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Obama’s Speech: The War That Started With Lies Is Ending With Lies

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At this point in time, after 30 years of conservative corporatist rule — let’s face it, Clinton and Obama are as corporatist as Reagan and the Bushes — something has broken in America.

America is a lie wrapped in a delusion inside a swindle.

Witness Obama’s “the war is over” speech. According to him, all “combat troops” have left Iraq. The 50,000 troops still in Iraq are there only to support Iraqi forces. This is semantics. If the Iraqis get in a fight with insurgents, Americans will be right there, supporting them. How do you support? You fight, for chrissake.

That’s lie number one.

Lie number two: “At every turn, America’s men and women in uniform have served with courage and resolve.”

What bullshit. It’s because our military kicked down doors in the middle of the night and terrorized the citizenry, that the Sunnis revolted and a civil war broke out. Yeah, that takes a lot of courage and resolve, to terrorize Iraqi families — women and children — at three o’clock in the morning. Our troops fucked up from start to finish, because George W. Bush fucked up from start to finish. This biggest asshole of all Presidents did not even get what he wanted. He did not even succeed in why he started the war in the first place: for the Iraqis to give their oil contracts exclusively to US oil companies instead of to the Russian and French companies with whom Saddam cut oil deals. The Russians have still got their oil deals, and of course the Chinese have joined them.

Obama said: “Yet no one could doubt President Bush’s support for our troops, or his love of country and commitment to our security.” Sure, no one could doubt President Bush’s support for our oil companies, or his love of Texas oil men and commitment to their oil profits.

Now the neocons want Obama to thank them for the fact that the surge worked. The surge did not work. What worked was that Muqtada al-Sadr decided to take his Mahdi Army out of the fight (for now) and that the Sunni leaders got fed up with the brutal terrorist actions of Al Qaeda in Iraq, and that General Petraeus bought off the Sunni leaders with hard cash. He paid them to fight Al Qaeda instead of us.

It was a surge in cash that worked, not a surge in troops. The neocon revisionist narrative is as pathetic as they themselves are. These warmongers all ducked military service themselves. Big-mouth sissy armchair chickenhawks.

Obama said of our military: “They stared into the darkest of human creations — war — and helped the Iraqi people seek the light of peace.”

Light of peace, my ass. Iraq had an election and the guy who lost refuses to hand over power to the guy who won. That’s “the light of peace”? That’s “democracy”? The Iraqi elite is as bad as ours. Water, electricity and security are as unreliable as ever. Millions of educated Iraqis and Iraqi youth have left Iraq — the very people Iraq needs to build something. They’re gone because of us.

Obama said: “As we wind down the war in Iraq, we must tackle those challenges at home with as much energy, and grit and sense of common purpose as our men and women in uniform who have served abroad. They have met every test that they faced. Now, it is our turn.”

Our military failed every test that they faced, because there was nothing to win and nothing to gain except oil deals. They did not defend us against anything that was a threat to America. When they began the war, there was no Al Qaeda in Iraq. But Al Qaeda sure came in droves once they realized there was excellent sport to be had in killing Americans. Our troops fought for nothing and died in vain. It was a total waste of American lives — and Iraqi lives. Our blood irrigated their sand for a big fat zero.

Now Obama sees the Iraq War as a model for what we should do at home. This has got to be the biggest bullshit since Jesus said the meek shall inherit the earth.

What has in fact happened at home? As big a lie as happened in Iraq. Polls show that we — the meek — wanted Wall Street restrained, regulated, and hogtied. After all, they’re the folks who ruined us. But did the administration do this? No, when Congress made a few moves to control Wall Street, the administration — those Wall Street stooges Summers and Geithner — fought tooth and nail for the banksters. And won.

Our economy is screwed not because regular folks lack energy and grit and a sense of common purpose, but because Wall Street’s fat cats pulled a massive fraud on us, and then, when it exploded in their faces, got Washington to shove our taxes into their pockets with no quid pro quo, along with the Fed printing money for them. Obama went right along with this fraud.

And now Obama is “nation-building” in Afghanistan. Translation: America is backing a bunch of corrupt druglords against a bunch of fundamentalist crazies. The big difference between the druglords and the fundamentalists is this: the druglords rape women, while the fundamentalists stone them to death if they fuck someone they love.

Some war to get involved in. Propping up the biggest narco state in the world. It’s as if we went down to Mexico and our Army fought for the drug cartels.

The difference between George W. Bush and Barack Obama comes down to this: they both lie, they’re both stupid, they both got Wall Street dick so far up their butts, when they open their mouths you can see the glans, and they could both care less about working-class people in America — but Obama is an A student and Bush is a C student. Some mighty big damn difference.

The American Dream is a lie. America is a lie. And the people who rule us are the liars. As long as we keep believing them, we deserve being screwed by them. Just think about it: one of the big “issues” that we’re concerned about today is whether Obama is a Muslim or not. How dumb can we get? An important issue should be that Obama is a big fat liar, and that the GOP are even worse liars, and that both of them are ready to attack Social Security.

When will the American people wake up and defend themselves? Thirty million Americans are now out of work or underemployed. Are we going to wait until this number reaches fifty million? A hundred million? Are we that stupid? We bought Bush’s wars on Afghans and Iraqis. How long will we buy Washington’s war on us?

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About Adam Ash

  • Trisha

    This article sounds completely narcissistic and just pathetic. The negativity towards the military and government in this is just embarrassing and infuriating- if that combination even makes sense. I think the author should just shut up and keep his opinion to himself.

  • Adam, thanks for this terrific article. You’re right. Our troops fucked up from start to finish. By acting like thugs, they ignited an insurgency. As you say, they failed every test and defended us against a nonexistent threat. “Our troops fought for nothing,” you write, “and died in vain.”

    Unlike you, however, Barack Obama cannot say those words. For all the wrongheaded wars we’ve gotten into since 1776, no president has ever been able to tell Americans, “Our troops fought for nothing and died in vain.” For him to have said so in his August 31 speech would’ve meant political suicide. He’d have been impeached the next day.

    So to call Obama a liar may be over the top. He’s a politician, Adam. They all lie. It’s part of their job description. But realistically, how could he have told the truth on nationwide TV about what we did in Iraq and are still doing in Afghanistan? He can’t look the American people in the eye and tell us, “Your sons and daughters are murderers. Thanks for letting them join the military. And for those killed in action, rest assured. My letter of condolence is in the mail.”

    Not everybody has the freedom to be as cruel as you, Adam.

  • Ruvy

    This article was written by an Obama supporter. I wonder what an anti-Obama article would look like?

  • Just like yours, Ruvy…

    😀 lol Don’t get mad at me for joking with you, OK? I just couldn’t resist!.

  • No more blood for oil!

    It’s about time that someone (besides me) tries to reveal the true nature of our *war on terror*.

    We have been sold all of these lies by a group of *sleazy* advertisers working for the war profiteers.

    YES, Saddam was undercutting the world market by selling his country’s oil, independently of OPEC and the US.

    Yes, they really could give a flying F about the men, women, and children of these war torn nations.

    Yes, the soldiers are now sitting ducks, once again. I don’t agree with the author here, because these are not *combat troops* that are being left behind; they are permanent markers.

  • Nat,

    I saw your *agenda* and you need to stop trying to demonize the soldiers. They are our children and many joined for economic reasons, not out of some sick blood lust.

    OK, Bradley Manning Support Group?

  • Ruvy

    😀 lol Don’t get mad at me for joking with you, OK? I just couldn’t resist!.

    Why should I get mad a someone in upstate New York for joking around?

  • What part of the article do you disagree with, Jeannie? Just curious.

  • Ruvy

    I don’t like how your country is using soldiers and making policy in Afghanistan or Pakistan, Jeannie. In fact, it stinks. But this is not a slam on the soldiers, but the fools at the top. You’re a veteran. you get what I’m saying.

  • Baronius

    IF you believe that the war was about oil, then it was a failure. Of course there was no evidence that it was about oil in the first place, and the oil explanation never really made sense anyway.

    IF you believe that the war was about overthrowing Saddam, then it was a success.

    IF you believe that the war was about creating a stable democracy in the Gulf region, here’s hoping that it worked.

  • I don’t disagree with this article, Roger

    I just say it’s not the soldiers making the policies and decisions.

  • Ruvy,

    I don’t like it either. So, my friend, THIS is the first article that we both agree with.

    😀 Congratulations to both of us!

  • Yes, the soldiers are now sitting ducks, once again. I disagree with the author here, because these are not *combat troops* that are being left behind; they are permanent markers.

    Sorry for the confusing word.

  • Baronius,

    You just said it all. We have all been led by the noses to believe.

    How about the truth?

  • What a horrendous waste. The war, yes, but also this terrible article, a waste of obvious writing talent. All anger, no reasoning. All heat, no light.

    We kept troops in Germany and Korea too, without them being drawn back into combat. The 50,000 are scheduled to be drawn down much, much further in the next 12-15 months.

    Because Obama moves and speaks moderately and cautiously, especially in foreign policy, he will never, ever satisfy you. There is a vast difference between not saying what you want to hear and “lying.”

    And your misrepresentation of the financial crisis is so extreme as to be immoral. Your anger is doing your thinking for you, with disastrous results.

  • Baronius

    Handy, I’m not saying this to goad you or anything, but I would have thought you agreed with Adam’s assessment of Wall Street.

  • Nope. I find the liberal populist view that Wall St banks are storybook villains, and that they “own” the Obama administration, as phony and unconvincing as the right’s various narratives.

    And just this week, the NY Times ran a story about several Wall St and hedge-fund fat cats who supported Obama in 2008, turning on him in recent weeks, not just giving their money to Republicans, but loudly complaining that the administration has been scapegoating them.

  • We kept troops in Germany and Korea too, without them being drawn back into combat.

    Not the same conditions, Handyguy.

  • Of course they don’t own, Obama. That’s why this country’s economy is in a holding pattern.

  • Geithner and Summers, Obama’s top financial honchos with well-established Wall Street connections, and Bernanke, another nonentity whose only asset is doublespeak, are the chief obstacles.

    As to the military operations. Granted, Obama inherited both theaters of war; granted, he can’t speak from the heart and talk of wasted lives. But the one thing he could have done was to dismantle both operations with all possible haste. But he caved in instead to the neocon voices and policy, which would surely declare him unpatriotic for making light of 9/ll and threats to national security due to terrorism. Yes, that’s one thing he could have done but didn’t because he doesn’t have the spine.

    To accentuate the spineless character of our Commander-In-Chief and the ridiculousness of the situation, we commit to Afghanistan build-up, knowing full well we shall be withdrawing within a year or so.

    As far as I am concerned, there is no better demonstration of the lackluster and indecisive character of this administration: we’re paying a lip service to conservative, hawkish interests, and capitalize on the fear instilled in American hearts since 9/11 while at the same time, moved a more progressive agenda heralded as the big “hope ‘n change,” we backpedal. Thus, we want to have out cake and eat it too. Pathetic.

    The very notion of “counterinsurgency” is idiotic, yet our Harvard-educated president approved it. It’s asinine to think you can exterminate terrorists locations at one site and believe you’ve solved the problem. Like cockroaches, they’ll surely find another spot and nest there. Again, our president “approved” of this strategy, which amounts to paying it a lip service knowing full well it’s doomed to failure.

    I don’t know what JFK would have done under the circumstances. The Bay of Pigs was a fiasco but, if memory serves, he got out of it gracefully and with honor.

    Well, JFK didn’t cave in, and neither did was Bobby, which is why perhaps both were assassinated. But they were real statesmen, people with gravitas. The present occupant of the White House is none of those things.

    Which brings me to Mr. Ash’s article. Except for the vitriol, quite justifiable in my not so humble opinion, there’s nothing really wrong with it. Even his suggestion that Mr. Obama ought to have leveled with the American people and call a spade a spade is well taken. There always words one can find if the intent is right and heart in the right place. All it takes is courage.

    Well, Mr. Obama hadn’t, he didn’t have the guts, for which reason it’s not so outrageous to call him a liar, a white liar to be sure, but a liar nonetheless.

  • Timothy Geithner has never held a non-government job beyond a stint with Henry Kissinger’s consulting firm more than 20 years ago. He has never worked for any Wall St bank.

    Ben Bernanke is 10 or 20 or 100 times smarter than you or I or anyone else making dumb assertions on Blogcritics. He did indeed fail to see the depth of what was coming. Did you see it, in 2007 or early 2008? I don’t remember any such predictions from you. If you were indeed clairvoyant, maybe you should be Fed chairman or Treasury secretary.

    None of the actions that Geithner, Bernanke and Summers have taken in the last 18 months have been happily embraced by Wall St; they are working hard in almost impossible, unprecedented conditions. And they probably helped avert a Second Great Depression.

    But all you want is blood, and since they’re not giving you that, you caricatue them as villains.

    Throwing slime around on the internet is great sport, so have at it. It doesn’t rate very high on the list of how to discuss important issues, however.

  • Zedd


    Come on. It takes a lot of courage for an 18yr old to walk into a combat situation, on a street, in a city, in a country that is completely unfamiliar to him. Those young kids did what they were asked to do and they were courageous.

  • Well, I guess that lady with the lowercase name (#6) put me in my place, alright. I didn’t realize one was not entitled to comment here if one has an *agenda* (I have no idea what the asterisks denote; just following her example). I double checked the Official Comment Policy, and found no reference to agendas. Maybe some people just make up the rules around here as they go along, huh?

  • Zedd


    50,000 people are back home. This is when a thinking person who understands that most processes are incremental AND who understands the volatility and vulnerability of Iraq right now does a fist pump and then continues to put pressure on the powers that be to end this situation WELL.

    Also, there are specific designations for various military endeavors. The portion that has ended is labeled “combat operations”. Meaning the last combat brigade has left. I really am not sure why that is confusing or problematic for you.

    Yes you don’t like the President but goodness, 21 months after office and 50,000 troops are home.

    I will only extrapolate that you are not one to enjoy the moment. Feel it. It is a good thing.

  • Nat Woods,


    I reacted strongly to your comment and page. For that, I owe you an apology.

  • Zedd,

    They are not going to totally leave, Iraq.

  • “Ben Bernanke is 10 or 20 or 100 times smarter than you or I or anyone else making dumb assertions on Blogcritics.”

    If that’s not an expression of the cult of personality, authority, or whatever, then I don’t know what is. No wonder people don’t mind being fucked in the rear and keep on asking for more. No wonder, also, while the liberal mindset is for the birds – they accept things at face value rather than dare to think for themselves.

    A question, though about Bernanke’s “smartness.” What are the grounds? Sounds to me like nothing but an assertion, promulgated by the need to believe that the keepers of the gate are rooting for us.

    Utter absurdity.

  • They’re not villains, BTW, never suggested that. It’s just they’re incompetent. Have no more clue than any of us. At least I address the systemic problems that come with capitalism, but they don’t even dare. Bernanke’s doublespeak, just as Greenspan’s before him, reveal them either as complete dunces or complete lackeys, take your pick.

    Consequently, they’re not only clueless, which is to say dumb to the core, or total sellouts. As as regards “smartness,” my syntax and power of expression towers over them.

  • What I ought to have said, “clueless and cowards as well.”

  • “Come on. It takes a lot of courage for an 18yr old to walk into a combat situation, on a street, in a city, in a country that is completely unfamiliar to him.”

    No, it doesn’t. It’s the kind of foolishness and false bravery that comes with youth.

  • 50 thousand troops at home and 100 thousand more in Afghanistan. What kind of a comparison are you making, Zedd? And what has it all to do with different “designations” you speak of.

    “Designations” are designed with the express purpose of making us believe in something that is not, in a fairy tale, in other words. You ought to have known better, yet you seem to be buying this propaganda hook, sink and liner.

    Forget about who occupies the Oval Office. It doesn’t matter to me one way or another, and neither should it to you. I’d say the very thing if it were JFK, no matter. Right is right and that’s the end of the story, all that talk about “processes being incremental” is pure BS, nothing but a lame excuse.

    Please don’t make me disappointed in you.

  • We never ever leave… How many foreign military bases are there in the United States?


  • Also… In what condition have we left our soldiers. There ought to be a lot of national shame here, instead of national cheer-leading.

    🙁 I put away my, pom poms…

  • “It takes a lot of courage for an 18yr old to walk into a combat situation,” one commenter writes. “No, it doesn’t,” responds another. “It’s the kind of foolishness and false bravery that comes with youth.”

    I submit those qualities are not mutually exclusive. Sometimes, Courage (whether true or false) + Foolishness = Heroism. In any case, what matters is, as Adam writes in his article, “Our troops fought for nothing and died in vain. It was a total waste of American lives–and Iraqi lives.” Never mind the troops’ motivations. What did their actions accomplish, apart from killing and maiming lots of innocent civilians? As Adam says, “Our blood irrigated their sand for a big fat zero.”

  • Paul Krugman has done a pretty balanced assessment of Bernanke [taking into account that Bernanke hired Krugman at Princeton]:

    The pro case is obvious: Ben Bernanke is a great economist, whose work on monetary economics has been a crucial guide to action in this crisis, and he applied his academic insights forcefully in 2008 and early 2009, helping pull the world back from the brink.

    Against that are two factors.

    One is that he completely failed to see the trouble building as the housing bubble inflated…

    The second is that since the acute phase of the crisis came to an end, Bernanke has seemed out of touch with the severe problems that remain.

    … he has seemed deeply worried about defending himself against the inflation hawks, not at all concerned with the question of whether the Fed is doing all it should to fight catastrophically high unemployment. (It isn’t).

    As I see it, the two things that worry me about Bernanke stem from the same cause: to a greater degree than I had hoped, he has been assimilated by the banking Borg.

    In 2005, respectable central bankers dismissed worries about a housing bubble, ignoring the evidence; in the winter of 2009-2010, respectable central bankers are worried about nonexistent inflation rather than actually existing unemployment. And Bernanke, alas, has become too much of a respectable central banker.

    That said, however, what is the alternative?

  • Nat,

    They got ride of Saddam.

  • rid

  • To use Krugman in support of Bernanke is to pile authority on top of authority/ Ultimately, it’s still an argument from authority.

    My concept of economics is that its mostly a matter of human activity, forget fiscal policies, balancing the budget and all that crap. It’s basic stuff, and there is no need to make it any more complicated than it is.

    As I explained to Glenn on another thread, WWII got us out of the Great Depression by a combination of efforts, but most important was that all parties, the government, the people, and yes, even the Big Business were made to co-operate in one great effort and with one goal in mind, to defeat the Nazi thread. It’s conditions such as these which make for a healthy economy. Anything else is bullshit, hiding behind the stats, expounding on esoteric theories when common sense would suffice.

    When was the last time in American history when we were so united by a single-minded purpose, is the right kind of question, all parts to the equation working in tandem – the business, the government and the people, and the source of all our economic and other troubles becomes fairly apparent.

  • They got rid of Saddam! You must be joking. The U.S. invaded Iraq on March 20, 2003. Within three weeks, the Iraqi government and military had collapsed. When Baghdad fell on April 9, Saddam was nowhere to be found. He was finally captured on December 14, but during those months had played no role in Iraqi resistance. By August 31, 2010, when President Obama formally acknowledged the end of America’s combat role in Iraq, it had been more than seven years since Saddam wielded power, and almost four years since he’d been hanged. So the question remains: between April 2003 and August 2010, what did our troops accomplish, apart from killing and maiming lots of innocent civilians? Why is it so hard for you to admit that Adam is right about this?

  • Excuse the misspelling. I think faster than I write.

  • Nat,

    I think that you have misinterpreted all of my comments on this thread.

    I agree with the author on almost every point.

    :O ?

  • So, again. They got rid of Saddam, who was selling his country’s oil under the world market price set by OPEC. See?

  • Krugman’s statement, if you take the trouble to actually read it, is one part praise and two parts criticism of his former boss.

    We don’t have to swallow anyone’s opinion whole [not Krugman’s or mine or certainly not yours], but to discount the importance of what someone says or writes because they are a public figure is just loony. We should all read and evaluate multiple sources of information and be open to opposing viewpoints.

    Becoming infatuated with what is already in your head, thinking you already know all you need to know, is particularly dangerous. It is the source of perhaps half or 3/4 of the dumb stuff people write on Blogcritics.

  • Forget it. You’re obviously so fixated on Saddam Hussein that you think the war ended in April 2003. It’s impossible to deal with such tunnel vision.

  • I know this war is not over by a long shot. What do you want to hear?

  • Read #5 and then come back to *argue* or *debate* with me. :/

  • Again, the suggestion is ludicrous. It’s not who says what or who they are which is important to me – only the quality of their thinking. The argument from authority, it seems, serves as a stumbling block.

  • Jo

    To answer Ruvy’s question, about what this article would look like had it been written by someone who wasn’t an Obama supporter…..it’d contain facts and the truth, most likely. Anything written by a sheeple who follows this stooge Osama (Oops….Obama….it’s hard to get those two straight)is going to contain lies and bullshit. Obama is a scourge on our country. He is indeed the modern day Hitler….only this fool won’t be successful!

  • Jo

    And before the Obzombies (aka followers of Obama who are zombie-like) attack me, I do not condone Hitler. I merely am stating that Obama will not get as far with his hate as Hitler had.

  • Zedd


    It’s still 50,000 people, human beings. You guys let your idealism get in the way of your logic sometimes. These are human beings. Real people, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters who didn’t start this thing and who signed up for something that they didn’t understand.

    Also, this is a huge start. It’s 50,000 more than when Bush left office. REJOICE. Everything has a beginning.

  • Zedd


    Of course we are still going to be there. We NEED to be there now. If you want another lawless free for all like Afghanistan; one that is loaded up with oil and sits on the other side of Iran, with a scared population whose lives we demolished then by all means lets pull out.

    We broke Iraq and yes, we have to play a role in fixing it. Lets all adjust to that as a fact of life. Perhaps with Iraq more stable and huge ally relationship, we wont have to put up with Israel. If we don’t have to put up with them, the anger towards us in the region diminishes and then perhaps the threat of terror is reduced world over.

    But walking around with hopes of a day when men will live in perfect harmony and grow apple trees and honey bees -then you dismissed Glenn for asking the for the same thing on BC – is badly considered.

  • OK, I grant you the point. But it’s not just idealism. It was and is doable, and you know it. I’d have done it. The guy is just too much of a crowd pleaser. Sorry we disagree.

  • Congrats, Jo. You may have already locked up dumbest comment of the month. Probably in the running for the year as well

  • Oh, I thought that was one of the ghosts.

  • Zedd,

    I’m not ignoring your comment; it’s just that I wont be able to really give you a good response right now, so I’ll have to sleep on it.

    sorry. 🙁

  • Zedd


    What I am getting is that Obama’s biggest fault is that he is not JFK.

    JFK wouldn’t know what to do with the situation at hand. No one does.

  • It’s a cop-out, Zedd, and you know it. No situation ever comes to a point when we’re helpless. If we’re resourceful enough to get into a mess, we’re just as resourceful to get out of it, so no, I don’t buy the excuse.

    Anyway, the thing to do is to come clean – the one thing we haven’t seen in years. Politicians just have lost their balls.

  • Apple trees and honey bees…Sounds like a good plan to me.

    So what is it that, Zedd, wants?

    Apparently, to continue our *immoral quest* to occupy and dominate every country on earth, except…Israel from what I could gather.

  • Zedd


    My thinking is that this guy is really smart. He is smart enough to present the best solutions for who we are.

    He is not idealistic to the point that he would propose something that is brilliant but unworkable because of our collective and abysmal stupidity. He however is challenging this nation by introducing ideas that would not be up for discussion.

    This is a really difficult time. No one has solutions. The best we have are proposals for what may work and of course platitudes from the right but no one knows what to do. No one. People have wish lists that address their interests but not what is best for the entire country short term, and in the long range. No one.

    So much has been left unattended for sooooo long because of political games and quite honestly a really stupid or disengaged electorate. Now everyone is hoping this guy is going to save the planet… save us from ourselves, rescue us from our disorganized state, embarrassing reputation, poor habits, greed, bad spending, spoiled state, malaise and immense stupidity.

    Truth is, if corporate America would start hiring, the recession would come to a halt. They are at a 20billion surplus but are sitting on it and waiting for Obama to do something. The Capitalists are not behaving – what-a-you know. The capitalistic machine is actually dependant on human nature (okay Im off topic but had to rant).

    Im eternally curious and open minded. Tell me of someone who has better ideas all around and I will say the Prez needs to go. Its that simple. But to trash this man when we are (and he is) dealing with basically a nation of morons is pointless and surprising.

    Have I had any impact?

  • Zedd


    This is where liberals loose me and hopefully everyone else with good critical thinking skills.

    I’d like some substance. We are dealing with a very real human crisis. What do you propose happens.

    Yes I wish that we hadn’t put ourselves in every nation but firstly, we have a global economy, also, it just goes with being top dog. Sorry you were born in the most powerful nation in the world. What needs to happen is that we need to be there in the best way possible.

    Let me deal with this migraine that is trying to sneak in. I await your response happily.

  • Zedd, you and I have had our differences, but you are making far more sense than almost anyone else on this thread.

    For many on the left, it’s all or nothing at all. Any hint of compromise is seen as treachery or incompetence or both.

    [This is true of the tea-party true believers on the right as well, and you can expect big intra-GOP fights arising from that after the election, if not before.]

  • Zedd,

    I’ll answer you later…Hope your headache goes away.

    nite, Handyguy.

  • He may be “smart,” Zedd, but he isn’t bold. Times of crises call for bold solutions and bold thinking, so excuse me if we disagree. As the term crisis itself implies, from the Greek root, it means decision time, radical decisions and radical solutions. It’s not idealism in me that says that, just sense of history. Carpe diem, seize the day, is the Roman proverb, and it’s not in vain. Most radical changes in the history of human kind have come from bold thinking, not from pussyfooting and the “art of compromise.” So I don’t care how many people are lauding you for your sensibility. I’m not in the business of counting noses. But I am in the business of calling it as I see it, even it it flied in the face of God almighty.


  • “Bold” can be “stupid,” “misguided,” “reckless” also.

    See Bush, George W.

  • Zedd


    I appreciate our disagreement on this issue. I simply want to understand your position. I hope to come out of our exchange only smarter. I don’t want to be right.

    Unfortunately politics in a democracy implies compromise. I don’t have an example in our history where a political leader through caution to the wind and did what was needed to address a crisis situation.

    If you are aware of such a leader I would be happy to read of him.

    Obama is quite bold I would say.

    Uttering the words health care was more than bold

    Redirecting the war from an Iraq focus was bold

    His proposals with environmental issues- bold

    The stimulus – bold

    Ending combat troops in Iraq – bold

    Extending himself to the Arab and Muslim world – bold

    Not talking down to the public (and aww shucksing and by gollying us) and assuming we understand nuance – BOLD

    Addressing Dont Ask Dont Tell – bold

    roger, nothing has been done in decades. Don’t expect it to be resolved in 20 months.

    Also, the main issue is that no one knows what steps, bold or not, would get us out of this mess. No one knows what to do.

  • Zedd

    handy, roger,

    Tony Blair stated that he like Bush and thought he was a simple man and that is why he was so bold in his decission making.

    If you understand the complexities of an issue your response to it will be measured.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Roger, few of those radical changes in the history of humankind came from government officials or agencies. Fewer still from the office of the President of the United States of America.

    Obama isn’t a revolutionary or a radical. He’s the leader of a country and, as a result, has to play ball to a certain extent. This means compromises and, yes, pussyfooting due to the sensitivity of the American people (and of people in general). You can’t just go about ramming things through when you’re pushing through gallons of red ink. It just doesn’t work in any realistic sense.

  • Jordan Richardson

    If you understand the complexities of an issue your response to it will be measured.

    Quoted for truthiness.

  • Zedd


    The only time I have disagreed with you is on gay marriage and that silly discussion on the prostitute filing rape charges because her John didn’t pay her.

    Otherwise I have agreed with everything that I have read of yours.

  • Zedd

    The statement should have read that “Tony Blair LIKED George Bush…..

    One of the biggest issues that we suffer with is that Democrats or liberals don’t know how to win. Dems cant be content with the notion of success. As a result, they are always self sabotaging. From Johnson on, they have been very self destructive. Whether it is Dems in the legislative branch, Presidents and presidential candidates, even the voters. They just don’t know how to build on success.

    As a result Obama will probably not win a second term and of course the house may go Republican.

    This trend is just as frustrating is the thick headedness of the folks on the right.

  • I agree with several of Zedd’s examples of Obama = bold. Or at least, notable accomplishments against powerful headwinds.

    Nevertheless, the GOP wastes no opportunity to paint him as reckless and radical, although even the big stimulus, health and finance reform bills all contained elements to make conservative Dems more comfortable [and yet still got few if any Republican votes].

    Where he possibly could be faulted for lack of boldness is in conveying his message to the public. He is said to have a distaste for speaking in sound bites. But that’s how people have been trained to listen.

    A bracing dose of old fashioned propaganda might do this White House some real good.

  • Yes, we’ll still have to agree to differ on gay issues, Zedd. I don’t remember the prostitute thing. Possibly that was Zing or someone else?

  • Zedd


    To help you out on your question. You don’t have to want to fight to be in a fight. Our troops were busy fighting.

    I think you forget that Bush started the war to supposedly fight “terrror”. The goal of the invasion was never to simply kill Saddam.
    Also, Im pretty sure that you are aware of what took place in Iraq after the topple of Saddam. We were preventing Iraq from becoming another Afghanistan (a real threat). I know you are familiar with it’s strategic location and the vulnerability that its destabilization would place the entire glob in, let alone its own neighbors.

  • Zedd


    Maybe not on gay issues but on that particular one.

  • Zedd

    Jordon @68. Agreed!

  • Zedd

    #72 ”
    He is said to have a distaste for speaking in sound bites. But that’s how people have been trained to listen.

    A bracing dose of old fashioned propaganda might do this White House some real good.”

    I have comment envy! I share your sentiments.

  • So, Handyguy whose politics are clearly in the middle, declares that everyone else is, wrong, radical, simple ,and whatever other names he can call them.

    When I said that, Gov Paterson, was more a DINO than, a Liberal, I was right The only thing, Patterson is Liberal with is cutting the social programs for the less wealthy in his State.

    “In a perhaps politically ill-timed decision, Governor Paterson’s Executive Budget Summary for the coming year calls for $3 million to be cut from domestic violence programs, according to a coalition of anti-violence service providers.” Source

    Restoring theclothing tax will not affect the wealthy. If anything it will push more money into other states and on-line.

    Suggested reading:
    Wrong budget cuts

    Yes, Governor Paterson is definatly a DINO.

    This middle of the road vapid attitude actually is part of America’s problem. no guts

  • Julius Caesar was bold. Zedd. And so were the Gracchi brothers, Tiberius and Gaius, all three assassinated. Likewise with Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Solon and Cleisthenes, both precursors of Greek democracy, their radical reforms paving the way, Charles de Gaulle from the more recent past. Read your history, Zedd.

    And if you’ll argue that our liberal democracies and strong leadership are inconsistent with one another, I’ll simply say it’s too bad for our “democracies.”

    The point you’re missing, our so-called democracy is a democracy in name only, being captive to our capitalist system and doing its bidding.

    I’m not saying now Obama is in the position to affect radical changes. Considering the present state of American politics, I don’t imagine any one person would. And we’re still going to go through a great deal of internal turmoil and head-bashing before the dust settles and we can see our way clear. Only then shall we be able to institute real and meaningful changes, and the first thing here that comes to mind here is ridding ourselves of the stronghold that capitalism has on our political system. So no, I’m not talking about what’s actually possible under the circumstances. But the least thing he could have done is set the tone for the future to come instead of playing a patsy to commercial and conservative interests and go out with a bang rather than with a whimper. So yes, a wimp is going to be the historical assessment, I’m willing to bet, of the current White House occupant. The ideas expressed were fine, but none of them were carried to their natural conclusion. Instead, all we got out of the deal is a bland diet, diluted and adulterated to the point you can’t even taste it. Sorry, I like it spicy.

    Anyway, I don’t find this discussion productive anymore. You have all the right in the world to attribute our disagreement to differences in perception and expectations, so be it, but I see it in a different light. You, like some other liberal commenters here, are being unduly apologetic, ready to come up with all kinds of excuses for the status quo. That’s why I don’t want to engage in these discussions anymore, it ain’t worth it.

  • Lies… to hear click on URL

  • Roger,

    Can I jump in?

    The ideas expressed were fine, but none of them were carried to their natural conclusion. Instead, all we got out of the deal is a bland diet, diluted and adulterated to the point you can’t even taste it. Sorry, I like it spicy.

    The GOP and special interests watered everything down.

    Health care reform, became insurance reform. Without, the public option, there is not a great change, but it’s a start.

    Obama, has moved us toward *real* health care. Something that none of his predecessors were able to do.

    My biggest objection to our present government are these wars. But, we all know why they aren’t ending,most of us anyway…


  • Zedd


    I was speaking of American leaders. I would hope that we wouldn’t indict this young man for not being something that has never been.

    Apologetic to whom and for what my friend?

    I am not so impressed by human beings that I should expect so much from them. Where you are is how far we have come as a species. We have evolved to this point and have managed to progress rather slowly in terms of how we relate with one another. A lot of activity has occurred over time but very small advances have actually occurred if you actually stand back at look at the narrative. We have learned that it is bad to enslave one another. We have learned that people should choose their path. This was known when we were in small bands. Because of being aware of this I am not so impressed with human beings that I should be so judgemental. I know us to be fickle and easily distracted. While I believe that we have not even begun to tap into our capability as a species; the power of our minds, etc. I do believe we come to who we are in the present, slowly.

    Revolution comes at the most difficult moments in history. There was revolution in South Africa. I understand the conditions that lead to “enough is enough”. Not liking a person’s views does not require revolution.

    My expectation is that I should be bold in how I live my life. I live with love, amazing love, I live boldly in most ways.

    I sense that you don’t have much to loose and may not be as engaged with your fellow man and so you see no value in life as it is. I could be wrong. I do find you intriguing and a joy to engage with. I find that with most thinkers, its very easy to disengage and just observe. I know this from experience. I learned from an interesting person that it is crucial to get off of the edges and jump in the pool. I learned that you see a lot more, up close and personal. Being the eternally curious one (about general social, historical and scientific phenomenon), being up close and personal has been invaluable.

    I am not apologetic. There is no sin in humans being human. I am simply not idealistic. I value wisdom and pragmatism greatly and simply don’t understand reactionaries. But as for how I live my life, I love radically.

  • Zedd


    I understand your stance against these wars or any wars. I am also with you on our tendency to manipulate, playing good guy when our intentions are to promote the interests of big business. I understand and agree with your position.

    What would help however is to be clear the idea that there are no good guys and bad guys. We are human beings and very complicated. In Iraq, we have fought two if not three different wars, each with different “enemies”. There are forces that are simply dangerous to the stability of the globe that want to war with the US in order to have their turn at the helm. We have to engage them if we are the most powerful.

    What is true is that if we had not gone to Iraq, we would not have given them the opportunity to convene. However, they have. They are there. We broke it, we have to fix it. That to me is where idealism goes out of the window and down the canyon and practicality takes over.

  • Zedd,

    We have to engage with our own forces that are out to dominate and destroy our, freedom, environment, and future. I’m not talking about a terrorist cell, but unchecked and unregulated capitalism, that doesn’t see us as human beings at all; to the artificial system of the *free market*, we have all become expendable…stockholders or not.

    Cindy and Roger, really hit on the subject of stockholders yesterday.

    Myself, not having had a classical education, other issues, and sorely lacking in typing skills,(two fingers) I am now playing catch-up.

    :O I hope to be able to write before I’m dead…

  • #20: “I don’t know what JFK would have done under the circumstances.”

    He would have taken more drugs, Roger. Then he would have asked his brother Bobby what to do and done it.

    “By the way, Mother says to get a hair cut and quit going to Penneys. I can recommend a tailor. How’s the blondie, Bob?”

    I do, however, admire your hyperbole.


  • Well, it’s all in the spirit of the argument. Tommy.

  • Zedd


    I agree with you. I don’t see one to be more evil than the other. The powerful are so because we allow them to be.

    Iraq would not have happened if the American public had a marginal knowledge of geography and had a moderate respect for the rest of the world. That war was sell-able because “we” basically had the mindset that “they are all alike to me”.

    The flighty nature of Democrats is also a problem. No success can be had if a segments is all about hugging trees and another all about the gays another about peace and another the environment and they all say its all or nothing. That level of naivety is extremely counter productive if not destructive.

    Dems don’t seem to understand the importance of incremental change. Many of them came of age during the 60’s and still seek the high that came with the drama of that era. They fail to see where the revolution is now. Yes it’s online. It’s also in volunteerism and coalitions and community organizations but more than anything else, its with PR.

    So yes corporations are at fault but so are fickle minded voters.

  • Zedd,

    It would be a good idea if everyone *hugged a tree* now and then…We seem to have forgotten that the TREES make oxygen, not just toilet paper, paper bags, and Bounty…

    😀 Wouldn’t you agree?

  • Zedd,

    See the Bee decline?

    Pollination of plants, cannot be done artificially all across the globe. We will all starve to death without our little flying friends…

    🙁 bzzzz

  • Paladin2

    It’s depressing how many accuse you of being ‘angry’ and all the negatives they can attach to that. They’re just wrong and it’s interesting (if not still disgusting) the way the human mind rationalizes things. These are not wars first thing, they are invasions and occupations that are crimes against humanity, look it up. They break Constitutional and U.S. law as well as a host of International treaties/laws/promises. And those that partake in it do so out of a willful ignorance and in spite of the oath all who enter the military take. The parts about not following illegal orders and maybe the ‘enemy within’ part too. “What if they gave a war and nobody came?” is a truism that’s not silly at all and we have not just killed more than a million of them, we have destroyed the country of Iraq, are leaving 50,000 armed thugs to protect our 90 some ‘bases’ and more than 100 thousand ‘private contractors’ so third world personal can be hired cheap to do our dirty work and we can cry ‘I didn’t do it’ and go back to sleep, the condition you need to be in to find the “American dream”.

    I’m a U.S. citizen that’s lived outside the States for 17 years now and there is a lot of news that circulates everywhere else but not a word appears in your so called ‘press’. I’ve been checking this for years and it’s quite alarming how ignorant of important facts you’re kept. This whole idea of ‘respect’, and whether or not people admire our ‘democracy’ is a crock. The list of countries I’ve not spent time in is shorter than the ones I have and universally there is no respect or admiration for the oligarchy that dictates every action of the U.S. And ask your ‘representative'(sic) what ‘national security’ is. And listen to the bullshit they spout. What they tell you they’re doing and what they are doing are not the same. Fear, there’s lots of that and right wing dictators just love the U.S. but others fear the U.S. the way anyone fears a mad dog on the loose. Re: Our neighbor Honduras have introduced, thanks the U.S.A., the first death squads here in Central America in more than 20 years. What little of it that appeared in the U.S. was almost exclusively lies, total lies unchallenged by anyone.

    The U.S., with something close to 6% of the worlds population using close to 50% of everything produced on the planet, year in and year out is ending. The real owners of the U.S. have decided to cash out with everything and leave the rest to fend for themselves and learn to live on 2$ a day on their own. By signing the Patriot Act, FISA and/or any of a score of other ‘laws’ in my book you have committed treason and with any hope at all you will answer for it some day.

    “Anyone capable of getting elected President of the U.S. is not fit to hold the job” is a favorite of mine and the U.S. just seems to get worse and worse, first Clinton, then Bush and now this clown.