Today on Blogcritics
Home » Culture and Society » Obama and the Voters

Obama and the Voters

Please Share...Tweet about this on Twitter0Share on Facebook0Share on Google+0Share on LinkedIn0Pin on Pinterest0Share on TumblrShare on StumbleUpon0Share on Reddit0Email this to someone

President Barack Hussein Obama rode into the White House on what some have termed a “tidal wave” of popularity. His electoral numbers, while not a landslide, were certainly impressive: he garnered 53% of the popular vote, and 365 electoral college votes (270 were needed to win).

Since then, he has surfed that popularity wave, sometimes daringly hanging ten on the front of his rhetorical surfboard, as he has moved rapidly to effect the radical transformation of the political and social landscape of the nation, molding it; sometimes forcibly, to conform to his vision of the United States of America of the future.

For the most part, he has been decisive, and few would argue that his vision and proposals are and have been bold, perhaps excessively so in some instances. All newly elected Presidents have enjoyed what the press long ago dubbed a honeymoon period at the beginning of their tenure in the Oval Office. Obama, ever the shrewd political product of the Chicago political machine, has wasted no time ramrodding as much of his agenda as he can into fruition before the clock on his own honeymoon strikes midnight and his political carriage inevitably turns into a pumpkin.

Indeed, according to several recent polls the eleventh hour, if not the bewitching stroke of midnight, seems to be approaching as the public begins to stir and and look around. Voters have recently begun to focus their attention on such mundane aspects of Obama's visionary plans as the shocking rise in the projected deficits and the enormity of how much taxpayer money has already been committed to bail out financial institutions which are using taxpayer money to finance their executives' personal use of corporate jets and lavish meetings at luxury retreats, not to mention supposedly rescued auto companies entering bankruptcy anyway, and laying off tens of thousands of workers. Business, as the saying goes, as usual.

But the smoke is beginning to clear and the mirrors are starting to crack. The public is beginning to realize they must, at their own peril, pay attention to the man behind the curtain. According to a recent Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll:

Nearly seven in 10 survey respondents said they had concerns about federal interventions into the economy, including Mr. Obama's decision to take an ownership stake in General Motors Corp., limits on executive compensation and the prospect of more government involvement in health care. The negative feeling toward the GM rescue was reflected elsewhere in the survey as well. A solid majority — 58% — said that the president and Congress should focus on keeping the budget deficit down, even if takes longer for the economy to recover.

Obama's proposed plan to solve the so-called health care crisis also has the public scratching their heads and wondering from whence the money for the staggering trillion-plus cost will come. A New York Times/CBS News poll found only 44% of respondents approve of his healthcare initiative.

Pew Research notes that while Obama's personal popularity remains high, he is losing the confidence of the voters in his handling of the overall economy. According to Pew, his ratings on the economy have slipped from 60% in April to 52% in June.

As the revolution in Iran unfolds on the city streets of that troubled hot spot, Obama faces another crisis as well. White House statements urging caution in dealing with the Iranian situation, have been decisively repudiated by Congress, which voted 405-1 to condemn the Ahmadinejad regime's crackdown on protesters.

As Obama moves to remake America into his own private vision of a 21st century Utopia, he would do well to remember the voters. If he continues to displease them, his summer of Hope and Change may well turn into his Winter of Discontent.

Powered by

About Clavos

Raised in Mexico by American parents, Clavos is proudly bi-cultural, and considers both Spanish and English as his native languages. A lifelong boating enthusiast, Clavos lives aboard his ancient trawler, Second Act, in Coconut Grove, Florida and enjoys cruising the Bahamas and Florida Keys from that base. When not dealing with the never-ending maintenance issues inherent in ancient trawlers, Clavos sells yachts to finance his boat habit, but his real love (after boating, of course) is writing and editing; a craft he has practiced at Blogcritics since 2006.
  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    What will the condemnation do if it can’t be backed by action? Another empty gesture only revealing our impotence?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    As Lincoln said, you can fool some of the public all of the time and all of the public some of the time, but you can’t fool all of the public all of the time.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Clav, I suspect that you may have a better response to Roger’s comment, but here’s mine:

    To the extent that the United States is to retain (or perhaps to regain) any semblance of moral authority, it is high time for her President at least to express United States solidarity with those in Iran who are fighting and dying for some of the freedoms still widely enjoyed in the United States. To the extent that this requires some harsh words for the rulers of Iran, so be it. To the extent that this may diminish the already nil chances of persuading those rules to abandon their ambitions for nuclear weapons or to recognize Israel as a (Jewish) state, so be it. He has voted “present” often enough. Now, it is time for him to vote “yea” or “nay.”

    Dan(Miller)

  • Clavos

    Dan(Miller),

    As is so often the case, you’ve said it best.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “The president is being roundly criticized for insufficient, rhetorical support for what’s going on over there. It seems to me foolish criticism. The people on the streets know full well what the American attitude toward the regime is. And they don’t need that reinforced.”
    – George Will

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    George Will is usually right. The individual support shown to the Iranian people by Americans is of far more value than anything Obama can reasonably do in this situation.

    Dave

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Neda’s death

    “A young woman who was standing aside with her father watching the protests was shot by a basij member hiding on the rooftop of a civilian house. He had clear shot at the girl and could not miss her. However, he aimed straight her heart. I am a doctor, so I rushed to try to save her. But the impact of the gunshot was so fierce that the bullet had blasted inside the victim’s chest, and she died in less than 2 minutes.

    The protests were going on about 1 kilometers away in the main street and some of the protesting crowd were running from tear gass used among them, towards Salehi St.

    The film is shot by my friend who was standing beside me. Please let the world know.”

    Note: The graphic photo and video are placed low on the page.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    If the President of the United States doesn’t feel a need, personally, to express the outrage felt in the United States toward the happenings in Iran, I guess he should just go get another ice cream cone. Every little bit of stimulus helps.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://heloise8.wordpress.com/ Heloise

    Your metaphors are improving I see.

    You skip unemployment numbers and skim the economy. Implicit of course is that they are knotted together. But I think that is the biggest bone of contention if there is any, with voters. They want jobs…now. The rest is laniappe (sp).

    On Iran, I advised Obama to do nothing when in doubt. I don’t know whose advice he is following but it sounds like the Buddha’s to me.

    Can’t we just let other countries have the semblance of self-direction? Of turning the sails where they see fit? Mousavi has already said he is prepared to be a martyr. Should Obama endorse that too?

    Leave them alone and they will come home. Come home to true democracy? I don’t think so. Democracy is for the highly evolved…even we have not mastered it.

    As for health care: I’ve started writing about that too. I call it shaken doctor syndrome and medical fault lines because the “whys” of its opposition are underground.

    We can keep up the pretense that this is the best health care system in the world, but for whom? I worked in it for 10 long years and it’s all about the doctors and growing bigger medical centers. I live in a hospital district and Childrens, Baylor and Harris are building like there is no tomorrow. Who or what’s going to pay for that? Are they expecting a money bloom?

    A well-run charity hospital in every large community actually would do nicely. But many in CA were closed when the illegals over-used them. Like I said, the true reasons behind the health care debacle are underground.

    Heloise

  • Clavos

    @ 5 and 6:

    Far be it from me to argue with the wisdom of George Will, whom I greatly admire, and his point as quoted by El Bicho is cogent, as far as it goes.

    However, vis-a-vis the thesis of the article: Obama’s slippage in the polls, it would behoove him, in terms of his standing with Americans to come out with a statement more congruent with that of Congress.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Here is some more nonsense on Iran, which apparently is not of much concern to Our President. He should just continue to play it safe and hope for the best, whatever he may think that is.

    In the meantime, there are lots of more important things.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Clavos

    More on the dwindling public support for his health plan from Politico:

    Public anxiety about red ink — muted during this winter’s debate over an economic stimulus package — has come roaring back, with a Gallup Poll showing deficits and spending as the only issues where more people disapprove of Obama’s performance than approve of it.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    George Will could suck my d–k. (you know, theoretically…) Still I’ll go along with that and with El B, and with Dave and with Heloise (‘cept I take exception to that bit about being ready for democracy)

    Hands Off The People Of Iran

    “Hands Off The People Of Iran fights against the threat of any imperialist intervention, war or sanctions against Iran. It looks to build active, practical solidarity with grass-roots radical secular forces in Iran, the militant women’s, workers and students movements. We want regime change, both in Iran and in the imperialist countries. But we know that change must come from below – from the struggles of the working class and social movements – if it is to lead to genuine liberation.”

    News from the struggles in Iran

    The above are two sites I highly recommend.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You know, Dan, #3 is really pathetic. Not the form of words, of course – who can disagree with that and the idea of moral leadership, but the timing.

    It’s the height of irony that conservatives such as yourself talk of moral authority and its proper use only in situations when it’s in no position of being exercised. Where where you and all your cohorts when US invaded Iraq for much less legitimate reasons than our interference with Iran would now warrant? And don’t tell me now that Saddam Hussein’s inhumanity was the main reason for our so doing, or that he trampled on human rights and other such nonsense. These may have used as pretexts and after the fact rationalizations for our actions and continuous presence, but surely not the main reasons – in spite of Bush & Co high claims of spreading freedom and democracy throughout the world and nation-building.

    It’s really amazing how you fail to see how your insistence on human rights – precisely in situations when there’s very little that we can do about – sound hollow and shallow, indeed, fucking buffoonish.

    We created Iran the enemy – Iran which had its own ambitions of being a major player in the Middle East, by building up Iraq. Iran the enemy is, in no small part, the result of our own creation. Indeed, even the Iranian Revolution was in a sense prompted by Shah’s brutal regime, marked also by violations of human rights – but in that case against the Islamists. And we supported that regime wholeheartedly. So missed in all this is how the conservatives tend to view morals and insist on morality in human actions only through the prism of what they deem as best in America’s national interests.

    It’s for this very reason that I am very highly suspect of this present outrage on your part, and those who share your view – precisely because we’re been rendered impotent to act by virtue of failed policies in the past. And all I see in that is just another way to criticize and undermine the present administration – which makes it, once more, just another instance of and exercise in extreme partisanship.

    I’m sorry, but for the reasons stated, I can’t take this outrage and complaint seriously.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    And we supported that regime wholeheartedly. (a little adjustment)

    The 1953 Iranian coup d’état deposed the democratically-elected government of Iranian Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq.

    The UK and the US wanted Iran’s oil profits. So, they subjected the people of Iran to an U.S. allied dictator. The spreaders of ‘democracy’ ride again. Yay for the ‘good guys’!

    (1979–How could those Iranians be so hateful to take American hostages?1)they hate ‘our’ freedom? 2)religious fundamentalist thinking?))

    Fast Forward to 2025: (Why do those Afghans and Iraqis hate the U.S so much?–1)they hate ‘our’ freedom? 2)religious fundamentalist thinking?)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    LIFE reports that the Iranian photographer who took these pictures, Eyewitness from Tehran’s Streets is missing.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #15 Well taken. Add that to the list of US hypocrisies.

  • Bliffle

    Who, here at BC, really knows anything about the Iranian contenders?

    Is Mousavi really the ‘Human Rights’ candidate that some imagine? Or is he just someone else that we hope turns out better than the current guy?

    I heard a disturbing report from an Iranian in the USA who said that Mousavi is no saviour. That he has previously been responsible for executions.

    How can anyone, here on BC, know whether the election was rigged?

    How can anyone, here on BC, know whether the demonstrations are sincere or rigged?

    How can we know accurately what the desires of the people of Iran are?

    SHouldn’t we have overwhelming evidence of the illegitimacy of the Iran government before we shoot our mouths off, let alone start making threats?

    Have we learned nothing from the Iraq fiasco?

  • http://www.whalertly.com/wordpress Robert M. Barga

    @18

    that, my friend, is the whole point of my articles

  • Clavos

    They’re killing each other off. Who cares?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Roger, you say It’s the height of irony that conservatives such as yourself talk of moral authority and its proper use only in situations when it’s in no position of being exercised.

    There is an opportunity to exercise moral authority. President Obama is thought to have a way with words. Even if he only uses words, that would be useful. Up to now, he has essentially left the folks in Iran who seem to want some small smattering of human rights to twist slowly in the wind. He can do better than that.

    As to having given up the right, as a conservative, to talk about moral authority, I think you are mistaken. However,I don’t see any useful purpose likely to be served by further belaboring the point.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Dan,

    Words aren’t enough in situations like that. And so is the case with “moral authority” as though it would carry any weight. Moral authority has to be earned. And by its many past actions and policies, we’ve squandered it.

    I don’t disagree with you in that what we’re seeing in Iran is a most deplorable situation, only that there isn’t really all that much that we can do about it. And shooting out mouths off without there being any backup plane to do something about it is an exercise in futility, only further exposing our impotence and weakness.

  • STM

    Now is the winter of our discount tents

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Roger,

    My recollections may be clouded by time (or something else) but I seem to recall that “mere words” were used by the U.S. Government just before East Germany “tore down that wall.” Similarly, I seem to recall that “mere words” were used by the U.S. Government just before the Communist Polish Government fell. If I recall incorrectly, perhaps you will be kind enough to correct me.

    If “mere words” are useless in the present context, how are such trivial gestures going to help to persuade Iran not to continue to develop a nuclear arsenal, not to nuke Israel, and generally to be nice? Or do we no longer care about that sort of thing?

    This is probably the first opportunity the United States has had in many years to show her spunk in defending freedom and human rights, and the first time when large numbers of U.S. citizens seem to favor that sort of thing. “Mere words” may not be enough; then again, they may help the already large masses of Iranians to think that even the much disparaged United States look at their situation with sadness.

    Here, for such interest if any as it may hold, is a letter which may (or may not) have been written or approved by Mr. Mousavi.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Jordan Richardson

    Is Mousavi really the ‘Human Rights’ candidate that some imagine? Or is he just someone else that we hope turns out better than the current guy?

    No way. He’s no Human Rights candidate. Anyone who says that is out to lunch. He’s only slightly better than the current guy on foreign policy, but even that can be sketchy because it really doesn’t matter what he believes. It’s all about the Supreme Leader, baby.

  • pablo

    It never ceases to amaze me how not only naive but politically uninformed most of the commenters and writers are on this site.

    I am not fan of either Islam in any of its forms, nor of sharia law in particular. That being said, it is obvious to even the most elementary political observer of the shenanigans going on in Iran have been instigated by the CIA. I will provide proof should I receive (as I expect) typical responses from the usual ignoramuses.

    Not even a scintilla on this site of US covert involvement in a foreign election. OH now we would never do that! hehehehe

    Politically astute folks? I think not

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Here is some info about Moussavi:

    Facts on Mir-Hossein Moussavi

    Moussavi is no savior. Jordan summed it up right, imo.

    How can we know accurately what the desires of the people of Iran are?

    They appear to want what most people want–human rights and an end to oppression–to not be killed and jailed for speaking out, among other things.

    I think they are misguided thinking it will come from Moussavi. Still, they’ll do what they have to and I think the US govt should stay out of it.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Cindy,

    I don’t think I have any illusions about Moussavi. He has shown himself in the past to be a jerk; for all I know to the contrary, he may well still be a jerk.

    If the Iranians are delusional, and think that he would bring some species of democracy, so much the better; they may actually force him to do just that. The important thing to me is that they seem to be rebelling against the whole Iranian theocratic power structure, in which there already appears to be quite a lot of dissension.

    I certainly don’t think we should send in troops, tanks, etc. I do think we should offer those who are fighting against the Iranian theocracy such moral support as we can.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Irene Wagner

    Maybe the Green Twitter Phenomenon will dampen enthusiasm for this kind of “support.”

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Dan(Miller),

    If the Iranians are delusional, and think that he would bring some species of democracy, so much the better; they may actually force him to do just that.

    I can’t say I’d disagree with this.

    The important thing to me is that they seem to be rebelling against the whole Iranian theocratic power structure, in which there already appears to be quite a lot of dissension.

    I am very much in agreement with this.

    Despite our basic agreement, I would not like to see a potential escalation. He has already said a few words–as I quoted in the other thread.

    Now that I read Irene’s article (hinted at also by Pablo) escalation is an even bigger concern.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Addendum: I was reading earlier that even some clerics are denouncing the dictatorial govt power.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Some links within Irene’s dismaying article:

    US funds terror groups to sow chaos in Iran (UK Telegraph, 2007)

    “America is secretly funding militant ethnic separatist groups in Iran in an attempt to pile pressure on the Islamic regime to give up its nuclear programme.”

    Preparing the Battlefield

    The Bush Administration steps up its secret moves against Iran.

    “‘The Finding was focussed* on undermining Iran’s nuclear ambitions and trying to undermine the government through regime change,’ a person familiar with its contents said, and involved ‘working with opposition groups and passing money.'”

    Irene,

    Thanks for that article. I saw some $400 million figure go by somewhere today, but I lost what it was about when my browser crashed.

    I follow that site Antiwar.com on twitter. I hadn’t seen them post it. I really like that site.

    * Clav–Look at that, that is the New Yorker!

  • Irene Wagner

    Cindy, yes, I wasn’t sure I could trust claims that Voice of America Persia had interviewed Abdolmalek Rigi, leader of Jundullah (the organization responsible for terrorist attacks against the citizens of Iran) until I found it reported on Voice Of America’s own website:

    Washington, DC – June 23, 2008 . . . Major stories this week included…President Bush welcoming Britain’s pledge to tighten sanctions against Iran;… the US Congress approving $162 billion in new funding for US operations in Iraq and Afghanistan;…and interviews with Abdolmalek Rigi, the leader of Jundollah; with former British Foreign Secretary David Owen; with AEI scholar Michael Ledeen on US-Iran relations;

  • Irene Wagner

    I wonder what VOA Persia is up to lately?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Unbelievable. (not really)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Abdolmalek Rigi

    “Many believe Jundallan is linked to Al-Qaeda[3]. Jundallah claims to be fighting for the rights of Sunni muslims in Iran. Jundallah is a militant group that according to evidence and some international sources receives funding from the US Government and Baluchi Iranians abroad.[4][5]”

  • pablo

    I think what I find so repugnant about all the american nosy do-gooders, who want to stick their noses in everyone else’s business throughout the world, is that they ought to clean their own house first and foremost. If you are so upset about man’s inhumanity for man perhaps you do gooders out there might want to spend your time helping all those poor souls that are locked up in amerika’s prison system for victimless crimes, or the homeless that have been kicked out of their house, or the kids that have no protection from predators, the list is actually endless. But nooooooooooo, you would rather point your finger at a rigged election. If so put your efforts into insuring that elections in amerika are fair and your ballots actually count (they dont)

    Arrogant, uninformed, bigoted, nosy, and just plain stupid, is how I find the vast majority of you so called do gooders out there. One of the many reasons that I have chosen not to live in the land of the free (cough). Don’t forget to put on your rfid bracelets kids, after all it is for das homeland. You want freedom? Try being free here and see what that gets ya. smirk

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy
  • pablo

    Cindy,

    Just curious, do you think the voting is fair in Russia, Iraq, Venezuala, the USA, Mexico,etc etc?

    I sure as hell dont. In fact I think that most voting was invented just to give people the illusion that their two cents is worth two cents.

    Vote fraud in Iran? It is surely a given, what else is new?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Pablo,

    In fact I think that most voting was invented just to give people the illusion that their two cents is worth two cents.

    Yup. Me too.

    My reason for posting that info is because confirming information allows one to build a more accurate picture of events based on the best evidence available.

    Some people might have doubts, for example, about whether Mousavi manipulated the event. It’s just info for whoever wants it.

  • pablo

    cindy,

    glad we are in agreement, now if we can just agree on bohemian grove, bilderberg group and the cfr! hehehehehe

  • Cannonshop

    Words will be more powerful (and more effective) than Bullets-at least, from OUR side. The fact is, some American administrations did quite a few things that were, are, and should be judged as evil in the past. This is an Iranian struggle, whether it results in a nation we can, eventually, do business with in good faith or not, by intervening beyond words, we place that positive outcome in far greater doubt, than if we let the Iranians see Iranians killing Iranians for the sake of men whose policies have failed…Iranians.

    This is NOT like Vietnam, the side we (the U.S.) opposes is NOT being funded by our enemies or supplied with arms by them. IF we DO get involved, then that (among other negative outcomes) WILL happen.

    Not because, necessarily, our enemies are gentlemen, but because if we get involved physically, it gives them an opportunity to do us (as a nation) harm on multiple levels while they keep their individual hands clean.

    If Iran degenerates into civil war, that helps American interests in the region, if Iran’s inner conflict results in a more modern state that is disconnected from the irrationality of the Theocrats, that is also good for American interests in the long term. If Iran’s tyrants retain power?

    Well…nothing really changed then, but they lose some credibility with their European supporters.

    Which is good for our side.

    None of these is good for long-term U.S. interests if U.S. troops or U.S. arms are brought into the equation.

  • Arch Conservative

    Despite having the mainstream media on his payroll, Barry’s approval numbers are dropping rapidly.

    It’s time for the moonbats to start rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Even I didn’t think it would come so soon.

    When it’s all said and done Barry will have made Jimmy Carter look like George Washington.

    Hold on tight folks, it’s going to be a very bumpy ride over the next three years.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Dan #24,

    The very title of the article, “Obama and the Voters,” tells the whole story. The events in Iran are not the main focus, only a part of the laundry list dumping on Obama. Well, I’m sorry but that topic is of no interest to me. I couldn’t care less how Obama and the administration stand in the polls. But I do take it to be significant as defining the context within which the discussion of the Iran situation takes place. And it is that, more than anything else, that I find suspect.

    Thank you for a valiant effort, bringing to mind examples when “mere words” made a difference and counted. Well, just a time is not now. America has lost its moral credibility, and it’s going to take considerable time to rebuild it. Words, just as actions, must be credible in order to make a difference. If they’re not, we’re just pissing in the wind.

    Also the argument that we must speak now, so that we could also speak to Iran’s nuclear program, and effectively, doesn’t wash either. We’d be just as ineffective in the first matter as we have been in the second. Compounding the weaknesses, piling one on top of the other, doesn’t make for greater strength; it only demonstrates a greater weakness.

    So yes, we are in disagreement here – not as to what we ought to do were we in a position to do it, but mainly as regards the effectiveness and the utility. Again, an empty gesture is something that we certainly do not need – not unless it can translate into a positive result. And thus far, you have not been able to suggest even one positive development that might result from our speaking out and expressing what would be construed by many as “feigned outrage.”

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Correction: “such a time is not now”

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    In the final analysis, a regime change deflecting away from an Iranian militant nuclear policy is in everybody’s best interest in terms of keeping the game running that is running now (my bow to Pablo).

    This is said without reference to any morality on the part of the United States, but because it eliminates the need for an Israeli nuclear attack on Tehran and other command and control centers in Iran. One does not embrace mass murder as a weapon of defense without a damned good reason, and if it can be avoided, it should be.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Having said this, we should be aware that any regime that runs Iran will want nukes. So, we might as well get used to the idea eventually. What matters is not the possession of nuclear weapons (India has them, we have them) but rather the intent of the rulers with respect to their use.

    An Iran that has nukes is a force to be reckoned with. But Iran nned not be the “Islamic Republic”. If Moussavi throws in his lot to get rid of the mullahs running the country, who ultimately dictate this nuclear militancy, then he may be better then them, even though he was part of the crowd who brought them in originally.

    If he isn’t (with respect to “eliminating israel from the map”), there is always the possibility of us nuking Tehran.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #46,

    Correct, and that’s the pragmatic view. But Miller was arguing from the position of US moral strength, I can’t let him get away with it. It’s been squandered.

  • Irene Wagner

    Roger Nowosielski, you gave your “correct” to this? #46: “…a regime change deflecting away from an Iranian militant nuclear policy is in everybody’s best interest in terms of keeping the game running that is running now…”

    (“The game running now” is described in #26 – #36: Funding and propaganda support, provided through US executive order, to terrorist organizations in Iran with the aim of stirring up regime-toppling civil unrest.)

    So which is correct, Roger Nowosielski, the pragmatic view or the moral view? Do you trust a power that has “squandered” its moral strength to engineer regime changes for other countries?

    Ruvy of Samaria has been busy advocating, in another thread, gross human rights violations (not just by Israel but by thugs around the world) with “justice being served.” His remarks today are consistent with the remarks he’s made elsewhere.

    I’m interested in hearing what YOU have to say, Roger Nowosielski.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    These are different universes of discourse, Irene, and my first concern was to keep them apart. I’ve already expressed my view as to the moral dimension: US is in no position (in light of its past policies and actions) to exert a viable moral influence for a long time – not at least until we straighten our own act.

    Now, as to pragmatics. Not to agree of course with Ruvy’s idea of “the final solution” – with which I don’t – I was merely conceding that having a party in power in Iran that would be less trigger-happy would be a desirable outcome. But I wasn’t addressing, mind you, the means of accomplishing that end.

    So to put it more crudely, perhaps, I may have been advocating a course of action on pragmatic grounds; but I was definitely opposing the idea of whitewashing the action by endowing it with honorable (read: moral) motives.

    Do you see a contradiction?

  • Irene Wagner

    Yes, Roger Nowosielski, I do see a contradiction between your 1) advocating a course of action on pragmatic grounds and 2)opposing the whitewashing of ANYTHING.

  • Irene Wagner

    Hasn’t the position of YOUR moral strength been “squandered” if you advocate, “to put it crudely,” an immoral course of action?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    First off, I am not advocating anything, only conceding the point that some people might do so for the stated reasons.

    Trying to avoid a worldwide nuclear conflagration is one possible reason why some people might want to act rather than not to act (and I can understand the reason without necessarily approving it). But this is not to say that such a reason would necessarily be a moral one – as some would like to argue.

  • Clavos

    “Depends on what your definition of ‘is’ is.”

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    My objection, first and foremost, was to the hypocrisy on the part of those who try to couch their real motives in a favorable light. The pragmatic consideration brought up by Ruvy was a side point.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Roger, I must object in the strongest possible terms to you associating the word pragmatic with anything Ruvy has to say.

    He is as self serving and egocentric as the Grand Ayatollah of Iran, with whom he has more in common than with his own government…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I wasn’t considering the speaker, Chris, only the idea that the change of the guard in Iran that would be less trigger-happy would be a desirable outcome.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Ruvy of Samaria has been busy advocating, in another thread, gross human rights violations (not just by Israel but by thugs around the world) with “justice being served.” His remarks today are consistent with the remarks he’s made elsewhere.

    Oh well, Irene, I see you misread what I wrote. I wrote my article advocating the nuking of Tehran before these elections took place. I certainly didn’t know that this Moussavi dude would put himself against the mullahs he helped install in 1979.

    When pushed against a wall, you do what you have to in order to survive. These are things you learn when you live in a slum, and I grew up in the Williamsburg section of Brooklyn when it was a nasty slum.

    Sometimes, doing what you have to to survive can be damned disgusting. Murdering off several million people in a nuclear attack to make sure your opwn nation can survive is certainly damned disgusting, at least by my standards. When I wrote my article advocating the nuking of Tehran, I did not see another way out. And I said so, in so many words.

    Now, there is another way out. I don’t give a tinker’s dam about your morals personal or otherwise, or your alleged moral authority. The black ops your country has pulled here, the corruption of the Israeli government, the turning of this country into a Jewish Puerto Rico where your officials can do whatever they want and squeeze whosever nuts they want, has cost your governmernt all the respect I might have ever had for it. And I haven’t forgotten about the Chrisian missionaries who roam Israel’s streets stealing Jewish souls and deceiving them. You’ll discover over time that I forget very little.

    I’m ashamed to admit that I’m an American. When I meet someone in the street, and they ask me if I’m an American, I always tell them, “I used to be”. I have not renewed my US passport. Why? Going into any American controlled building leaves me with a certain taste of disgust in my mouth and darkens my soul. You personally may not be evil, but your government IS.

    Given what I think of what your government pulls off here, and how your leaders continually try to SCREW US IN ISRAEL over, I would not wish American intervention on Iran. Even Ahmadinejad deserves better. At least he acts out of real religious faith – more than I can say for the scum in your government.

    Ruvy in Samaria understands the “Jack Bauer” philosophy of dealing with the world. When stuck with only immoral choices, you think your way to the least immoral of the lot, and pray to G-d that you have done right. And sometimes, even mass murder is the least immoral of all the solutions.

    The Iwlamic Republic is an existential threat to me and my country. You don’t have to care about that from the wilds of Idaho. You can get all self-rigteous if you want and preach about Jesus and all that jazz.

    That’s nice.

    I live here in Samaria, and I’m not leaving, unless I actually intend to leave. A place in northern Judea might be nice, if the prices are right. But the bottom line is that I do have to care about existential threats from Iran.

    My life and that of my family is on the line.

    The Islamic Republic has to go. There are two ways out. One is to nuke the command and control centre of the country, and to nuke Qom, to strip Shi’ite Islam of any authority (a god who cannot protect his holy places is not worth worshiping).

    The other is to get rid of the actual regime by changing it. If that can be accomplished without killing millions, that’s great! If that is what is underway now, so much the better and paise be to the Merciful One who has removed the Sword of His Justice from over the innocents of Persia.

  • Irene Wagner

    If you weren’t advocating the US’ fomenting of violent civil unrest via its support of Jundullah (and there wasn’t anything in
    #48’s “correct” to indicate that you weren’t putting your seal of approval on “keeping the game running that’s running now”) then I’ve glad you’ve had the opportunity to clarify, Roger.

    Now I’d be interested in hearing what Dan (Miller) has to say about US funding of Jundullah. How would a verbal show of support for the Iranian people by President Obama (who has not made arrangements to discontinue the support authorized by former President GW Bush) be consistent?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Is there some reason that people seem to assume that Mousavi is any less in favor of a similar nuclear program?

    (Discussions that fail to try to verify information, seem to run away and suddenly it’s presumed that facts are being discussed.)

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Timing is everything sometimes and here Ruvy posts yet another comment to prove my point.

    He’s a poor immigrant living in occupied territory, yet thinks he knows enough about Israel’s nuclear arsenal to come up with fantasy battle plans.

    The reality is that Israel could not stand without Western support and Ruvy is effectively powerless to do anything to help his country, two facts that enrage him.

    All the above comment he made shows is the desperate need he has to justify his life choices and not accept the gaping hole of selfish immorality that is his actual position.

    This explains his constant blustering against the UK, the USA and everywhere else that doesn’t support his dreams of conquest and Jewish, not even Israeli, superiority.

    The real problem here, as always in the Middle East and further afield, is that religious beliefs have been allowed to get completely out of control.

    Religion has no place in the business of national management, which is what government is all about.

    The glib ease with which he suggests mass murder and destruction, with nary a thought to what would follow if such insanity ever came to pass, just reveals the reality here, that fear and rage have long since replaced reason, leaving just the empty roars of a frightened little mouse.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Of course I wasn’t Irene, if only for the fact that I don’t know what’s going on.

    I was only conceding a general kind of point that there are times when Realpolitik is a legitimate enterprise (even in situations when the underlying motives aren’t particularly “moral”).

  • Irene Wagner

    A young man on BC wrote about the persecution, rape, torture and murder of Christians, not only the ones who were handing out religious literature, but also those who were sitting in their homes and churches.

    Ruvy of Samaria dismissed ALL of the young man’s objections, stating that “justice was being served.”

    Ruvy of Samaria has no more of an audience with me than does anyone who called Ruvy a “Christ-killer” has with him.

    So, back to Dan (Miller.) Would Obama’s reversal of Bush’s executive order to support Jundallah carry more weight than a verbal show of support?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I must object in the strongest possible terms to you associating the word pragmatic with anything Ruvy has to say.

    Christopher, reason and you are strangers of the most distant sort. The fact that you cannot swallow down your narrow throat that sometimes pragmatic solutions have to be brutal, and terribly so, shows the blinkers on what you allege to be your reasoning.

    Thank G-d – yes thank G-d – that someone with your narrow mindset wasn’t in command of the RAF in WWII. It was a brutal decision to firebomb German cities – but it was necessary for a whole host of reasons – one of which was the survival of some kind of liberty on the Island you inhabit. At least one of your parents would have been dead if the Germans had connquered England – gone up in smoke in a gas chamber. And you would not be here to call me crazy.

    It was murderous brutality on the part of the RAF that helped break the Germans’ spirit.

    Don’t ever forget that.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Quite right, Cindy. I’ve not seen or heard anything to suggest that Mousavi is anything more than marginally less bad than the current regime.

    The problem remains, at the core, that belief in myths, legends and fairy stories has no place in government and is being used by deeply manipulative people for their own selfish ends.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, it’s coming to a peak, Irene. But I’m glad that we’ve resolved our difference.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Except it must be said that many young Iranians are well-educated, attend universities, and the popular conception was that years ago they were very much drawn to the ideals of democracy.

    Which presents a puzzle of sorts. If the situation hasn’t changed, why would they be so supportive of the regime change?

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, maybe you should get out of the god con trick business and get into alternative comedy. Your re-writing of reality in service to your “beliefs” is richly entertaining, albeit in the most grotesque of ways.

    To point out only the most basic of your errors regarding pragmatism, you have completely ignored the likely aftermath of a unilateral nuclear strike on Iran, a scenario in which Israel’s small nuclear arsenal is spent and the enraged Muslim world and the appalled West would most probably unite to remove Israel from the map permanently.

    To try to make a comparison of what the Allies did in World War 2 to stop German aggression with what you are suggesting, is to pile yet more obscenity upon the already obscene.

    I also seem to recall you criticising that very WW2 action in another thread, so you are now adding blatant self-serving hypocrisy to your own little arsenal of the inane.

    Pragmatism is so far removed from your world view as to be irrelevant.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Indirectly, perhaps, you contributed to an important qualification: “pragmatic” can never mean anything approximating outrageous. There are natural limits.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #69 directed at Christopher Rose

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    As Obama moves to remake America into his own private vision of a 21st century Utopia, he would do well to remember the voters.

    Well this article was short and sweet!

    I do have to disagree with you on a number of points.

    *[1] Obama is not forcing this country to change. The majority of the American public are fed-up with Washington politicians, lobests, and corporate America “running things.”
    *[2] The government under Obama’s guidance does not want to take over Health care. A public option would force the Insures to get out of the wat. It is the insures that stand between the individual and their doctors!

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    There may be many reasons for the protests I am sure Roger. (Regime change may be beside the point in some cases) Here are a few ideas that I have been exposed to:

    1) They feel that their votes were tampered with. (UK academic analysis supports this.) Regardless of the election outcome or the idea of regime change, people do not want their votes changed!

    In this campaign ad for a different candidate (This is not an ad for Mousavi but for Karroubi) we can at least see what would appeal to the people of Iran: What The Opposition Stood For “The resonances are quite obvious. The translation is below.”

    2) Some believe in Mousavi. He is promoted as a reformist. Whether or not he is much different, he apparently is somewhat different at least in what he proclaims–which is summarized here from wikipedia.

    After 20 years of political silence, on March 9, 2009, Mousavi announced his intention to run in the 2009 Iranian presidential election. He stated that his main goals were: to institutionalize social justice, equality and fairness, freedom of expression, to root out corruption and to speed up Iran’s stagnant process of privatization and thus move Iran away from what he calls “an alms-based economy”.[14] Mousavi criticized the current conservative President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for his alleged economic mismanagement, asking, when Iran “was making profits from the high prices of oil, did he (Ahmadinejad) envisage a situation when the prices would fall?” On March 16, 2009, the former Iranian President Khatami withdrew from the election in support of Mir-Hossein Mousavi.

    (continued too many urls)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    (cont from #72)

    In this article, I read that Mousavi apparently procalimed that student demonstartors would not be arrested (for example). Some students did not believe this. This article also seems to suggest (like other things I’ve read) that Mousavi’s position toward Israel is similar (yet I read he acknowledges the Holocaust.)

    A bit of information for whoever needs it:

    FACTBOX: How Iran’s ruling bodies work

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Clavos,

    President Obama is the most inclusive president we have ever had…

    As Obama moves to remake America into his own private vision of a 21st century Utopia, he would do well to remember the voters.

    Well, this article is short and sweet!

    I do have to disagree with a number of points.

    *[1]President Obama does not want to force this country to change from “business as usual. The majority of American voters in this country polled are fed-up with Washington politicians-both parties, lobbyists,and corporate America “running things” without any thought to what would be in the best interest of all the people.
    *[2]President Obama does not want to stand between you and your health care providers. The insures are doing a really good job of that right now and that is why we are getting “raked over the coals”, For-Their-Profit-Health-Care.
    *[3] If GM hadn’t destroyed the EV1-Electric car, America would be at the for-front of the Automobile industry instead of having to file for bankruptcy.
    *[4] Who says this is just a honeymoon?

    I suspect they are those who were not invited to the wedding

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Please ignore comment #71. I was not finished:(

    damn computer!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Are the people with the pointy hats causing trouble again?

    That is what religion boils down to!

    I vote for the people in the streets of Iran. Not the theocratic rulers of any Regime

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Jeannie, perhaps you suffer from premature articulation? LOL

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Irene Wagner, in righteous indignation, cited this article published on 22 May, on Christians being persecuted, an article that asked “would it ever end?”

    My comment to the writer was as follows:

    In 1944, Rabbi Michael Weissmandl, of blessed memory, appealed to the highest Catholic prelate he could reach in Slovakia to save Jews from being murdered off by the Nazis, saying that the innocent blood of Jewish children should not be shed.

    This was the response of the prelate, a papal nuncio in Bratislava named Monsignor Giuseppe Borzio.

    “There is no such thing as ‘the innocent blood’ of Jewish children! All Jewish blood is guilty, and the Jews must die for that is their punishment for that sin.” [Pg 76, Cracking the Bible Code, by Jeffrey Satinover, M.D., William and Murrow, Inc. 1998]

    What comes around goes around, JJ [the author]. Now, Christians in India are murdered off because Hindus, being a proud and ancient people, have little tolerance for the lies Christians tell poor Hindus to win them away from their ancient faith.

    And since Christianity represents a real threat to the Confucian people of China, Christians are persecuted there as well.

    You need to ask yourself some uncomfortable questions, JJ. Who was it who murdered off the faiths of the Incas? Who was it murdered off the faith of the Aztecs? Who was it incited rape, robbery, massacre and murder of Jews for 19 centuries? Who walk the streets in Jerusalem today, doing their damnedest to steal Jews from their faith?

    The answer to all of these questions is “Christians”.

    To be blunt, Christians are getting their just desserts.

    They have no business lying to poor Hindus in India to steal their souls, they have no business in Jerusalem trying to steal the souls of Jews, they had no business persecuting the Native Americans of the Americas, they had no business inciting Christian peasants and burghers to rape, massacre, murder and mayhem every Easter.

    But they did. And now payment is being collected. And you, JJ, have nothing to complain about. If Christians had practiced what was written in the Book of Luke all this time, “Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,” you would have a legitimate beef. But they practiced murder in the name of love, and would not see the image of G-d in innocent children being sent off to die. [italics and bold print mine]

    Offensive as this all sounds, it is true, and I stand by all I have said here. Let me add more to the “just desserts” that Christianity is getting at long last.

    For the most part “Christian” Europe is Christian in name only, with most “Christians” going to church only once or twice yearly, if at all. “Christian” values are going along with the horse and buggy. Jew-hatred still persists, but is carried out mostly by Moslems and neo-Nazis. But it is now supplemented by something called “Israel-hatred” where Israeli Jews are deemed Nazis (a wholesale swallowing of AraB BULLSHIT), and so they (Jews, of course!) are condemned.

    Put differently, Christianity is disappearing from the continent that sent it forth to conquer and convert.

    As Irene points out in the comment thread of that article, the Shi’a faith that is supposed to dominate Iran is losing adherents as well – to Christianity! Of course what most folks forget is that before there were the Moslems in Persia, there were the Zoroastrians – who are not that different from Christians or Jews and who influnced Judaim to a degree.

    To see the degree to which Christianity is challenged in the United States, one need only read the comment threads on this magazine, and to look at the values that American society seems to push. So, like American Judaism, Christianity is largely disappearing.

    So, I stand by what I have said, and if it offends Irene – or anyone else for that matter – that’s too bad.

    Many Christians like to say that people who do evil – even in the name of Christianity – are not real Christians. It’s a convenient argument, but it is not holding up. Christianity as an institution is being judged – and is being found wanting. Its basic ideas – individual salvation with each individual unrelated to the next – are concepts that are not working because the entire institution is collapsing. In a world run by G-d, one can only reach the conclusion that this is Divinely mandated (an atheist would look for all sorts of other answers managing to miss the elephant in the room).

    This does not mean that Christians who seek G-d do not find Him. But eventually, they will forsake the structure of Christianity – a structure which distorts – for a diffeent structure which doesn’t.

    As for Obama – the Blessed of Hussein mentioned by Clavos – has his religion in America been Christianity? Or has it been the anger of black liberation theology pushed by Jeremiah Wright?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Chris,#77 ha ha ha no it’s my fault read my #74 polished up!

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, there were multiple html errors in your comment, so I was unable to determine what was right and what was wrong.

    If you would like them put back, please email me the correctly formatted comment and I will re-code the above for you.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Roger repeated a comment made by one of the Blogcritics here.

    Writers use italics, bloggers use bold

    I am a writer:)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Hello Roger:)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Hi, Jeannie. Will talk later. I need a break.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    K

  • Irene Wagner

    If only the inability to determine right from wrong could be eradicated by the readjustment of HTML tags.

    Even those who are even-handed in the disdain they have for Judaism, Christianity and Islam would refrain from saying that the Christian and Muslim victims in southern Sudan are getting “their just desserts.” At least I hope they would.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    premature articulation

    good one Big C…lol

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Hi Cindy, How was NYC?

    What does lol mean?

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Hi Jeannie,

    This should explain the background of LOL for you.

    Watch out for a flood of acronymony, folks! ROFLMAO!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Irene,
    I was watching your video but it stopped. What I saw was truly horrifying, and I am very sorry for the children and anyone who is persicuted for there beliefs.
    Religion has been the cause of most of the wars on the face of this earth; that is why it should be a personal and private right and religion should never used by the government to manipulate and control the people!

    any government

  • Horace Mungin

    Clavos, I’m wondering why you call the change Obama is trying to usher in “His private vision” afterall we had a issue orientated champagne where the canidates expressed their positions – then an election where voters voted for the positions/visions they shared. You sound like you Share some of Obama’s view so why call them private?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Hiya Jeannie :-)

    NYC was canceled. I am afraid my husband doesn’t share my enthusiasm for walking around NYC in wet PJs after lying around on the Central Park grass on our rain-soaked pillows and sheets.

    me = rain is romantic

    he = rain messes up his hair*

    *you know how men can be about their hair! (sigh)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Chris, I get it now! ROFLMAO! ha ha ha ha

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Cindy, While they have it!…ROFLMAO:0

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Horace, This is a very good point you make here.

    You sound like you Share some of Obama’s view so why call them private?

    I am often confused by Clavos! It seems to me that he does share my political point of view in some areas.

    and then he goes and denies them

  • Irene Wagner

    Jeannie, true. The United States is NOT Christian, and Christians who live here are under no obligation to defend every decision by a US president, including former president GWB’s executive order to support such fomentors of Iranian civil unrest (eg. the Jundallah terrorists), nor are they obligated to support President Obama’s hesitance in reversing said executive order. Only God can be trusted to run a theocracy, and I haven’t seen anyone that looks, acts, or sounds like God ascending to power yet–not in any government. That being said, there are religious organizations that are very vocal about human rights violations. They shouldn’t be denied a voice in government simply by virtue of their being motivated by their religious beliefs. MLK’s full title was Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King, Jr, after all.

    MCBLWTAIO — May come back later when the acrimony…oh..oh..acronymony is over. LOL.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Irene, I agree that human rights should be defended by everyone! and we shouldn’t have to wait for a religious group to come forth and speak up for human rights.

    We all have the right to exist on this earth!!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Well Clavos,I have to leave..:(

    But I will be back for some answers here…lol

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    In this article, Confronting the Holocaust Jewishly the author gave a Talmudic analysis as to why it was that seeming innocents died in the Holocaust, especially the 1.5 million children.

    It is my suspicion that this analysis may apply not only to Jews. Many people who seem innocent of nothing other than breathing and trying to live peaceful lives die horrible deaths after suffering terrible tortures of various kinds.

    I hesitate to submit this. I am not supposted to talk of the Talmud to non-Jews. Nevertheless, here are the money lines.

    And this terrible, terrible hatred was long ago, set up by the Rabbis as an unpardonable sin with a terrible, terribly clear and precise warning:

    “How severe is maHloket, division and split! The Court of Heaven does not punish until one is over the age of 20 and the court on earth from the age of 13, but in the dispute of KoraH, children of one day were burned and swallowed up by the earth…” (Tanchuma, KoraH 3) And the Rabbis in Shabbat (33b): “When there are righteous in the generation, the righteous are caught for the sins of the generation. When there are no righteous, then little children are caught for the sins of the generation (this is the explanation for the million and a half Jewish children murdered by the Nazis in the death camps). Let each of us think long and carefully about this. And let us search our souls.

    Could it be that the sins of the Christians compounded are so great that there are not enough righteous Christians to suffer for them – and that even innocent babes must suffer?

  • zingzing

    “Could it be that the sins of the Christians compounded are so great that there are not enough righteous Christians to suffer for them – and that even innocent babes must suffer?”

    it would appear so. that pretty much nails it, yes. how we all suffer for christianity.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Can I bring my little book with me when I return and start quoting from it and holding it up over every ones heads in order to make them believe it is the one?

  • http://sctv doug mckenzie

    Wasn’t your Bush proud that he didn’t follow polls, so why should Obama? as if 58 is a low number. Is the sky really falling clavos little?

    I shouldn’t be surprised that someone on the internet supports talk with no ability to back it up, but how do you know the iranian people don’t where the us stands? Surely your cia or other agencies are already over there working.

    Basing international policy on the uniformed opinion of a blogger speaks to the arrogance and ignorance that is causing your country’s descent from its perch.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    zingzing, I would like to ask you what this entry on bing.com means…That is what… by Jeannie Danna; what’s a “glory whole?” the entirety of glory? by zingzing; Please ignore comment #71. I was not finished:( damn computer! by Jeannie Danna

    * blogcritics.org/culture/article/?kinzua-reservoir-and-dam-the-road
    * · Cached page

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    I’m not really expecting a straightforward answer.

    perhaps bing is your employer?

  • Zedd

    Clavos,

    I suspect that the President is remaining cautious on this one because #1 we really don’t know if there are any good guys in this entire thing. #2 the over use of the finger wag from the US has rendered it meaningless if not laughable. We are currently like a hysterical mother who’s knuckle-headed kids get wilder by the day as her volume increases with each offense. Yep Iran could be naughty but who cares if we say so. We’ve been pointing at “the bad guys” for so long that no one cares. While Bush and crew were tisking at everyone, giving out “evil of the YEAR” awards and appointments DAILY, they were stealing the election, manufacturing a war and irresponsibly destroying the world’s economy.

    We’ve been ridiculous for some time now (to everyone but ourselves. We think we are sharp and matter). Chavez called Bush out and the sheep (or dense) among us were highly offended. Bush listed the ever so relevant “Axis of Eveeeel” while trampling on our economy, civil liberties, stealing power and causing the deaths of millions and letting things escalate in the most poor parts of our globe.

    Obama needs to step back and let the Iranians figure things tone down.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie,

    What is the reference for your #102?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Belated response to #s 72 and 73:

    Young Iranians, especially those attending universities, were regarded to be secular in outlook. But that was years ago, and partly perhaps, the result of US propaganda.

    Whether the same situation obtains today, I have no idea.

  • Irene Wagner

    Jeannie– bing.com is a search engine. Different search engines use different programs, and sometimes they turn up pages that only link to pages containing the given search criteria. I’m famous in google, a nobody in bing.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And your claim to fame is . . .

  • Irene Wagner

    …writing in blogcritics!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Same here, I suppose. So even if we don’t publish, we’ll be immortals.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    BTW, you may find Dan (Miller) “responses” on two other threads – both by Robert Barga. Same old, same old.

    Not very convincing, in my estimate. I said what I wanted to say on the matter and there’s nothing to add. No sense arguing until you’re blue in the face.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I suspect that the President is remaining cautious on this one because #1 we really don’t know if there are any good guys in this entire thing.

    I take it you are including the U.S. here.

    #2 the over use of the finger wag from the US has rendered it meaningless if not laughable.

    That the U.S. is still considered anything but a dominating bully by anyone but a) its own brainwashed citizens or b) (to a lesser extent) the citizens of its co-conspirators, is doubtful.

    It’s not a kindly aunt whose finger-wagging has earned it dismissal. It’s an oppressive tyrant whose bullying has earned it a well-deserved reputation.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That’s why the whole proposition that we have a clear voice with which to speak is ludicrous.

  • Irene Wagner

    Seen ‘em, Roger, but thanks. Even Iranians have a clear voice with which to speak. They just have to make each word a good one, for it may be their last. AND, as I’ve done my Christian damage for the day by (hopefully) reassuring Jeannie about the impartiality of zing, bing and zing, my last word for a while must be right before this “full stop—>.”

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    106

    Yes. That is the point of my post. That is what you made clear.

    You may have to understand why I answered you that way. So, here’s an explanation.

    I am trying to lay out the facts of history, including the parts that are not mentioned. I hope people could use them to question their assumptions.

    I am trying to give you information rather than giving you my own opinion. If, on that account, you simply think I haven’t addressed the point, there’s not a chance that my post will have much luck inspiring new thinking.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    102, 103

    Jeannie,

    Here is the thread where the conversation you found took place, in context.

    See the comments from #44 on.

    I hope that helps.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Irene, I don’t understand why zings name would be under my Kinzua article reference on Bing. He didn’t post a comment, so what’s up with this?
    I am really trying to keep a level head here, but it’s hard not to want some sort of explanation!
    People type in the information for these search engines. Don’t they?
    That #71 comment I made today, so why is it under an article that was written weeks ago?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Jeannie,

    On the many occasions that I have tried to in google, to find past comments posted on BC, I have always found that they seem to be jumbled like that.

    I don’t know why, I don’t know who would. It seems to be the ways search engines are set up that has something to do with it.

    If I were concerned (beyond not being able to find what I want half the time) I would write to the search engine.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    cindy, That was Monday that he said that under a story I have not read or commented on.
    I’m totally confused and I went over and bitched on his blog:(

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Cindy, What do you find when you google you?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Jeannie,

    Search engines aren’t like a librarian that files things exactly where they should go. They are based on both keywords and popularity (something like that, there may be a better word choice).

    They just ‘bring up’ whatever…based on those relationships (in my admitted limited understanding, and limited ability to explain).

    There is no guarantee of relevance or orderliness or anything. It is all haphazard (aside from those conditions)…like ones memory.

    That is the best explanation I can make with my limitations.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    When I google the name I normally use, I find every account I have! youtube, twitter, and pretty much every site I am signed up on.

    Also, I find there is a guy, whose wife apparently cheated on him, from what I can briefly tell, and who likes my name and uses it in a men’s forum. (Not half as bad as the guy who used the same name as me when I was a day trader and posted pornography!)

    When I google my real name, I find some petitions I’ve signed.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I still have no idea how you came up with that “glory” comment, Jeannie.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    She was looking in a search engine. It confubulated comments based on its own strange ways of doing things.

    Hey, I had no idea zing wrote article and had a blog (he even write a couple things there in 2007)

    I like his bio:

    “Zingzing is condescending. Zingzing make no bones. Zingzing has bigger ears, and more of them, than you do.”

    lol

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Sorry I’ll drop this subject it’s not worth the stress:(

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    haha I need to edit my posts. how silly…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Wait a minute! I wrote #125 before I read #122!
    I guess I shouldn’t be bitching…

    OMG LOL WTF 3@#@!! :0

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Bigger ears than grandma? A big bad wolf and little red riding hood.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    I want to trust the internet. Now that’s silly!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Trust it as far as you can throw it.
    I’m gonna watch a movie now. Later.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    I have to go make a correction comment now.:(

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I looked up your name in bing Jeannie. It is also putting things you said in this thread under that article name.

    Half the time I am looking for something someone said in blogcritics., I go to search with the few words I remember even with google advanced search it brings up some other unrelated article.

    The internet is like a brain. Sometimes subject to random assignment of data.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    I don’t like these search engines Cindy. In my mind it is a person writing those things, but it’s not is it?

    I left you a MSG on FB! Read it OK?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s like in

    ” . . ,every step you take, every move you make, I’ll be watching you”

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    The police? or just Sting…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    What do you think? Remember now what Chris said. You’ve got to let go of . . . you know what.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Wow, that was strange! My comment just disappeared into thin air.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Will talk later, Jeannie. I’m just waiting for an edit re: my submission.

  • Clavos

    Jeannie #74:

    [Had to take my wife to several doctor’s appts. today — just finished all the mundane stuff, time to give some responses]

    You say:

    President Obama is the most inclusive president we have ever had…

    Not sure what you even mean there, but in any case I don’t think I addressed it.

    President Obama does not want to force this country to change from “business as usual.

    Jeannie, he already has. Here are a few instances for you: AIG, GM, Chrysler, mandates limiting executive pay, bailouts, giving (yes, giving) a big chunk of an American auto manufacturer to a European one, screwing invesators in the takeovers of both GM and Chrysler, and on and on — it’s far from over.

    President Obama does not want to stand between you and your health care providers.

    He promises to save money while insuring an additional 50 million people. If you believe he can do that, I’ve a beautiful bridge in Brooklyn for sale. How do you think he’ll do both? By cuttiong services — there’s no other way to effect the kind of savings he promises. If he doesn’t cut services (and he may not due to the hue and cry), he will spend so much money we’ll never get out of debt. That part he’s already started — he “bailed out” GM and Chrysler with billions upon billions of our money and they are still declaring bankruptcy and laying off tens of thousands of workers.

    If GM hadn’t destroyed the EV1-Electric car, America would be at the for-front of the Automobile industry instead of having to file for bankruptcy.

    Jeannie, the troubles of the US car industry go back a lot farther than the EV-1 (for which, BTW we still don’t have adequate batteries. Current news reports indicate we’re negotiating with Asians to provide us with batteries because their technology is so much more advanced than ours). But back to the fall of the US auto makers: for decades, Jeannie, they built shitty cars, while the Japanese quietly moved into our market with sturdy, reliable autos which also cost (at first) a lot less than the American cars. They gave away the store to the UAW, which raised their costs even more, and now they are having to support and provide health insurance to over a million people who don’t even work for them — they’re retired. Ford woke up a few (very few) years ago, and began to emphasize quality — it’s a major reason they’re not looking for handouts from the government, but even Ford’s cars don’t yet measure up to the Asian product, which now includes Korean cars as well.

    Who says this is just a honeymoon?

  • Clavos

    Jeannie #94:

    I am often confused by Clavos! It seems to me that he does share my political point of view in some areas.

    That’s because I probably do.

    I’ve tried to point out repeatedly on many of these threads and for a long time, that I hold both liberal and conservative views — it’s the reason why I reject attempts to pigeonhole me as a Republican or even a conservative.

    On most social issues, I’m quite liberal, even more liberal on some than most Democrats or self-styled liberals. I’m conservative on fiscal matters, I’m against big government (the biggest reason I don’t support Obama), and big spending.

    In short: I’m an independent with views that both agree and disagree with both liberals and conservatives, depending on the issue.

  • Clavos

    Horace #90:

    You ask:

    Clavos, I’m wondering why you call the change Obama is trying to usher in “His private vision” afterall we had a issue orientated champagne where the canidates expressed their positions – then an election where voters voted for the positions/visions they shared. You sound like you Share some of Obama’s view so why call them private?

    You’re right in that we did have a fairly clear-cut, issues-oriented campaign season which, on the surface at least, appeared to give the voters clear choices, and you’re right, they voted accordingly.

    Or so they thought.

    Why do I say this? That’s the point of my article: much of what Obama has been doing since he took office is beginning to lose him the support of the very people who put him in office, as I demonstrate in the piece. thus, there appears to be a disconnect between the candidate the voters thought they were voting for, and the President they actually got; the polls seem to indicate that they are beginning to see this and pull away. If his vision is beginning to turn off the voters, it’s because it is not their vision, hence it has to be his “private” one.

    There is, according to news reports, dissension not only among the voters, but among some Democratic politicians as well — further evidence that he is marching to his own drum.

    i think the evidence shows that Obama’s vision is increasingly becoming private. Or, it may have always been; the platform he espoused during the campaign may have been tempered by the pragmatism necessary to get elected.

    Only Obama knows that for sure, but we can all see the discontent brewing in the ranks, and that’s what I tried to point out.

  • Bliffle

    Clavos:

    “He promises to save money while insuring an additional 50 million people…. How do you think he’ll do both? By cuttiong services — there’s no other way to effect the kind of savings he promises.”

    Not at all.

    Do the math.

    If we currently insure 200million people for $2.2trillion/year in the private insurance companies, and we propose to increase the head count by 50million people (about 25%), then cutting the Ins. Co. overhead rate from 40% to 3% (medicare overhead rate), we get the following:

    new annual cost for existing 200million people = $2.2T * (1 – 0.40 + 0.03) = $2.2T * 0.63 = $1.4T

    add in the new 50million people, 25%:
    cost for 250million people = $1.4 * 1.25 = $1.7T

    for a net savings of $0.5T/year.

    Do the math.

  • Clavos

    Sorry, Jeannie, I failed to close a tag back there, and part of my reply to you didn’t post. You asked:

    Who says this is just a honeymoon?

    As I pointed out in the article, it’s a concept invented by the press many years ago, to give a name to the period at the beginning of a new president’s tenure when they (and the voters) refrain from criticizing him while they wait to see how he’ll work out. The length of a honeymoon varies widely, according to how well the new chief executive does in everyone’s eyes.

    Obama’s seems to be just about over.

  • Clavos

    Way too simplistic, bliffle. Among other things, ignores the current $60B a year in Medicare fraud, which will inevitably skyrocket when Medicare is covering everyone.

    You also overlook the historic inability of the government to do anything inexpensively, from road building to rocketry to buying hammers or wheelchairs.

    The services will be cut, bet on it. people like my wife, who cost a lot of money and contribute nothing to society (because they can’t work), will inevitably be denied anything beyond palliative (hospice) treatment and warehoused.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Clav, Dan(Miller),

    Here is the latest on your subject matter.

    (and now I bid you adieu)

    Europeans pressure Iran to end protest crackdown

    AMSTERDAM – Europe has stepped up pressure on Iran to end its bloody crackdown on street protests, feeling less constrained to speak out than President Barack Obama — who has made engagement with the Islamic Republic a keystone of U.S. foreign policy.

    But like Obama, European leaders have tempered their reaction, wary of crossing a line that could make matters worse for the dissenters in Tehran and undermine efforts to contain Iranian nuclear ambitions.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    The services will be cut, bet on it. people like my wife, who cost a lot of money and contribute nothing to society (because they can’t work), will inevitably be denied anything beyond palliative (hospice) treatment and warehoused.

    A national health care system has to go along with a number of other things that most European countries have, but which America lacks. One of them is a sufficient system of benefits for those “unable to contribute to society (because they can’t work)”. Europe has some of these benefits, though the Europeans have paid for all their benefits by having few kids, and cutting their replacement populations, creating a labor shortage and what is now known as “Eurabia”. They’ve made a pact with the devil and are now paying him his due.

    However Israel, which has not cut its replacement population, does have such benefits. It would be worthwhile for any advocate of universal health care in the States to look carefully at the Israeli system and package of social welfare benefits.

    However before any American administration looks at such things, it would be healthier to get America back on the road of fiscal responsibility and stability. This, the sitting administration of the United States refuses to do. Therefore it has persuaded ABC News to do its propaganda work for it, and produce an extended infomercial pushing its version of health care from the White House in the guise of “news”. Thus, the sitting administratio admits that the task of restoring fiscal responsibility is the impossible one. Therefore the only questions are when will hyper-inflation start to kick in world-wide, and when will Obama’s popularity really fall?

  • Horace Mungin

    Clavos, I don’t think that there is a change in our shared vision, that is (slightly) lowering the president’s rating, but rather the difficulties he’s running into trying to deliver on our shared vision – patience is required here, but this is something we liberals are short on its been so long since we’ve had a chance to move the country forward. Plus, we want so much to make up for the wasted last eight years – gosh, the guys only been president for 5 months and 3 days. He can’t reverse the failures of the last eight years in that short a time – lets give him a full year, and if he can’t do it in a year, then start the impeachment movement. (Only joking)

  • Bliffle

    I call BS , Clavos. Where do you get this $60billion figure?

    “144 – Clavos

    Way too simplistic, bliffle. Among other things, ignores the current $60B a year in Medicare fraud, which will inevitably skyrocket when Medicare is covering everyone.”

    Says who?

    Way too simplistic.

    “You also overlook the historic inability of the government to do anything inexpensively, from road building to rocketry to buying hammers or wheelchairs.”

    What are you talking about? The transnational road system was built by the government (under Eisenhower, a Republican) and has performed magnificently, both to unite the country and to promote commerce.

    The government sent rockets and even astronauts to the moon.

    And if you think that private companies don’t buy overpriced hammers and whatever it just proves you’ve never worked in the engineering department of any major electronics company.

    “The services will be cut, bet on it. people like my wife, who cost a lot of money and contribute nothing to society (because they can’t work), will inevitably be denied anything beyond palliative (hospice) treatment and warehoused.
    #”

    Feeling guilty, Clavos? Afraid your fortuitous sweetheart deal with Humana will end? You know, the one where you get $70k of benefits every year for a $11k premium?

  • Baronius

    “his vision and proposals are and have been bold, perhaps excessively so in some instances”

    Clavos, I can accept the word “bold” in reference to their size and speed, but all of the policies I can think of have been intellectually timid. His energy and education policies were born in the 1970’s; his health care policy is right out of the Clinton years. His economic and budgetary policies are big, but you can’t call them original. They’ve followed the Democratic script. The most distinct aspect of his foreign policy, his outreach to Muslim nations, is just a replication of Carter’s attitude toward Communism.

  • Clavos

    I call BS , Clavos. Where do you get this $60billion figure?

    Call BS all you want, bliffle, your calls don’t mean anything to me anyway. We’ve already been round and round on this one on other threads, and I’ve given you citations, including from FBI reports, for that figure.

    What are you talking about? The transnational road system was built by the government (under Eisenhower, a Republican) and has performed magnificently, both to unite the country and to promote commerce.

    As usual, your reading comprehension is sub par, bliffle. I said “”You also overlook the historic inability of the government to do anything inexpensively, from road building to rocketry to buying hammers or wheelchairs.” The operative word is inexpensively.

    And the road system you say “has performed magnificently, both to unite the country and to promote commerce, is the chief reason for urban sprawl and the decline of most of our central cities. It also is a prime contributor to our dependence on foreign oil, by forcing most of us to commute large distances to work. Urban sprawl has also impeded racial integration.

    The government sent rockets and even astronauts to the moon.

    At enormous expense for relatively little gain — it was a PR stunt more than anything. However, as I’ve said in the past, NASA is one of only a handful of government agencies that is not totally inept.

    And if you think that private companies don’t buy overpriced hammers and whatever…

    If (not when) they do, they aren’t spending taxpayer’s money.

    Feeling guilty, Clavos? Afraid your fortuitous sweetheart deal with Humana will end?

    Guilty? Absolutely not, I have nothing for which to feel guilty, and Humana makes lots of profit, even paying my wife’s bills. Afraid Obama and his plan will put Humana out of the health insurance business? You bet.

  • Clavos

    Baronius,

    Agreed. I didn’t say he’s innovative or a trailblazer; his boldness lies primarily in the way he’s spending money.

  • Bliffle

    I don’t see any FBI report that says “…$60B a year in Medicare fraud…”.

    You’ve never even given a bad citation.

    I’m calling you out Clavos: show me a citation for that FBI report.

    Otherwise you’re just full of BS.

  • Clavos

    I already cited it for you on another thread a few days ago, bliffle.

    Not my problem you didn’t read it.

    You want it, go back and find it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    A must-see on the Iranian resistance.

    Don’t forget the featured Utube video.

  • Zedd

    What is more significant with regard to Iran is who Obama is. Interesting and seemingly comprehensive viewpoint on Fresh Air today(Understanding Iran’s Turmoil: An Expert Weighs In
    ).

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Clavos, In case you missed The Health Care Conversation I thought President Obama made a very clear argument as to where the money to pay for Health care will come, by cutting out the wasteful spending!

    To counter your assertion that the batteries have not been developed yet, I beg to differ. The most successful EV ever made, the Toyota RAV4-EV on the right, is still active in California in fleet and individual use, still running on the original pre-2002 Nickel Metal Hydride batteries and still retaining a range over 100 miles, even though Toyota is not providing replacement batteries. All the other EVs produced under the prodding of the ZEV Mandate, including the 1997 EV1 on the left, were NEVER SOLD OR OFFERED FOR SALE, and all have been destroyed by permission of CARB when, in March, 2003, CARB surrendered to the petroleum industry and the Bush regime. It appears to me that the big oil companies and their supporters are the demise of GM,not the UAWU!

    He’s still on his honeymoon

  • Bliffle

    There’s no citation to an FBI report saying there’s $60billion in fraud.

  • Bliffle

    Now here is an FBI citation to an attempted fraud:

    FBI fraud report

    An ATTEMPTED fraud of $1.1million, but the perps were caught.

  • Clavos

    Jeannie,

    You need to read more carefully. I didn’t say that batteries haven’t been developed yet, I said “BTW we still don’t have adequate batteries. Current news reports indicate we’re negotiating with Asians to provide us with batteries because their technology is so much more advanced than ours.”

    Even now, there is only one American battery maker that even comes close to the Asian level of expertise, and even they are facing enormous challenges in trying to catch up with the Asians.

  • Clavos

    I thought President Obama made a very clear argument as to where the money to pay for Health care will come, by cutting out the wasteful spending!

    Sure, Jeannie. You need to take a look at that bridge I have for sale up in NY. You’ll love it.

    Obama, the President who is spending more than any other in history is going to cut spending? Uh huh.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Yes Clavos, That’s what the link I provided says.
    My point is to say it was not the UAW that brought GM down. It was the oil companies and GM pulling back on research and development of the batteries and then destroying the EV1 that is at fault here.

    If we had stuck to it we wouldn’t need help today.

  • Clavos

    The oil companies had nothing to do with the demise of GM. Bad management for more than forty years did it; the built shitty cars for decades because management took its eye off the quality ball and let the Japs steal a march on them.

    Management also caved to every demand from the UAW without a thought for the future of GM, conceding incredibly liberal benefits that a first year economics student could have told them would break the company, but they were cowards and afraid of the UAW, so they caved.

    You build shitty cars and don’t control your costs for decades and you will go down.

    I’m old enough to remember when “Made in Japan” meant junk. Since the sixties “Made in the USA” has meant junk in the car biz.

    The real irony is that it was an American, W.Edwards Deming, how to do business with Americans.

    Now, the Japanese are over here, still building better cars more economically and with American workers, while GM and Chrysler fade into the sunset of their history.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Clavos, You just don’t want to admit it….Big Oil controls this country. From the plastic bags we accept in the grocery stores to carry food, to the the toys our children play with, even the makeup products our women wear!

    It’s all petroleum-based

    and it’s causing cancer

  • Bliffle

    I explained how, in #142, US healthcare could be extended to the 50million people who have NO healthcare, while reducing the total overall cost of US healthcare. In simple math. And yet, none of the worthies of BC have even attempted a refutation.

    So I assume that my proof stands.

  • Clavos

    Sure, bliffle, assume what you want — enjoy!

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Jeannie,

    Are you quite sure that is the right link? I don’t see anything there about petroleum based products like cosmetics and vaseline causing cancer. I would be very surprised to hear that.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Cindy, Your right, this is not the right link. I can’t find it this morning but I will later!