pelosi, and Barney Frank (the likeliest architects of such a move, given their positions within the congress, committee seats and such) makes this a real, as in very, very, real, possibility. A government that has no fear of the People and believes it can mollify them with the plunder of the treasury will do exactly the sort of things Mr. Nalle suggests. Particularly in the absence of a strong opposition party, and in the presence of massive amounts of slush-fund-money that can be derived if the benefits happen to go to the right sets of hands (Donors, media types, etc.)

    SIR.

  • Bennett

    WTF are you talking about? Sir?

    In no way was I shitting on the Vets or Families, just reminding Lumpy that “his worst excesses have hurt” a hell of a lot more than a “handfull of americans”.

    Get it?

    Not my fault Dave has lost all credibility.

    Relax Dude, it’s not the end of the world any more than the current admin…. never mind.

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    Dave the only crystal ball you seem to be consulting is your balled-up fist shaking at the wind. You and your ilk have no intuition. And that’s a plus for those of us who do. Just like you guys called your own side all wrong. I was rooting for Mitt, and just dissed Obama as an empty suit…NOTHING you say could interest me in terms of predictions.

    Tyranny and dictatorships?–Bring it!!

    Heloise

  • Clavos

    Anybody know a doctor who’ll take a Medicaid patient? Or even a Medicare patient?

    I don’t know about Medicaid, but every one of my wife’s drs (12-14 of ’em in the past year) has taken Medicare without objection.

    In fact, I haven’t met a Dr yet who refused it. There’s no reason for them to do so, because Medicare sets the fee standards these days, and all the insurance companies follow suit, so they (the drs) don’t get paid less by taking Medicare.

  • troll

    Dave – what’s the fucking difference – ?

    we can nationalize the pension system and watch the government piss away wealth or we can privatize it and watch trillions evaporate in market fluctuations

    (in either case the wealth re-materializes in the hands of the big shots)

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    “Speculation and fearmongering abound. Obama’s Marxist background and openly socialist rhetoric…”

    You wrote that without even blinking, didn’t you, Dave?

  • http://jonsobel.com Jon Sobel

    “Obama’s Marxist background”?
    [shakes head, returns attention to events on planet Earth where – hey, look, socialism! There’s some, in Scandinavia. There’s some in an obscure Arctic state (oops, that’s Alaska – hush up everybody)]

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    When are you going to write about the tango, Dave? We cashed out our pensions to move here, and the only thing about Argentina that interests me is the tango.

    If you must talk about Argentina, move on to other topics. You can write about how their currency and banking system collapsed a while ago, sparking major aliya to this countries by middle class Jews who suddenly found that they were poor.

  • Arch Conservative

    Dave, at the rate this site is going you might as well be attempting reasonable and rational discourse with the regulars on the daily kos.

    Half of the people that support Obama are sociliasts like him and the other half are weak minded idiots that he has fooled.

    I just hope that the pendulum doesn’t swing so far to left this time that it gets stuck over there for good.

  • zingzing

    dave: “Obama’s Marxist background and openly socialist rhetoric have raised fears despite the moderate positions and conciliatory statements which have characterized his campaign.”

    he’s not a marxist. he’s not socialist. i’m surprised that you, who should be able to recognize the two when they are truly there, would really be confused about it at this point. he’s no more socialist than you are.

    “Based on the extraordinary level of hate-filled rhetoric coming from leftist partisans it’s hard not to believe that they will be out for political revenge once they come to power.”

    what’s so ‘extraordinary’ about it? is it on the level with some of the right’s “kill him!” and “n*gger!” fun we’ve all heard at mccain rallies? political revenge… sheesh. you’re running scared at this point.

    “There is no question that Obama will need money for further bailouts…”

    are they on the level with mccain’s “i’ll buy your fucking mortgage!” proposal? now that’s some fucking stupid shit right there.

    “There is a marked tendency among those who have been too long in government and especially those who subscribe to the share-the-wealth philosophy of socialism, to believe that all money essentially belongs to government and that it is only in the hands of private citizens because government chooses to let them keep it, at least temporarily. For them, the needs of government are greater than the rights of the citizens…”

    who actually believes this shit? the same kind of people who like to get beaten during sex? the shit-eaters? there’s got to be some sort of sickness going on… or it doesn’t really exist in any real sort of way. no one really thinks like this.

    “This attitude is fundamentally wrong.”

    it’s fundamentally stupid. but don’t let that stop you from thinking “maybe i’m making it all up.”

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    @ #15: Ruvy, if you’re interested in tango, check out some of Terence Clarke‘s articles for Blogcritics. He’s an excellent writer who sadly, because of his somewhat specialized subject matter, doesn’t get the readership he deserves.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    And just so we’re clear about all this ‘spread the wealth’ nonsense which has gotten the He’saSocialistHe’saSocialistHe’saSocialist! brigade even more inflamed than they already were, here’s what Obama actually said to Joe the Plumber:

    “It’s not that I want to punish your success,” Obama said. “I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they’ve got a chance at success too.”

    “Seems like you would be welcome to a flat tax then,” Wurzelbacher said.

    “You know, I would be open to it except for here’s the problem with a flat tax,” Obama countered. “You’d have to slap on a whole bunch of sales taxes on it. And I do believe that for folks like me who have worked hard but, frankly, also been lucky, I don’t mind paying just a little bit more than the waitress who I just met over there who — things are slow, and she can barely make the rent. Because my attitude is if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s going to be good for everybody. If you’ve got a plumbing business, you’re going to be better off if you’ve got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you. And right now, everybody’s so pinched that business is bad for everybody. And I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.”

    Source: Politifact

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    DD,

    While not casting any mud on a fellow writer, like Mr. Clarke, Dave could look at the real problems America faces on the way to being like Argentina – that banking collapse is just one sample of what is coming y(our) way, amigo.

    Frankly, at the moment, I’m editing quarterly reports of firms who are trying hard to stretch terms to cover the disaster this last quarter was.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Not to take issue with your doomsaying, Ruvy, but I will say that I visited Argentina a couple of years after the collapse of the peso and it was doing just fine.

  • bliffle

    I’ll second that recommendation to read Terence Clarkes articles: they are excellent.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Medicaid? Anybody know a doctor who’ll take a Medicaid patient? Or even a Medicare patient?

    Yes, actually. In my volunteer work for our rural community center I regularly have contact with doctors and dentists who work almost exclusively for Medicaid patients and in many cases will not take patients who are not on medicaid. One of them does well enough with his practice that every time I try to find him instead of one of his junior partners he seems to have flown down to Rio for a week or two.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Bennett, Zing – you’re so far gone into partisanship I’m not going to waste my time on you anymore.

    Heloise – gibberish and/or gibbering.

    Ruvy – my daughter is studying tango. seems like fun.

    Argentina – yes, it’s the worst case scenario for all economic mistakes. Its economy crashes and burns once a decade. The one thing you can be sure of is that if Argentina does something it’s a bad idea.

    Archie, Cannon – get ready to put up with at least 2 more years of this ridiculous, delusional bullshit.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    And I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.”

    Except, of course, for those from whom it’s being spread.

    Not wishing to have my rather modest wealth spread around, I’ll not be voting for Mr. Obama.

  • Bennett

    “so far gone into partisanship”

    Oh, I’m not particularly partisan, Dave. I vote for whomever I think will do the best job for my community, my state, my country, and the world, in general.

    You, on the other hand, are rabidly partisan. You’re willing to distort damn near every issue, and twist most facts to fit your peculiar world view.

    “I’m not going to waste my time on you anymore”

    Poor me!

  • http://profiles.yahoo.com.ar/cearietti Carlos Arietti

    Is incredible the ignorance that this article shows about the situation of my country, Argentina. During all the 90s, we followed the policies ordered by the IMF and the Washington consensus (privatization, free markets, etc.). The result? Our worst economic and social crisis, in 2002. In the article “socialism” is critized. Well, what i see in the USA dominated by an extreme right administration IS socialism, but in the opposite direction: billions and billions of the State given to save bankers, wall street, etc. If someone wants to follow Argentina, i can suggest to begin to respect the international law, suscribe all treaties about human rights and elimination of mass destruction weapons, put domestic criminal wars on trial, etc. Only then, i think that someone can speak about my country.

  • zingzing

    dave: “you’re so far gone into partisanship I’m not going to waste my time on you anymore.”

    dave, you’ve got to admit you’re at least as far right as i am far left. or you’re as far whatever-you-want-to-call-yourself as i am far whatever-i-want-to-call-myself.

    at least i’m not afraid/too uppity to talk to someone.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Clav, have you actually figure out how much Obama will cost you personally in taxes? There’s a website for that. Or are you just talking…..

    like Dave.

    About things of which you, apparently, know little. Like Dave and his fixation on the evilness of South America.

    Really, Dave. South America is NOT the Axis of Evil. I promnise you that. Been there, lived there. It isn’t. Listen to Carlos. And others.
    Stop fear mongering.

  • moon

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    I couldn’t force myself to read beyond the first page of his rant–too much foam came out of his mouth when he wrote it and covered the computer screen.

    Nalle’s [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] complete ignorance of everything to do with Latin America.

    Mexico privatized the pension program of non-state workers in the late 90s. Fortunately I was able to liquidate my pension balance at age 60–just before the previous PAN administration decided that the AFORES (private pension funds operated by a fistful of banks here) could be invested in the Mexican stock market.

    I probably don’t have to tell you the number of billions of dollars that has cost the folks still in the system–sufficient to say that the last quarterly reports were in NEGATIVE NUMBERS.

    And the worst is yet to come.

    Folks have lost, on an average, 40% of their balances since January.

    And THAT is precisely what Argentina’s government is trying to avoid having happen.

    It was only 7 years ago that the cry in Argentina was QUE SE VAYAN TODOS–because Menem’s privatization of EVERYTHING in the country left it bankrupt. Banks had grabbed folks’ savings and sent them to the Caymans and accountholders were unable to withdraw THEIR money. This led to a handful of governments being formed and falling in a few weeks.

    An excellent documentary on the Argentinian disaster by Fernando (Pino) Solanas came out in the spring of 2005 (Solnas presented it at the Documentary Festival I attended in Quito) and is available on DVD.

    Since the Kirschners were elected there has been sustained growth and some measure of stability. Some privatized companies are being returned to state ownership and control. The last thing they want is folks shooting each other outside Casa Rosada because of a Mexican-style pension disaster.

    I really feel for the folks here who will be working till they die in the traces because the pols wanted to pay back their corporate supporters by giving them the lensions toplay with in the market!

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • bliffle

    Dave tries out the ancient McCarthy charge:

    “Obama’s Marxist background and openly socialist rhetoric…”

    Doesn’t seem to have the sting it had back in the 50’s when the commies were in charge in Russia.

    Maybe it’s worn out.

  • moon

    The Pino Solanas documentary is called MEMORIA DEL SAQUEO.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Dr. D. your #19 conveniently leaves out this part of the conversations:

    Obama: “My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody. I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.”

    Dave

  • Brad Schader

    I am using the best solution to this mess and I hope everyone else does as well- vote for opposite parties. I never, EVER vote the same party for the White House and Congress; that denies checks and balance. I don’t know Obama that well, but what I do know I like. I don’t know Palin that well, but what I do know I don’t like. McCain and Biden are nonissues in this race and it really is Obama-Palin running. Since I am going to vote for Obama based on that logic, I am going to put the GOP in Congress so as to balance out Obama’s possible very left tendencies.

    Remember- anyone who puts party over country is a traitor to both.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Lisa, where on earth did I say that South America is evil?

    I referenced ONE country in this article, Argentina. And I didn’t even call it evil, I just suggested that what its president is doing to its people and their pensions is a very bad idea and worse for the US.

    South America has many countries, some of them pretty well run – even some of the fairly socialistic ones. Brazil and Chile come to mind as countries which have had histories of earnestly trying to govern well, if not always successfully. Argentina has a history of being governed badly by generally creepy people.

    Dave

  • moon

    Right,

    Nalle. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] Chile has the privatized pension system espoused by the Chicago Boys and it is being flushed down the toilet–just like in Mexico.

    Which may explain why Bachelet’s presidency has not pleased fokls–even though it was Pinochet who proivatized everything (inlcuding the `public funds he privatized to himself and his family).

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Clav,

    Obama was not saying to Joe that the wealth should be spread from anybody. He was making a general observation about economics. Do try to be less paranoid.

    Dave,

    I didn’t leave anything out. Read the whole quote again…

    Your feeble ‘gotcha’ attempt, however, deliberately cherry-picks bits of what Obama said, and for obvious reasons. Your spinning-top needs a new string.

  • Arch Conservative

    “Archie, Cannon – get ready to put up with at least 2 more years of this ridiculous, delusional bullshit.”

    I’m hoping it’s less than eight months.

  • moon

    BTW, Doc, It would behoove you to LEARN something about the historyof the hemisphere you are currently living in.

    1. Central America–minus Belize and Panama– was ONE country after Independence from Spain, The Federal Republic of Central America. It did not include Venezuela.

    2. You have no idea what the landmass of this hemisphere actually looks like, as the Mercatur Projection distorts the apparent size of the Southern Hemisphere to look much smaller than it is. Brazil and the Congo, for example, are actually the size of continents in their own right.

    3. Nalle is not the President of the Planet–and therefore it is not up to him to rename continents at his own convenience.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I didn’t leave anything out. Read the whole quote again…

    Your feeble ‘gotcha’ attempt, however, deliberately cherry-picks bits of what Obama said, and for obvious reasons. Your spinning-top needs a new string.

    I read it again. Your quote does not include the part which I quoted, which is taken from the New York Post’s transcription of the discussion.

    Since what I quoted is the actual relevant part of the discussion you probably ought to have included it rather than a less relevant part on the basis of which you erroneously dismissed the concerns about Obama’s penchant for wealth redistribution.

    It’s all kind of moot now that all these sorts of other similar quotes have surfaced going back for years, but it was the genesis of the process of looking into Obama’s past statements which uncovered all of this unfettered socialist rhetoric.

    Dave

  • moon

    Unfettered?????

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    I wouldn’t vote for either candidate unless I was paid at least a million euros [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor].

  • Clavos

    Clav, have you actually figure out how much Obama will cost you personally in taxes?

    No. It doesn’t matter. What I’m opposed to is “spreading the wealth around” as a matter of principle, even were I to be on the receiving end.

    And yes, bliffle, I KNOW our system of taxation (or any) is a form of “spreading the wealth around,” that doesn’t make me want to increase the spreading.

    Qbama wants to increase taxes on corporations, which will ultimately come out of our pockets, since corporations don’t pay taxes, they simply pass them through to the end users, whether in the form of increased prices or reductions in staffing and/or other cutbacks in expenses.

    I would like to see government’s power over the people reduced, not increased. Most of Obama’s proposals will increase its power, and allow it to intrude even further into our lives than it does. Unfortunately, stealing private property seems to be increasingly in vogue in government circles at all levels these days.

    And cutting back the government’s power is nearly impossible; the bureaucrats expend far more energy protecting their fiefdoms than they do fulfilling their missions.

  • moon

    Nonsense.

    If clavos has the level of income that he would have us believe he has, he doesn’t pay taxes anyway–or a mere pittance.

    The wealthy pay considerably less money than their legal tax share would be to folks who have accounting practices like this poster used to have in the US to make sure that they pay almost nothing in taxes.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Here is a link to a very perceptive and interesting site.

    The devil made me post it.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Dave @ #43:

    Ah, the New York Post. Owned by – what’s his name? – oh, yes, Rupert Murdoch – who also happens to own… I think you see where I’m going here.

    No, none of Murdoch’s publications would ever distort anything…

    Go back up to my comment again. You can skip the couple of bits of lead-in dialog between Obama and Joe. Obama’s longer speech is what you’re looking for.

    Here’s the first sentence of your quote from the Post‘s ‘transcription':

    “My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody.”

    Would you care to skip down to line 5…?

    Now to the second sentence of your quote:

    “I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.”

    Read line 9…

    The Post‘s ‘transcription’ cuts out a whole chunk of the quote and removes it from its context, thereby giving it a completely different meaning than the one you’re trying to apply to it.

  • moon

    Dan,

    You have too much time on your hands.

    I caught a lot of flak when I posted about Aunt Jemima in Ferragamos telling the Katrina victims to eat pancakes….and that was ORIGINAL.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Central America–minus Belize and Panama– was ONE country after Independence from Spain, The Federal Republic of Central America. It did not include Venezuela.

    Thanks for the history lesson, Moon. Wasn’t Venezuela originally part of the Viceroyalty of Peru?

    You have no idea what the landmass of this hemisphere actually looks like, as the Mercatur Projection distorts the apparent size of the Southern Hemisphere to look much smaller than it is. Brazil and the Congo, for example, are actually the size of continents in their own right.

    And the geography lesson. Actually, strictly speaking, Mercator’s projection distorts the Northern Hemisphere to appear larger than it is. I do have a globe at home – and a smaller one right here on my desk, actually. From it, I observe that Brazil is larger than the contiguous United States and Australia – whether that qualifies it as continent-sized rather depends on whether you think Australia is a continent. Congo (even combining both countries of that name), while sizeable, is considerably smaller; also, since it straddles the Equator, Mercator distorts it somewhat less.

    I can’t argue with your third point.

  • moon

    Doc,

    1. While it is true that most of South America was under the oversight of Lima, Venezuela was the exception because for most of the colonial period it was overseen by the “Audiencia” of Santo Domingo.

    Got you again.

    2. Whether something is distorted to look larger versus something else being distorted to look smaller is a relative argument.

    Pick somebody else’s nits.

    And

    Don’t fuck with The Phantom.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    DD,

    When Argentina collapsed, it was not the central pillar of the Temple of Mammon. It was just a side pillar and its fall did not damage the Temple. So the Temple priests could rebuild the structure without too much of a sweat.

    America is the central pillar of the Temple of Manmmon. And it is facing crises similar to (but not identical to) the crisis facing Argentina several years back. Whe that central pillar goes the god of money goes, too. It is just a golden statue surrounded by silicone….

    The cool thing about it all? When the shit does hit the fan, there ain’t gonna be no Jesus to save your sorry asses.

    And if you think that Obomba is the messiah, you got a pitchfork coming your way too.

    In the meantime, I’m waiting for more work – editing the explanations of more company execs trying to cover their asses to the big investors who have lost a fortune….

  • moon

    Ruvy,

    I agree with everything except your calling Gringolandia America.

    America is used here to refer to North, South and Central as one continent.

    Otherwise the statement by Simón Bolívar, “The United States seems destined by Providence to plague America with misery in the name of freedom”, doesn’t make any sense.

    When Simón Bolívar was close to death in Santa Marta, Colombia, he said to his doctor:

    “The three greatest fools in history have been Jesus Christ, Don Quixote…and me”.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    My apologies, Marthe. The habits of a lifetime trip me up. You are right about America – I ought to have said the United States in place of America. Had I been following Jewish prophecy more closely, I would have said Rome. Prophetically speaking, The United States, Canada and Western Europe are considered “Rome” and “Rome” is considered “Edom”.

    And the god of Mammon that “Rome” worships is cracked and falling….

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    Gibberish eh? MSM likes my gibberish. How’s this for ghetto economics: Taxes are socialism. Socialism is the forced redistribution of wealth.

    Obama couldn’t be a Socialist, communist or Marxist (practice) if he wanted to. That’s why Joe asked the wingnut interviewer “Huh? are you kidding, who wrote your questions?”

    Yeah Dave ditto to this article: are you fucking kidding?

    Gibberish enough fer ya?

    Heloise

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    Are you watching Obama’s infomercial? It’s so professional and well done and not overdone.

    WTF the way early voting is going, going, gone…he could have the votes he needs by fucking Friday!!! Would that we could.

    Heloise

    Eat your heart out Dave!!!

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Yeh Heloise, it was perfect. I think I’m finally going to get off the fence and vote for him now.

    (lame attempt at humor)

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I was out shopping for halloween costumes. Was his ‘infomercial’ substantially different from the 24-hour Obama channel on my satellite dish?

    Dave

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    You gonna be the Anti-Christ again this year, Dave?

  • Cindy D

    ROFLOL @ Lisa! Hilarious!

  • Cindy D

    Why do Republicans always cry about higher taxes? It’s not as if Democrats spend more!

    Republicans outspend Democrats by miles! Republicans act like crack addicts with an unlimited John Q. Public credit card.

    “I’ll take a war, a bridge, and a few incentives for Microsoft, just put it all on the card please.”

    One simple picture says it all:

    Chart – Democrat VS Republican – Deficit

  • Cindy D

    Dave you never responded to those two videos I posted for you showing McCain saying the same things about wealth and paying taxes as Obama says.

    Lisa,

    For Halloween Dave is going to be wearing the latest in crackpot conspiracy-wear. A fruitcake costume and a tin foil cowboy hat.

    Because Dave is going as what he has become. The new improved version of a Ron Paul crackpot…and anti-Obama fruitcake.

    Speculation and fearmongering abound. [thanks to people like Dave, who trade in it] Obama’s Marxist background and openly socialist rhetoric have raised fears [see what I mean? he couldn’t even complete a sentence without doing it] despite the moderate positions and conciliatory statements which have characterized his campaign.

    Thanks Dave. LMAO!!!!

    Really Dave, are you going as Fruitcakenstein or Count Fruitcakeula?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I think that since Obama is now the messiah, going as the Antichrist seems even more appropriate than usual.

    Plus this year I plan to carve 666 in my cheek in honor of Ashley Todd.

    Dave

  • pablo

    Best idea you have had yet Nalle. Carve it baby.

  • Cindy D

    Dave,

    It seems this guy stole your Halloween costume or is that actually you?

    Who would have thought they would be able to deflect Obama’s Marxist mind rays with a gold-plated tin foil mask?