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Obama’s Recent Remarks Could Derail Democratic Campaign For The White House

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From the Boston Globe:

…Obama's main message was the government's duty to address what he said are moral problems – such as war, poverty, joblessness, homelessness, violent streets, and crumbling schools – and to employ religious institutions to do it.

"As long as we're not doing everything in our individual and collective power to solve the challenges we face, the conscience of our nation cannot rest," he said.

Obama referred repeatedly to his religious faith in terms that would be familiar to white evangelicals as well as his black audience. He has highlighted faith over the past week as he campaigned in one-time GOP strongholds and talked more about God, country, and service …

The last time I heard or read quotes like this was just after George W. Bush declared that God had interceded to make him President of the United States. Bush has since been acting as though he were firmly convinced that once he'd gained the highest office in our country, his delusion had somehow extended itself even further into believing that the American Voter had also elected him “Pope and Chief” policy maker of the American Evangelical Christian Church.

With Obama's recent declaration of support for Bush’s Faith Based Initiatives giving federal taxpayer's money to religious institutions, it is both troubling and a little frightening that Obama is beginning to sound more and more like Bush in many ways… especially since he disavowed his own long-time religious mentors, and then his own church, just recently and more than once,  in the name of political expediency.

In addition to his recent backpedaling on ending the war in Iraq, as a gay Democrat, I'm more than a little concerned and I'm frankly finding my political convictions wavering…

It appears that Republican John McCain’s presidential campaign staff need not endeavor to find a way to “divide and conquer” the Democratic Party. Obama seems to have figured out a way to do that for them. 

It has been reported that many Democratic supporters of Senator Hillary Clinton would rather not vote at all, than to vote for Obama. I personally wonder if it's not too late to draft her at the convention, as Obama's unguarded remarks may split the Democratic vote more than it already is.

But of course, that's only my opinion…

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About Jet Gardner

I like collecting books, music, movies, chess sets and friends
  • It appears that Republican John McCain’s presidential campaign staff need not endeavor to find a way to “divide and conquer” the Democratic Party. Obama seems to have figured out a way to do that for them.

    I agree, but Senator Obama deserves no credit for original thought here. He had some pretty good teachers during the earlier primary proces, and some of them seem to be helping with his continuing education.


  • This has been a very troubling time for me Dan. I never thought I’d ever be an “undecided” voter, and in fact doubted if they ever existed.

    I know one thing-I’m not voting for McCain. Now I’m wondering if I can in good conscience vote for Obama.

    What’s worse is I’m well aware that not voting for him only helps McCain.

  • Jet,

    I know what you mean. My earlier focus had been on the Obama-Clinton contest. For various reasons, I decided that I could under no circumstances vote for Senator Clinton and that I would vote against her.

    Now my focus is on the McCain-Obama contest, and I am still trying to make up my mind. There are things which I like, and things which I dislike, about both of them. I am “tilting” toward McCain, but that’s it.


  • Wow. Maybe Obama can get the religious right to switch back to the Democratic Party and the GOP can be set free


  • Dave,



  • Dave, my only hope is that they are orphaned and are thrust upon the Libertarian Party-who deserves them…


  • The religious right may be the boil on both political Party’s asses, but they have one undeniable strength-unfortunately.

    They are the only reliable voting block in America. Like sheep or lemmings, they vote as their respective TV minister orders them to. On top of that, if they’re reluctant, like fourth-graders, they’re picked up by the church school busses and driven to the poling places, and handed a “voter’s guide” to take with them into the booths.

    As in my precinct here in downtown Columbus, our previous GOP secretary of state left us a goodbye present… our voting place has been moved from a neutral location to a Baptish church.

    It is a damning thing, that the majority of Americans aren’t as committed.

  • Cannonshop

    The problem really is that you have no way of knowing if he’s sincere, or just playing politics-he’s got ZERO background record, so what he says to day may or may not be what he thinks…today, but you’ve no way of knowing if that’s what he’ll be thinking to-morrow.

    of all the forces on “the right”, the Religious Fundies are the most irrational, and at the same time, most highly organized, they’re also not happy with the GOP’s Choice of McCain. Strategically, they’re a good target for a Democrat with a proven record of church-attendance (or would be if Obama hadn’t been attending Rev. Wright’s church.) I could see a Democratic strategist looking at them as a good target for a move like this, since it would be a direct strike at what is often percieved as the Republican Base, and Obama’s whole campaign message (and lack of serious scandals at this point) is practically designed as an ad to appeal to Christians whom are Christian mainly because they feel guilty or want to feel superior to others.

    So, it COULD just be a crass political move. The problem is, distinguishing it as such, rather than a sincere gesture… (i.e. the Democratic Party’s not going to split over this even a little bit, methinks.)

  • Cannon, I’m sure you’ve read some of my posts here, so you know how commited I am… If I’m wavering what about the less informed?

    As for the Fundies, they’ve got to learn sooner or later that backing a president that promises them their agenda is inneffective at best.

    Look at how Carter, Reagan and both Bushes succeeded at banning abortion, even with a congress of the same party like W had.

    Like it or not, the vast majority (though they’d never admit it to pollsters) just don’t hold religious beliefs that important in their lives.

    Unfortunately the Christian cause has recruited millions of people to give up their grocery money to fund fat-cat preachers who live in multi-million dollar mansions and have “churches” the size of football stadiums. Preachers whose only goal in life is to grab as much power and money that they can, and the rest of us be damned.

  • bliffle

    For many years I’ve assumed that any politician who proclaims his faith in God and Religion is simply a faker and he is pandering for easy votes.

    If I ever began to think that one was serious I would be truly frightened.

    Fortunately, though GWB made a lot of noise about God and Virtue his actions have proven him to be A Sinner like the rest of us. In fact, one could easily argue that he has embraced Sin with even more enthusiasm and lack of shame than the rest of us.

    Phew! Dodged a bullet there!

  • Lee Richards

    Obama is currently practicing what he learned from Chicago politics:hope, change and lofty ideals may be great longterm goals(or not)but first you’ve got to get elected. So, you’ve got to COUNT the voters who are or may be persuaded to be on your side.

    He’s pragmatically counting votes now, and seeking them from every side, source and region. It’s smart politics.

    By appealing to those who want faith to support their vote, he’s unlikely to lose a significant number of his true-believers on the left, and he has a good chance of winning over a substantial number of those in the middle who might be worried that an Obama presidency could be too much of a radical domestic change. And it gives him a better chance at some of those right-of- center voters who are looking for a rationale to abandon McCain, and/or punish the GOP, anyway.

    It’s not on a par with Kennedy’s “Catholic” speech to the Baptists, but it’s Obama’s version and not a bad tactic.

  • Thanks Blif, I am really convinced that Bush hopes that the Isrealis will attack Iran, so that he can claim the holy war of the book of Revelations, and he can glide to heaven as the leader of the righteous people.

    My fear is that if he can’t do it himself, he’ll somehow nudge Isreal into doing his work for him and claim emergency presidential powers and install himself for a third unconstitutional term.

  • Lee the problem is with empty promises of anything to get elected and usless words.

    Blacks could desert him in droves if he alienates them too much, not wanting an inexperienced and ineffective man to be first on the job that might screw up, causing white bigots to point at him and say that he’s the reason not to ever elect another black man again to the office of President of the United States.

    We’ve got very tough economic times ahead and Obama might not be experienced enough to handle the problem, or bring with him good advisors instead of religious political flunkies.

  • Condor

    I could tell a joke about now… but I won’t.

    Ah what the heck….

    An atheist died and subsequently was laying in a casket at his funeral. The mourners filed by, placing little trinkets or speaking encouraging words to the cadaver. His oldest sister came up to the casket during the time set aside for familty viewing and being the good baptist that she was, leaned down close to the body and said… “look at you Davy, all dressed up with no where to go.”

    I’m gone.

  • Okaaaaaaay……. and this relates to the article how? 🙂

  • Condor,

    Of course, that is true of all of us. None of us are going anywhere but 6 feet under or into a tastefully designed urn.

    When you’re dead, you’re dead.


  • Jet,

    I know what you are saying and feeling. Obama has made a number of moves over the last couple of weeks that are at best, unsettling.

    I hope, as suggested above, that these are more than anything else pragmatic moves to garner votes from a broader spectrum of the electorate. Pretty much all of the moves are centrist in nature.

    I am not a fan of so called “faith based initiatives.” I am not happy about the Supreme Court’s decision regarding guns, and I do not favor the death penalty. Obama has come down on what I believe are the wrong sides of all these issues. It is troubling.

    I assume that these things are not being done willy-nilly. I have to assume that Obama’s strategists are attempting to plot his course for the next 4 months to, as I noted above, broaden his appeal and succeed in snatching up a larger portion of the undecided moderate/independent vote.

    Obviously, it could backfire by turning off less moderate liberals who have, thus far been backing him with enthusiasm. I think Obama is a very smart man. I hope he and his staff don’t overcalculate, get too clever and wind up blowing this election which they should win going away.

    Frankly, just the thought of a McCain presidency makes me queazy. I was at one time ambivalent about the man, but over the past few months I have come to dislike him as a man and certainly am not aligned with him politically. I see him as somewhat of a Bush clone and as a mean spirited vindictive old fart.

    I find it somewhat humorous that a number of commenters here were, a few months ago, staunchly against McCain citing that he was far too liberal for their tastes. Now, it appears that he’s their guy, by god!


  • Thanks Mr. B. As for the supreme court, Bush has done his damage, and I fear it will be long lasting damage taking decades to repair-at least until his appointees retire.

    My worry is that the economy is souring, but that big business and big Oil will do all they can to prop it up until after the election, all the while raking in more and more on fat-but-vague multimillion dollar defence contracts and raking in huge oil profits… while they can.

    After the election, they’re banking on Obama winning so they can pull the carpet right out from under the American People and laugh all the way to the bank, knowing Obama will get the blame.

    I’ve struggled with Obama being my “second choice” and over the last month or so, I’ve tried to make piece with it and balance my intellectual scales, but damn it, he’s sounding more and more like Bush, even to the point of saying what he thinks his current audience wants to hear.

    I see a bumper sticker reading DON’T BLAME ME I VOTED FOR HILLARY!

    I’m deeply afraid for this country, because any way you look at this you lose no matter whether McCain gives us four more years, probably bringing all of Bush’s advisors into his cabinet-and die of old age in office leaving a probable vice president chosen by the religious right to balance the ticket, or Obama wins with not enough experience to pick the right cabinet advisors, and caving to the wishes of his financial backers’ demands as to personel…

    It’s a problem I’ll probably struggle right up to the election damned if I do and damned if I don’t…

  • Baritone,

    You characterize Senator McCain as a mean spirited vindictive old fart. I would have you know, Sir, that we mean spirited vindictive old farts are a protected class and that, as such, we resent the slur. For shame! Sensitivity training is the only solution to your problem. Perhaps in the new golden age about to dawn, it will be mandatory.

    Merely as an interim solution, until you find time to undergo such training I offer, as an unwarranted gesture of kindness, a rephrasing along the following lines “as a sensitivity challenged senior citizen.” Not great, but it’s the best I could come up on the spur of the moment and in my white hot anger over your scurrilous remark.


  • My God Dan, the spin on that was so fierce I nearly lost my balance reading it…

  • Dan,

    I am on the cusp of old fartdom myself with 62 years under my rather too large belt. I think I’ve earned enough stripes to use the “old fart” moniker.

    In fact, I see myself as leading the charge of Boomers into the realm of old fartdom come hell or high… hey, speaking of “high”, that sounds pretty good about now.


  • Gary

    I disagree with Obama on guns and on the death penalty, but these more conservative stands are congruent with things he said as a state legislator, before anyone dreamed he’d run for president. And he got his start as a community organizer for a Catholic social agency, so his background would make him sympathetic with government partnering with religious organizations that attack poverty and addiction. He is
    not the ultra-liberal of Republican myth. But for those of us who are more liberal than he is, the alternative is McCain, Bush’s third term. I don’t know that the country can survive more Republican mismanagement. Better Obama, the moderate liberal, than McCain, a hundred years in Iraq, and more tax cuts for the wealthy. Work for Obama, fight for Obama, give to Obama, not because he is perfect, but because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate.

  • Clavos

    Not surprisingly, Dan, B-tone is a boomer…

  • I know it was a long time ago Mr. B. but didn’t your mother teach you to share with your little friends?

  • Gary, I have only one problem with Obama, but it’s a big one; Washington is a town that takes some getting used to, and even more to know the difference between a dolphin’s fin and a shark’s fin when they’re both swimming towards you.

    I love a candidate with fresh ideas, but he also needs the experience to set them in motion using the powers that be and the capital’s secret tunnels of love and politics.

  • Jet,

    I’m not quite as fearful of the future as you seem to be. While a McCain presidency does not sit well with me, I don’t imagine that my day to day life will change dramatically one way or the other. After 8 years of W, how much worse can the “Old Fart” {;-) be?

    Likewise, if elected, should Obama fall short of his ardent following’s expectations (which almost certainly he will) I imagine I will be able to live with it.

    I do believe that the relative success or failure of an Obama (or any) presidency may well rest on the choices he makes for his staff, his cabinet and the rest. Often a president is no better nor worse than the information and advice afforded him by those given the task to administrate.

    You seem to fear Obama will prove to be weak willed, and/or that his inexperience will wind up smacking him (and the rest of us in consequence) in the face. That could certainly happen. It’s a crap shoot no mater how you look at it, or who you support.

    I believe (and hope – keeping fingers crossed) that he will prove to be a forceful and intelligent leader who will surprise and perhaps chagrin his detractors. Of course, first, he has to get himself elected. In the process I imagine that he will make other moves that serve to confound, even anger his base. It is a delicate balancing act that may propel him into the oval office or leave him in McCain’s creaky old dust.


  • Clavos

    “Work for Obama, fight for Obama, give to Obama, not because he is perfect, but because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate if you’re a liberal.

    There. Now it makes sense.

  • Jet,

    My “high” minded dream was just that. I haven’t imbibed in anything stronger than Vernor’s Ginger Ale for around 30 years. I did fly with Lucy in the Sky on a few occasions and pull a few tokes now and again, but those days are long gone.

    I do like to alternately sniff a sprig of Basil and one of Rosemary while visiting my sadly overgrown, weed infested garden now and again. I find it ‘tres difficile’ to get down to the earth with stiff, arthritic knees.


  • I know the feeling Mr. B. Sniffing my cat’s catnip is doing nothing for me (despite how much it looks like that other stuff) anywhere near what it apparently does for her.

    Maybe I should go out and get some rolling papers…

  • Clav,

    Did I sense a bit of derision in your noting my charter membership in Boomerworld?(:~#)>-<==<| B-tone

  • Clavos

    Derision? Derision?


    Why, B-tone how could you even think such a thing?

    I’m cut, B-tone.

    Cut to the quick, I say.

  • Clavos, that HAD to be the worse fake remorse I’ve ever seen. Are you ashamed of yourself? 🙂

  • … you need to work on your French accent too.


  • Clavos

    Actually, I was proclaiming my innocence.

    It’s mind-boggling that B-tone would suspect me, the most even-tempered, kindly, pollyanna-like guy on this site, possibly the entire blogosphere, of being derisive

    What is this world coming to?

    Can’t we all just get along?

    Next he’ll accuse me of sarcasm, mark my words…

  • Lee Richards


    You mention Obama’s inexperience as a big concern in a couple of your comments. Everyone elected to a first term as president is inexperienced in that office.

    More important to me is the experience, intelligence, honesty and common sense of the people a new president will surround himself with, consult, and listen to. His advisors, cabinet, staff, and think-tank friends should have all kinds of experiences and varied backgrounds(business, military, state and federal government, international relations, etc.), be willing and able to present facts and viable options to him, and help the president reach carefully considered and reasoned decisions.

    The entire executive branch–under a smart president exercising good judgement–is what makes an administration more likely to be successful.

    The presidency, by necessity, is on-the-job training.

  • Be careful Jet, I think this site is regularly monitored by Homeland Screwinus, or something like that. Swat teams will be busting down your door momentarily. [;)


  • Clav, I can’t seem to remember when I was so moved… forgive me for doubting you?

  • God I hope they’re cute, musclebound, blond…

  • Lee, I’d say that Hillary undeniably has both a literal and figurative leg up on everyone by watching her husband learn the job first hand and then have to deal with Washington insiders and outsiders for eight years…

    …and downstairs maids

  • Cindy D

    suddenly i am feeling young again…

  • Cindy D

    oh i almost forgot to respond to the article…

    i agree with everything lee richards said.

  • Ruvy

    I’m with the Obnoxious American. I’m sick and tired of your elections already, and all your yammering about it. Unless some really major earth shattering event occurs, I’m voting for Obama in November, in hope that he wins, so the reservists here will see what a real Jew-hater (surrounded by a whole flock of the bastards) does in office – and get good and mad and kick out the American puppets in office here.

    Carry on, though….


  • Ruvy, our TV has been taken over by reality shows. We need the election to keep us entertained.


  • Ruvy

    We need the election to keep us entertained.


    You would do better with a cup of Turkish coffee and a game of shesh besh, Dave.

  • Yes Dave, but “Are you smarter than a 5th Grader?”

  • Clav,

    I would NEVER accuse you of sarcasm. Derision yes. Sarcasm, no. I have long considered you the “Mr. Rogers” of BC, and, perhaps, as you suggest all of blogdom.

    Won’t you be my neighbor?


  • Clavos, aka Mr. Rogers



  • Lee pretty much mirrored my comment as regards the quality of those Obama chooses to make up his administration should he prevail in November, but he also wisely took it one step further in noting that Obama (or any president) must be intelligent and wise in his (or her) reaction to their advice and council. That, obviously, is of paramount importance. At times, it may be the wiser choice to ignore that advice and counciling and go in a different direction altogether. It takes brains and wisdom, and, yes, courage to make those kinds of choices. Will Obama measure up? Stay tuned.


  • Dear god, please don’t say we’re going to have to reply “Correct as usual, you majesty” to him?

  • Re: 48… but Mr. B. how do you explain Bush?

  • Explain Bush?

    Well, Bush and his administration would be the antithesis of everything I’ve said, wouldn’t they?

    Pardon my French, mon ami, but don’t the Bush years pretty much amount to a cluster fuck of the entire country, perhaps the entire world?

    I think some key words I used above that but a rare few would ever consider in the same thought would be “intelligence” and “wisdom” juxtaposed with “George W. Bush.” For my money the now rather infamous photo of our current pres taken while attending Yale; the one with the floppy hat on his head and a megaphone in hand pretty much says it all regarding the relative intelligence of GWB. It’s hardly an image that has “future president” written all over it.


  • The photo that haunts me is him sitting there reading “My Pet Goat” while the country was in crisis mode.

    There are two saving graces for our country…

    A lousy president with a good staff
    A good president with a lousy staff

    Bush was a lousy president with an even worse staff of advisors… probably why they had the last GOP congress sneak him and his croneys immunity against being prosecuted for war crimes.

    How did he know he’d need it?

    With Obama being SUPPOSEDLY as pure as the driven snow, he might be naive enough to pick a bunch of political con men as advisors and not realize it untill it’s too late-like Bush did.

  • Let’s hope that Obama has the innate intelligence to dodge that particular bullet.

    Early on I was backing Clinton. I still could certainly live with her as president. She actually might me damn good at it. But, ultimately I had to read the handwriting, even if she didn’t. I felt, and still feel that Obama represents something new or different. Whether that’s good or bad only time will tell and will be judged in the eyes of the beholder.

    I don’t see him as some kind of great saviour. We all too often hang our hopes on the rising star of someone who, regardless of how talented and smart could not possibly achieve the grandiose heights those hopes represent.

    I just hope that should Obama prevail, that he is able to shake things up, just enough to set a bit of a different course for this country. I frankly don’t believe that radical change would be good for anyone. Basically, our system works, just not as well, as equitably, or as timely as most would wish it. We don’t need wholesale changes, but rather tweaking here and there to get us off of the status quo.


  • I’m skeptical, but skeptically optomistic. If Obama continues on the course that inspired this article, I won’t in good conscience be able to vote for him.

  • The campaign has a long way to go. Some people seem to think it’s in the stretch run, but, hell, we haven’t even had the conventions yet. A lot of things will change over time.

    I am looking forward to the debates. They may shake things out a good deal – seeing the two of them one on one as it were. The biggest advantage Obama has is that he can go to his left. (haha)


  • That’s one thing I’ll give him, he’s a damned good speaker, but unscripted might be dicey up against a practiced veteran of the campaign trail like McCain.

  • Oh, I don’t know. Obama thinks on his feet pretty well. He only rarely succumbs to those momentary brain farts that often plague lesser pols, and rarely looses his cool.

    McCain, on the other hand, is not so quick, and his temper seeps through often when someone pushes him harder than he’s comfortable with.

    And, Obama has it all over McCain when it comes to style points. He looks good in his suits, and I’ve yet to see him sporting a band-aid on his head.


  • You know, the way Bush screwed over McCain in the southern primaries in 2000 it’s a wonder they even speak to each other.

  • I rather imagine that their supposed alliance is more for show than anything else. Even more so than the ‘forgive and forget’ motions that Obama and Clinton have been going through of late.

    That rather odd photo of McCain attempting to hug Bush is reminiscent of a scene in the Seinfeld episode wherein Jerry and George start to hug after their “show” is picked up by NBC. They make a couple of awkward passes at it, but then give it up, neither of them being capable of such emotional demonstrations.


  • B-Tone, I haven’t seen that photo, but bearing in mind what happened to that guy who decided to kvetch at Cheney when he ran into him in a mall a couple of years back, I wonder if McCain was a bit worried that he was about to be jumped by the Secret Service for laying hands on the president…

  • I just popped out to get some prescriptions filled … Can any of you change a tire?

  • I can. If you can pull up out back of the house – drive slowly so as not to damage the rim, I’d be glad to change it for you. Let’s see you’re in Columbus and I’m in Indy. Naw, that’s not too far. You can do it. And I’ll have a cold brewsky awaitin’ for ya.


  • Mojo

    Maliki’s Recent Remarks Could Derail Democratic Campaign For The White House

    Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki raised the prospect on Monday of setting a timetable for the withdrawal of U.S. troops as part of negotiations over a new security agreement with Washington.

    Now that the Iraqis have made their move (as Bush asked us to wait for) Does this mean that Obama’s platform will be limited to increasing taxes, expanding affirmative action and supporting the racial (anti white) hate speach of his supporters and close friends?


  • When and where has Obama stated that he intends to raise taxes, other than for the rich?

    When and where has Obama stated that he intends to expand affirmative action?

    When and where has Obama EVER stated support for hate speach?

    All this crap is made up out of thin air because there is really nothing substantive to attack him with.


  • Mojo,

    Obama’s platform is quite extensive, but I’m damned if I can see where it contains any of those things. Perhaps you can indicate where he espouses all or any of them.

    Perhaps they’re on his website*. For his platform, click on the ‘Issues’ tab where you’ll find the various topics helpfully listed by category.

    Shouldn’t be too hard to find. Have fun!

    * I attempted to provide a link to Obama’s website, but Akismet for some unfathomable reason declared it to be spam. Not to worry: give you one guess what the website address is…

  • Mojo

    *Associated Press 11/2007 – Democrat Barack Obama said Sunday that if elected he will push to increase the amount of income that currently is taxed to provide monthly Social Security benefits.

    *During a speech with John Edwards – He stated that he wants to raise the capital gains tax to 40%, and he’s talked about raising the dividends tax as well.

    *Repealing the Bush tax cuts is raising taxes


    *Obama’s in an interview with Stephanopoulos stated that we should “change the focus of affirmative action policies in higher education — away from race to economic” CODE WORD – expand affirmative action to include middle class minorities…

    *He sat in a pew and listened to and even socialized with an avowed racists Rev Wright for over 20 years…and did nothing but support him financially and politically…

    If you want to debate the issues please take the time to research the candidate and their positions before blindly voting the party line…


  • Condor

    Verners today is not the Verners of 30 years ago. Verners of 30 years ago was brewed and casked in used bourbon barrels for 1 year.

    Today it is chemically reproduced.

    Mama was from Charlevoix, I have local knowledge.

  • Mojo,

    That AP reference on taxes is from November 2007 – before the primaries even began.

    The interview with Stephanopoulos took place even longer ago – May 2007.

    What potential presidential candidates say in the run-up to their candidacies are not necessarily what will end up in their platforms.

    As to your third point: first of all, whether the words of Jeremiah Wright constitute hate speech is debatable and secondly, you claimed that Obama supported such. He has, as I shouldn’t have to tell you, gone on record condemning Wright’s sentiments.

    Obama’s presidential platform – as distinct from his personal private opinions – is on his website for all to see.

    You said it yourself: if you want to debate the issues please take the time to research the candidate and their positions before blindly voting the party line.

  • Wait-a-minute…

    [Logs onto comments tool, checks Mojo’s IP address]

    What’s up, JOM?

  • Bennett

    Yeah, the nuckleheaded blather made it suspect. Glad for the confirmation. Move along, nothing to debate here (at least not with O-JOM)

  • Mojo

    Oh…..I see even though these statements are true and documented, it doesnt matter to you. Its obvious that this is a pattern with him…he is worse than Kerry.

    You beleive what he shouldnt be accoutable for what he said less than 6 months ago or what he did at least once a week for 20 years?

    Oh I forgot with affirmative action we have to lower the standards in order to level the playing field…

    Its all clear now


  • Mojo

    Dregde….I cum in peace…


  • Bennett this article was designed to accomadate both sides of the argument with a civil tongue, which it was right up to a few minutes ago…

  • Mojo

    Dregde….I cum in peace…as you can see no personal attacks from me, Mojo…but alas I am again threatened with bodily harm and personal attacks..why is the left so mean spririted?

    Ill just ignore them and stay on topic…

  • Jet, he is banned, but a ban can only do so much. As he’s figured out, all he needs to do is go to a public library or an internet café and post under another name.

    Unfortunately, this means we can’t be 100% certain that it is JOM.

    We are keeping a close eye, but in the meantime I think the best thing for you to do is just ignore him.

  • Baritone, Re: 62. I got road service to come out and change it for the doughnut, took it over to National Tire and Battery and they wanted $39.99 to plug a tire?

    I went to another NTB and they only wanted $24.99 so I said okay. They came back ten mintues later because they said with Fix-a-flat in it, they couldn’t fix it and I wound up paying $117.45 for a damned tire on a car that I have to turn in at the end of my lease… August 17th!!!!

    This has not been a good day…

  • Doc, my last comment should explain my mood. Please get your death-ray gun out and delete the effected comments for me.

    Sorry I blew up…

    see my previous comment…


  • Sorry to all, I’m going to take a break for a while…

  • Maybe he’ll run out of quarters?

  • Baronius

    That “knucklehead blather” is the only voice of dissent on this board so far. There’s nothing more boring than an internet site where everyone agrees….

    How about this: either Obama has lurched radically toward the Right, or faith-based initiatives aren’t as radically Rightward as you think. No one’s calling for churches to receive government funding because they’re churches. They’re calling for churches to not be excluded from government funding because they’re churches. If the government has to give money to local social programs, it shouldn’t discriminate against the religious ones.

    What makes more sense, Obama being a secret conservative, or faith-based programs being constitutional and beneficial?

    Terrible SF Gate article, by the way. Unless it was supposed to be an opinion piece.

  • Baronius,

    I’ve been to one of those “faith based” charities that’s taking taxpayer money. I spent half a day there when I thought I’d hit bottom and was forced into bankruptcy last year. Several editors and some of my readers here at BlogCritics got together to help me get through it, sending me hundreds of dollars for the lawyers when Legal Aide wouldn’t help because Bush made the Bankruptcy laws so complicated, that they wouldn’t handle it for free anymore.

    I was flat broke and had to sell everything I had including most of my clothes in order to get by. I went to a soup kitchen, intending to offer my help in return for a couple of meals.

    In return for their help, I had to renounce my faith and join their church.

    In return for their help, I had to promise that I wasn’t a jew, and if I was, I was required to reform with their help.

    I watched desparate needy men, women and children told to pray to a soutnern Baptist “god” in order to receive their meals, or they wouldn’t get them. I celebrated when a local tv station here exposed them for the sham they were.

    Though not showing any outward appearance of being one, I was asked if I were gay, and if so would I accept counselling from them in order to renounce my homosexuality. I was near storming out, when I realized that they were askiing everyone that, and it was on a mimeographed paper that we were all required to sign.

    It’s called the concept of –separation of Church and State–. Something that “faith” based initiatives don’t now nor will they ever take seriously… just as long the government keeps feeding them taxpayer money by the bales full.

    Don’t presume to lecture me about why you THINK you know about those charities… I’ve seen it first hand.

  • Doc that library must be open oftle damned late.

  • Baronius

    Jet – You went to a bad charity, which was exposed for its inappropriate actions. I guess the system works.

  • Bennett

    Jet and Baronious, I’ve no problem with reasoned debate, but if the Doc is correct, I would rather pass on reading the continued expression of ugly and inentionally distorted misrepresentations (why JOM was “asked to leave” a while ago).

    That’s not dialogue, it’s nonsense designed (extending credit where it may not be due) to bury the truth, and to disseminate racist/sexist/anti-rational-objective propaganda.

    But hey, he’s entitled to his opinion on a soapbox somewhere in the blogosphere, however crass that opinion may be.

    Carry on.

  • Baronius, if gays can all be judged by one well publicised pervert chasing little boys, that faithbased institutions can too.

    I maintain that no TAX EXEMPT religious organization has any business taking tax money.

    the separation of Church and State.

    Can you imagine the hubbub if it was a Islamic charity flying an islamic flag over the door, or a jewish one flying the star of David?

    There are no federally recognized Jewish holidays for a damned good reason… the right wing religious nuts wouldn’t hear of it, and call for the ouster of any candidate that supported one.

    The “in God we Trust” on our money doesn’t not include Jews, nor moslems or even Catholics-it’s the sole property of the southern baptists… you know it and I know it.

    I call that a blatant disregard for the separation of church and state.

  • In fact I don’t give Obama a pass on the “faith based initiatives” issue. I find it disturbing. But, as I noted above I see it more as political maneuvering than anything substantive.

    I know that Obama is making a move to the center to broaden his appeal. But I am also aware that it is a rather dangerous game. It certainly won’t send me into McCain’s camp, but the faith based issue among other things I noted above do have the effect of dampening my enthusiasm.


  • Point taken

  • Condor

    In reference to #81… a couple of comments.

    First off I generally do not get involved in religious discussion, because they tend to blather on and on and of course as the old saying goes “…. Everybody has an opinion.” But I have a couple of questions regarding some confusion as to what exactly is a faith-based initiative. It my be my complete lack of understanding or perhaps a controlled wording to mean charity but I’m not sure.

    But first….

    Was this soup kitchen run by Margaret Shot (spelling error and I’m to lazy to google it this morning) the ex-owner of the Cincinnati Red’s?

    And secondly… if you’re hungry enough you’ll eat anything… including Baptist soup; I wonder where the water came from.

    Anyway… I’m sorry you had such a negative experience; Any Catholic missions out that way? I used to volunteer at one in San Francisco, and I’m not even Catholic, but it was close by and lots of homeless were nourished there. You could even pray for the soup to be tasteful!

    Also, I am totally confused by the term Faith based initiatives. Are these entities receiving direct operational funding, or is it tax exemption related? And, as charities are granted 501(c) 3 status for tax exemptions, are the opinions expressed here stating that the exemption is the same as operationally funding them with tax dollars?

    I’m not getting the tie in here. I was under the assumption that church run charities are costed out from church member donations (which are tax exempt for those donating). I could be wrong, just never thought of it as any thing other than that.

    If they those donations are tax exempt, what’s the problem, more money to the initiative, less money the government has to directly pay out (providing my understanding is correct).

    Federal campaigns for donations are tax-exempt for all kinds of weird stuff. Plus if you’re working for UNITED WAY you can take lavish vacations in exotic locations with your tax-free office assistant!

    So, if we’re bashing church run charities, let’s bash all charities that function poorly, or are tax exempt and/or provide tax exemptions for donators. Just look at the annual “gift giving” catalog provided “free” from United Way or Combined Federal Campaign and pick a few, there are some real winners, also note that overhead percentages are also posted in the descriptive paragraphs for each sanctioned charity listed.

    This includes organizations that donate facilities and run relocation shelters (of which churches are included), which are used to house victims of flooding, tornado’s, hurricanes, and act as staging areas for food and clothing distribution etc… FEMA loves these sites especially now that God has decided to rid us of places like New Orleans etc…(just kidding). Isn’t it nice to have available resources willing to step up during times of local, regional, and national crises? Isn’t it?

    Anyone against a tax exemption? Is that what the discussion is about? Or is it a general aversion to church(s) in general. I was always under the impression that Faith is different from religion. Religion was described to me as writings of antiquity restated with someone’s opinion thrown in, and denominations as an extension of those writings and opinions with yet more opinion heaped on top… at least that’s what I gained from my religion 101 (I signed up late and missed the Art and Gym openings) class in college years ago. BTW, it was a state run school.

    So please, help me out here. Is this discussion centered around the opinion that the government should be (1) very selective of organizations providing shelter for victims of natural disasters, or crisis intervention (rape, beating etc…) or other charitable functions, and (2) should not grant tax exemption status for just any organization willing to step up and provide the needed facilities and services, and (3) that the government should increase our taxes to provide all the services and facilities necessary for all contingencies. If so, then we’re talkin’ Big Brother here (the actual big brother organization is tax exempt as well, don’t you know).

    Or… are you miffed that Obama isn’t sounding liberal enough to you any longer?

    Enlighten me… I’m cornfuzed.

  • Clavos, aka Mr. Rogers

    Interesting points/questions…

  • Condor, I went there not because I was hungry, but because I was severely clinically depressed. My shrink knew it was nearly impossible for me to leave my home due to posttraumatic stress, and set a goal that I get out and possibly volunteer at a local soup kitchen to help me deal with strangers due to the robbery and beating.

    I went in “seeking help” from them just to see whom I was going to have to deal with. I didn’t stay to get indoctrinated after what I saw that afternoon and left after a few hours.

    Bush apparently wants money to go to “Christian” charities that help local people in need of help in finding them jobs, shelter or a meal. Some of these organizations actually do that like the local food bank and homeless shelters here and they do a great job, (which I’ve also seen first hand, as I’ve been both a volunteer and a contributor when I was much better off.

    Others like the one I also described, demand church membership, or a promise to pay back their “charity” through “good works” to their church or to become a member, promising to “tithe”.

    One had needy people selling mimeographed “newspapers” in green-shirted gangs to stopped cars at intersections walking up to your car and soliciting before the light changed. Some of these are very good charities others send the money to a corporate church “somewhere” near Cleveland or St. Louis which has been exposed as one of Bush’s “faith based” initiatives.

    Yes you will eat anything when you’re hungry, up to and including Baptist soup, and will unwillingly or gratefully or both get a dose of judgmental and bigoted Christianity to wash it down with. You’ll be told that you have failed because you’ve strayed from the path that God and Jesus Christ has put you on, and the only way back to a decent life is to pray… but only at their church.

    All funded by federal tax dollars-the soup-the utilities-that rented building they use and the salaries of the brainwashers for God. It’s one of the things that has turned me away from Christianity, after seeing these con artists working their “magic” in the name of the lord, being paid with our tax dollars.

    I’ve contributed a lot of money to Catholic Charities (I’m Presbyterian) because I’ve seen first hand their good work, and was glad to do it. Unfortunately they’re too far away now with gas prices.

    The ones I speak of were exposed as tax-exempt “churches” that had no fixed address. There are actually churches here that have an awning with their church name followed by “Inc.” or LLC right-on-the-building. I pointed one out on another string but it escapes me. If you go to their website they actually display a photo of their building… it disgusts me.

    The ones that were exposed were “incorporated” so that they could “administer” help to the needy, were tax-exempt, and were taking in government money to help the poor and themselves.

    What am I saying? No tax-exempt “religious” organization should be given our tax dollars in order to indoctrinate people rather than help them.

    The “state” religion in this country is Southern Baptist Christianity-which is why there are no Jewish or Moslem Holidays celebrated/acknowledged by our government-which violates the separation of Church and State.

    At the high point of these religious organizations, they had enough influence to stop all alcohol from being sold in this country (Prohibition) and had our sacred constitution changed to enforce their beliefs. At one time because of them it was illegal to conduct commercial business on the “Lord’s day” Sunday. Our money now says “In god we trust” on it despite the constitutional ban on state sponsored religion.

    Rather than admit that their God and Jesus’ teachings had failed them, and that they were incapable of influencing their own church members to follow “God’s” laws, they have repeatedly tried to force our own government to implement their teachings on all Americans whether they were Christians or not. (Abortion, marriage, etc.)

    Why this article?, because Obama is beginning to sound a lot like Bush in many ways and I wanted to point out that their objections to Judges trying to “legislate morality from the bench” every time they disagree with a ruling has another side of the coin they don’t want you to see…

    Namely-Legislating Religion from the Bench… or the Oval office.

  • While we’re on the subject of Catholic charities, according to the Catholic League’s website, it is stated in part:

    “The whole purpose behind funding faith-based programs is that they are, in fact, superior to secular programs. And the reason they are has everything to do with the inculcation of religious values disseminated by people of faith.

    In other words they’re superior because they try to force or indoctrinate needy people into their faith as it is superior to all others.

  • Condor

    Are you sure that was an FBO sanctioned facility or a Missions Kitchen? GAO guidlines state that:
    Faith-based organizations are eligible to participate in federally administered social service programs to the same degree as any other group, although certain restrictions on FBOs that accept government funding have been created by the White House to protect separation of church and state.
    · They may not use direct government funds to support inherently religious activities such as prayer, worship, religious instruction, or proselytization.
    · Any inherently religious activities that the organizations may offer must be offered separately in time or location from services that receive federal assistance.
    · FBOs cannot discriminate on the basis of religion when providing services (GAO 2006:13[2]).
    [2] (June 2006). “Faith-Based and Community Initiative: Improvements in Monitoring Grantees and Measuring Performance Could Enhance Accountability” (PDF). United States Government Accountability Office (GAO).
    Hence my confusion. If it was an FBO operation under the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives signed into law on an Executive Order (EO), which I’m not too keen on, and it was clearly not operating within code.
    If it was a Missions Kitchen and a church funded outreach center AND not using FBO funds then WYSWIWYG (What You See Is What You Get). Meaning they were not in violation of the EO.
    I’m not getting picky but based on what I have learned today, (more than I knew this a.m.), there is probably broad distinction between a mission and an FBO. Now, in saying that, I am sure there are unscrupulous “churches” out there that are somehow justifying breaking the law and using the money for what they deem okay. But they are to be reported. The storefronts would probably be the worst offenders.
    FBO aside, I knew a food collection ministry (an older retired couple), locally, who were collecting foodstuffs for homeless, or poor… and siphoning off some of that for their own catering business. Or… how about the “Help the poor” canned food drives (with no religious affliation) on Halloween night. Who instead of trick or treating, collected canned goods. Then ATE FOR FREE for several months. If they are really organized, they might collect enough food to supplement their pantry for a year!

    Addtionally, I would like to think (or tend to think), that a Baptist organization would be on the Baptist conference and thus on the dole for FBO monies and would operate within the guidelines. There is an accountability issue at hand, and knowing several accountants who work with churches, they have stated that many churches to day, especially large ones have to be above the board as they are scrutinized by the IRS and the accountant are thus hired to ensure that all business functions regarding the church and its outreach are carefully monitored by the accounting firms under their employ.
    This leads me (personnally) to summarized many statements stated thoughout this thread are rife with anacdotal generalities, unless there is documented or resourced proof otherwise, it doesn’t carry any weight. But it is an opinion piece. No offense is intended, however you are talking about a program that is being endorsed by a prospective president, who is averting the the slings and arrows of a public that are looking for change. FOB’s are a change. But should be monitored by watch dog groups and government agencies (i.e. IRS etc…).
    Let me qualify my position. I am not a volunteer anylonger, however I am called into disaster regions to help with restoration of the power grids in those afflicted areas. I have seen the shelters and the missions at their best and it is highly commendable. There is true passion and compassion for the victims, the sick, the wounded, the homeless of all ages. It would bring you to tears to see the suffering the the selfless giving that these organizations and people bring to the table and the front lines of these catastrophic events. Places and conditions that would keep the average couch potato on the couch and playing armchair turd sucker (complainer). These resources are needed and the government is making the effort to ensure that as much help as is necessary is brought to those in need. Believe me, they are needed and at times of great hardship are welcome.
    Oh and one more thing…. There are certain slangs applied towards turd sucking newscasters who wouldn’t dare put down the microphone or muss their hair to help a wounded crawling old woman to an aid station… I saw plenty of those examples.

  • Mojo

    “In other words they’re superior because they try to force or indoctrinate needy people into their faith as it is superior to all others.”

    No they are superior because the overwhelming majority of these volunteers are trying to change the world one life at a time. Rather than a government worker seeking to sleep on the job and leave at 3:30. It is very sad when someone reaches out and gets help and then turns on the hands that feeds them because of they question their altruistic intentions…

    The reason the majority are Christiain groups is because Jewish and Moslem groups typically focus on the own believers…rather than all people in need..


  • Why shouldn’t they be able to give a little morality training while they feed you? I mean come on, all you have to do is wander down any busy city street and somebody somewhere will be proselytizing or letting you know the end is near.

    Sorry, but nobody gets something for nothing. It seems to be a small price to pay for a free meal and you don’t even really have to pay attention! It’d be like being in church on Sunday! Oh wait, that’s just bringing up my last few experiences in church….

    You want a meal from a religious charity, then suffer the wrath of the preacher while you eat…otherwise, there’s always panhandling, living under the bridge (not you troll) and creating those awesome signs I always see.

    I give the most credit to the panhandlers in the Embarcadero section of SF…these guys had signs that said, “need money for liquor.” I gave ’em money for being honest!

    I tried that on a guy one day that had a sign that said, “will work for food”. I offered to let him come to my house and cut my grass, he fucking laughed at me! Guess he wasn’t that hungry…

    I just don’t see what the big deal is here. I don’t go to church, but I don’t see the problem with letting the govt pass out cheese to the religious charities to pass out to the needy…who else is gonna do it?

    Or is it that secular progressives have such a problem with religion that it doesn’t matter how good something is that they do, it’s just the fact that it’s them doing it???

  • Condor and Andy, I’ve an eye appointment at OSU for presurgery. I’ll be home later this afternoon/evening and will try to respond then.

    Thanks for contributing

  • I don’t see the problem with letting the govt pass out cheese to the religious charities to pass out to the needy

    I don’t have a problem with that either, per se, Andy. The problems start when said charity puts religious conditions on the help they give. That’s unscrupulous and I’d have a problem with it whether the charity was using government money to do so or not.

  • Clavos

    “I’d have a problem with it whether the charity was using government money to do so or not.”

    I don’t agree with you, Doc. If they’re not receiving government money, they are essentially a private operation, and therefore entitled to set whatever parameters they want.

  • Condor

    Religious conditions? If the facility or kitchen is a mission, run by donations from the church members and people are talking with the visitors, and someone is talking about giving, and hope and tying it all together for a complete experience with the mission and the church; it’s what they do.

    Scenario: Soup kitchen, gospel music on the radio, happy smiley volunteers working with the helpless, or homeless. Talking with them, feeding them, seeing if they need anything like a place to sleep, or some clean clothes, or offering conversation and an ear to listen, along with a shoulder to lean on (excuse me if I getting sappy here, but I will get to the point).

    The weary victim hears the music, eats his meal, and looks around at the operation, talks to the workers and thinks, “Gee these certainly are kind people.”

    Knowing that “sometimes the only bible a person reads is the example you set” mixed with the setting… and that the weary victim knows this is a Christian operated soup kitchen… is that religious conditioning?

    Perhaps the government ought to bring some field kitchens with pissed off cooks and line monitors ensuring that all are speedily fed, no clean ups are performed, the trash cans are overflowing, the flies are horrible, and the port-o-potties haven’t been dumped in a week… and nobody working there gives a shit. In fact the only thing that matters is that the crowd is fed and out of there so the workers can their butts back to camp with the whores and booze.

    Once again, WYSIWYG. We’re not “supposed” to profile, but everybody does. From the magnetic fish to the I love Jesus bumper sticker, if the person driving the car that lets you in to a traffic lane, or pulls off to help you change a tire… you are GOING to profile that person, either as “gee whiz what a kind person”… or “Piece of crap’ Christian Scum, Leave me alone!” Which is going to be? If you are in need it will probably in all honesty be a positive assessment rather than one of loathing.

  • Baronius

    So, some of the faith-based charities do a good job, and others don’t. That’s true of any institutions. Should we shut down the State of New York because someone tried to sing “God Bless America” at a high school graduation?

    We mostly all agree that a non-government-funded charity can do whatever it wants to, and a government-funded charity should follow government guidelines with respect to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment prevents an FBO from using federal money for a religious purpose. The free exercise clause prevents the government from discriminating against a charitable organization on the basis of religion.

    So what’s the problem? It seems to be two things: the appearance of the establishment of religion, or a lack of confidence in FBO’s to not preach with federal funds. I personally don’t care if there’s a Star of David, a cross, a crucifix, or a crescent over the door of a charity. I don’t care if they’re chanting druidic spells in the next room, just as long as they’re obeying the Constitution.

  • Baronius

    Doc, Clavos, how about this: you can have a problem with how private charities are run, if you want to. You can have a problem with the way I decorate my apartment, if you want to. You just have no say in the matter.

  • Clav, Condor:

    It’s not just that the imposing of conditions on charity is unfair to those in need; the charities aren’t doing themselves any favors either. As has been noted, desperate (and not so desperate) people will say and do anything for a free lunch.

    A few Christmases ago my wife and I volunteered to go with a group from her mother’s church to visit inmates of the local juvenile hall for games, supper, chat and of course a little evangelizing. (My mother-in-law carefully forgot to mention the evangelism part beforehand.) At the end of the visit, just before we left, the group leader asked the boys for a show of hands as to who was interested in learning more about Jesus Christ.

    Every hand in the room went up.

    Now I guarantee you that for most of those kids it wasn’t about finding faith; it was about making their lives behind bars a little easier: they saw it as a way to build a case for early release, or at least to possibly get out of school, work or chores one or two days a week.

    I wonder how many of the volunteers went home that night rejoicing at the prospect of all those souls to be saved, and how many took a more cynical and realistic view.

  • You can have a problem with the way I decorate my apartment, if you want to. You just have no say in the matter.

    I do if I’m the landlord.

  • Baronius

    If I’m giving my money willingly to another person, you aren’t the landlord.

  • Baronius

    Also, Dread, your analysis is probably accurate about the number of kids who really cared about the evangelization. So what? It’s not your business how a private charity operates; it’s really not your business how effective a private charity is in terms of conversions. It sounds to me like the only person in your story who was duped was you.

  • Clavos

    Doc #101:

    What does it matter?

    Everyone involved got something they wanted out of the event.

  • Clavos

    “You can have a problem with the way I decorate my apartment, if you want to. You just have no say in the matter.

    I do if I’m the landlord.”

    Not necessarily. I’m a landlord, and by Florida law, my tenants have the right to decorate any way they please, short of painting without authorization, ripping up carpet, or doing anything of a similar permanent nature.

  • Mojo

    If it really did happen as posted here, these do-gooders were doing what they do in a Christian charity – comfort and help people by using the power of Christ. Which they believe to be a valid source of support for those in trouble and in need. In addition thats the whole idea behind faith based charity – they work better because of the faith and dedication of the workers.

    Hey if someone is down on their luck with no money, family or friends…whats wrong with a little prayer!

    I highy recommend the next time someone is in need to go to their local State Department of Motor Vehicles Facility and see what type of help they gets…


  • I’d love to see any of you sit silently in a soup kitchen eating while an Islamic Fundamentalest sect leader stands at the table preaching loudly that Allah will punish the infidels who have invaded the middleastern holy land.

    I’d like you to sit quietly while being quized as to your personal private faith, afraid that if you told him you were christian, he’d pull the bowl of greul you were eating away and ask you to leave.

    I’d like you to sit peacefully knowing that the mosque above your head was renting its own basement from itself using government money, along with them charging taxpayers for the food they’re serving, the electric used to play the arabic music playing in the backround interspersed with anti Jewish announcements.

    Faith-based means any CHRISTIAN-ONLY fundamentalist sect in this country can charge our taxpayers for anything they can get away with, and no one will complain about the money spent…

    None of your are looking at the big picture. Just like Prohibition in the constitution, just like states passing measures against sodomy HETROSEXUAL OR homosexual, like the anti-abortion restrictions, like laws passed to prohibit business on sunday, the right wing won’t be happy until the KING JAMES bible has completely replaced our constitution. even local sects trying to prohibit hospital care for people because medicine overrules God’s will for that person to live or die.

  • Baronius (and Clav):

    You’re quite right: I am entitled to my opinion about the decor in your apartment. (Hideous portrait over in the corner there, by the way. It doesn’t really go in that frame. And those drapes are so 1985.) And I can’t make you change it.

    I know I don’t have any say in how a private charity doles out its funds. I can, however, express my disapproval of its methods, and that is what I did.

    But this conversation arose from Jet’s experience with the soup kitchen which, as I understand it (correct me if I’m wrong), had been receiving federal funding under Bush’s Faith-Based Initiative.

    In that case, as a taxpayer (the landlord in Baronius’s analogy) I do have a say.

    And Clav @ #105: I don’t think Mr Rogers was ever quite that cynical…

  • The Obnoxious American

    “the right wing won’t be happy until the KING JAMES bible has completely replaced our constitution.”

    Jet, Given to bouts of hyperbole?

    I am a right wing person (albiet more on the center) and I don’t think the bible should replace the constitution. There are plenty of pro-choice, pro-gay republicans just like there are liberal democrats who are in favor of the defense of marriage act or tax cuts. Not all liberals like Obama either.

    I am getting a huge kick out of this thread. It seems like you guys are starting to realize that with Obama, there is no there there. I was never impressed with Obama, he gives great speech, not much else. Have yet to see evidence of any “judgement” that he is so famous for.

    I’d advise yall to take a gander at bret stephen’s article on WSJ.com. He correctly notes Obama’s shifting position on Iraq since last year, his opposition to the surge, the fact that the surge worked making his main platform issue much more straightforward to deal with should he actually get elected.

    But most importantly the article notes that Obama’s main selling point, his supposedly superior judgement, considering his shifting positions and his being against the surge in the first place, is really in question at this point. Not that any of the kool aid drinking liberals here would call Obama’s judgement into question. But they should, they really should. Too late to nominate Hillary?

  • The Obnoxious American

    And incidentally I favor faith based program sponsorship. I agree with some of the points you made, but it’s never as you describe.

    How many homeless are fed or clothed by church sponsored soup kitchens or thrift shoppes? And these faith based organizations are already getting assistance from the government in the form of different tax treatment. Why wouldn’t we want these groups to do even more for the community?

    The scenario you describe simply isn’t based on reality. And what’s to stop so-called non-faith based groups from pushing a faith based adgenda? Nothing. This is a meaningless point. Nobody seems to care that NYC created a public school centered around Islamic study, the ACLU is fine with that, but the left screams if the big bad church gets a dime. Puleeze with a huge eyeroll on top.

  • Mojo

    “None of your are looking at the big picture.” That’s right this is America. No one forces people to do anything. Rather than play the role of a victim, due to your own misfortunes and financial mismanagement you could have simply walked out the door and went to some other agency.


  • Not to mention the pink shower curtain with the flamingos… good lord!

  • Obnox, I’ve very rarely had a kind word for Obama so there was no “coming over to your side”. In addition, I purposely wrote this one in a way to show both points of view.

    I have one problem… this election it looks like I’ll be voting against someone instead of for someone.

    Simply because I don’t think I could bear to see McCain in the white house, have him die of old age or alzhiemers and some far right-wing vice president that got on the ticket to balance it, take over as President.

    Damn, I need to use that period key more often…
    now where did I put it?

  • Mr. Rogers (Fred) was a personal friend of my highschool choir director. He did his broadcasts from Channel 13 in Pittsburgh and I’m one of the few who could say that I’ve actually walked through the Neighborhood of Make-believe studio.

    He was also an ordained Presbyterian Minister who would occasionally sub for our minister maybe once a year.

    He was a sweet and gentle man

  • Obnox, I don’t give a flying fuck whether you believe it or not, it happened just as I described it.

  • Clavos


    I didn’t mean #105 in a cynical way; I really believe that if everyone involved got something they considered good out of it, then where’s the harm?

    On the contrary I see it as a positive. I agree that it’s unlikely that the kids suddenly acquired religion, and some of the congregants also might have erroneously thought that they had brought religion to the kids, but they probably also got a good feeling out of just helping the kids, don’t you think?

    I don’t even see how that is cynical, actually.

  • Baronius

    Jet, did you even read my comments? Never mind that; did you even read your comments? You said that you’ve seen FBO’s that operated without evangelizing.

    The Baptists are not taking over the country. Maybe they’d want to; I don’t know. But according to the law that Obama and Bush support, they can’t. There will be no preaching at the Muslim, Jewish, or Christian FBO’s if the government does its job in patrolling them. I know that there are Muslim ones. I’ve never heard of Jewish ones, but I don’t study the issue.

    I just can’t imagine why you think faith-based initiatives matter. There is no “big picture”.

  • B, I was reacting to “The scenario you describe simply isn’t based on reality” which I somehow took as your accusing me of making the whole thing up.


    I’m a little edgy now that a certain asshole is back in town. The anger shouldn’t have been directed at you and I apologize.

    I’m man enough to admit I was wrong…

  • Think of it this way,

    You’ve found yourself laying horizontally under a door, every 60 seconds a five pound rock is put ontop of it until you can’t stand it any more.

    Your tormentor has the nerve to ask you which one of those stones matter the most?

    It’s not the little insignificant things, it what they mean collectively.

  • I’m not nit picking at each one, I’m trying to sound the alarm at the collective effects of our constitutional freedoms beeing limited and/or taken away by the Carey Nations, Jerry Falwells, Pat Robertsons and Anita Bryants of our Nation.

  • Condor

    #108 “Faith-based means any CHRISTIAN-ONLY fundamentalist sect in this country can charge our taxpayers for anything they can get away with, and no one will complain about the money spent”

    That’s not correct. According to the Executive Order and the GAO FBO are not exclusively Christian.

    Also… prohibition opened more drinking establishments, and hired more professional musicians than if the Constitution wasn’t tinkered with. Hence, my 2 rules for selecting my candidate for any presidential election

    1. don’t mess with the constitution
    2. don’t mess with the constitution

  • Baronius

    Except that they’re not taking away our freedoms. Your fear of its happening isn’t the same thing as its happening. There are laws against FBO’s using government money to fund envangelization. Obama isn’t trying to use the government to wipe out gays. Most people spend most of their time not caring about what you or I do. That’s not a sad thing, in fact it’s healthy for them. Some people disagree with you or me; some agree. There’s no unchecked mass movement against either one of us. To see Barack Obama as a leader of the anti-gay hit squad is just unfounded.

  • Condor

    “You’ve found yourself laying horizontally under a door, every 60 seconds a five pound rock is put ontop of it until you can’t stand it any more.

    Your tormentor has the nerve to ask you which one of those stones matter the most?”

    Good example. If I were that situation and could still pass air over my vocal chords I would tell the tormentor that the rock which mattered most is one that will bash my head in and cease the agony. And then I would ask the tormentor to quit screwing around and get it over with.

  • Condor

    I agree with Baronius, most people are too busy with life and really just don’t want to be squeezed hard with taxes and consumer costs.

    I would like to think that people want as unencumbered lifestyle as possible.

    You know… life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Didn’t we just celebrate that?

  • “More weight!”

  • Mojo

    Our constitutional freedoms beeing limited and/or taken away by the Barak Obama’s of our Nation.


  • Arch Conservative

    “With Obama’s recent declaration of support for Bush’s Faith Based Initiatives giving federal taxpayer’s money to religious institutions, it is both troubling and a little frightening that Obama is beginning to sound more and more like Bush in many ways… ”

    Don’t worry Jet….Obama doesn’t really believe in faith based programs, he’s just pandering his ass off.

    In fact if you were to get Obama alone in a room I’m sure you’d be pleased as punch to discover that he agrees with everything you believe. Conversely if I was in a room alone with Obama I’d find he agrees with everything that I believe in. Gee who knew we were so alike Jet.

  • Arch, I’m honored you read it all the way through… unlike one of your wannabe’s.

    It was written to spawn debate on both sides and I’m glad I succeeded.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Big deal out of nothing. Barack’s asking for faith based initiatives is not a bad thing–if it continues to get Americans involved in making the world a better place.
    ANYONE who would not vote because Hillary isn’t nominated or who would stay home from the polls for any reason has no business spouting off about anything.

    ANYONE who votes on only one issue is simply not informing him or herself. Be he or she left, right or center.

    What every needs to do is read each candidates positions. Listen, think, learn. Vote intelligently.

    We all should stop spouting off about nothing. Spout off about what matters.

  • Anti-abortionists do it all the time, so do anti-gay marriage, born-again christians. It’s a fact of life Lisa

  • I don’t get why anybody cares if they evangelize. It’s not like the folks that frequent soup kitchens vote very often anyway! And I would bet those that have a problem with evangelizing wouldn’t have a problem with anti-evangelizing…I mean, come on, you read just as many comments against religion here at BC as you do for it…

    I bet some of you would love a soup kitchen that preached there is no god…

  • Clavos

    “I don’t get why anybody cares if they evangelize.”

    Neither do I.

    “I bet some of you would love a soup kitchen that preached there is no god…”

    Yes, I would.

  • Again… the more our government is involved with ANY religio9n, the more likely that new laws will be passed reflecting religious dogma.

    You’d be royally pissed if someone came up to you and said that beer you’re holding is illegal. You laugh but because of religion mixing with politics, that’s exactly what happened during Prohibition.

    Mixing religion and politics is dangerous, especially when one is preferred over another as is southern Protestaamt-vs Judism, Islam, Catholisism.

  • Jet – It’s only 10:30, how’d you know I already started drinking?

    I’m already pissed off because of something else I like to partake of that the govt of this “free” country tells me is ill-eagle. And I’m sure it’s ill-eagle for pretty much the same reason. God bless Amsterdam!

    Clavos – wouldn’t a soup kitchen that preached there is no god still be preaching??? Then again, you don’t seem to be to concerned about the preaching aspect of the whole thing either…

  • My god I got through to one person, what the hell did I do with those rolling papers?

  • I’m not a big fan of papers…

  • Walk a mile in my shoes before you laugh it all off and brand me paranoid. I’m sure there are stereotypes that apply to you that aren’t true.

    Mexicans are lazy and stupid enough to work for nothing.

    Arabs are invading this country and refusing to learn our ways or even speak our language.

    Irish are drinkers

    Blondes are easy suxual pickings for sex and aren’t all that intelligent.

    I’ve lived my whole life with influencial groups in this country convincing my friends, neighbors and employers of lies that…

    A. I kidnap little boys from playgrounds, and inocent husbands from gym locker rooms, and them sodomize them into becoming fags so I can propogate my species.

    B. That I only have one thing on my mind at all times-sex.

    C. That god gave all faggots AIDS and that if you talk, shake hands or accidentally touch me, you’ll get it.

    D. That any hetrosexual that proclaims to be my friend will instantly be branded a faggot too by his peers and ostrasized for being perverted by me.

    E. That it’s alright to fire me from a job I held for 10 years because you found out I was a homosexual.

    And finally
    That I CHOSE to live this way…

    Think about why none of you would go out and tell five of your closest friends you are gay (even though you’re not) and see what happens-then you’ll see the hell I live every minute of every day of my life and why I fucking fear fundamentalist Christianity influencing politics.

  • I used to think that way Andy, but if I get really stoned my bong gets broken and I have to get a new one.

  • Andy that harangue was aimed at the general public-not you…

  • I bet some of you would love a soup kitchen that preached there is no god…

    It would be very strongly preferable to a soup kitchen that preached there was no soup.

  • Nope, they all preach there is no soup without God.

  • Clavos

    “Clavos – wouldn’t a soup kitchen that preached there is no god still be preaching??? Then again, you don’t seem to be to concerned about the preaching aspect of the whole thing either…”

    Correct on both counts, Andy. See Doc’s #41 for further amplification.

  • Clavos

    “Blondes are easy suxual pickings”

    Oral is it with them, huh?

  • Thank god I’m due at my shrink at noon today.

  • call it a freudian slip of the finger… then again, forget it…

  • Jet – it’s not only christians that think that way…recall, won’t you, what Irans’ fearless leader said about gays in Iran. They don’t exist, it’s only in our vile country that you and your kind are even allowed to live long enough to corrupt the rest of us…thank god for that hey???

  • Bongs ain’t cheap either! Makes me think I need to take a glass blowing class.

    That was GLASS Jet…GLASS!!!

    Such a dirty mind!

  • Very strange, I had initially put the last two comments together in one comment but it said it was s pam. I seperate them and all is fine…very weird!

  • Stop getting my hopes up bitch

  • Geez, I’ve got to be at OSU in fifteen minutes and my hair is still in curlers… later

    posting or even loggin on is a royal pain here and seemingly no where else!!!


  • Mojo

    The reason Obama is becoming more and more unelectable as time goes on is due to the fact that the more we know about him the less remarkable he really is…Case in point – here are two of his famous quotes that he spews like a broken record on the campaign trail…
    “It’s not just enough to change the players. We’ve gotta change the game. ”
    “We can’t change the way Washington works unless we first change how Congress works.”
    But a quick fact check shows that –
    *His campaign manager David Plouffe also ran the campaign of Sen. Robert Torecelli – one of the most corrupt and disgraced Washington politicians.
    *He recently announced that David Bonior is a “key advisor” – a guy who is a notorious partisan loon.

    Gee… so Obama who is all about change is using two players who exemplify all that is wrong with US politics. That king of change we can do without!


  • Ruvy

    I see you have managed to veer off to the subject of soup kitchens.

    Here I have personal experience and can compare Protestant righteousness with Catholic mercy against Jewish justice. This comparison comes from my homeless days in St. Paul.

    I wouldn’t let some damned preacher have the satisfaction of seeing me listen to him yammer on about Jesus, no matter how hungry I was. My pride, my Jewish pride, comes before my hunger or my stomach. So, I never hung around the Protestant “love Jesus and eat” dumps. I left that for the bums with the rolling paper, rubby-dub and the cockroaches who crawled in their beards.

    The folks at Catholic Charities, by contrast, only offended me by saying grace in the name of Jesus. In comparison, I could stand this. I didn’t say the Christian grace. The one rabbi I went to wanted me to go to Brooklyn or Jerusalem to study Torah and Gemara, and become a Lubavicher Hassid, like he was. But his first concern was seeing to it that I had a decent meal in my stomach. THEN, he broached his suggestions.

    I politely told him that it was an excellent idea, and that I would get back to him – I never did. Now that I live here in a religious village – maybe I should get back to him and tell him that eventually, in my own way, I did take his suggestion. But no, I am not a Lubavicher Hassid and never intend to be.

    Anyway, in these brief examples, you see Protestant righteousness contrasted against Catholic mercy and both contrasted against Jewish tzedaká – the doing of justice.

  • Thanks, Ruvy, for that very interesting insight.

    It seems you ran into the extreme contrast of Protestant idealism with Catholic pragmatism.

    The rabbi in your story, thank to Judaism’s lack of emphasis on evangelism, seems to have been the only one to have taken a genuine interest in both your physical and spiritual welfare.

  • Really Ruvy! You mean there article’s that DON’T veer of topic?????????????????

  • You know what Ruvy, with people lobbing bombs at you just because of who you are, I’m certain that you relate to my position as expressed in #138

    Thanks my friend.

  • Ruvy

    I was able to relate to comment #138 long before I moved here, Jet.

  • I know that Ruvy………. thanks

  • Condor

    #158 and #159 wrap it up nicely. Thanks guys. From # 1 to #159…. twisted and turned like a Hunter Thompson piece. It was incredible! No foolin’.


  • Thanks Condor… I try. #138 was me just being frustrated.

  • For my next trick I’ll try a fair and balanced look at Fox News… Of course I’ll have to restock the bong first…

  • Baronius

    Jet, you say that comment #138 was just you being frustrated, but that’s not true. You write a similar comment on most every thread. It’s not peripheral to your thinking. Everything – from soup kitchens to presidential elections – is judged by how it makes Jet feel about his sexuality. I can guarantee you, Jet, that the Christian religion doesn’t think about your sexuality as much as you think about the Christian religion.

  • Cannonshop

    Well…back to the subject…(in a peripheral way noting the news this morning…) It would appear that Obama’s comments DID spark some inside the party nastiness involving Reverend Jackson, with follow-on snipes back at him from Congressman Jackson.

    I think this may have defused it rather handily-the expected indignant huffing from a left-mouthpiece has been sounded, followed by the rush-to-centre by Obama’s supporters denouncing it, and the magnanimous statement by the candidate-all together defusing any serious inside-the-party/movement dissent, since nobody in their Left mind wants to be associated with Jesse Jackson (Loser of three Presidential primaries in a row and holder of the infamous ‘hymietown’ award for poorly-disguised, yet acceptably minority, left-leaning antisemitism.) Quite a stroke of luck there, since it derails actual public discussion of Obama’s actual remarks and what they might actually mean, while making him look more centrist and, as I said, “magnanimous” toward his critics.

    Well played, Obama Camp. I only wonder if Rev. Jackson was part of the planning, or if it was just very fast manipulations by a shrewd Campaign and the DNC.

  • Yeah, that damned FoxNews! They have some nerve airing that open mic crap! That’s what I heard from some crazy bald headed dude on CNN last night anyway!

    And all this time I thought Obama was talking down to those white folks that cling to guns and religion and stuff like that! I guess he just talks down to EVERYBODY!

  • Condor

    “That’s what I heard from some crazy bald headed dude on CNN last night anyway!”

    Carvelle was on CNN last night? ‘Ol “snakehead” is the “Kah-rawlin’ King Snake!” (Quote attributed to Jim Morrison)

  • Right about 10PM I saw him and heard him say that Fox was lower than low for letting that open mic conversation out.

  • Condor

    Yet another line in the sand of the political landscape.

  • #163-sorry I’m boring you Baronius

  • #164-Cannonship, I’m really beginning to wonder if we’re voting or candidates or their handlers.

  • #165-Andy, I used to actually force myself to watch Fox News to see if I was being biased, in the name of being fair.

    After a couple of days, I deleted the channel on my TV so the scan didn’t stop there when I went channel surfing….

  • On the other side of the coin Andy, I also used to watch CBS News until Katie started her anguish broadcasts. Now I flip between NBC, CNN, and reruns of MASH…

  • I wonder if Hillary has learned how to parellel park his campaign bus yet?

  • I get my news from BC!

  • Might explain why I’m so freaking stupid!

  • Condor

    I live in an area in which the TV has marginal (at best) reception. I have never subscribed to cable and haven’t really missed it. Oh, I watch DVD’s occasionally and even those are limited to concerts or ground breaking movies…

    After reading “Subliminal Seduction” as required by a marketing course I was taking at the time, realized then that ALL TV, be it news, sitcoms etc… are driven by one thing. Advertising dollars. News is no longer “news” it’s marketing. Biggest bang gets the big advert bucks. In view of that… it can’t be fair or balanced… it’s just blather, all of it.


  • Andy,Andy,Andy… now what did I tell you about mixing tranquilizers and beer?

  • Sounds like the premise for a good sitcom there Condor…

  • Condor

    I think KILL YOUR TELEVISION was a song by Godfodder… might have been Korn tho’… and no I don’t listen to them, but I have heard the song and the groups.

  • Well, since we’re playing “Name that Tune” we have Kill your televion by:

    Marylin Manson
    Ned’s Atomic Dustbin?

    Take your pick!

  • There’s no way to express my outrage without offending a lot of people here, but Obama has just hit another low.

    Believe it or not (especially if you’ve been to any Wal-Mart lately) here in the U.S. we speak English.

    However with so many illegal Mexican immigrants refusing to speak our language, Obama is calling for all school children to speak Spanish!

    What’s next?

  • Jordan Richardson

    All school children in Canada learn French and somehow we haven’t gone down the toilet yet. A little multiculturalism isn’t a bad thing, you know.

  • Sorry, but on this I’m standing firm. It’s fine for our kids to learn a SECOND language, but it should be an OPTION not a necessity.

    As a matter of fact, I took three years of German in high school.

    We should require all immigrant kids to read and write English.

  • Clavos

    Actually, being bilingual is an EXCELLENT thing! I know from experience.

    ALL schoolchildren in Europe are taught English in addition to their native tongue.

    Americans are the laughingstock of the world for being almost all monolingual.

    Old (foreign) joke:

    What do you call someone who speaks several languages? A polyglot.

    Someone who speaks two languages? Bilingual.

    And one who only speaks one language? American.

    Bravo for Obama! He just went up several more notches in my book.

  • The reason it may become necessary is because immigrants REFUSE to speak English.

    We didn’t require German, French or Italian immagrants to speak English once they moved here, because they were intelligent enough to know that if the were going to HAVE to speak the language. However we have a sizeable block of our population that not only REFUSES to learn the language of the country they moved to, but they’re insisting that we accomadate them by forcing all government agencies to have all documents in both Englis and Spanish.

    I have nothing against forgien immigrants what so ever, but if they’;e going to move here and live here, they should be required to learn OUR language…

    NOT the other way around.

    This rant is NOT about Spanish specifically, it applies to the multitude of Middle Easterners in burkas babbling at their kids too.

  • Jordan Richardson

    We should require all immigrant kids to read and write English.

    You do.

    Also, Obama’s remarks should probably be seen in their entirety instead of just under the relentless conservative spin. There’s NOTHING in his speech about forcing kids to learn another language. It’s a speech about personal responsibility, not forcing kids to learn a language.

    Now perhaps, Jet, you’d like to respond to the context of the remarks instead of the soundbyte.

  • Jordan Richardson

    And shock of all shocks, for once I agree with Clavos!

  • Jet,

    Esta mucho mas facil para aprender Espanol cuando este un nino que cuando este mucho mas viejo.

    Actually, I think Senator Obama got it wrong. Chinese should be mandatory, not Spanish. They seem to be taking over the whole world, not merely Texas and California.


  • If you permanently move to China, you damn-well better know Chinese

    If you permanently move to Spain, you damn-well better know Spanish

    If you permanently move to Japan, you damn-well better know Japanese

    If you permanently move to France, you damn-well better know French

    If you permanently move to the United States, you damn-well better know… Spanish?

    Why can’t I be conservative about something without taking flack for it?

  • Jordan Richardson

    You didn’t listen to the speech yet, did you?

  • Quote:

    I don’t understand when people are going around worrying about, we need to have English only. They want to pass a law, we just, we want English only,” Obama told supporters in Powder Springs, Georgia on Tuesday. “Now, I agree that immigrants should learn English, I agree with this. But understand this, instead of worrying about whether immigrants can learn English, they’ll learn English, you need to make sure your child can speak Spanish.”

    The problem is that they WON’T learn English, and why should they? Just because we do?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Alright. Clearly you’re not interested in listening to the whole thing or framing things in the proper context, so discussing this is pretty futile with you. Seems to be a trend in American politics, so I can’t say I’m all that surprised.

    Have fun being alarmed and pissed off about nothing!

  • Well, I’ve succeeded if only that I got Jordan to agree to Clavos… or did Hell just freeze over?

  • Jet,

    Probably because it’s such an unexpected and traumatic experience. Actually I wasn’t disagreeing with you; it warms my heart to see you taking even a modestly conservative position. My point (in Spanish) was that it’s a lot easier to learn Spanish as a kid than as an old fart; I should perhaps have gone on to comment that it would be a good thing to get an early start, since before long will be necessary, like it or lump it, to speak and understand Spanish in the U.S. The last time I had the misfortune to pass through the Miami airport half a dozen years ago, it was already difficult to communicate, and I unfortunately didn’t speak a word of Spanish back then.

    As to living somewhere you don’t speak the language, it’s terrible. That’s why I’m doing my miserable best to learn a little bit of Spanish. Lots of gringos don’t even do that: they just live in gated communities where they don’t need to speak Spanish or, perish the thought, to mingle with the dirty rotten local foreigners who, if they had any sense, would learn English.


  • If you think I’m going to quote the whole thing Jordan, you’re wrong. Go spit in someone else’s koolade

  • Dan, my little blurb after each article used to say that I was a conservative trapped in a liberal’s body.

    I grew up in a very very very REPUBLICAN party. I’ve even written an article here naming the much mistakenly maligned Gerald R. Ford as my political hero.

    But every time I try to express anything in the way of the “little right of center” part of me, the roof falls in.

    I guess I’ll have to change my “handle” to Arch Liberal to keep from getting my head bitten off on occasions such as this.

  • You know what got me started on all this? Would you believe Burkas??? It royally pisses me off that when female reporters or diplomats go the middle east, especially Saudi Arabia, they have to cover their hair.

    We have to RESPECT their customs or all hell would break loose. So why is it that when they come here they don’t respect our customs, or our style of dress, or our language.

    I don’t know, it’s just lately I get the feeling the our country is getting shit on by other countries and it’s because Bush has made us international laughing stocks and objects of pity.

    There, are you all happy now?

  • When I call my local cable company here in Va Beach, the phone number is 222-1111. I make the same comment every time I call and the first thing I hear is, “Press 1 for English”. I ask the person on the phone, “why do i have to press 1 for english, I already pressed it 4 times when I called you”.

    I love the argument that we should learn it because our country is being overridden by it. What kind of shit is that? The country’s being overridden with pot too, so all of you go out and buy a bong, because hey, it’s inevitable anyway!

    A second language is a good thing, but you shouldn’t learn it because you believe that eventually that will be the primary language in OUR country. We speak american here. Fucking learn it or leave.

    My grandfather came to this country from Italy, by the time I knew him he didn’t even have an accent! Why, because he was proud of where he moved to, probably as proud as he was of where he came from…

    So, what’s the excuse for not learning english when you get here…to lazy, to stupid, or to indifferent?

  • Condor

    Don’t worry Jet, I agree with you. Mr. Obama, if you want our children to learn a second language, it should be Latin. Then you can effectively move on to 4 other romantic languages. Plus ground oneself in english.

    Then ALL children you learn to sing in solfège or as it is sometime referred to as solfeggio (do,ri, mi, fa, sol, la, ti do). Upon learning the solfège the student progresses to reading music. Group singing follows along with theory and harmony etc… then, and only then would you be able to take all this musical knowledge over to an instrument. You are effectively grounded in the basics.

    If you do not desire to pursue an instrument, you can sing heartily in pubs throughout what used to be termed as the British Empire.

    (Not to get off track). Has anyone noticed that pubs in foreign countries break out in song at the drop of a hat. And on the beaches the cloths come off. In America? No way, we’re too uptight.

    We could stand to loosen up a bit. But I’m standing firm on the language issue. America IS a melting pot, not a Balkenized mosiac. It’s traditional in as much tradition we can assume after such a short time.

    Is Europe having trouble with the challenge of mulitiple languages. Yes they are. The globe is “shrinking” rapidly and these are the pains associated with a smaller world

  • Every time I call Microsoft, or Yahoo tech support I get someone in Inda or Indonesia that I can barely understand, and can barely understand me.

  • Amen Andy… Amen

  • That probably why all international airline pilots are required to servicably speak English Condor…

  • Just to make everyone who speaks Spanish laugh, and lighten up the proceedings, I went to an on line translator and had them translate Andy into Spanish.

    I have no clue what it says, but it’s probably not close…

    Cuando llamo mi compañía de cable local aquí en playa de la Virginia, el número de teléfono es 222-1111. Hago el mismo comentario cada vez que llamo y es la primera cosa que oigo, “presiono 1 para el inglés”. Pregunto a persona en el teléfono, “porqué tengo que presionar 1 para el inglés, yo lo presioné ya 4 veces en que le llamé”.
    Amo la discusión que debemos aprenderla porque nuestro país está siendo eliminado por él. ¿Qué clase de mierda es ésa? ¡El país que es eliminado con el pote también, así que usted salen y compran un bong, porque hey, es inevitable de todos modos!

  • Clavos

    It’s also why all European children are required to learn English, Jet.

    But, I think Dan is right. Any American currently below the age of 25 WILL have to learn to speak Chinese, because they already are eating our lunch, and we don’t even realize it, most of us.

    In 20 or 30 years, they will own us and all the rest of the world as well; and without firing a shot…

  • You’re right Clavos-they hold title to everything in this country that Bush pawned to pay for his war.

  • Condor,

    Sic transit gloria.

    I still think that learning Chinese is a good idea. Here is a little known fact: Panama has a daily Chinese language newspaper. There is no English language daily.


  • Didn’t a president of Peru once have his eyes done in order to appear Japanese?

    Anyone know what the translator said and how accurate it was… it’s usually good for a laugh.

  • Au Royaume-Uni aussi, le majorité ne parle que l’anglais.

    Actuellement, c’est obligatoire d’apprendre au moins une langue étrangère, alors les choses pourrait changer.

    Mais quand j’étais un étudiant, dans l’époque Pleistocène, on pouvait choisir n’apprendre plus une autre langue au delà de l’âge de 14 ans.

    Moi, toutefois, j’avais une passion pour toutes les langues – aussi, j’ai appris le français, l’allemand, la russe et même bref le gallois!

  • I just ran the Spanish translation back through it into English and got this…

    When I call my local line communication company here in beach of Virginia, the telephone number is 222-1111. I comment out he himself whenever I call and is the first thing that I hear, “I press 1 for the English”. I ask person on the telephone, “because I must press 1 for the English, I I already pressed 4 times in which I called to him”.
    Master the discussion that we must learn it because our country is being eliminated by him. What excrement class is that one? The country that is eliminated with pote also, so you leave and buy Bong, because hey, is inevitable anyway!

  • Sounds like some of my clients…!

  • Doc supposedly said…

    In the United Kingdom also, the majority speaks only l’ English. Currently, c’ d’ is obligatory; to learn at least a foreign language, then the things could change. But when j’ stays a student, in l’ time Pleistocene, one could choose n’ to learn another language beyond l’ more; 14 years age. Me, however, j’ had a passion for all the languages – also, j’ learned French, l’ Russian German, it and even in short Welsh!

  • Clavos

    “Didn’t a president of Peru once have his eyes done in order to appear Japanese?”

    No, he actually IS of Japanese descent; his name is Fujimori. There are a LOT of Japanese, not only in Peru, but throughout South America; especially in Brasil.

  • Thanks Clavos… that explains a lot 🙂

  • Jordan Richardson

    Jet, I’m not asking you to quote the whole thing. Just LISTEN to the whole thing before you start spouting off that Obama’s forcing schoolkids to learn Spanish or that he thinks Americans don’t need to learn “English.”

    As to the idea that “America IS a melting pot,” is that set in stone? The assimilation of other cultures to this broad whatsit called “American” is something to strive for? Canada is a mosaic and our citizens are proud of it. It’s nothing to fear or be ashamed of, nor does it take away from having a national identity. I seriously wonder about people who hold to some sort of imagined national standard and assume that all citizens who enter must amass themselves into this muddled goo, but I guess that’s why I live here and not a few minutes to the south.

  • Jordan, one of the things that holds our nation together is English, so we don’t have the necessity to have to consantly be asking someone “What did he say?” while standing on our own soil.

    Sorry if you think that’s petty of me.

  • Jordan Richardson

    One more addition here:

    I don’t think people should be forced to learn English out of some desire that every American is “alike.” I think people should have to learn English because of necessity. This has economic implications, mainly.

    If you want to work in commerce or open up a business or get employment in an English-speaking country, obviously learning English is going to be a prerequisite. The problem lies with the company’s that hire people out of India and outsource their call centre, not with the people that actually work the call centre. If a company is going to make the mistake of hiring people that don’t speak or read English, they’ll deal with the repercussions of that error and the annoyed customer will take his or her business elsewhere.

    You should learn the language out of necessity, not out of forced legislation.

  • Jordan Richardson

    But Jet, NOBODY is arguing with you on that point. Not Obama, not me, nobody.

    You’re imagining opposition where there is none.

  • Now Jordan, if I didn’t everyone would start worrying about me, and sending concerned e-mails!

  • Jordan Richardson

    So, what’s the excuse for not learning english when you get here…to lazy, to stupid, or to indifferent?

    Now Andy, I’ve made my mistakes. But was this meant to be intentionally ironic or was it just an honest gaffe?

  • Jet, I think you need to change your online translator. I suggest Alta Vista’s Babel Fish… it’s quirky, but it can at least recognise that the apostrophes are actually part of what it should translate!

  • I apologize, Jet – I see that you did use Babel Fish: I just tried it myself and got the same result!

    Alas, it has been taken over by Yahoo and, as is the wont of that company with things that ain’t broken, they have royally buggered it up.

  • Clavos

    Actually, most immigrants, including the Latinos, DO learn English, and by the second generation they ALL learn English.

    With 51% of our population foreign born (that’s right; the MAJORITY), Miami may well be the most international city in the country these days, yet rarely do I run into someone who CAN’T speak English, and I suspect what most of you encounter is the same case. Most of the Latinos in this town CHOOSE not to speak English when they don’t have to, so the net result is I can go entire days all over the city and never hear a word of English spoken, but the people I hear speaking Spanish can, and do, answer in English when addressed in that language.

    In addition to Spanish, one hears a lot of other foreign languages on the streets and in public places here, including: Russian, Portuguese, Farsi, Hebrew, Creole (Haitian), French, German, Italian, and of course, Brit.

    All of these languages are spoken by substantial portions of the population here, particularly (in order) Creole, Portuguese, French, Russian, and Hebrew.

    Again, I can’t recall the last time I ran into someone who has been here longer than a few months who was unable to speak any English.

    Just because you don’t hear recent immigrants speaking English doesn’t mean they can’t, and in that respect the immigrants of today are no different from the immigrants of yesteryear; witness all the Little Italys and Chinatowns in cities like New York and San Francisco.

  • Cannonshop

    #170 Jet, it’s the Handlers, definitely the Handlers, or you could chalk it up to evaluating candidates based on their choice of staff…and that’s assuming you live in a state with real elections where one party doesn’t control the elections office so completely they can fabricate as many fictional voters as necessary to win a close contest.

  • Ruvy


    Speaking as an Israeli with two children in Israeli schools, I would prefer them to have to learn Arabic as well as English. We live in the Arab world here, and that fact will not go away without megadeaths on the Arab side. So, speaking from a practical point of view, every child here should be able to understand what Arabs say about us: particularly as they are appear to be the enemy at hand.

    Thus, when looked at from my POV, Obama’s suggestion, while it may rankle at your pride as an American, makes eminent good sense. Three languages are dominant in the Americas; English, Spanish and Portuguese. Most Brazilians can manage in two languages; many other Latin Americans can manage in two languages. Many Canadians can manage in two languages. It is about time that citizens of the United States learned as a matter of course, to speak the other major language of the Americas, Spanish.

    That is the “neighborhood” you live in – get used to it.

  • There must be great commercial pressure to learn English in a big city melting-pot like Miami.

    Fresno is semi-rural, has a plurality Latino population and also a large number of Hmong immigrants from Laos. My wife and I, in the course of our jobs, regularly encounter people who have been in the US legally for many years and still cannot string an English sentence together.

    I guess that since things aren’t so crowded here, it’s easier to stay within your comfort zone. If you never associate with anyone who doesn’t speak your own tongue, what need is there to learn English? Especially when your children do speak it, so any necessary interaction with English speakers can go through them.

    That said, I’m not naïve enough to be unaware that people can suddenly lose their ability to speak English if they perceive it to be to their advantage in a situation. For example, take this phone conversation I once had with a Hmong gentleman:

    A: ‘Hello, may I please speak with Mr Vang?’
    B: ‘This is Mr Vang.’
    A: ‘Hello, my name is XX XXXXXXXX from the Housing Authority.’
    B: ‘Oh yes, Housing. How are you doing?’
    A: ‘I’m good, thank you. The reason I’m calling is because I don’t appear to have received back the documents I requested from you.’
    B: ‘I didn’t get no letter.’
    A: ‘I’ve written to you several times.’
    B: ‘…Hmong speak?’

  • Baronius

    In my youth, you were supposed to learn German if you wanted to go into the sciences. Then Russian was the big craze, because they were America’s political equals. Next, we were told to learn Japanese as they were taking over the world economy. Today it’s Chinese and Spanish.

    Personally, I think the more languages, the better. Children should be taught languages as soon as possible. But a common language is one of the very few things that Americans have in common, and we can’t afford to lose it.

    And is Canada such a successful mosaic? There’s plenty of tension between English-speaking Canada and Quebec. Canada’s having more difficulties assimilating Muslims than the US. Besides, the US is such a bigger experiment. We need commonalities between millions of people, with big population centers in Seattle, San Diego, Miami, and Boston.

    The other thing you have to mention, if we’re talking about languages, is that we invented the internet. That was a huge break for us. If America stays monolingual, we have a chance of turning into a France, but we’re fortunate to have created the international default language. (In fact, the concept of an international language used to be called the “lingua franca”, which should serve as a warning to us. Don’t get too cocky.)

  • Clavos

    That conversation is funny, Doc.

    You’re quite right about the “Sudden English Loss” syndrome; I’ve used it myself on occasion:

    Disculpe, es que no hablo ingles.

    Unfortunately, in Miami, for reasons explained above, it rarely works…

  • Cannonship, I’m from Ohio, where everything was run by Republicans including the election results… as you say.

    Gee, I wonder why Bush won in 2000 2004 and why se got pissed and threw them all out?

  • Please Ruvy! I’m having enough trouble converting kilometers to miles!

  • The reason they come here in the first place is that our system works better than theirs, they know it, so why is it that wnen they get here, they want to hold on to their old ways?

    They could’ve done that by staying at home.

  • From what I understand Canada isn’t as peaceful as we’re led to believe. I seem to remember Quebec trying to separate form Oh Canada several times.

    Could it be the language barrier?

  • The question is do you think in Spanish and translate in your head into English?

  • How about this-If I moved to Australia, would I get out of traffic tickets because I drive on the right side of the road because I’m American…

    …or would I have to bend and drive on the left?

    How do you keep from getting confused and in trouble Doc?

  • Simple, Jet.

    I never learned to drive until I moved here.

  • Jordan Richardson

    From what I understand Canada isn’t as peaceful as we’re led to believe. I seem to remember Quebec trying to separate form Oh Canada several times.

    Yep. This is a constant but not entirely large (anymore) issue in Canada because Quebec is the only province in which French is the majority language and not the minority language. Some people in Quebec want to separate and form their own nation, largely because they feel a disconnect from the rest of Canada in a cultural sense. A friend of mine is an English-speaking woman in Quebec, though, and she seems to do fine.

    Basically the trade-off is that we teach our kids French in schools, carry the language on our products, and make sure that people can speak both languages when working in a federal level in government and services. There’s the odd moronic spat involving Finnish hockey players who don’t speak French playing for the Habs, but those issues blow over relatively quickly and with no harm done. Our feathers don’t tend to ruffle as quickly, it seems.

    And is Canada such a successful mosaic? There’s plenty of tension between English-speaking Canada and Quebec. Canada’s having more difficulties assimilating Muslims than the US.

    We’re assimilating Muslims? First I’ve heard of this…

  • Jordan Richardson

    Jet, I’m wondering if you could clarify how the Quebec separatists aren’t peaceful. How is using the democratic process, having referendums (and being voted down each time), and encouraging public discourse about separation a violent or non-peaceful process? As far as I know, nobody’s gotten shot over Quebec and us English-speaking Canucks have never invaded Montreal.


  • Considering where Quebec is located geograhically I don’t see it leaving Canada any time soon… and certainly not peacefully.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Yes, we’re well aware of where Quebec is located. Of course, Atlantic Canada has been isolated from the rest of Canada because of this much in the same way Western Canada has been isolated because of Canada’s Ontario-centric government. So being separated by another country or by part of another country probably wouldn’t bother the Newfies and Scotians all that much.

    I certainly don’t see Quebec vs. Canada anytime soon, regardless of how/if/when anything significant happens. Any referendum to separate, as I’ve noted, has been defeated democratically and peacefully.

  • Ruvy

    Please Ruvy! I’m having enough trouble converting kilometers to miles!

    Come on, man, stop being a wuss. The hotdog zipping along at 110 km/h is going about 68 or 69 mph, that fool tootling along at 80 km/h is going at a nice slow 50 mph, the guy drooling along the road at 60 km/h is going about 36 mph, and the poor fool being a Sunday driver at 50 km/h is sliding along at just over 30 mph. This is hard?

    Try this on for size: ha’ét! yeladím lifanékha!

    Slow down! There are children in front of you!

  • Is Hebrew one of those languages where if you pronounce that expression slightly the wrong way, it becomes:

    “Ouch! My electric rabbi has eaten your car insurance!”


  • Ruvy is that centigrade or Farenhiet?

  • Dear God, Ruvy I’m beginning to worry…

    A hot dog zipping… a guy drooling… A guy sliding along … This is hard …try this on for size????????

    Uh… I’ll be back in a minute… 🙂

  • You should be proud of me that I didn’t say I prefered inches over centimeters…

  • The church lady just is never around when you need her!

  • …and since I’ve pushed the envelop that far, should I be afraid to ask what “tootling” is?

  • Ruvy

    Don’t feel so bad. Take the inches away from you poor Americans and you all seem so lost! Almost as much as if someone took away the TV!

    I just got off the phone with a Russian fellow who I plan to meet on business next week; I described myself as being about 1.65 meters tall – I have to admit that for all of my being used to metric measure, describing one’s height in meters is very strange.

    Describing a girl’s figure in cms. is equally strange. Thirty six, 24, 38 becomes 90, 60 and 95….

    Imagine how those penis enlargement ads must read in German or French!

  • Jordan Richardson – you say that “Canada is a mosaic and our citizens are proud of it. It’s nothing to fear or be ashamed of, nor does it take away from having a national identity.”

    That must be why your radio and tv stations mandate the percentage of canadians on the air? They tried to take the apostrophe out of Dunkin’ Donuts!

    Your national identity up there is to make sure that everyone knows you’re not us!

  • Jet – I’d say most guys would prefer centimeters over inches…think about it, that little three inch thing you got would be a more like 7 1/2 in centimeters!

  • Jordan Richardson

    Cancon (Canadian Content regulations for radio and TV) is meant to ensure that there’s a certain amount of Canadian media supported on radio and television, although I’m not sure that’s enforced anymore. It’s actually more complex than just ensuring a mandate of the percentage of “Canadians on the air,” but as usual an oversimplification of the facts simply work best in arguments.

    Also, removing the punctuation in Dunkin’ Donuts is something I’ve never heard of. You’ll have to tell me what that has to do with the national identity of Americans before you can tell me how it takes away from ours.

    Look, I’m willing to bet you can find thousands of examples like that. There’s no such thing as a rule without exceptions, although I’m sure there are exceptions to that statement. The larger point here is worth looking at: Canada’s mosaic ideology is something most Canadians are largely proud of.

    Is this a problem for you? As Canadians, we keep being “reminded” by ignorant, stubborn Americans that we are simply “America Junior.” I think you can understand wanting to separate ourselves from the imperialistic “Father Figure” to the South in a number of ways, but it isn’t the sole way we seek our national identity and it certainly isn’t even something most of us are aware of.

    And with Tim Hortons, nobody really gives a fuck about Dunkin’ Donuts.

  • Get it right..I’m an ugly American…I know I am, because another canadian called me one, rest his poor soul.

    Personally, I’d vote for a law that got rid of Alanis Morrisette on my radio! Bitter bitch that she is…

    Explain to me the difference between, “canadian media supported on radio and tv” and “canadians on the air”. I guess that means it wouldn’t be alright if it was a canadian broadcasting something un-canadian?

  • Clavos

    Any American who’s ever met more than one Canadian would never say that Canada is “America Junior.”

    Especially not les Quebecois…

  • Jordan Richardson

    Explain to me the difference between, “canadian media supported on radio and tv” and “canadians on the air”.

    I didn’t say there was a difference. I said you oversimplified the situation somewhat and that Cancon was (is?) more complex than that. It had (has?) to do with the fact that radio airwaves were public (before private ownership snapped most of them up) and ensuring that Canadian culture was maintained as a part of the radio content. Part of that was mandating that 35% of radio content featured Canadians. But the actual regulation had a number of facets, none of which are relevant to the current conversation. Nevertheless, the idea you inferred is quite accurate and I don’t recall saying it wasn’t.

    I think the current state of Cancon is pretty much null-and-void with private ownership of television stations and such. The CBC is left as a public broadcasting station and a certain amount of Canadian content is mandated for that station, but you can understand a publicly funded media outlet would certainly want to support the local economy rather than simply whore out to American interests.


    The national identity of Canada is really more or less defined as a “lack of singular or essential national identity.” It is a gross oversimplification to suggest our national identity is wrapped up in saying that “Canadians are not Americans,” but that seems to be a trend so you can use it if you like. In all reality, the national identity of Canadians has less to do with people being Canadian and more to do with the other cultures and traditions our people bring to the table.

    It’s important to remember that a chief original motivation for Canada’s national unity was anti-Americanism and a resistance to continentalism. That’s why the English and the French were able to unite “up North” in such a way. So Canada was almost defined initially in negative terms, as you suggest. America, by contrast, defined itself by setting parameters of what it means to be an American and what it meant to be anti-American. While America founded itself on deductive politics and was the “New World,” Canada was inductive and largely less adventurous. Canada did what worked and was pragmatic; America was idealistic.

    As time passed, however, Canada branched out more into the global community whereas America moved inwards and further into its established identity. Multiculturalism became a part of the Canadian national identity, whereas different cultures assimilated to American cultures and “melted” into one systematic culture of Americana. While Canada’s national boundaries are considered less important considerably by the average Canadian, Americans still very much have pride in the homeland and protect the borders to the extent of proposing walls (granted to solve a very important issue, but the imagery is satisfying).

    It’s interesting to note that Stephen Harper has recently set up a cabinet portfolio with the title “Canadian Identity” for the first time in history. No idea where he’s going with this, but speculation is that he wants us to achieve a national identity somewhat like Australians, the French, the Brits, and so on.

    Of course, you can always defer to Pierre Berton:

    “A Canadian is someone who knows how to make love in a canoe without tipping it.”

    Or Douglas Adams:

    “Canada is like an intelligent 35 year old woman.”

    Or use any of the countless South Park references. It’s all good to us.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Any American who’s ever met more than one Canadian would never say that Canada is “America Junior.”

    Most Americans have never met more than one Canadian. I married an American; I get the “America Junior” crap all the time.


  • Clavos

    Those of us who live in Florida meet LOTS of Canadians – all winter long…

  • Jordan Richardson

    Ah, the famed Snowbirds…

  • Clavos


    It is said of the ‘birds that they arrive here in October with a new shirt and a one hundred dollar bill, and when they leave in May, they haven’t changed either.

  • Hey I’m a fan!

    I think the pacific northwest is some of the prettiest landscape on the planet…and let’s not even talk about your strip joints and the showers on the stage and all!!! WOW!!!

  • I’m curious, what’s an american dollar get you up there in Canada these days? Last time I was there, it was about $1.20 canadian to $1 american…better, worse?

  • Don’t fret Ruvy, we have some rednecks here that think that a 401k is their mother’s bra size…

  • No way…401k is just another version of SpecialK!

  • Here in Ohio, and growing up in Pennsylvania, I’ve always had the impression that Canadians were equal to us, sort of favorite cousins that lived just across the state lines.

    Jordan is beginning to make me think that they’re looking down their noses at us recently…

    Well, considering what Bush has done to our national prestige lately I can understand that-to an extent. There’s a joke where if you’re in Europe and anyone asks where you’re from, just say your Canadian.

    Also, most of us are so fond of our neighbors up North that we don’t think of GM cars built in Canada as “imports”.

    Considering that most of Canada’s population is situated within a few hundred miles of our border, and that we’d defend Canada with as much concern as we’d defend our own homeland, I’m beginning wonder if your “superiority complex” is common amoung your countrymen or unique Jordan.

    Please clarify…

  • Jordan Richardson

    Jet, there’s no “superiority complex.” We just don’t care as much as Americans tend to about issues of nationalism, patriotism, and the like. If that’s a “superiority complex” in your mind, have at it. In my mind, there’s nothing wrong with realizing and celebrating our differences. I have nothing against America or Americans, nor do I feel superior to them. If I did, I doubt I would have married one.

    That said, there are many good reasons that Canadians want to distance themselves from American foreign policy and I think you can relate to that. That doesn’t mean we feel superior to Americans, again. I think if you’d read my little “history lesson” about Canada, you’d actually see that I noted America as being far more idealistic than Canada and as establishing their own national identity in a more profound way.

    Canada’s population is situated where it is largely because of climate, as it’s too fucking cold to move much further North for most people.

    Andy, one American dollar is worth 1.01 Canadian dollars right now. My wife gets paid in American funds (actually so do I!), so we keep an eye on the exchange rates almost daily. That’s using the nominal rate, of course.

    Interestingly, your “pacific northwest” is our pacific southwest or, as we call it in BC, “the Lower Mainland.”

    And those fucking showers are dope! No pasties here!

  • Jordan Richardson

    And Jet, I’m not so sure you (America) would be all that protective of us if we suddenly, oh I don’t know, RAN OUT OF OIL!

    Plus, you Americans tend to not like our softer stance on drugs. And there was the whole softwood lumber dispute. And the dispute over the Northwest Passage. And Maher Arar.

    I always like to defer to good ol’ Trudeau, who said that relations with the US are like “sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered is the beast, if I can call it that, one is affected by every twitch and grunt.” That was from a speech he gave at a National Press Club dinner in Washington in 1969. Ah, good ol’ Trudeau…

    Then there was War Plan Red, which included an American invasion of Canada (Crimson) when America prepared for war with Britain. Of course, America’s prepared for war with everyone, so that shouldn’t be too surprising. 🙂

  • Well, considering that we import more oil from Canada than anywhere else, maybe it time we rethought this whole “we hate OPEC” thing.

    You as any American and they’ll tell you that we’d condisere an attack on Canada an attack on the U.S. In case you didn’t know Canada is an equal partner with us in NORAD.

  • Jordan Richardson

    You as any American and they’ll tell you that we’d condisere an attack on Canada an attack on the U.S.

    Eh, not so sure about this whole “I’d lay down my life for a Canadian” thing being pervasive. It may be a majority concept, for sure, but I doubt you can ask any American and get the same optimistic answer. I’m certainly not doubting that when I speak tongue-in-cheek in my previous posts about drugs, Maher Arar, etc. My point was merely to suggest that things aren’t as sunny as you seem to assume and there have been some constant disputes.

    It’s interesting. My father-in-law is still getting over the fact that his daughter “married a Canadian,” despite the fact that their “America” is literally minutes away from our home. It’s amazing how much emotion and force that little invisible line can conjure among some people.

    In case you didn’t know Canada is an equal partner with us in NORAD.

    Among many other things, yes. Well aware of that, thanks. You supply the defence aspect, we’re in charge of NORAD when it tracks Santa on Christmas Eve. It’s a great deal.

  • I have a different perspective-My father was in the airforce and Canadian airspace and soil is just as important as U.S. soil, and probably always will be.

    In case you haven’t noticed we trust Canada enough to have the longest unguarded border with you of any two countries in the world.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Jet, the point I’m making is simple: There are exceptions to the philosophy that Americans would defend Canadian soil as rigorously as they would their own soil. It may be true for the MAJORITY, as I’ve said, but it is certainly not a pervasive element. Nothing is, for that matter. Nobody all agrees on one thing.

    Now if you want to continue to match anecdote for anecdote to fight another unknown opponent, you’re going to have to find another dance partner. This Canuck is going to watch The Love Guru for some idiotic reason.

  • Jordan Richardson

    And Jet, there are Minutemen on the Canadian border. Figure that out.

  • Am I the only one who can’t get onto the BC forum page?

  • Jet

    i HATE THIS, It looks like I’ll be voting against someone (McCain) instead of for someone (Obama)… if I vote at all.

    Every time I think I can support him, he changes his mind.

    Now he’s for offshore drilling, which he used to be against.

    I still say we’d have been better off with Hillary.

    damn it

  • Clavos

    Not to worry, Jet. He’s not really “changing his mind,” he’s just trying to suck in us right-of-center independents.

    It’s just politics, and not a real “change you can believe in;” if he’s elected, he’ll go back to being a lefty, and he’ll do what you (not I) want him to do.

  • Jet

    Why am I not reassured by that Clavos?

  • Jet

    Pablo, Pablo, Pablo-you’re so silly

  • Pablo


  • Jet

    Read the damned article Franco… sheesh!!!!

  • Jet

    I saw this coming…

    A national poll released Wednesday by Reuters/Zogby showed McCain beating Obama 46 to 41 percent, an advantage that also shows that voters now see McCain as stronger on economic issues. The latest poll erased the strong seven-point advantage held by the Democrat just last month. Other polls had the race statistically tied.

    Moreover, some recent polls indicate that some red states that Democrats had hoped they could flip to blue – like Indiana and Virginia – are tacking back slightly to McCain.

    The latest polls show that even with gas prices rising precipitously under a Republican administration, the candidates are unusually close on whom Americans trust to deal with the issue.

  • Jet

    I WROTE THIS ARTICLE… I was wrong. I was so goddamned anxious to cast doubt on Obama, after he defeated Hillary in the primaries (whom I supported), that I rushed to write this piece before I had time to think about it.

    I’m man enough to admit when I was wrong.

    …and I was.

    Jet Gardner
    Columbus Ohio

  • Jet, I missed this, was in CA. Good for you to admit it. I was in California when you wrote this. I guess my foresight is why people like Arch [personal attack deleted] and Dave (he’s got problems) are both attacking Heloise.

    If Arch does not take down his comments and apologize I just might have to leave this site. It’s that bad. I don’t need it.


  • Jet

    thanks Heloise, I hope the writers/editor(s) learn from my mistake and follow the example. As for Archness, he’s been banned from here so many times, that I don’t see him learning any kind of lesson.

    He’s like an old sock left on the fireplace mantle; after a while you’re so used to seeing (hearing) it that you don’t notice it anymore until a neighbor comes over and asks if you’re early for Santa Clause.


  • I was in California when you wrote this

    …so forgive me if it goes astray?

  • Jet

    Prince… is that you?

  • I’ve been so many people today, including Dracula, that I’m not sure any more.

    As far as I know, Jet, Archie has never actually been banned from the site. He is frequently edited and/or told to put a sock in it, but I think you’re getting him mixed up with He Who Shall Not Be Named.

  • No, I meant to edit out one of those. Geez, is everybody here anal retentive? He has over 200 comments and was expressing his opinion. It was obviously popular article. I missed THIS article because I was in California at the time.

    Not to imply it went astray because I was not here to monitor it. Is that what you are trying to say or think I was trying to say? People get over it. These are just comments. I am tired, busy, just wrote an interview and like to write quick notes. WTF? Is it just me? Is it cause I’m black you people call me on every comment? I used to never comment. Maybe I will go back to that.

    Good night!


  • Jet

    You’re probably right, they’re so interchangeable. Is it my copy of IE8.1 beta, or are the fresh comments just posted here, have somehow wound up near the bottom of the fresh comments page???

  • Jet

    Heloise, he was making a joke based on the lyrics of a Prince song. I know the feeling, I have to label my jokes so people know when to laugh too…

    For you just joining this, go back to comment#277

  • Jordan Richardson

    Heloise, calm down. And do it because you’re black.

  • Jet

    George Wallace; is that you?

  • Jordan Richardson

    The segregation guy or the black comedian?

  • Oh, you people are too smart for me. I am a Prince aficionado, love Prince. Didn’t catch that one. You scared me. Arch’s attack shook me up.

    Another one of my kitties bit the dust, literally. I found him dead after he committed kitticide by jumping off the garage. I told that idiot to stay off the roof and out the trees but he wouldn’t listen. His name was Reba.

    Anyway, But thank you Dr. D for editing out his comments.

    I almost lost my JFK cool. Can’t have that can we, Hackie?


  • Jet

    The racist governor who ran for president in the 60s…

  • Jet

    I was dreamin’ when I wrote this, forgive me if it goes astray… Hey, I could use that as an excuse for this article!

  • @ #284: No, Jet, it’s happened to me a few times too, and I’m using Safari on my Mac. Go figure…!

  • Heloise, I’m sorry to hear about Reba (Reba??!??!) I have two cats myself. They stay indoors, but I’d hate it if anything happened to them.

  • Jet

    Oh… well… that explains a lot… I think?

  • Jet

    I’m trying to figure out what Reba is short for that would be good for a male cat. The options boggle the mind…

  • LOL. My daughter asked me the same thing. She said, I thought it was a female, when I said “He was dead.” I told her I liked the name “Reba” my other cat has a straight-up dog’s name. Go figure, Heloise is just funny like that. His name was supposed to be “Brutus.” I thought Reba was close enough.

    Does that explain it?


  • Jet

    Well now I’m worried that I actually understood that Heloise…

  • Jet, LOL. Nobody gets me. Or is it that nobody understands me. That’s what I get for writing poetry for years. You know in poetry you try to be misunderstood, mysterious, sphinx-like, and shit. Bottom line: it comes natural.


  • Jet

    I’m taking a moment (no joke) to express my sorrow to Obama on the death of his grandmother, who died within hours of seeing her grandson elected President.

  • Jet

    Do your remember a weekly newspaper article entitled “Handy Hints from Heloise?”

  • That was a long time ago. I read them. But I named myself after the French philosopher “Heloise” of Heloise and Abelard fame circa 13th century France. But guess what if you google Heloise you get hints from Heloise first because Ta Da, she has gone online.

    Then there is Heloise and the Savoir Faire, just heard of them. But there is only one “Heloise” of France, that’s me.


  • Jet

    I’m suprised they didn’t nickname you “Hally” …that’s from “The Electric Horseman”

  • Jet

    I’d like to thank whomever fixed the length of time it takes to post a comment.

  • Jet

    I have no intentions of gloating tomorrow night; I’ll just be glad that this place will be more civil and normal…

  • Jet

    For those who missed it last night…

    I WROTE THIS ARTICLE… I was wrong. I was so goddamned anxious to cast doubt on Obama, after he defeated Hillary in the primaries (whom I supported), that I rushed to write this piece before I had time to think about it.

    I’m man enough to admit when I was wrong.

    …and I was.

    Jet Gardner
    Columbus Ohio

  • Jet, re your #291, I’ve already used a variation of that line – and will sue you for breach of copyright if you use it too! LOL!!

  • Jet

    Hey, don’t blame me, Doc started it way back in #280

  • bliffle

    Heloise says:

    “If Arch does not take down his comments and apologize I just might have to leave this site. It’s that bad. I don’t need it.”

    You don’t have to do that, all you have to do is give Archie a mental rating and then as you scan comments throw his away. That’s what I do.

    I also do it for some others. Anyone whose info content is so low that they don’t count.

  • bliffle

    Heloise says:

    “…I named myself after the French philosopher “Heloise” of Heloise and Abelard fame…”

    I’m glad I’m not YOUR boyfriend.

  • Cindy D

    RE # 299,


    I didn’t know that. That is heartbreaking.

  • Jet

    Cindy, according to the news reports, she absentee voted for him before she died.