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News Analysis from Israel: Life Imitates Art – Talking Turkey About the Flotilla Fallout

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Part I – We Con the World

Life Imitating Art

Life has a funny way of imitating art. Caroline Glick, a prominent Israeli news commentator who produces "Tribal Update" as part of her "Latma TV" satires on YouTube, featured a "Captain Stabbing," the "Love Boat" captain of one of the "Free Gaza" flotilla ships from Turkey, as part of Tribal Update #53. In the scene, Captain Stabbing is being interviewed by the Tribal Update news anchors, and one of them calls attention to a long knife or machete in his hand. He drops the machete on a table and describes it as a cat, a different kind of cat from Turkey. Then he calls for one of the crew members to take the "cat" away.

This morning (6 June 2010), an Arab was caught with a knife having a 25 cm blade at a checkpoint east of Ramallah. But life is usually less artful than art. The 25 centimeter knife was confiscated by the IDF, and the Arab who possessed it was taken in for questioning. Captain Stabbing, on the other hand was allowed to launch into a song, "We Con The World," with his crew on the ship. Tribal Update #53 has gotten 46,000 hits so far on YouTube (as of 12:00 on 7 June). But Ms. Glick edited the song as a stand-alone feature, and it has gone viral on YouTube, getting 1,310,000 hits (as of the same time of day on 7 June). A second stand-alone of the same song, also edited by Ms. Glick, has gotten some 110,000 hits. When the mass media lies through its teeth, other means of getting the truth out must be found.

The Lying Mass Media

And the mass media has been lying through its teeth, doing all it can to delegitimize this country and its efforts at self defense, puny as they are. This story, distributed by the Associated Press, is written in a way designed to inflame anti-Israel sentiment. When the AP puts out something, thousands of other media vehicles, members of the Associated Press, put it out as "news" as well. Then there is this story, a BBC whine about the murder of Hamas "operative," the terrorist, Mahmoud al-Mabhouh. While the BBC manages to forget the British calling Israel "that shitty little country," they do manage to note that they were called "dogs" by an Israel member of the Knesset. When the left hates, they are petty and spiteful – and they never shut up.

The problem is that if we Jews were to blow up all the anti-Jewish media out there, or hack it so it were crippled, there would be few newspapers or media sources at all. And, the mainstream media are just the tip of the iceberg. Then there are the lying anti-Israel bloggers who stain the blogosphere like pigeon feces on a statue.

Bil'am said of the Children of Israel: "For from the top of the rocks I see him, and from the hills I behold him: lo, it is a people that shall dwell alone, and shall not be reckoned among the nations." [b'midbár/Numbers 23:9] This means, among other things, that the rest of mankind will lie about the Children of Israel. And they do. This too, is part of being alone. But the most important thing to do here is not to whine about the blathering media. The most important thing to do so as to understand what is going on is to talk Turkey.

Part II – Talking Turkey

What is going on with Turkey right now is that they are pretending to be the "heroes" of the "poor 'Palestinians'." Why? Why did the régime there abandon its strategic alliance with Israel to throw in its lot with the mad mullahs of Persia and the Wahhabi murderers backed by the United States (the PLO), and by the Egyptian Brotherhood (Hamas)? Why do such an idiotic thing? A little background is required.

Fall of an Empire to Founding a Modern Nation

Way back around 1908, there was a revolution in Turkey that effectively stripped the Sultan of his power, as a group very concerned with the tailspinning decline of the Ottoman Empire took over. This group was known as the Committee of Union and Progress. The original revolution did not stop this decline, as the Italians annexed Libya in 1911, and the Serbs, Montenegrins, Bulgarians and Greeks all ganged up on Turkey in 1912 and effectively drove the Turks out of Europe altogether. By 1913, a triumvirate of men had taken over Turkey who were known as the three pashas, and they attempted to rectify the situation in the country. Their policies were doomed to failure.

When the Great War broke out in 1914, and the Turks joined the Central Powers against the Entente Cordiale, as the Western Allies were originally known, the most successful fronts for the Turks were the Sinai and Gelibolu – Gallipoli. At Gelibolu, Australian and New Zealand soldiers fighting for the British Empire faced up against Mustafa Kemal, the Turkish commander – and were soundly defeated. After his victory over the ANZAC troops, he was sent to the Eastern front to deal with the Russians. And he defeated them as well, so that in 1917 when the Czar's régime fell, he was able to be sent to the problematic Syrian Front, to attempt to save the collapsing Turkish forces, who had been driven from Gaza and the Sinai by General Allenby. He fought at Megiddo, and managed an orderly withdrawal north through Syria to a line that became the armistice line.

When the Allied powers tried to slice up Anatolia the way they had sliced up the Middle East, and when the Greeks invaded Turkey, Mustafa Kemal had had enough. He was the leader of the Turkish soldiers who fought to preserve Anatolia as the Turkish homeland, and to stop European imperialists from oppressing Turks the way they were already oppressing Arabs.

In a series of sweeping reforms carried out over a number of years, the Sultanate was abolished, the Caliphate was abolished, the use of Arabic letters to write Turkish was abolished, the Ottoman legal system was replaced with the Swiss Civil Code, as Mustafa Kemal, who had renamed himself Kemal Attatürk, pushed his fellow Turks towards westernization. He wanted his fellow Turks to stop seeing themselves as subjected to a Khalif, or a Sultan, and to start seeing themselves as intelligent people who could reach into their traditions to improve and develop their nation.

It's worth noting a few lines from this tradition to understand some of the Turkish actions:

…by complete independence, we mean of course complete economic, financial, juridical, military, cultural independence and freedom in all matters. Being deprived of independence in any of these is equivalent to the nation and country being deprived of all its independence.

Gerd Nonneman, Analyzing Middle East foreign policies and the relationship with Europe

The present leaders of Turkey are acting in manners that are antithetical to the secularizing Attatürk – but the nationalism they draw on is directly from Kemal Attatürk. This is the first point to keep in mind in analyzing events in Turkey today.

Fast Forwarding….

What we see in Turkey today is a movement to reverse the secularization of the country accomplished from the third to sixth decades of the 20th Century. The present régime, the AK, is the descendant of a number of political parties that have been pushing the re-Islamization of Turkey. They are allied with the Egyptian Brotherhood, which is a Wahhabi based organization, and they follow loosely the ideas set down by the Saudi thugdom. Therefore, they are also allied with Hamas. They see Turkey today as Egypt was 40 years ago – and their goal is to move it to the Saudi Arabia or Persia of today.

The AK party is opposed by the many of the country's generals and much of the military – which is strongly secular in the Kemal Attatürk tradition. The AK has done what it could to weaken the military, and to strengthen the police, which it controls. The Kemalist Europeanizing efforts were carried out at a time when much of Europe was under dictatorships, so the murderousness of the Turks towards the Armenians and their suppression of Kurdish culture within Turkey was not an issue while Attatürk was alive. But in the decades after he was dead, when the Europeans began to shed those dictatorships, the smellier aspects of Turkish "democracy" became more bothersome.

As the Europeans became more foppish, dandified and politically correct, their willingness to have non-Christian Turks in their Christian European Union got smaller and smaller. And the Turks, who are sensitive to these snubs, voted in the AK as a result. Europeans, whose genocides and massacres make the Turks look like nothing worse than strict schoolmarms, forget their own sins and do not want to allow the Turks entry into their "civilized" European Union. So, a political party that turns its back on Europe, and embraces Muslims instead, had gained widespread sympathy in Turkey – for the time being, anyway.

And Now to the Present

Several experts have gone over the events of the last week or so and discovered that the Turkish involvement has little to do with "Palestinian" Arabs, for whom Turks have little use, and for all of the bluster and threats they have little to do with Israel either. They have to do with securing the position of the AK party in Turkey, as the government of Erdogan is in political trouble domestically. In essence, what the Erdogan régime has done is very clever. They have wrapped themselves in the Turkish flag, using Kemalist style nationalism to force the military to go along with a foolish campaign of foreign adventurism designed to take the average Turk's mind off of corruption and abuse of civil rights. According to Ephraim Inbar, of the Sadat Begin Center for Strategic Studies at Bar Ilan University, "Erdogan has decided to exacerbate his relations with Israel in order to gain public support."

Further analysis along these lines can be found from Barry Rubin, here, and speculation over what the deal is with Persia cozying up to Turkey can be found from Persia expert, Michael Ledeen here. And Caroline Glick, writing in the Jerusalem Post, points out:

Since the radical Islamic AKP party took over Turkey in 2003, its leader, Prime Minister Recip Erdogan, has presided over the thorough brainwashing of the Turkish people. According to repeated polling data, the majority of Turks believe that Israel and America are demonic, murderous nations that kill innocent people for entertainment. Erdogan has cultivated anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism for two reasons. First, doing so enables him to divert his people's attention away from his government's economic failures. Stirred into frenzies of hatred, the Turks willingly rally behind their leader, who is saving them from the Jewish and Yankee beasts.

Then there is Erdogan's goal of reasserting Turkish regional dominance and reclaiming the lost power of the Ottomans as the leader of the Islamic world. His decision in 2006 to be the first world leader to host Hamas terror masters on an official visit after their victory in the Palestinian elections was a clear bid to win popularity for Turkey among the Arab masses.

Iran and Turkey understand that attacking the Jewish state is the fastest route to the top of the Muslim world.

Ledeen's analysis also makes sense. If the Turks do go to war against Israel, HizbAllah could serve as a vital back-up, rather than having to bear the brunt for the the Persian war effort. Ledeen's comments are telling.

What about the Turks? Daniel Jackson thinks Erdogan is serious about using the flotilla incident as causus belli and that Turkey is preparing to go to war against Israel. I am no expert on Turkey, but I am prepared to consider the possibility that the Iranians have urged him to attack, and that they swear to Allah that they’ve got his back. It would be folly to believe the mullahs, who love to gull others into doing their dirty work, but Erdogan might be dreaming crazy dreams about being the great liberator, taking back the Holy Land, and reconstituting the Empire/Caliphate.

Such crazy dreams might well be the stuff over which war is fought in the next few weeks or months.

And we can never forget those "peace activists" from Gaza. This morning (7 June 2010), four of them, divers in wet suits, were seen by Israeli naval soldiers and shot dead, foiling a major attack via infiltration. The last time someone succeeded with such a stunt, 37 Israelis were killed.

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About Ruvy

Hi!! Thanks for coming to my article! I was raised in Brooklyn, was graduated from the City University of New York in 1978 with a BA in political science and public administration there. I lived in Minnesota for a number of years. There I managed restaurants and wrote stories. We moved with our children family to Israel where we now reside. My work can be found at Ruvy's Roost, Jewish Indy,, and on Facebook under my full name, Reuven Kossover
  • Baronius

    Ruvy, I can root for Israel, but when you say things like you did about the BBC it’s impossible to root for *you*.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Ruvy, do you even understand the function of quotation marks in a news story? Or do you just enjoy shooting messengers?

    As is your frequent habit nowadays, you’ve taken a piece which seeks to report, among other things, public opinion within Israel and elsewhere regarding the al-Mabhouh assassination; and, purely because some of the views reported are negative towards Israel, you manage to extrapolate from this that not only the reporter but his employers and indeed his entire country are Jew-haters.

    It makes as much sense as if I were to come up to you and let you know that some guy down the street says he saw you knock the wing mirror off his car and isn’t happy about it; and you were to conclude from this that I hate all Jewish drivers.

  • Ruvy

    These are comments to the article by Michael Ledeen, an article I suggest you read, instead of getting your panties all twisted up over the BBC.

    Erdogan has delusions of grandeur, he thinks he’s the toughest guy on the block, the mentality of a bully. As for the Iranians, they just LOVE proxies to do their dirty work until they get the bomb, then, watch out, these people are seriously crazy, these fanatics live in a delusional world, they dream of the new Islamic Conquest, like in the time of Mohammed. I’m from a Muslim country originally, seemingly Western, educated, rational people, when you get on the subject of Islam become irrational raving madmen, they have wet-dreams of conquest, of subjugating the infidels, of the triumph of Islam, domination – it’s exactly like the stereotypes of Nazi party members, SS types. Their eyes glaze over & they start reciting crap from the Qur’an & get more & more agitated as they do so.
    You Westerners have NO idea what you are dealing with.

    additionally, I suggest you pay careful attention to this comment as well…

    I’ve read reports that link the White House to the Gaza flotilla, specifically, naming Mr Brennan. The Free Gaza movement is supported by Code Pink & Bill Ayres & his wife, both close friends of Obama. Obama wants the Gaza blockade lifted, calling it ”unsustainable” & wants to legitimize Hamas.
    I don’t usually give a lot of credit to conspiracy theories – it is a sad example of the lack of trust I have in the U.S. these days that I find this credible. Our gov’t. is obliged to be diplomatic, our media is generally restrained. But ordinary people here in Israel curse Obama, he is becoming as hated as Ahmadinejad or Nasrallah.

    Pay attention to the second part of the article here, if you haven’t got the sense to enjoy the parodies in the first part. If a war breaks out here, it will change your world, and probably not for the better.

  • zingzing

    “Obama wants the Gaza blockade lifted, calling it ”unsustainable” & wants to legitimize Hamas.”

    seems somewhat reasonable. the gaza blockade WILL lead to war. it is “unsustainable.”

    and how do you get rid of terrorists? make them far too busy with running a gov’t to be bothered with blowing shit up. one man’s terrorism is another man’s revolution. once the revolution is over, the “terrorist”/”revolutionist” becomes… the government.

    it’s not ideal, of course, but then again, nothing is in that part of the world.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Ruvy, as fond as you are of censuring American commenters for not knowing what they are talking about because they’re not sitting where you’re sitting, you seem awfully confident about the prevailing mood in Britain, based on a few anecdotes from cherry-picked sources, even though you’ve never set foot in the place.

    I grant you that there are always going to be a few misguided so-and-sos who get their knickers in a twist: in most cases you can trace their ideological roots back to the left wing of the 1980s Labour Party (which was appropriately dubbed ‘Militant’) – whose influences can in turn be traced back to Soviet Russia, and we all know how much they loved Jews.

    But I spent the first 34 years of my life in the Old Dart, as Stan calls it, and I assure you that the vast majority of Britons are not raving anti-Semitic mooncalves. Most are, in fact, broadly supportive of Israel, albeit not of all of her behaviour.

  • http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/author/danmiller/ Dan(Miller)

    It seems as though perhaps the word is getting out. Perhaps some good will come of it.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Who is Paul, Dan? Just another blogger, I suppose, no last name, consequently just another opinion.

    The world is full of duplicity, and you don’t have to look to the UN to find it. Our own government is full of it.

    Do you suppose there is no other solution to the Gaza situation than the blockade? Do you approve of the existing arrangements? And what does it matter what the sheeple thinks. The US has long been out of touch with the international community, and there’s only one reason for it: we don’t want to relinquish our hegemony.

    Let’s call a spade a spade. We support wars and conflicts which suit our national interest, shy from those that do not.

    No one is Mr. Clean.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    There is another incongruity to consider. You argue that MSM pushed the activists’ side of the story. I beg to differ – most of the coverage issued from international press.

    But let’s assume for a moment you’re right. And if so, then how would you explain the coverage of the Helen Thomas affair? Admittedly, she had gone over the top. Still, it wasn’t hate speech but an expression of frustration.

    Again, I’m not justifying Helen, especially since she’s a member of the media. But why crucify her for it? Rush, Hannity and Beck make outrageous statements on a daily basis. Rush may be excused because he’s got his own spiel. But the other two? They’re part of Fox News network – unless you’re going to disqualify it as a news medium.

    Anyway, your argument concerning MSM doesn’t compute.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    To change the subject, Dreadful, I’m just re-watching Lost Horizon, and I’ve got to say, you’ve had some hunks for the movie actors – Robert Colman, Ronald Colman, Errol Flynn.

    Nothing to be ashamed of. And I’m not even talking Burton or Olivier.

  • http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/author/danmiller/ Dan(Miller)

    Roger, re # 7: Here is a link to the “about us” page at Power Line. You can see the photos and brief bios of the people; you can even ascertain where they live and what they do for a living. Unlike some, their identities are readily ascertainable.

    I generally prefer writers who identify themselves over those who hide behind “anonymous” or similar uninformative words.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    What we see in Turkey today is a movement to reverse the secularization of the country accomplished from the third to sixth decades of the 20th Century.

    As you well know, Ruvy, there are millions in Turkey who do NOT want such a reverse…but what Israel did with the aid flotilla (not to mention the Gaza blockade for the past few years) has strengthened the hand of the Muslim extremists in Turkey immeasurably. In other words, thanks to Israel, they’re probably going to officially reject secularism and become the newest Islamic republic.

    Just as Bush’s invasion of Iraq resulted in a resounding strategic victory for IRAN, Israel’s stubbornness will result in a strategic victory for the Sunnis in general, and the Wahhabis in particular.

    I think what you and the Israeli government has forgotten is that earnest efforts of goodwill speak loudly in any language…and that one wrong thing done wipes out the good will earned by a hundred good things done. The world would not have condemned the killing of Islamic militants in wetsuits…but will always condemn the killing of NON-militants on unarmed ships (and don’t you dare call them ‘armed’, for if you do, you don’t know the meaning of the word). As a result, the understanding you wish the rest of the world would have for Israel’s actions and predicament will not happen.

    There is one and only one way out of the trap Israel is in – to do something completely different (also known as ‘apologizing’ for what they did that was certainly wrong, and to hold themselves to a higher standard than they do the barbarians waiting outside their gates.

    Thanks to your hardliners, what you appear to want – a war that Israel cannot hope to win – might just be inevitable. I do so hope I’m wrong.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Indeed, Glenn, it’s deplorable – the voice reaction prompted by Israeli policy.

  • Ruvy

    Glenn, I see you’ve managed – deliberately? – to miss the point here. Lets repeat it for you so it is clear as day.

    Several experts have gone over the events of the last week or so and discovered that the Turkish involvement has little to do with “Palestinian” Arabs, for whom Turks have little use, and for all of the bluster and threats they have little to do with Israel either. They have to do with securing the position of the AK party in Turkey, as the government of Erdogan is in political trouble domestically. In essence, what the Erdogan régime has done is very clever. They have wrapped themselves in the Turkish flag, using Kemalist style nationalism to force the military to go along with a foolish campaign of foreign adventurism designed to take the average Turk’s mind off of corruption and abuse of civil rights. According to Ephraim Inbar, of the Sadat Begin Center for Strategic Studies at Bar Ilan University, “Erdogan has decided to exacerbate his relations with Israel in order to gain public support.”

    Caroline Glick chimes in, pointing out that,

    “Since the radical Islamic AKP party took over Turkey in 2003, its leader, Prime Minister Recip Erdogan, has presided over the thorough brainwashing of the Turkish people. According to repeated polling data, the majority of Turks believe that Israel and America are demonic, murderous nations that kill innocent people for entertainment. Erdogan has cultivated anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism for two reasons. First, doing so enables him to divert his people’s attention away from his government’s economic failures. Stirred into frenzies of hatred, the Turks willingly rally behind their leader, who is saving them from the Jewish and Yankee beasts.

    Then there is Erdogan’s goal of reasserting Turkish regional dominance and reclaiming the lost power of the Ottomans as the leader of the Islamic world. His decision in 2006 to be the first world leader to host Hamas terror masters on an official visit after their victory in the Palestinian elections was a clear bid to win popularity for Turkey among the Arab masses.”

    And let’s see – we are supposed to apologize for defending ourselves [edited]?

    Sinking the boat [edited] is what I would have done, but [edited] Ehud Barak sent in marines with paint ball guns! Glenn, we are the civilized ones and the Turks and the Wahhabi are the savages. They get to apologize to us for their savagery, NOT the other way round.

    [edited] If Erdogan is stupid enough to go to war and stupid enough to be gulled by a bunch of Persians, then the Turks deserve the hell we will give them.

  • Ruvy

    En fin, Glenn, the Turks have never paid for targeting the Armenians for genocide. Nor do they admit it. Perhaps, if there is a slaughter of Turkish innocents, the Armenian blood that cries for vengeance will be stilled, and we can at last say, “justice will have been executed upon murderers”.

  • Ruvy

    In case it is not clear to anyone by now, this video report from Arutz Sheva should make it clear. These Turkish “flotillas” are not about aid. They are about an effort to break Israeli sovereignty and impose Turkish and Iranian hegemony over Israel. And that is NOT going to happen. We’ll go to war first, and we will destroy our enemies. And if the Muslims are get angry – that’s just too damned bad.

  • zingzing

    what that video says is that hamas sucks. big news. the israeli people who are trying to get this stuff to those people are good people. the people who aren’t picking it up stink. but that’s just how it goes over there. politicians are fucking this shit up on both ends. the people on either side aren’t wrong. it’s the politics that are wrong.

    as i’ve always maintained, ruvy, you might note, your governments are the culprits here, not the people. nobody needed to die bringing this stuff over. and there’s no reason that stuff should not be brought in.

    it’s just mind-boggling how difficult this shit is.

  • zingzing

    and by “the people,” i mean the ordinary folk who aren’t idiots about all this shit. your take on this is ridiculous. the flotillas aren’t trying to break israeli sovereignty. they’re trying to help people. this blockade must end. or else you will go to a war that you won’t win.

  • Ruvy

    and don’t you dare call them ‘armed’, for if you do, you don’t know the meaning of the word

    The Turkish ship was an armed ship. Belowdecks, hundreds of slingshots were found. In this part of the world, a slingshot is a weapon for slinging rocks. Rocks kill. In fact, if you think about it, a bullet is just a rock thrown out of a specialized rock-thrower at high speed. Slingshots here are used to attempt to kill Israelis – from a distance.

    As I pointed out, there was no aid on this ship that was meant seriously to be sent to Gaza. The Gazan de-facto government, Hamas, has refused the aid (see the previous comments). Obviously it is not needed. More to the point, the real intention of the Turks on the ship – to kill Jews – was obvious from one of the members of the ship telling the Israelis to “shut up and go back to Auschwitz”, a link edited out of a previous comment. Look it up on You Tube. This combined with their violent behavior proves my point.

    The crew of the Irish ship, the “Linda” (Rachel Corrie), equally adamant in its desire to go to Gaza, invited the Israeli captain to have a cup of tea to discuss further actions. They were boarded with no violence at all. You can look that up on You Tube as well. It is there.

    Finally, you are talking to a police volunteer and someone taxed (literally) with responsibility for guarding the village he lives in. I know what armed is and isn’t. I have to.

  • Ruvy

    This is not exactly an update. This news is two days old, but is worth looking at anyway. According to Debkafiles, The Turkish AK of regime Recep Erdogan has replaced its intelligence chiefs with Wahhabists loyal to him personally. At the end of May, before the first flotilla was taken over, Turkish soldiers had been sent to Turkish Cyprus to back up the ships at sea. Apparently, according to the Mossad (Debkafiles is the Mossad’s “leaky back door”), these soldiers were not used because Erdogan was threatened by Obama (surprise, surprise!).

    I looks like the Turks want war. In fact, it appears, this war may already be in progress. The Arab “frogmen” who tried to covertly attack Israel are part of a larger fight, with Israeli operatives stirring up trouble in Turkish Kurdistan. This is a developing story, and one worth eying closely.

  • http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/author/danmiller/ Dan(Miller)

    Ruvy,

    I have a question, to which there is of course no way of knowing the answer.

    Still, here goes: What would have happened had Turkey been admitted to the EU several years ago, back when that was under consideration. Might the secular forces have prevailed, would that have made a significant difference in the apparent position taken by Turkey vis a vis Israel and the Palestinians, and whatever?

    Dan(Miller)

  • Baronius

    Perhaps, if there is a slaughter of Turkish innocents, the Armenian blood that cries for vengeance will be stilled, and we can at last say, “justice will have been executed upon murderers”.

    Ruvy, I can understand where this idea comes from. Your religion is based on the promises exchanged between G-d and your bloodline. But how can the rest of the world think in those terms?

    The Turks who murdered the Armenians have been in the grave for 50 years. There’s no vengeance to be had on them. The Armenian blood doesn’t cry out for vengeance against a bunch of strangers who are probably ignorant of their grandparents’ sins. Even granting the unique relationship between the Jewish person and his tribe, I don’t see how you can apply it to other bloodlines. That way madness lies.

  • Baronius

    Dan, Mark Steyn has an indirect answer to your question. He sees the Kemalist west of Turkey being overrun by the Islamic east. It’s an interesting article.

  • Ruvy

    To answer you, Dan, it probably means war now – and if Turkey were in the EU, it wouldn’t – but the chances are that the leading powers of the EU would be putting all kinds of pressures on a secularist regime to ditch Israel. In other words, it would be 6 eggs one way and half a dozen the other.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I happen to think Turkey is still being run by a secularist regime – as per Orhan Pamuk, the recent Noble Prize winner in literature.

    I don’t see their sympathizing with the Palestinians and their opposition to the Gaza blockade as necessarily constituting a reversal.

  • Ruvy

    Baronius, this is not something I’ll make a fight over – but before assuming what Armenians think, I suggest you ask some.

    In the Old City of Jerusalem, in the Armenian section, you can find maps all over detailing the villages that the Turks decimated in 1915-16. You can bet your bottom dollar that there is a deep desire by Armenians to see some kind of justice done. Armenian blood does cry out for vengeance from the ground of the mountains around Armenia. The Armenians who live have not forgotten.

    If war does break out, maybe justice will be served, and the Armenians will get some measure of closure over the evil the Turks have done them. But that is something I can only speculate about.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yet, he’s itching.

  • Baronius

    Ruvy, I’m sure there’s resentment; there always is. But it’s un-Christian. It’s the kind of thing that destroys whole generations. The fascination with revenge and bloodlines always leads to destruction. I hope the Christian descendents of Armenia don’t give into it.

    Come to think of it, while I can understand the Jewish bond, why do you see other groups in terms of their bloodlines? Why do you condemn Europeans, for example, based on the actions of their ancestors? What does the rest of the world have to do with your people’s unique covenant with G-d? It seems like you should be able to judge Gentile individuals on their own merit.

  • Ruvy

    Baronius, I won’t tell you what is “Christian” or “un-Christian”. It’s not for me to tell an Armenian what to feel about his ancestors who were murdered off 9 decades ago. But I do know that for 17 centuries Jews were judged by what one Jew allegedly did to another – or by the fact that they were killed in a battle near Mecca. Jews were not judged on their own merit at all.

    Given all the people who would slice Israel to bits (verbally), and I’ve seen a good 300 comments worth of that over the last week or so, and given that slicing Israel to bits really is a way of slicing Jews to bits – like Helen Thomas did a few days ago on camera – I see no reason why I should be nice enough to judge gentiles on their own merit – here. I can, and off this site, generally do. I have, all my life. But faced with the anti-Jewish and anti-Israel hostility I see here, I see no point to – here.

    Apart from all that, in the instance of the Armenians, I feel strongly that they have been denied justice by an unfair and bigoted world, and they deserve both vengeance and justice. And that is me empathizing with them as a Jew who seeks justice. tzedek, tzedek tirdof – justice, justice shall you pursue [Deuteronomy 16].

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    “Since the radical Islamic AKP party took over Turkey in 2003, its leader, Prime Minister Recip Erdogan, has presided over the thorough brainwashing of the Turkish people.

    And apparently you missed MY point that Israel’s actions are strengthening the Islamic extremists’ hand immeasurably…just as the actions of al-Qaeda in 9/11 greatly strengthened the hold of the Republicans on the American government. The reactions of a nation whose people have been killed are no different – and Israel, of all nations, should understand that!

    And you’re calling slingshots ‘weapons’? Sure, Ruvy, they can be used as weapons. So can rocks. So can wrenches. So can blowdryers. So can toothbrushes. Your “the ship was armed” statement borders on hysteria. I suggest you sit back, take a cup of decaf tea, and see that you yourself are not immune from extremism.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    I see no reason why I should be nice enough to judge gentiles on their own merit

    The comment was about Helen Thomas, right? You DO know, of course, that she’s been a White House correspondent since the Kennedy administration, right? In 27 seconds she threw away a truly stellar (and trailblazing) career for a anti-Semitic statement, the like of which can be heard on almost any day on the Rabid Right radio shows.

    Even GOP presidential candidate Patrick Buchanan said (in so many words), “With Obama’s nomination of Donna Kagan, now there are too many Jews on the Supreme Court”, but did the Rabid Right do anything about it? And did I hear you give Obama credit for nominating who (if Buchanan’s right) would be the third Jew sitting on the Supreme Court bench?

    Nah – you wouldn’t do that, because you’re just SO sure that Obama’s out to destroy all of Judaism.

    What you should do, Ruvy, is realize that Helen Thomas, the woman who was the single most respected reporter (and perhaps even the most untouchable reporter) in ALL of American journalism (fifty years as a White House correspondent), got canned for one – count ’em, ONE – stupid anti-Semitic statement. AMERICA canned her, Ruvy. NO significant political or journalistic entity came to her rescue.

    But to listen to you, what she said was just more evidence of how anti-Semitic America is.

    It’s almost as if you’re going to call America a bunch of anti-Semitic gentiles unless we do EVERYthing you (and your government) think we should do, up to and including nuking all of Islam and converting en masse to Judaism. Sorry, Ruvy, but humanity, morality, and righteous conduct before God don’t work that way.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Baronius, I’ve got to back up Ruvy re Armenia. Here in Fresno lives one of the oldest and most significant Armenian communities in the US, and I can assure you that they have not forgotten what the Turks did to their ancestors, and are at the forefront of those campaigning for reparations or for Turkey to at least acknowledge what it did.

  • Ruvy

    Ah, you’re back, Glenn.

    The hand of the Wahhabi extremists in Turkey does not need strengthening. Give Mohammed Gul and Recip Erdogan credit for hamstringing the secularist Muslims in Turkey most effectively. They came up with a brilliant strategy to secure the AKP in power – for as long as Turkey exists, anyway. And it is the Turks who are pursuing a strategy of war against Israel. Go check out my references to Debkafiles. This was planned out some time ago as a stratagem first to secure power for the AKP, and second to attempt to impose Turkish hegemony over the region.

    That is reality, and the truth is that there is already a covert war going on now between Israel and Turkey. Were it not for Barack Obama (this hurts to admit) we would have been at open war with Turkey since 30 May. Yep, you read right. According to Debkafiles, it was Obama who talked Erdogan out of going to war over a week ago.

    But he didn’t succeed all the way, and Erdogan is still itching to pull the trigger openly. We’re on the edge of war with a bully, and we cannot afford to back down – especially when faced with a bully. Only fifth columnist traitors in Tel Aviv think otherwise here. And they are a small minority.

    And the flotillas? They are just the crank to get the Model T of war chugging and on the road.

  • Ruvy

    Well, since you’re want to sing Helen Thomas’ praises, let me join you. I KNOW who Helen Thomas was because I WATCHED those press conferences with Kennedy. Her actions were just as much a shock to me as they were to a woman who viewed her as a role model when she was studying journalism in California 30 years ago – a woman who now runs a community radio station in Jerusalem.

    So what is the difference between Thomas, Nader, and Buchanan? Why should Buchanan and Nader get away with Jew hatred and Israel-hatred and Helen Thomas not? The answer is this.

    Ralph Nader is his own boss. Patrick Buchanan can pretty much write his own ticket as long as he stays away from the “N” word. If one network drops him, another will pick him up. But Helen Thomas was merely one of a whole slew of reporters, kind of like the eldest lady in the typing pool. That’s all she was – a Hearst employee. So nobody – neither Patrick Buchanan nor Ralph Nader – came to her rescue. That’s telling, isn’t it? Had Helen Thomas written her opinions in a memoir, it would have been a whole different ball game. But those 27 seconds have effectively written her memoir, haven’t they?

  • Ruvy

    Glenn, I’d go after the rest of your comment, but frankly I’m tired and it is nearly 02:00 here. Troublemakers like me need their sleep….

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Ruvy would have no idea about what’s Christian or not Christian. His religion is based on hate, the very antithesis of Christian values of love and charity.

    It’s a moot point as far as Ruvy is concerned.

    It’s time to let him go, to consign him to his own labyrinthine thought of delusion and fantasy.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And BTW, Dreadful, I’m certain ethnic animosities have a way of surviving. They never die out.

    So my question is, should we encourage such feelings or try to diffuse them?

    Sooner or later, we’re going to come to a point when all ethnic and national differences won’t matter. It’s the way of the world, and a better way, I daresay.

    So why encourage fanaticism rather than nip it at the bud. People like Ruvy are dinosaurs, about to expire, and the sooner the better. It’s for that reason and no other that I fight him and his mindset tooth and nail. He and his kind are obstacle to progress, to a better and more enlightened world. That’s why I’ll never sympathize with his old-world thinking. It’s a drawback. And that’s why I will never encourage him. In fact, I’ll do my best to trip him up, to make his voice inconsequential, irrelevant and mute.

    One’s got to kill the beast.

  • zingzing

    ruvy, the dinosaurs are already dead. they’re just too dumb to know it. no fascist death camps needed.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, do you have any news about the rumours going around that several of those shot on the Turkish boat were actually shot in the back, some more than once?

  • Irene Wagner

    As far as I can understand from the sources I’ve waded through, in that flotilla were true humanitarians (which the occupied of Gaza truly need) as well as those with an intent to do violence against IDF who defended ANY of Isreal’s territory.

    “They were humanitarians.” “No they weren’t.” “Yes they were.” “OK, some of them were, but ONLY some of them.”

    So I won’t pound on Ruvy exclusively because he’s no more wrong about this than anyone who digs in his heels on the opposite side of the “were they humanitarian?” fence.

    Ruvy, after you quoted from Deuteronomy 16
    tzedek, tzedek tirdof – justice, justice shall you pursue, I read the chapter for myself again, admittedly, NOT in Hebrew.

    Could you tell me where the Hebrew version you have in Deut.16 is different from the KJV in Deut 16? In my version, I don’t see a single reference to justice in terms of seeking vengeance in Deuteronomy 16.

    The English version of Deuteronomy 16 I am reading has THIS context for seeking justice:

    “REJOICE :) before the Lord thy God, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates, AND THE STRANGER, AND THE FATHERLESS, AND THE WIDOW, THAT ARE AMONG YOU…thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons [i.e.,have biases], neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous. That which is altogether just shalt thou follow, that thou mayest live, and inherit the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.”

    Ruvy, may God bless your land with men and women who understand justice in this way, may God bless the NATIONS with men and women who understand justice in this way, that you may live in peace in the land you have been given.

  • Ruvy

    Chris, the only news about this that I am aware of is that the IDF is doing a thorough investigation into what happened on 31 May. I’m sure that this issue will arise in context of soldiers who were unnecessarily put at risk.

  • Ruvy

    Irene, while I would translate some of your quote a little differently, the differences are not significant enough to matter in this instance. The judicial system contemplated in the Torah recognized families seeking justice against those who murdered their relatives.

    Your summary statement (and it is important to remember that it is a summary statement) comes after a system that allows families to seek justice. But also sets up cities of refuge, so that if a court determines that the alleged killer acted either without intent or accidentally, he could remain in that city of refuge until the high priest of the day died.

    At that point, his sentence for what we would call manslaughter will have been served, and he would be able to go free. After that point, if the originally aggrieved family were to pursue him, they would be guilty of murder.

  • Ruvy

    And Irene, thank you for your kind words.

  • Ruvy

    Ah yes, as for the flotillas. In the final analysis, they are the crank to get the Model T of war chugging. It is important to understand that those who are truly “humanitarian” in their intent who participate in these “flotillas” are mere useful idiots in the hands of terrorists and murderers, an the flotillas are a lame attempt to get world opinion against Israel in preparation for a massive attack on this country.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “that it is a summary statement) comes after a system that allows families to seek justice.”

    That alone is an indication of how archaic and barbaric the biblical system is.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Not much different from the mafia’s system of vendetta.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    Good morning!

    The hand of the Wahhabi extremists in Turkey does not need strengthening.

    But Israel’s actions strengthened them nonetheless, Ruvy. You don’t give the guy who wants to kill you MORE ammunition to kill you with! That’s what I’ve been trying to tell you all along!

  • Ruvy

    Good evening, Glenn,

    I see you are not paying attention, Glenn. There was already a covert war going on before the “flotilla” charade, and Erdogan wanted to use the expected reaction to his terrorists trying to break our blockade as an excuse to go to war altogether.

    Obama talked him out of it – sort of.

    This covert war continues with Israelis in Kurdistan training Kurdi commandos to hit inside Turkey, and a raid on the port of Iskendrun.

    Stop looking at the blown up balloon image of Arab bullshit and look at the man behind the curtain pulling the strings!

  • Ruvy

    I’m certain ethnic animosities have a way of surviving. They never die out.

    So my question is, should we encourage such feelings or try to diffuse them?

    Sooner or later, we’re going to come to a point when all ethnic and national differences won’t matter. It’s the way of the world, and a better way, I daresay.

    So why encourage fanaticism rather than nip it at the bud. People like Roger are dinosaurs, about to expire, and the sooner the better. It’s for that reason and no other that I fight him and his mindset tooth and nail. He and his kind are obstacle to progress, to a better and more enlightened world. That’s why I’ll never sympathize with his old-world thinking. It’s a drawback. And that’s why I will never encourage him. In fact, I’ll do my best to trip him up, to make his voice inconsequential, irrelevant and mute.

    One’s got to kill the beast.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thanks for copying and pasting, Ruvy.

    I’m glad you have seen it fit to use my form of argument and turn it against me. It only shows my argument was cogent and sound to begin with if it’s capable of many applications.

    Indeed, therein lies the crux of the matter. You, a deeply religious and God-fearing man espouse hatred and the way of violence; I, on the other hand, who don’t share those high pretension, look to the future when enmity and ethnic strife will be no longer.

    Ironic indeed!

  • Irene Wagner

    ROGER NOWOSIELSKI, did you leave Bible School before the professor covered GOEL and its relationship to the blood of Him you may have at one time called Redeemer?

    Numbers 35:9-34, describes the role of kinsman redeemer, and the Bible’s explicit limitations of that role. The kinsman redeemer had a biblical duty to exact the death penalty on his relative’s murderer if he met him face to face, NOT if he were lying in wait for him and “offed” him in vengeful malice, mafia-style (Numbers 35:v.19-21 answering your #45), and NEVER in a city of refuge where the accused (innocent or guilty in an attempt to at least delay the inevitable) fled to await trial. You are quite mistaken, friend.

  • Irene Wagner

    Ruvy: Gotta learn Hebrew for myself one day! Having your assurance, though, that the KJV is a relatively faithful translation of the letter and spirit of the original Hebrew, I continue, with your indulgence, my questioning of your claim that Deuteronomy 16 defines justice, in part or in whole, as vengeance on one’s enemies.

    By the way, I’m happy you perceived my words to you and Israel as the sincere blessing that they were meant to be. I translated the CONDITIONAL promise given to Israel at the end of Deuteronomy 16 directly into a blessing and prayer for you and your people.

    Back to the subject of vengeance. Israeli vengeance (which is happening in Gaza) is NOT the same thing as Israeli self-defense (which is happening in Jerusalem). Israel has every right to self-defense, no right at all to vengeance.

    Didn’t Simeon and Levi take vengeance on the Shechemites, and wasn’t that why the blessing they could have had from their father on his deathbed a curse instead?

    Genesis: 5 Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations 6 O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.”

    The reflection of God’s justice that the Jews were expected to manifest to the nations was, according to Deuteronomy 16, characterized by fair and in fact LOVING treatment of the helpless (v11): the stranger (modern-day residents of Gaza, who, unlike some residents of Gaza, are nonviolent?), the fatherless, and the widow. In particular, this righteousness aspect of God’s character was to be manifest through the judges and officers of Israel (v.18-20). Cities of refuge and goel, both of which are biblically mandated elsewhere, neither of which condone vengeance, are not mentioned in this chapter.

    Sincere and continued prayers for the peace of Jerusalem come from me and my friends, Ruvy, more now than ever. I’ve got stuff to do now. Shalom.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Sorry, Irene. It’s still archaic and barbarian, however much a prevailing practice in parts of the Middle East.

    And no, I don’t condone it as a universal practice, as something to recommend itself just because it’s in the Bible.

    That’s where we part company.

  • Irene Wagner

    You are mistaken still, Roger Nowosielski. I don’t condone it as a universal practice. Neither does the Bible.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    If you’re not condoning it, then what is it exactly that you’re doing? Providing me with the historical context in terms of which such a practice was not only acceptable but functional as well.

    I don’t need that kind of help, especially since I never questioned it’s one-time validity.

  • Ruvy

    Thank you Irene, for paying attention. Now, when you have time to read this, I’ll ask you to pay closer attention.

    In my original article on the flotilla being stopped, I linked to what reality is in Gaza, as opposed to what the mass media liars are telling you. Now, Gaza is not exactly a rich suburb of Boise, but the inhabitants are not starving. It is policy in this country to see to it that nobody starves, and in spite of the fact that the Gazans could arguably be called enemy combatants, they are not allowed to starve. There is an adequate stock of medicines, water, oil, gas, and other requirements of living.

    But Gaza is at war with us, by its own admission, and its de-facto government has every intention, if it can, of killing us all off. So, we blockade the place, to see to it that long range missiles do not enter. This is not an act of vengeance, it is an act of defending Tel Aviv, particularly the rich suburbs where the traitors who ruin this nation live.

    Hamas, the de-facto government there, has refused the aid from the ships of the “flotilla”. But that is besides the point. They are targeted by the Israeli government, not because they are enemies, but as enemies, they believe in “kill first, loot later” – which means in practical terms, no deals with corrupt Israeli politicians always willing to cut a deal – even with an enemy.

    We’re talking about the Middle East, Irene, and in this part of the world, business trumps nearly all – except when you insist on killing your enemy first and looting later.

    By contrast, the PLO was willing to loot first – in other words, cut a deal where both Israeli and Arab politicians could steal from the coffers and have more money – and kill later. And that is why the Israeli politicians are willing to talk to this terrorist in a suit, Abu Mazen.

    The Israeli politicians had a great relationship with Arafat – because Arafat was always willing to cut a deal where some corrupt Israeli politician could make money. Let’s look at this just a bit differently. All those euros and dollars that went to “Palestine” got siphoned off to Arab politicians and their Israeli partners. Only after Arafat went over the line with the attack on a Seder in Netanya did the Israelis decide on vengeance – a slow poison that would extend the scum’s life and prolong the money to be made off deals with him.

    That’s how politics work here.

    I don’t know if you noticed the absence of certain terms in this particular posting. They are “G-d”, “justice”, “righteousness”, “the Tana”kh”, “the Qur’an” and “honesty”. What I’ve described to you sickens me, as a Jew. But if I lie to you, I’m liable to read the lies later and think I told the truth. I cannot afford to deceive myself, Irene. So, I cannot afford to deceive you.

  • Ruvy

    By the way, the difference between the KJV version of the Bible and the original Hebrew is the difference between a delicately spiced and delicious soup (the KJV) and a strong, a very strong, cup of coffee. I prefer the coffee….

    Therefore there are serious differences between the majestic work of prose and poetry that is the KJV, and the majestic but blunt Hebrew that is the original test.

  • Ruvy

    This is a dose of reality, as opposed to the garbage you get from CNN/MSNBC/CBS/HuffPo/NYT/BBC/CBC/AFP/AP – did I leave any letters out?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Isn’t life wonderful?

    Let’s all settle in the Gaza strip and enjoy the rest of our lives.

  • Irene Wagner

    Is it a short memory you have, Roger Nowosielski, or are you assuming that MY memory is so short, or that there is so much real estate between your comments #44 #45 and your #54 that you will be able to get away with it?

    As someone who tries to find the good in people, as I have succeeded in doing, I might add, with you, Roger Nowosielski, :) I will assume the discrepancy is due to your short memory.

  • Irene Wagner

    RUVY, I appreciate the honesty and care you put into your responses to me, now and in the past.

    You may have overheard me talking to Roger Nowosielski, Cindy, and MarkTheErswhileTroll about my “warrior vs. medic” struggles.

    There are some who are so far to the end of one spectrum or the other that the legitimate motivations of their counterparts will never, ever resonate with them, or at most, will do so fleetingly.

    Though not everyone who claims to fill them legitimately is, in fact, doing so, I think I have concluded…that the warrior and medic roles are both legitimate ways of addressing evil, two diametrically opposed approaches. Is this legitimacy misunderstood by the strategists of the Hegelian dialectic, creating tension between the current predominant philosophies in order to extinguish unified resistance to the revolution?

    Those who DO legitimately fill them must work to better the world as if Messiah’s arrival were eons away, not counting on a Deus ex Machina to fix that which they themselves are called upon by God to fix. Not even your strongest opponents could accuse you of doing that, Ruvy, and I hope I’m not doing that either.

    The hope that we both share, disagreeing as we do on so many things, Ruvy, but agreeing on this essential point: one day Messiah WILL be back to fight that most resistant evil that not even the hardest-working medics and warriors have been able to put down. In that day, even they will realize how imperfectly they have fulfilled their roles, and weep (Zechariah 12:9-13:1)…but then he will wipe away their tears…and the Season of Rejoicing will begin.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com roger nowosielski

    My question to you, Irene, was in earnest. It wasn’t due to any shortness in memory. It was in the nature of probing.

    If you can’t come up with a respectable answer, so be it. I’m quite content to live with it.

  • Irene Wagner

    Roger Nowosielski, if the first sentence of #54 was a rhetorical question, the second sentence of #54 was the correct answer to it.

    If you are reading this comment, then we can at least say A(kis)met and the human comments editor on duty considered it respectable. And I bid you good day.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com roger nowosielski

    Well, I’m glad you’ve finally figured it out.

  • Irene Wagner

    It’s the THIRD sentence of #54 that continues to mystify.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, I’m not sure that the IDF is the best organization to investigate what the IDF did on that boat, nor have they displayed much capacity for thoroughness in recent years…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, Irene, if it wasn’t the case that you were drawing my attention to the historical context, than I shouldn’t have presumed.

    But in that case, what was the point of your remark?

  • Irene Wagner

    *bangs forehead on desk repeatedly*

  • Ruvy

    Chris,

    While you may be right that the IDF may not be the best investigators, at least they will not be biased against Jews from the gitgo. And we do not owe interfering outsiders who want us destroyed (like the UN or the EU) the opportunity to do any more damage to the IDF than the US has in making it dependent on its equipage.

    We are already at war, a covert war that may break out into a hot shooting war or not in the near future.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    Yes, go live in Gaza! You, too, can experience how to run a farm without irrigation piping, without repair parts for your tractor, without wood, iron, or concrete…or seeds! You, too, can find out what it’s like to raise kids without musical instruments, writing instruments, notebooks, or size A4 paper.

    All these are currently prohibited by the Israeli government from being brought into the Gaza strip, you see.

    But you can rejoice because now, after a three-year ban, you can now bring candy into the Gaza strip. The Israeli government in a moment of true liberality figured that candy (and dried fruit (but NOT fresh meat)) could now be brought into the Gaza strip since it no longer presented a threat to the security of the nation of Israel.

    I’ve got more details in an upcoming article.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t care about any of that, Glenn. I’m enticed by vignettes of the internet-cafe life, singing and dancing, and the Arabian nights atmosphere. Unfortunately, can’t afford a plane ticket.

    But Ruvy can surely get there by bus, which raises a question. If life is that great, what is he waiting for?

  • Ruvy

    But Ruvy can surely get there by bus, which raises a question. If life is that great, what is he waiting for?

    I could get there by bus, and life is that great – if you are a Wahhabi [edited] who loves to kill Jews. If you are a woman, a child, an (Arab) Christian, a person who believes in peace, a person who wants to have a decent family life, life isn’t that great. And that is why I don’t take the bus to Gaza. I’ll let you see if you can figure it why.

    When our soldiers clear out the terrorists [edited] – or when the local Arabs do it on their own – I’m not fussy – I ‘ll think about going to Gaza. In the mean-time, I’ll enjoy not going to Gaza. I’ll probably stay away from the left wing [edited] in Tel Aviv, too. I like the cafe life in Jerusalem, though – there’s a better class of Jew there….

  • Ruvy

    BTW Glenn,

    Cite your sources on the restricted list for Gaza. If it’s the UN, Hamas, the PA, the “media”, or any of the lying trash that continually slime Jews, it’s not worth the time of day. If, by contrast, it is the IDF or the ISRAELI Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I’ll give it a look.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, it’s when you go straight off the deep end into the swimming pool of paranoid fantasy that you lose me and, I suspect, the majority of people.

    You may not care but it is simply stupid and just a little bonkers to assert that the UN and the EU want you destroyed.

    As to being at war, covert or otherwise, that’s a situation easily remedied but Israel has never shown the slightest serious interest in imposing a just peace agreement which, as the dominant economic and military power in the region, it could so easily do.

    Of course, that would involve a little maturity and realism, two qualities neither it nor you display…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Interesting dilemma, Dreadful or Chris, whoever is in charge in this unseemly hour.

    You’re letting the voice of fanaticism have its full sway while rebuking efforts to keep it in check.

    If I’m not being subtle enough, just tell mo so.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    just let me know …

    correcting the garbled sentence.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “If you are a woman,”

    not ruvy

    “a child,”

    not ruvy

    “an (Arab) Christian,”

    not ruvy

    “a person who believes in peace,”

    not ruvy

    “a person who wants to have a decent family life,”

    possibly ruvy, but i don’t see how this doesn’t apply to gazans, and ruvy seems keen on the idea of throwing his family into a warzone. i’m sure a vast majority of them would like to do just that.

    “life isn’t that great.”

    poor ruvy.

  • zingzing

    actually, sounds like ruvy should go visit. he could go visit without his family. just a little day trip. get the grand tour. it’ll be fun, i’m sure. because life is great there, it seems.

  • zingzing

    then again, given his current state of mind, he’d probably have too much of a blast.

    get it? get it? hahaha. i laughed… fuck you all. mutter, mutter.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Okay. Yea women!

  • zingzing

    ha, cindy shows up right on time. bad roger. bad.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    80 was to 78

    Good thing men hold women in esteem. I would never have suspected a man who calls himself a ‘progressive’??? or what do you call yourself? of failing to do so.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    He should revisit some great sights in Israel, the sea of Galilee, Rothschild’s Gardens, Ashkelon, Bethlehem, Nazareth, some holy sights. I’ve been there, zing, and it’s mind-boggling.

    Plus, you’re in a Mediterranean climate, like in Greece. Azure skies, sandy beaches, water as green as the eye can see. Corral reefs at your fingertips.

    He does live in paradise, yet his life is constant hell.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, let’s put it this way. There is Ruvy and the rest of the world.

    Does a phrase, “a wandering Jew,” becomes pregnant with meaning?

    You bet – as long as there are Ruvys in this world!

  • zingzing

    roger: “He does live in paradise.”

    i dunno if i’d quite call it paradise. too dry, at least during the summer–my lips would crack and my nose would bleed… that’s what it is to be southern… the atmosphere tells you you aren’t wanted. yet, at least i guess, it’s not like the south pacific what with the bugs and all. every paradise does have its problems, i guess. israel’s happen to be more than insect or climate-based.

  • zingzing

    oh, cindy… don’t take it too literally. men love and hate women, just as women love and hate men. there are things about women that drive me up a wall, but i wouldn’t change any of it. just as, i’m sure, there are things about men that you couldn’t abide until they were gone.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    They’ve solved the irrigation problem, zing. The desert is brutal – 120 degrees and more, no chance of a breeze. It’s like being in the oven, no relief in sight. And you can be in the back of a pickup truck and you won’t experience any relief.

    Even so, the sights are unforgettable. It’s like being transported to another world.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    If that island from Lord of the Flies was inhabited with other than modern man there would be a different outcome. There can be none if it is inhabited with the likes of the average here.

  • zingzing

    he’s just trying to get into a conversation about misogyny now, cindy. can’t you see it happening?

  • zingzing

    gah. you two been fighting recently?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    sorry zing, but someone is paying for all that misogynistic pornography, and someone is bending men toward whatever view the think has sales value.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Biological differences aside, I’d think a human being is a human being, irrespective of gender.

    I was hoping, however, we were having fun at Ruvy’s expense. And in his highness’s case, resorting to stereotypes served a useful purpose.

    And so my question is – why is this discussion evolving into political philosophy, just as feminism? I thought we were having fun, again, at Ruvy’s expense. Or perhaps you think that having that kind of fun is a symptom of white male domination? Just wonder.

    Must we move on at this point in time from a softball to hardball? And if softball is always offensive, what kind of life do you envisage really? Not being able to laugh at stereotypes but always remaining dead serious?

    On this short or not so short a note, let me retire. Perhaps you and zing can come to an equitable resolution. I’ve had it.

    Manana.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I have seen posters my nephew has diplyed that are clearly antifemale.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I would not have fun at Ruvy’s expense. I think Ruvy has a certain amount of understanding on this issue.

  • zingzing

    cindy, i tell you that i don’t look at pornography because i hate women. certainly, certainly not. woof. not at all… exact opposite.

    (that said, i won’t deny that there is a strain of misogyny in porn. but that’s the last thing i’m thinking about.)

    and i don’t pay for it because it’s FREEEEEEEE! also, i’ve known plenty of women that like porn. it’s fun stuff. take it for what it is, i guess. generally, it’s not something worth getting worked up about, although there are types of porn that i can’t abide. we all have our proclivities, but some people are just sick. but i’m not one to judge. if the performers enjoy it, and those watching it enjoy it, whatever. let it be.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Are we to pretend nothing is happening, and nothing is a problem???

  • zingzing

    also, i love the fact that ruvy’s thread has turned into a discussion on porn. getting of on it right now. that fact. not porn. jeez. short for jesus. christ. oh oh oh oh.

  • zingzing

    cindy. porn is porn. it’s always existed, it always will. try to get rid of it all you want, it won’t happen. try to reign in the stuff people are after, it will always expand. sexuality has been liberalized. it’s only going to get worse, at least in some senses.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    zing, i know you don’t look at pornography because you hate women…

    I like you zing…I like Roger. I could not like either of you if I thought you were intentional misogynists.

  • zingzing

    oh okay, cindy (here i’m only half serious), do i only hate women unintentionally?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    zing –

    also, i love the fact that ruvy’s thread has turned into a discussion on porn

    Your healthy sense of irony is one of the reasons you’re one of my favorite BC regulars.

  • zingzing

    glenn–“one of” ??? i’m by far the best.

    NONE OF YOU CAN CHALLENGE ME. I AM THE GREATEST HUMAN THAT HAS EVER TROD THE SHORES OF THE INTERNET. i come, i see, i concur with those i agree with.

    flattery will get you nowhere with such as i, zingzing, glenn.

    i have spoken. believe it.

  • Ruvy

    The United States government is again out to destabilize this regime in Israel.

    For my money, it is time for Netanyahu to tell the United States to go to hell, and launch pre-emptive strikes on Turkish Cyprus, Iskendrun, with air raids on Ankara and Istanbul. This should be coordinated with missile attacks on Persia and most particularly on Lebanon, accompanied by heavy air raids on Damascus to reduce it rubble. If nukes are needed, they should be used. This should all be done before 20 June. If the Turkish premier is on a flotilla boat, it should be bombed and sunk. Erdogan should be killed.

    It is unlikely that either Netanyahu or Barak will be willing to contemplate such things at all, even though they are necessary for the defence of the country. The reason? Netanyahu is the poodle of the Rockefeller Foundation, which got him started in politics, and Barak is the poodle of Hillary Clinton, as Bill Clinton got him elected prime minister in the late 1990’s. Both are traitors to Israel.

  • Ruvy

    This Arab news source raises the possibility that Rahm Emanuel is going to try a palace coup against Netanyahu. It reminds readers that it was James Carville, who got Clinton elected, who went to Israel to get Barak elected for his first disastrous term. It contemplates the possibility of a repeat performance in the near future with Obama getting credit for putting a pliable yes-man (the real meaning of the phrase “team player”) in as prime minister.

    One hopes that Netanyahu understands this, and does what is necessary to secure his regime against left wing traitors – but I cannot foresee Netanyahu turning his back on his “rabbis” at the Rockefeller Foundation. That makes him as much of a traitor as Barak is.

    But, I could be wrong. Miracles can happen.

  • Ruvy

    Tip to Barry Chamish for the Palestine Chronicle quote.

  • Ruvy

    Looking at Barry Chamish’s analysis on all of this got me thinking. He cited the Samson Blinded Blog, which offers a somewhat darker view of all this, and offers it from an entirely different perspective – the one far closer to the one I usually take in viewing the Israeli government and its actions. This is put by a man who is no namby-pamby leftist or peacenik.

    in his comments you find all the standard anti-Israel memes about piracy on the high seas, etc., etc. But the money lines comes at the end of his analysis.

    The world was also surprisingly prepared. Germany, unwilling to see Jews return to Bavaria, is normally our staunch ally. Yet, the German PM condemned Israel immediately, though the Marines acted in self-defense. The French, Italians, and nearly everyone else followed suit immediately, though the casualties, even if inflicted on peace-loving civilians, were minuscule by anyone’s standards—certainly by the standards of the NATO countries fighting in Afghanistan. Completely ignored was the fact that the ‘peaceniks’ attacked the Marines rather than vice-versa.??

    Obama is a special case. His honey-sweet invitation to Netanyahu was immediately suspect. Okay, Obama needed to repair his relations with America’s Jewish community, but what is the point of a hollow meeting? Obama can remove his feet from the table while speaking with Netanyahu, but he will still be pressing the Jewish state to abandon Jerusalem and live with a nuclear Iran—not a big deal, indeed, since a life like that wouldn’t be long. Then, conveniently, came the Gaza flotilla debacle, and the scheduled meeting was abandoned. Instead, the US State Department joined the chorus of international condemnation of Israel. Tell me that Obama did not know about the impending debacle.

    Such string of operational errors in a simple intercept could have happened on its own – in which case, the government is guilty of criminal stupidity. More likely, Israeli leftist establishment framed Netanyahu.

    ??The last time there was such a provocation against Netanyahu’s government, it cost us Hebron. Let’s see what concessions they ask for this time.

  • Mark

    They’ve solved the irrigation problem, zing.

    guffaw…

  • Jordan Richardson

    On the legality of the Gaza blockade, Yousef Munayyer notes that the blockade is not sanctioned by international law or the San Remo Manual.

    Yousef Munayyer writes for The Jerusalem Fund, an American non-profit organization dedicated to investing in the “potential of the Palestinian people,” so readers should be aware of the context of the source as they assess the facts within.

  • zingzing

    it’s just porn, ruvy. you puritan freaks are always the ones who go for the nasty stuff. ALWAYS. you give yourself away…

  • Ruvy

    If the following article is true, then it illustrates the servility and worthlessness of both Netanyahu and Barak. It also confirms my belief that Netanyahu is not being “set up” by Barak at all. Netanyahu is the pretend premier – and Barak is the White House bag-man, the real boss.

    White House rejected Israeli intel, blocked use of anti-riot gear against flotilla.

    From the article: Diplomatic sources said the White House rejected Israeli intelligence assessments that the six-ship flotilla contained weapons and Islamist fighters trained to resist any boarding operation. The sources, privy to Israeli-U.S. government communications, said Obama and his leading aides pressed Israel against any act that would be deemed excessive force.

    “The White House demanded that Israel exercise extreme caution and restraint in any scenario,” a diplomatic source said.

  • Irene Wagner

    Ruvy, the US’s “official” read “public” position on Israel follows seems to follow an erratic pattern, but its all a part of the same sine wave. Back them up militarily, and you can demand things from them later. That’s the way to control a region.

    I heard the name of one of my heroes on another thread. It’ll take two minutes and fifty-nine seconds of your life to get it straight from the Dark Hores’s mouth, Ruvy, and dollars to donuts says you’ll find–everyone who voted for OBAMA will find–a lot more to agree with than to disagree with.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And your point, Irene, is . . .

  • Irene Wagner

    Ruvy probably understands that I was responding to his: “The White House demanded that Israel exercise extreme caution and restraint in any scenario,” a diplomatic source said.”

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m not concerned with Ruvy’s understanding or misunderstanding.

    I was asking you to comment on Ron Paul’s video.

  • Irene Wagner

    Ask away, but don’t expect an answer. I DO think Ruvy deserves to be taken seriously. Jews and Palestinians both do.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Whether he does or does not is not at issue. Do you agree with Ron Paul’s assessment?

  • Irene Wagner

    I’s be inclined to ask “Which of Ron Paul’s assessments do YOU agree with Roger, his assessment that Gaza is like a concentration camp, or his assessment that the U.S. involvement has and is aggravating the situation?” if I hadn’t just told you not to expect an answer.

  • Irene Wagner

    Yes I’s would.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The latter of course.

    Whether Gaza is a “concentration camp” is for some to argue and for others to dispute.

  • John Wilson

    Looks like the Israeli military rulers are trying to drive a wedge between the USA and Turkey, perhaps thinking that the USA would be more dependent on Israel with Turkey alienated. Bad idea: Israel has been a fitful ally, having shot up the USS Liberty and killed 34 sailors, relentlessly placed spies in the US government, bribed and threatened congressmen continuously, etc. Probably stole the ABomb secrets from us.

    Who needs the Israelis? A mere 7million against Turkeys 75million. And Turkey at least tries to stay free of voodoo religious influence.

  • arabmuslim

    There is no democracy in Israel as a state is illegitimate and illegal and not recognized
    Evidence of this if anyone wanted to write a comment in the Israeli websites
    Does not allow him or be there are many obstacles to prevent him from writing a comment The reasons for Arab-Israeli conflict is the occupation of Palestine in 1948.
    Palestine Arab Islamic state like the rest of the Arab and Islamic states surrounding
    Them. Means that there are Jews and Zionists in Palestine a big mistake, because this entity
    Zionist is not consistent with the surrounding area (such as language, customs, traditions and religion)
    The only solution to end the Arab-Israeli conflict is the expulsion of Jews from Palestine
    All of Palestine. The Jewish people will not rest and will not feel comfortable and stability
    But if it gets out of Palestine and the Middle East completely. If people continue to
    Jews in Palestine and the Middle East, the death and destruction will continue.
    Palestine Arab Islamic state and will remain

  • Ruvy

    Oh, my! More false accusations, lies and demands for our death. Okay, “arabmuslim”, make my day! You want to try to drive me out of my home? You won’t last until sunset. My neighbors will have to stop ME from doing you in. They may not.

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