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New Reasons I’m Glad I Don’t Live in Britain

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I have fond memories of living in Britain when I was a teen and then again when I was in graduate school. But the more news I read coming from the Sceptered Isle, the more convinced I am that it will forever remain a great place to vacation, but not a place I’d ever want to live again for the long term. It seems like every time they solve one of their problems they come up with some new bad idea to embrace as a nation.

The 70s was the era of raging socialism and prohibitive taxes, when the wealthy classes who are the backbone of any successful society were driven out of the country or forced into genteel poverty by a government so grasping and rapacious that at one point they were taxing 90% of the annual income of their wealthiest citizens. Margaret Thatcher put an end to that era of horrors, but the cost of her pro-business and entrepreneurial reforms was the high unemployment, race riots and increasing political divisiveness of the 1980s.

The backlash against Thatcher led to the rise of New Labour with its soft socialism, internationalist agenda and a willingness to sell out British autonomy for the modern equivalent of a handful of magic beans. The Blair era has produced and inevitable backlash of its own in the form of a new conservatism which has had both positive and negative effects.

On the plus side there has been a resurgence of resistence to the dictates of the European Union, a political environment which has made it difficult to roll back tax reforms, and even a new legitimacy for discussion of the possibility of lifting restrictions on gun ownership.

But the down side of rising conservatism is a combination of statism and nationalism which is so troubling that I doubt I could ever live in Britain again.

Here in the United States groups like the KKK and the White Aryan Party are looked on as political jokes in bad taste. Even their sanitized frontman David Dukes can’t win a significant amount of support in a local or regional election. Not so in Britain, where the fastest rising political force is the British National Party, a successor of the old National Front which offers a cleaner, more positive version of nazism for Britain’s future.

The BNP isn’t exactly on the verge of taking over the country, but they can attract significant numbers of votes in local elections, beating out the Conservative and Liberal parties in many cases, and even got 6% of the vote in a recent election for representatives to the EU parliament. They’ve actually gotten 24 members elected to significant local government postions, using a strategy of focusing their efforts on communities which have intense racial divisions.

And make no mistake, the BNP may be kindler, gentler nazis, but they’re still nazis. They deny the holocaust, promote a policy of repatriating all foreign immigrants going back two generations, and believe in a policy of racial separation. But at the same time, they put at the forefront of their platform much more attractive ideas which actually have some broad appeal. They support the return of corporal and capital punishment which makes some sense with the rapidly rising crime rate in Britain. They support withdrawing from the European Union which always attracts some adherents. They also favor a Swiss-style universal national service program. And strangely they’re big supporters of industrial collectivism and organic farming.

The leader of the BNP is the charismatic, articulate and somewhat creepy Nick Griffin. He’s very good at presenting their ideas while downplaying the crazier aspects and making them sound perfectly reasonable. He hasn’t been terribly successful in his personal political ambitions, but he’s provided an effective national voice for the party which has certainly helped put others in office. Interestingly under the charter of the BNP he holds total power in the organization with complete personal control over finances and policies, just like a little dictator.

While the BNP is certainly bad enough, they aren’t in any real danger of taking over the country and turning it into an authoritarian state. But do they even need to when in reaction to them and Britain’s strong tradition of racial tension, the established government has instituted policies which are more appropriate to a police state than the free society from which the great democracies of the west descend?

Right now BNP leader Nick Griffin is on trial under a 1986 hate speech law for making negative comments about Islam in a speech to a small group of supporters in Leeds in 2004. He is one of 12 people arrested in connection with a BBC documentary in which his speech was reproduced. The main statements the case revolves around are his comment that Islam is a “wicked, vicious faith” and that it was inevitable that Britain would be bombed by terrorists who would “probably turn out to be second generation Pakistanis from somewhere like Bradford” who would “blast the hell out of London tube trains and buses.” Note that these comments were made a year before the London subway bombings, making him a prophet of sorts.

The scary part of this is not Griffin’s statements so much as the possibility that he might serve time in jail for making them. Here in the United States even our most extreme hate crime legislation wouldn’t result in someone being brought to trial for making general negative comments about a religion or the association of certain groups with terrorism. I can walk down the street all day long shouting that Moslems are terrorists and no one is going to arrest me, not just because it’s at least partially true, but because we have the right to have opinions and state them under the law.

As far back as the American Revolution their free speech restrictions were a bone of contention. Over the years Britain has developed increasingly severe restrictions on free speech that might be construed as racist or provocative to the point where they are now prosecuting people on the basis that any mildly racist or stereotypical statement is considered an incitement to violence, even when not one word is said about doing violence or taking any kind of action. And the Public Order Act of 1986 is just one step in the progression. Parliament is currently considering an even more comprehensive Racial and Religious Hatred law which might go so far as to make race or religion based comedy or satire illegal.

The real problem with putting Griffin on trial, above and beyond the free speech issue, is that it goes a long way towards legitimizing him as a political figure and a martyr. It gives him a real cause for outrage which people who don’t necessarily share his racial views can identify with. As a champion of racial separation his audience was limited. As a champion of free speech he could have a lot more people listening to him and taking him seriously. The situation is made even worse by the fact that his racist statements turned out to be almost exactly true as a prediction of the London subway bombings. In the eyes of many that turns him from a racist to a prophet.
If he ultimately get convicted he will receive the ultimate endorsement of martyrdom which will make him a hero to every person who resents the power of government whether they agree with his specific beliefs or not. It’s disturbingly difficult not to sympathize with them at least within this limited context.

Griffin and one of his co-defendents are blogging their trial as it goes on and doing their best to make it into a real circus, taking advantage of the sensationalist British media to generate a lot of publicity. There’s also some excellent discussion of the issue from a more balanced perspective on The Pub Philosopher.

The Griffin trial and the way that the BNP is capitalizing on it to make themselves look more legitimate at the expense of the government is a perfect example of why laws restricting free speech are a terrible mistake in a free society. Such laws breed resentment, are easily abused by ideologues and the over-zealous and have the potential to turn on those they were originally designed to protect. Prosecuting Griffin may seem appealing to those who don’t like his beliefs, but the ultimate price will likely be more racism and more power for the BNP.

I used to daydream about moving back to Britain with my kids, but it’s looking less and less appealing all the time.

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About Dave Nalle

Dave Nalle is Executive Director of the Texas Liberty Foundation, Chairman of the Center for Foreign and Defense Policy, South Central Regional Director for the Republican Liberty Caucus and an advisory board member at the Coalition to Reduce Spending. He was Texas State Director for the Gary Johnson Presidential campaign, an adviser to the Ted Cruz senatorial campaign, Communications Director for the Travis County Republican Party and National Chairman of the Republican Liberty Caucus. He has also consulted on many political campaigns, specializing in messaging. Before focusing on political activism, he owned or was a partner in several businesses in the publishing industry and taught college-level history for 20 years.
  • Having chosen to live in Britain Dave, I have to say that I don’t recognise the country you are portraying. I’m not sure where the BNP as the “fastest rising political force” came from, but I’d suggest that the party deserving that label is the Green Party – expecting to get around 100 councillors elected in coming local government elections in May, when the BNP might get a couple. I’ll give you credit in saying that while I doubt you’d like anything much about the Greens, I think you’d agree they’d be preferable to the BNP.

  • You’ve got the right idea there, Dave. As someone who’s stuck in Britain himself, I urge you to stay away if you can. This place is f—ed up. Court judges here make American federal judges look like disciples of Russell Kirk. Four teenagers “happy slapped” a man to death two years ago for the fun of it and got charged with manslaughter. Not muder, manslaughter. Crime is through the roof here. And absolutely nothing is being done about it. Even the police don’t care, having admitted defeat years ago.

    This is one reason why whenever I talk with Americans, and they say “Oh, lucky you, living in England,” I want to bitch slap them. LUCKY?! I’d move back to Boston in a heartbeat if only I could.

  • The BNP are “the fastest growing political force in Britain”, are they? I don’t think even the BNP actually believes that. Their 6% in the European Elections was a blip – the low standing of the European Parliament in many people’s eyes throws up rogue results like this (comedy chatshow host Robert Kilroy Silk won a seat with a single-issue party; at the General Election), the BNP polled a mighty 0.74% nationwide, and lost its deposits in 84 seats. If that’s how you define a coming force, it’s presumably only a matter of time before you tell the world that the UK is about to have its first Yogic Flying administration.

    Likewise, your claim that “[t]hey’ve actually gotten 24 members elected to significant local government postions” links to a 2003 news story – nice to see the BBC News Online layout before last again, though. Between you and me, having a seat on a local council is hardly “a significant local government position.” It’s a minor role – the power in local councils comes through being the largest party; the BNP have never come close to that.

  • Felix Evans

    “They support the return of corporal and capital punishment which makes some sense with the rapidly rising crime rate in Britain.”

    Firstly, even careful studies have failed to come up with conclusive evidence that the death penalty deters criminals. Most murders/homicides are committed in the heat of the moment, as such the possible punishments do not occur to the killer. There is even evidence that the introduction of the death penalty may actually increase the murder rate (Bedau).
    Secondly and more importantly in this case perhaps, is that the death penalty is unlikely to be administered fairly. In the U.S, the death penalty is generally used for people who kill white victims, 84% of the victims of those executed were white. Now who do you think the BNP is going to be executing?
    The BNP are nothing more than thugs in suits, preying on the disillusioned and mis-informed. If you read their policies page, it sounds as though they intend to turn Britain into some sort of utopia, cut off from the rest of the world. How many people in their party would actually have the intelligence, knowledge and skills to do this?

    Also, I fail to see what crime is committed by saying the Islam is a ‘wicked, vicious faith’. Although I do not agree with him, I find it very worrying that he or any of us could be tried simply for expressing an opinion.

  • Hmmm…

    I was able to recognize the judges in your article, and in MEM’s comments. I was able to recognize the Bolshevik attitude towards freedom of speech. It’s one of the problems you can have without a written constitution.

    And believe it or not, I was very much able to recognize the attraction towards industrial collectivism and organic farming. That (and expelling unwanted immigrants) most looks like Nazism to me, based on what I remember of their ideas of purity and building prosperity.

  • Dave

    Even if the BNP are not the fastest growing party in Britain, they are still the 4th biggest the greens don’t even feature.
    despite your negative slant on the bnp and calling them nazis,if you actually read the BNP manifesto it will clearly show that most of your negativity is based on left wing media coverage. the true nazi fascists are those in power today with the continued oppression of the rights and liberties of the people of this once great land.
    Attempting to snuff out all political opposition was once reserved to the likes of Zimbarbwi and other despot states in africa, alas its now rife in Britain.

  • Dave,

    Is there really such a thing as “kinder, gentler nazis”? Sounds like something out of “Springtime for Hitler” in The Producers .

    My old haunt was Russell Square in London back in the early 80s. I’ve always wanted to go back, but I think now more than anything that scares me is the threat of terrorism (but that bothers me here in NYC too).

  • jimbo

    The UK used to have blasphemy laws, maybe they still do. In theory, you could get in trouble for criticizng Christianity or at least the Church of England. I think this crackdown on religious hatred is also related to Northern Ireland where Ian Paisley used to make outrageous statements about the Catholic Church, which certainly didn’t help matters. The issue here is the unwisdom of prosecuting Griffin, especially given his eerily prophetic statement about July 7th. Everywhere in the world there are stupid laws on the books that were put there by grandstanding politicians. Usually officials have the good sense not to enforce those laws. Maybe that is what is wrong with Britain?

  • Agatha Worzel

    Why oh why do we keep calling these muslims from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan ‘Asians’ They are not Asians. Asians are people from China and Japan – its a pathetic state of affairs that we British Citizens are suppressed into calling a spade a screwdriver. Call them waht they are, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis or Afghanistans STOP CALLING THEM ASIANS!!! Lets be honest here, what good are muslims to our economy? Am I missing something? They cost far too much for our economy. For our childrens sake, Brits. OPEN YOUR EYES.

  • andrew

    Enjoyed your article about Nick Griffin and the BNP, which was quite well-informed if a tad unfair to the BNP leader. I believe that the party’s growth is less scary than the truly frightening demographic that serves to boost its popularity and the bland, opinion/debate stifling consensus that effectively disenfranchises both left and right in Britain. First, the demographic: how many Americans, or even British people, for that matter, realize that the indigenous people of Britain are rapidly being forced into the position where they will be a minority in their own country by the end of the century. In London, the percentage of births to foreign-born mothers is now over 50%, for the first time in recorded history. New Labour predicted that under 10,000 immigrants from the newly-expanded Europe would arrive to work in Britain – the official figure is 300,000 (and probably much higher). 90% of bogus asylum seekers overstay. But of course, even to mention these undeniable facts makes the observer ‘a racist’ in the view of the multi-cultural consensus – now shared by all three major political parties. In view of this, is it any wonder that the BNP is achieving a modest level of electoral success despite the universal opprobrium heaped on its shoulders by the ‘liberal’ media.

  • Thanks for all the responses.

    Someone up there asked why I say that the BNP is the fastest growing party in Britain when they only polled .74% nationwide in the council elections.

    Two reasons. First, that’s more than 3 times what they polled in the last election, and that’s an enormous rate of growth. Second, they polled .74% while running candidates in fewer than 100 of around 2000 council elections. In those elections where they actually ran they polled an average of around 15%, in many cases coming in second where they didn’t come in first. They actually won about a quarter of the seats they ran for. That’s enormous success for a party that’s a distant 4th overall on a nationwide basis.

    And as for those EU parliament elections, the way they are structured, all they had to do was get a bit better than the 6% they got to win a couple of actual seats in the EU parliament as extremist parties in other countries have already been able to do, because those are at-large elections where seats go to the top vote getters in the pool of candidates.

    All of this puts the BNP right on the brink, and giving them a cause like free speech which they can champion and be seen as having a legitimate grievance might be enough to move them up into serious contention as a national party.


  • Felix Evans

    Agatha, your question ‘what good are muslims to our economy?’ makes no sense. Whilst it would be true to say that ‘All muslims are members of the religion of Islam’, I fail to see how you can jump to the assumption that just because someone is a muslim it means that they are incapable of making a contribution to our economy. There are plenty of British born muslims in this country, and I’m quite sure that they have just as much potential to become a doctor or businessman for instance as anyone else. Hey maybe we should kick out all the Sihks, Buddhists and Jews as well. In fact, lets just go the whole hog and get rid of anyone who isn’t ‘British’ by which I mean anyone who isn’t a white Christian, we’ll just forget about how useful immigration has been to this country, and how it’s been invaded from everyone from the Vikings to the Romans. That is your British heritage.

    #6 Dave, couldn’t agree with you more. Britain is exactly like ‘Zimbarbwi’ (sic.), why only the other day government sanctioned killers raided my farm, raped my daughter, killed my wife, beat me to within an inch of my life and sent me packing.

    Does anyone realise that the benefit for an asylum seeker is £37.77 a week, in addition to accommodation and utilities, which is 30% below the level of basic income support for a British born citizen – which is generally considered to be the minimum required to maintain an acceptable standard of living. (Oxfam)

  • j jones

    BNP are the future for white ethnic British people, no one else is prepared to make a stand for us, no one else is prepared to speak out for us. nobody else is intersted in the white race as a group.

    The labour and tory parties are nothing more than the same old policies in the same suits, the BNP were defeatd in the EU elections by the failed UKIP, who were set up specifically to lower the BNP vote and to stop them winning seats.

    the problem isn’t ‘asylum seekers’ it is the corporations and governments who use asylum seekers as cheap labour and use the term multiculturalism to brook any opposition against this virtual slave labour.

    who are the only political party to speak out against these abuses?? yes! the BNP..

  • Wow, Felix. It’s nice to see that the insane exaggerations of the American left exist in Britain too. I never said one thing about the excesses of government you mention. I wrote about free speech, which used to be valued in America. Do they still have ‘Speakers Corner’ at Hyde Park? I heard they shut it down and were dragging speakers away in Black Marias a few years ago.

    As for the £37.77 a week, take that money, put 6 people getting paid that in a 2-bedroom flat in one of the seedier London suburbs and you’ve got more than enough for all of them to live off of. Then put a couple of them in jobs where they’re paid off the books and can still get their dole money and they’re living like princes compared to their cousins back home. I see you’ve also bought into the left’s assumption that a ‘living wage’ requires one to live one-person living alone in a one-bedroom flat in a good part of town.


  • despite your negative slant on the bnp and calling them nazis,if you actually read the BNP manifesto it will clearly show that most of your negativity is based on left wing media coverage. the true nazi fascists are those in power today with the continued oppression of the rights and liberties of the people of this once great land.

    My negative slant comes solely from the stated platform of the BNP which includes racial separation and repatriation, and from Nick Griffin’s personal statements denying the holocaust. That seems quite sufficient. The ‘left wing media’ in Britain is bad, but they still don’t make facts up out of whole cloth.

    But yes, my point is and remains that the government’s policies in this case are not significantly better than what you’d find in regards to free speech under a totalitarian regime.


  • Felix Evans

    Fair point, my sarcastic remark about Zimbabwe was unfair and pointless. In fact I actually agree with you that there has been a shocking clampdown on free speech in both Britain and the U.S. I don’t know if we still have Speakers Corner, but I do know it’s now illegal to say anything anti-government within X distance of Downing street.

    I don’t think I’m buying into leftist assumptions, I think my problem is that I fail to believe that the numbers of people in this country who truly are just here to claim benefits and not work or work illegally has a noticably detrimental effect on the country as a whole. Maybe I just don’t live in the right areas, but if these people our stealing our jobs and our houses (and I know you didn’t say this) then why is the government attempting to get a million people off of incapacity benefit and back into work?

    Some Asylum seekers are fleeing from war-torn countries, they may be killed if they return. Should we not show them some compassion?

    Still, these are just opinions, I don’t have enough knowledge.

  • IMO those Asylum seekers wouldn’t be there if there wasn’t a need for people to work low wage jobs. Britain’s unemployment is lower than most of Europe – low enough that most of those who don’t work are probably not working largely by choice. That it can have relatively low unemployment and still have so many immigrants suggests that without those immigrants there’d be a critical labor shortage which would probably be very damaging to the economy.


  • lumpy

    what troubles me about the press coverage of the BNP is the way they keep referring to it as a ‘conservative’ party, when based on its proposed policies it’s far left of most british parties on many issues. it’s a true nazi party in the classic sense of combining extremist nationalism with socialism, and that’s anything but conservative.

  • Dave Nalle

    That same sort of thing goes on here in the US. Because the media assumes that conservative=racist, they immediately class any racist group they encounter as conservative even when there’s absolutely no justification for it because conservatives are not in fact particularly racist as a group, and these racist political groups are usually anything but conservative philosophically.


  • T A Dodger

    I think the problem comes from the definition and uses of the word “conservative.” In the political sense it seems to mean both (1) “wanting to limit government interference” and (2) “wanting to retain traditional* values / institutions / social structures.”

    * whether those values / institutions / social structures actually existed at some point in the past or just in some mythical “good ol’ days”

  • valery


    What’s so frightening about the indigenous people of Britian ending up as a minority in their own country?

    I don’t believe the average Brit WASP sees much wrong with indigenous people in the US being a minority in their own country. Churchill certainly had no problem with it. The same holds true for Canada where indigenous people are forced to live like second class human beings under the dictates of a British parliamentary system, with the Queen of England as the head of state. Meanwhile in Australia, same thing.

    The three major British political parties are obliged to support multiculturalism or they risk being branded as s/limey hypocrites.

  • Bing

    Well at least Britian has one thing going for it.

    It ain’t France!

  • lumpy

    valery the frightening thing about ending up a minority in your own country is that then it isn’t really your country anymore. when that happens in Britain then Britain as Britain will be a matter of history rather than ongoong cultural tradition. it will be one with ancient egypt, the inca empire and rome – gone except in our memories. Britain had a glorious, noble and heroic culture which probably shaped the world more than any other. who won’t shed a tear when it vanishes beneath a pile of fast-food samosas, mosques and sari shops?

    I think I feel the tremors of arthur stirring in his cave beneath glastonbury tor.

  • Dave Nalle

    Valery, all I have to say to you is GIVE BRITAIN BACK TO THE PICTS!!!


  • Dave Nalle

    Oh, and lumpy. You really ought to share some of whatever kind of mushroom you’ve got stuffed into your pipe.


  • When did the idea of keeping Italy, for example, a white traditionally Catholic society become an example of evil-ism?

    While we are supposed to support the Jewish State, a place that is 99% Caucasion, support black Africa, which is 99.5% black, the Oriental world, which is 99.9% Oriental — we are supposed to believe that maintaining white societies that have traditional values is … evil?

    What ignoramous came up with this idea?

  • This is because ‘Whitey is the Devil’, Jill. You ought to know that by now.


  • Valery


    “glorious, noble, heroic”???


    Overpopulated, bloodthirsty, demented.

  • Valery

    Dave, stick to soft drinks.

  • Dave Nalle

    Although the Judge didn’t much appreciate it, Nick Griffin made some rather good points about Islam and the Koran at his trial yesterday. Check out the story at the BBC.


  • gary

    The reason Britain changed forever, in the 1950’s, was due to labour shortages on low paid work, the introduction of slave labour from the caribbean. Instead of paying the correct going rate, the government searched elsewhere.
    50 yrs later, they will still not pay nurses the proper going rate to entice indigenous workers, they carry on with the slave trade from 3rd world countries, 150,000 per yr.
    Cultures take thousands of years to evolve, and there is bound to be huge problems when different cultures are heaped together in one melting pot. If you have nothing in common with your neighbour, not values or beliefs, why should you get on with them?
    Its against muslim religion to drink alcohol, its against the behaviour of many uk yobs to come back from the pub still able to walk, completely the opposite. How can such opposites get on together, the answer is they don’t.

    There is a lot wrong with uk society, I think its been out of control for many years, and law and order is the most notable example. To think the UK can accept such drastic changes, to accomodate so many cultures is plain daft. With the funding of seperate religous schools, how on earth can this help integration? It is a prime example of segregation.

    Someone said France took a slippery slope when they banned the wearing of religous symbols in their STATE schools, (not others). I disagree.

    The french state school system broke away from the catholic church over 40 years ago, they stopped preaching it altogether. If they have a school uniform, everyone wears it without exception, equality all round. The teachers do not want the added resonsibility of supervising pupils who do not take part in sports, due to their religion. They do not want to make special seating arrangements to accomodate muslim girls who must not sit next to boys, or others who must pray 5 times during the day due to their beliefs, they believe there should be no exceptions to the rules in place. If not, every pupil has the right to this break too, its nothing to do with discrimination, its about fundamental equality.

    When we are employed in a job that requires a dress code, we should obey that dress code or leave the job. I do not believe that any religous attire should overide the rules, just for certain employees. If a head scarf is worn on religous/cultural grounds, then I should be allowed to wear my baseball cap on the same grounds too, under a religous or cultural banner.

    I would be very interested to know how an industrial tribunal would view this example of inequality, should I be dismissed for this breach

  • gary: “The reason Britain changed forever, in the 1950’s, was due to labour shortages on low paid work, the introduction of slave labour from the caribbean. Instead of paying the correct going rate, the government searched elsewhere.”

    In terms of searching elsewhere for workers as opposed to paying native citizens what the work was actually worth, the same thing happened in the U.S. From the 1880s-1920s, when immigration soared in the U.S. (as it is again these days) the government encouraged it so immigrants could have the jobs that the black population normally had (or tried to have) and rightly wanted more pay for.

    W.B. DuBois implored the country to “dip its bucket into its own well.” Give the former slave population jobs and pay them what they’re worth. Did we listen to him? Of course not.

    Mass immigration always changes the nature of a country.

  • Felix

    “we are supposed to believe that maintaining white societies that have traditional values is … evil?”

    I think it’s the emphasis on ‘white’ that causes some people (including myself – and not that it makes any difference but I am in fact a white caucasian) a problem. White is just a skin colour, there’s nothing inherently special about having white skin, just as there’s nothing inherently special about having black skin. Obviously there are historical associations, but do these have to make a difference to who a person is today, right now? I don’t think so.

    Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying anyone here is a white supremacist, but I really don’t understand what traditional white values are? If we’re talking about Britain, some of the things that spring to mind would be Imperialism, colonisation, slavery, the Crusades etc… and yes I’m picking up on the bad (as I see them) aspects, but my point is that people who talk about ‘traditional values’ and ‘noble and heroic culture’ tend to forget all of the bad bits.

    I don’t think that Britain is in danger of vanishing beneath a pile of mosques, and lets not forget that Western corporations are constantly imposing their values and products on other cultures. McDonalds and the CocaCola corporations to name a couple.

    Now personally I’m not in favour of any religion, I think religion generally causes a lot more problems than any benefits it gives. I probably like Islam less than I like Christianity, but only because I think that it’s more illiberal. At the end of the day, I’d rather be in a pub with some of my friends and a few sober muslims, than a bunch of tanked up yobs just waiting to kick off.

  • My recollection from living in Britain in the 1970s is that by then the labour unions had reached the point of power where they had raised the cost of domestic labour to the point where it was crippling the economy and leading to massive unemployment. The only way to revive the economy and keep it productive when native Britains would not work at a fair wage was to import labour which would work at a wage which kept the economy functional to preserve the industrial base.

    Thatcher attempted to deal with this problem by promoting the conversion from an industrial economy to a modern tech and entrepreneurial economy and moving away from unionized industries, but by that point a lot of the damage was done and the door had been opened to immigration, and immigrants were catching up on the skills needed to function in a more modern economy as well.

    Let me make one thing perfectly clear. Britain today is enormously better off economically than it was in the 1970s and 1980s. Immigrant labour has allowed the restoration of a natural economic hierarchy which has made the country more productive and improved the quality of life for everyone. If you don’t remember the conditions in Britain during the 1970s ask someone who does. It’s a paradise today in comparison. The catch is that there’s a social price to pay for this economic improvement and the current government hasn’t dealt with it well.

    As with the other European countries – especially France – labour unions outstripped their usefulness and became a grasping, destructive force. In their greed they were willing to sacrifice the welfare of the nation and their own workers to advance their political interests and a short-sighted and selfish agenda. Cheap immigrant labour broke that stranglehod on the economy, but that solution came with a price which is now being paid.

    And I’d hardly call immigrant labor slave labor. Immigrants are paid a market wage and are eager to work and work hard for it. They don’t come to Britain with the intention of going on the dole and according to the statistics I’ve seen they are more eager and work harder to become self-sufficient than certain classes of native Britains.


  • Valery

    Ooooooooooooowwwww, those nasty evil unions spoilin’ everything!

  • gonzo marx

    to comment #34

    might i suggest you go to Britain for a visit before you make these empty allegations?

    i was just there, true it was for only 10 days…but i did a lot of talking to folks while in Bristol on many of the same topic addressed in this Post and Thread…

    and i didn’t get anywhere near the same picture as what is painted here

    now, remember..mine was a professional trip..so i was dealing with folks in a highly skilled trade…techs and engineers…as well as txi drivers and a diverse crowd in the pubs during the evenings

    you know the first thing i noticed? the cars..no “beaters” in sight…the economy seemed to be doing ok, but for the folks working, it was stagnant wages and a deterioration of much of the social system that was a major concern

    and EVERYONE i talked with had the same reactions to “immigrant” labor…NOT the folks coming from other parts of the Commonwealth, but literally imported labor to undercut British wages…it was universal in their condemnation and the opinion of both “liberals” from Labour and “conservatives”…that there was artificial downward pressure on wages due to business attempting to import labor…

    Britian has been suffering from too many our of commonwealth immigrants entering the country too damn fast…over 300,000 such a year for the last few years…too many to assimilate, and those coming in were pushing the lower wage earners out of their jobs in droves

    just some Thoughts..i had been trying to stay away from this Thread…but so much of what has been said here does NOT reconcile with what i personally Observed…


  • Dave Nalle

    Gonzo, I was in Britain for about a month two years ago and went all over the country. Nothing you say in #36 is at odds with my observations either in the original article or in #34 which talks primarily about the historical context of the current situation in Britain.

    In fact, your statements directly buttress my argument from #36 which is that the importation of labor was used to break the unions and restore more of a competitive economy with an overall lowering of wages as one of the side effects. Of course, taxes and cost of living also went down during the same period, so living standards did not decline – in fact they increased – you can easily confirm this with data from the OETC.

    The problem is that after the Thatcher era, when the flow of immigrants should have been restricted substantially, the New Labour government was unwilling to do so because immigrant voters tend to support them, so it’s to their advantage not to shut down immigration.

    Whatever you’ve seen on this thread which doesn’t agree with your perspective likely comes from the comments of some of the Brits who’ve responded.


  • Dave Nalle

    Valery, you’ve clearly never seen a nation and an economy brought to their knees by a general transport strike.


  • gonzo marx

    to comment #37…as i stated, the main concern of the folks i met and takled with in Bristol was the complete and utter stagnation of wages, while costs of living increased

    this inevitably leads to a corrosion in the standard of living across the board for middle class workers, even in a highly trained tech category

    you continue to think that lowering the price of Labor is a worthy goal…and it is , if you own the corp..it most definately is NOT when you work for your living

    but i woudl hazard a guess we will just never agree on this Issue, so the Point is moot at best


  • Dave Nalle

    to comment #37…as i stated, the main concern of the folks i met and takled with in Bristol was the complete and utter stagnation of wages, while costs of living increased

    Gonzo, this is ALWAYS peoples concern, even when it’s not actually happening. The fact is that after the recession bottomed out in early 2003 wages have been steadily rising in Britain, and unemployment has been going down consistently for more than a decade. You can get an overview of how strong the labor economy there is in this report from the Office for National Statistics. BTW, the OEDC shows them having a slightly lower unemployment rate than we do here in the US, and enormously lower than most of the rest of Europe.

    And let me add that it doesn’t matter what you’re earning if you haven’t got a job.

    this inevitably leads to a corrosion in the standard of living across the board for middle class workers, even in a highly trained tech category

    Except that there’s no evidence that this is happening in Britain. What I saw when I was there was a real renaissance of tech and entrepreneurial business and general prosperity which was remarkable compared to what I observed there in the mid-80s.

    you continue to think that lowering the price of Labor is a worthy goal…and it is , if you own the corp..it most definately is NOT when you work for your living

    It’s a worthy goal if it ends unemployment, expands the portion of the population in decent paying jobs and gives the country a growing economy – which is what it’s done in Britain. But I agree that there comes a point where you don’t want to lower wages too far, and where you don’t want to allow endless immigration to unbalance the economy.


  • gonzo marx

    again, i appreciate the link…and i understand the points you are trying to make

    let me re-iterate, that the Observation does NOT jibe with the folks in the tech industries i met with…NO raises in 3 years, but costs of living DID rise

    not only in the one corporation, but from the taxi drivers, pub owners, restaurant owners…hotel staff, and others…a decent sampling

    so just like in the states, what observation from the ground, NOT from some study with a vested Interest in setting the numbers up to look good, shows is that indeed unemployment is down…but the jobs are paying less, with less benefits and cost of living steadily increasing

    the results are inevitable…

    an economy is based on supply and demand…what supply siders refuse to consider is the fuck ups that result in the long term form denying half the Equation just to satisfy their short term goals


  • Dave Nalle

    Gonzo, cost of living in Britain has been rising at a rate of an average of just over 1% a year for the past decade. That’s lower than most nations. All it would take is a tiny raise to cancel three years of that out instantly.

    And people ALWAYS talk down their work environment to visitors. It’s human nature to bitch even when there’s very little to bitch about. Ask some of those people how they’d like to be in France or Italy or Germany doing those jobs, with less job security, lower wages and higher taxes.

    I’m not saying that what you observed isn’t significant, it’s just not sign of any kind of crisis – yet. The economy is still strong, and that will be reflected in wages and other indicators. Remember, Britain is coming out of a recession just like the US.

    But I agree there’s cause to worry. Unbridled immigration can’t be permitted if they want their economic recovery to continue. The BNP might actually have a legitimate value if they can pressure the major parties into doing something about it.


  • Hi.

    Im just a British guy who wants to reverse the slide of my country into dhimitude, and remove the choking hold of political correctness from my once free and proud country. Most members of the BNP are like me, and ive met a few.

    Secondly, NG didnt deny the holocaust, he correctly claimed the numbers were overblown. At the start of his trial, the memorial plate outside auschwitz said 6 million dead, after his trial, it said 2 million dead, and ive seen photo’s of this.

    He still got convicted. Now, roll forward to right now. He predicted the bombers would be who they where, would come from where they did, and would strike where they did. He is on trial, and may face jail.

    He is a brave man and i support him and his party, and am heartened by the way it continues to grow healthier and change for the better.

    Vote BNP, and make politics matter again!


  • Valery

    BNP member, what has your country got to be proud of?

    And while it’s got its unwelcome schnoz stuck into the affairs of Iraq, what’s with the whine about being free?

  • Nalle: “the wealthy classes […] are the backbone of any successful society.”

    That’s beautiful. Really puts those expendable coal miners in perspective, doesn’t it.

  • Im just a British guy who wants to reverse the slide of my country into dhimitude, and remove the choking hold of political correctness from my once free and proud country. Most members of the BNP are like me, and ive met a few.

    How about the ones whose heads are shaved and who are wearing jackboots for stomping immigrant kids to death at busstops? Do you feel comfortable in the same room with them?

    Secondly, NG didnt deny the holocaust, he correctly claimed the numbers were overblown. At the start of his trial, the memorial plate outside auschwitz said 6 million dead, after his trial, it said 2 million dead, and ive seen photo’s of this.

    The exact quote from Griffin on this subject from a BBC interview in 1998:

    “”I am well aware that the orthodox opinion is that 6 million Jews were gassed and cremated and turned into lampshades. Orthodox opinion also also once held that the Earth was flat… I have reached the conclusion that the “extermination” tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter witch-hysteria.”

    Seems pretty straightforward to me.


  • 5D, who do you expect to capitalize businesses without a wealthy class? It’s either that or go the communist route. Oh never mind, I just answered the question for you.


  • Rich people may be important, they may be desirable, they may even be necessary. But if we’re constructing a human-body metaphor for society, I don’t think I’d call them the back bone. I’d say they’re more like the spleen or the gaul bladder.

  • Dave Nalle

    Doesn’t work, 5D. You can live without a spleen or a gallbladder. A free society dies without a capital class, so make them the heart or maybe the lungs.


  • ggraham d’lore

    Hi Dave, can i suggest you visit the British National Party website at http://www.bnp.org.uk May i also say that Americans are renowned for their Patriotism, are we to call all Patriotic Americans Fascists? I as a BNP voter would appreciate you do a little homework before posting a blog on a topic you obviosly know nothing about!

  • ggraham d’lore

    Sorry about spelling mistake should have been “obviously” forgot to use spell check.By the way the reason people are voting for the BNP is because the UK has become a multi-cultural nightmare with the indigenous population living in constant fear. Come on over Dave and walk down any city street in the UK after 9pm.The Asian/Black hoodies will surely give you a good old British welcome!

  • Dave Nalle

    I’ve been to the BNP website. It’s linked in the article.

    You say I haven’t done my homework? Please point to any factual errors in the article. I’d love to see them.

    This is about the most positive piece I could possibly write about the BNP and be honest. What did you expect?

    The BNP proves that even the most hardbitten reactionaries can be right now and then, and that’s to their credit. It still doesn’t make some of their policies any less repellant.


  • Dave Nalle

    Oh, and I’ll be over there later this year, but I’m sure I can find better ways to entertain myself than hanging out with the BNP.


  • ggraham d’lore

    No one is asking you to “Hang out with the BNP” Blinkered Liberal idiots like you are not welcome anyway. Do the English a favour and stay in America, we can do without your anti-white racism!

  • Dave Nalle

    Let it be recorded that at this time and place I was called a ‘blinkered liberal idiot’.



  • ggraham d’lore

    Sorry Dave, but when you continue to bander words such as Nazi and Racist then what else can we call you other than Liberal? People of the UK are fed up to the back teeth of Liberals using these words to put down the indigenous population.You are just another old Liberal dude using the same rhetoric to get your own way.

  • Felix

    No ggraham, racist people like you are fed up with being called Nazi’s and racists, why don’t you just show some balls and admit that that’s what you are?

    Also, before you talk about rhetoric, maybe you should note that a dictionary definition of rhetoric is ‘the art or study of using language effectively and persuasively’, which is clearly something that anyone wishing to put a point of view forward would wish to be able to do. I’m sure Nick Griffin aims to use language effectively and persuasively, as do all politicians.

  • Stay in the United States if you want. You clearly would not vote B.N.P. anyway. Please continue to spread the word over there that at last there is hope left for the white race and we will defeat the enemy. The B.N.P. may be small right now but they are in the right, the labour party is using tricks to stop people voting B.N.P. however we will overcome these traitors and then you will see a very different Britain. Multi-racial zionist controlled globalization your time is coming to an end.

  • gonzo marx

    and comment #58 proves the racist bit completely…

    as for comment #56…allow me to point out to all the GOP types the sheer Irony here..

    calling Mr Nalle a “liberal”

    now you see how the dittohead tactics pioneered by many of the leaders you follow are used…

    is it too much to ask that something can be learned here?

    is it too much to ask that [perhaps folks will listen and actually communicate rather than name call and shout down?

    i can Dream, can’t i?


  • Felix

    Bloody hell, you people just keep coming out of the woodwork don’t you? Do you realise that your zionist conspiracy theories make you sound completely insane?

    Do you even understand what Zionism is, are you aware of the fact that United Nations General Assembly Resolution 4686 states that “…to equate Zionism with the intolerable sin of racism is to twist history and forget the terrible plight of Jews in World War II and indeed throughout history.”? Not that you would even care as you probably simply don’t like Jews, I don’t even care why as I’m confident that you can’t give any logical or rational answer.

    You are not going to overcome any traitors, you are not going to turn Britain into a White’s only country. I know this because I know that whilst many people feel that immigration levels to this country are too high, they still wouldn’t condone your extremist views.
    Polls show that there is little evidence of racism amongst younger generations, such as mine, so I think that you will find that your dreams of White Britain remain unfulfilled.

    However, I do have a suggestion for you – ever heard the old saying ‘if you can’t beat them, join them’? Taking this on board, why don’t you do every decent person a favour and move to the Antartic – it’s the perfect place for you, the vast quantities of ice and snow make it very WHITE see?

  • I am triply appalled by this post and the racist lunacy it has attracted in the comments.

    1. Firstly, I have to suffer Dave Nalle, possibly one of the most maddeningly dogmatic and blinkered of souls, running down Britain (not for the first time either). About Racism! This from a citizen of a country where there are still people alive today who thought NOTHING of hanging black people in trees.

    Dave mate, please go turn your troubled little country into a perfect paradise before patronising us in Europe, again. Frankly, we’re glad you don’t live in Britain and wouldn’t want you either; please keep your warped and weird perspective over there in your juvenile little country. Bah!

    2. I’ve been forced to take sides with a racist deluded lunatic against, well, an almost racist deluded lunatic.

    3. I’ve had to endure somebody calling out Mr Nalle as a “blinkered liberal idiot”.

    Please excuse me, I have to go outside; I may be some time.


  • Gareth, Graham,

    The two of you are a tribute to the success of Blog Critics. We can proudly count members of the BNP in our readership.

    You read. That is good. Do you perceive?

    One of you has called one of the premier conservatives amongst us a blinkered liberal idiot. That is quite a stretch. Dave Nalle is going to be a long time living down that one.

    Another has taken the trouble to defend your party leader, who himself seems to need to minimize the acts of the Nazis in the last major European conflagration – against Jews anyway. Hmmm… You had to drag us into this discussion of the strengths and weaknesses of Albion. Not a smart move, gentlemen.

    And you are not racists, and you are not Nazis. Interesting…

    If that is true, why do you need to defend a man or a movement that executed one third of my people? What is the gain, other than to defend an elder brother or predecessor? Six million people do not disappear in accounting errors. At least not Jews.

    Not to worry, gents. A lot of British Jews are buying aspartments in this country. They do perceive. Between wunderkinder like you, the Arabs whose butts your government and media regularly apply their lips to, amd the people who yell “radical Zionist” and similar trash, there is not much of a future for the Jews of Britain.

    So they are preparing to leave the white cliffs of Dover to the likes of you – while they are still alive…

  • While on the subject of the holocaust. This is no more than a zionist ploy. Original footage of the camps shows people having starved to death in the camps. This does not tally with the theory that they were gassed straight away. Is it strange that when Israel was created these liberated jews went on to persecute the Arabs and then create the biggest concentration camps ever (Gaza and the West Bank)

  • 1. Firstly, I have to suffer Dave Nalle, possibly one of the most maddeningly dogmatic and blinkered of souls, running down Britain (not for the first time either). About Racism! This from a citizen of a country where there are still people alive today who thought NOTHING of hanging black people in trees.

    Christopher, before you start running me down, perhaps you ought to READ the post at the top of this thread. Nowhere in it do I accuse Britain of racism or really say anything bad about the country as a whole. The post is about freedom of speech and the mistake that Britain is making in trying to shut it down and thereby making Nick Griffin into a martyr and giving the BNP a legitimate cause in addition to racism. That you could think the post is about racism shows that you’re paying no more attention than the BNP boys are.


  • One of you has called one of the premier conservatives amongst us a blinkered liberal idiot. That is quite a stretch. Dave Nalle is going to be a long time living down that one.

    The double irony is that I actually AM a liberal, but ggraham doesn’t actually know what liberalism really is, so when they call me a liberal they think it’s an insult and incompatible with conservatism, which it is not. And then on the flip side, you and Christopher Rose call me a conservative, not understanding that being conservative on economic issues in no way stops me from being liberal on those issues where liberalism really counts.


  • Dave, those blinkers of yours are so encrusted you’re in danger of going totally blind. I’m not going to waste time counting them but there are so many bad, and worse prejudiced ideas in your post it beggars belief.

    Not at all surprised to see you defending your nonsense though, it’s just what we’d expect from such a glib dogmatist.

    I don’t care to enter into another grinding debate with such a determined tortoise debatinator as you but it can not be co-incidence that you persistently write stuff that basically says one of two things:- Europe is worse than the USA or The Democrats are worse than the Republicans. Dave man, we get all that, you’ve said it all so many times and in so may ways as to rival MCH’s classic “ch*ck*nh*wk” comment.

    Finally, I’m not running you down so much as pointing out the view from one person’s perspective, you know, it’s called an opinion based on observation of activity, in this case yours, which constitutes a persistent pattern of behaviour.

  • Actually, Dave, I didn’t call you a conservative but don’t let the facts get in the way of your entertaining freeform riffing. Go Daddy Go!

  • As Stephen Colbert would say, “We’re all entitled to our own facts but not our own opinions.”

  • annieb

    I have lived and worked in the USA for many years I turned down the chance to become an American Citizenas I felt I was betraying my country- England by doing it. It seems though that each time I come home I feel my country has now betrayed me. There are places I barely recognise. I am not a racist I respect other cultures and religion. But it seems as though my country is hurtling out of control with immigrants and the English are loosing their identity and culture because of it. Crime is out of control the law seems to protect the criminals more than the victims. Getting drunk or taking drugs is the norm for many of the under thirty’s. My parents God Bless them would never beleive what has happend if they came back.

  • james,

    What you don’t know about the Middle East could fill several volumes. Stick to whining about immigrants or whatever problems you have in the UK. Or if you are on a different sie of the debate about Britain, that too is fine with me.

    It’s laughable reading this idiocy sometimes…

  • While on the subject of the holocaust. This is no more than a zionist ploy. Original footage of the camps shows people having starved to death in the camps. This does not tally with the theory that they were gassed straight away.

    Oh! I see. The Nazis didn’t really GAS the Jews, they merely STARVED them to death. MUCH better. Why, the Jews were allowed to live and suffer over a period of weeks and months! Boy, that sure makes me think differently of Hitler and his minions! They are not the evil people I had previously imagined!

  • Marc Ward

    The BNP has gained a lot of support over the last few years in the UK, and will continue to gather ground on the other parties as they continue to ignore the nations concerns on immigration and asylum seekers entering the U.K. 50% of mothers expecting in London are foreign born?? Starling but true figures. Girls being groomed / raped by Muslims up North, again true. Nick Griffin and Mark Collett are on trial for exposing the truths behind these problems, ironically the government wants to lock the them away. Why you ask? My only guess is that the rapidly growing BNP party will only continue to grow as more white people feel abandoned by their government and local boroughs. A lot of white people are starting to feel like 2nd rate citizens in their own country. Under the current Labour government and Tony Blairs administartion, the UK has let in more immigrants into the UK than any other time period or administration in control. We can not solve the problems of the world by letting in everybody into the UK. How many stories have you heard of white families getting little or no help from the government, but asylum seekers and / or immigrants getting 3 bedroom houses and full benefits upon entry to the UK? We must not give up our identity nor should we ignore that the fact that the majority of England is white and Christian. I will vote for BNP, not because i am rascist, nor are they for that matter, but because they represent the white community and our concerns for Britain. The BNP are the voice for white England, just like how Labour are the voice for multi-culturism and everything of colour.

  • gonzo marx

    you do know that you lose all sense of even being close to credible as soon as you say “white people” don’t you?

    it tends to indicate a bigoted and ignorant mindset


  • Marc Ward

    Further more, Saudia Arabia and other Muslim nations would never let their identity vanish in a midst of mass immigration from the west. Nor would they give up old traditions and such things as not flying their national flag in fear of upsetting their foriegn residents, But Britain has, how sad is that! There is nothing wrong with flying the union jack above every government town hall, nor is there nothing wrong in keeping and promoting our anglo saxon heritage.

  • After he says ‘whites’ or ‘white people’ about a dozen times in one paragraph does he lose so much credibility that he implodes and becomes a black hole of racism? Oh dammit, I showed my prejudice against ultra heavy celestial bodies again.


  • Marc Ward

    Right as saying “White people” is about as taboo as saying black or Muslim right?

  • Gonzo, you were in the UK recently. What did you see aside from your paucity of pocket change?

  • Dave, those blinkers of yours are so encrusted you’re in danger of going totally blind. I’m not going to waste time counting them but there are so many bad, and worse prejudiced ideas in your post it beggars belief.

    Sure would be nice if you could come up with one example of this. I even tried to be as nice as I could to the BNP. The other only negatives in the post are about the current New Labour government. There’s not one word about Britain being bad as a nation. The reason you can’t count these prejudiced ideas is that they aren’t there.

    Not at all surprised to see you defending your nonsense though, it’s just what we’d expect from such a glib dogmatist.

    Are you saying that you actually disagree with the basic premise of this post? You think that censorship of free speech is a good thing and that making a martyr of a nazi and helping ot legitimize their party will be good for Britian? Come again?

    it can not be co-incidence that you persistently write stuff that basically says one of two things:- Europe is worse than the USA or The Democrats are worse than the Republicans. Dave man, we get all that, you’ve said it all so many times and in so may ways as to rival MCH’s classic “ch*ck*nh*wk” comment.

    I’ve never written even a single sentence which is as simplistic as you suggest here. Pointing out failures of the European healthcare system is not the same as saying that Europe is worse than America. You have a terrible tendancy to over generalize and extrapolate meanings to what I write which just aren’t there. If I say Rush Limbaugh is a pompous windbag does that mean that I hate all Republicans or all talk show hosts? That seems to be the logic you’re operating under.

    Finally, I’m not running you down so much as pointing out the view from one person’s perspective, you know, it’s called an opinion based on observation of activity, in this case yours, which constitutes a persistent pattern of behaviour.

    Yes, I have a persistent pattern of expressing my opinion and it is indeed based on my observations and it is my personal perspective. If you disagree, that’s fine. But I do wish you wouldn’t so grossly misrepresent me with such broad and innacurate generalizations.


  • Marc Ward

    Slaps my hands for writng the word “white” 3 times in a paragraph about england. Damn it, I thought I lived in a country with an anglo saxon hertitage???

  • blah blah bla forest blah blah trees bla blah pot blah blah black blah blah argue blah blah blah pointlessness blah blah kill me now blah blaaargh!

  • I see you’re working hard to maintain the high quality of our comments, Christopher.


  • gonzo marx

    Ruvy…see comment #36 for my basic observations on this topic

    and yeah…any comment from you on my recent Post? i am curious to hear your take on it


  • Anon

    What do you call a black man flying a plane?

    A pilot, you racist ****!

  • You see just whatever you want to Dave, don’t stress yourself on something as challenging as reality.

  • Ruvy.

    What i understand nick griffin to have been convicted for, telling the truth about the number of dead in the holocaust (“minimizing”, i think you called it), was the right thing to do. Telling the truth is almost always if not always the right thing to do, and even if he was wrong if it is his honestly held opinion it should be voiced.

    If he did say that the holocaust didnt happen he is a dribbling idiot. But i would still support his right to be one. Its just not my understanding of the situation.

    Dave, if that quote is attributable to him, it doesnt conclusivly prove he said it didnt happen. He could have been meaning that the holocaust was a lie and propoganda in the sense that it was overblown in numbers. But it doesnt look good and i was thinking about it last night. Context is important here.

    And Ruvi, i have never defended Nazi’s or nazi’ism. Hitler was a tosser, and evil.

  • I don’t have access to the full BBC report from way back in 1998 and I doubt that they provided full context to Griffin’s statement. But despite that it’s a fairly long and self-contained quote and it seems pretty clear that at the very least he wants to minimize the significance of the holocaust, which in and of itself is clearly an attempt to subvert history for political reasons. That said, there ARE major figures who at least partailly deny or minimize the holocaust and remain politically viable in one way or another. The example here in the US would be Pat Buchanan, who has said much the same sort of thing Griffin has and actually holds similar beliefs in many other areas, but has remained an acceptable voice in contemporary politics.

    I have to also point out that Griffin appeared as a speaker at David Duke’s International European-American Unity Conference, which was basically an international nazi convention, and Duke introduced his speech and lavished him with praise. You’re known by the company you keep.


  • Well, this is the worst aspect of the BNP to me. The manifesto is wonderfull, and the members i have met salt of the earth. Now Tony lecomber has…. resigned.. i hope there will be a movement towards politics, and away from the lunatic fringe.

    Thanks for your input, its not often you hear fair comments against the BNP.

    Oh and P.s Ruvy, i just bought the book “auswitz” and also “armageddon”, the last by max hastings.

  • May I just ask here that we sperate ENGLAND from the rest of BRITIAN please.

    England is only one of the counrties that makes up Britian.

  • Phil

    I’ve never read such drivel. You have, quite clearly, never even looked at the BNP’s policies – they certainly do not resemble anything you have portrayed. I have personally met many members of the BNP and they are the pillars of society; a vicar, several doctors, two dentists and a TV personality included. The BNP is, and should be, the fastest growing plitical party in the UK (about the only thing you came close to getting right!), but are far from the Nazis you claim and have no connections to the National Front (an entirely different organisation altogether – now these are akin to your KKK!).
    I suggest you read some of the BNP’s policies and look at the concerns of Britains people (especially British pensioners). You will find these aligned perfectly.

    I myself am not currently a BNP member but I certainly would consider giving them my vote at any future elections.

  • Phil, I paraphrase directly from their agenda as posted on their website in the article and list the elements of their platform in detail.

    As for the BNP connection to the NF, the original BNP grew directly out of the NF – same people involved and everything. Griffin’s father was in the NF and switched to the BNP. When the current incarnation of the BNP was formed the direct connection to the NF was broken because that generation of leaders was all old, discredited and retired, but they still inherited the philosophy and still hold to it.

    Are you going to honestly try to argue that the BNP does not support racial separation and repatriation of the last two generations of immigrants? That’s not going to fly, because it’s all over their public statements.


  • For those who are interested, the Scottish branch of the BNP has posted a video of a Griffin speech addressed in the trial and played for the jury today on their website. You can download it directly in Windows Media format.


  • Phil

    I never said that they did not have connections in the past – they did indeed origionally branch off from the NF in order to start a serious political party and leave behind the thugs and hooligans. Now, as stated, they have no connections with the NF, and they are still a serperate organisation (just as they were when I wrote the earlier comment!).

    The more I read on this thread, especially from people who have only ever visited the UK for a few weeks (and then, more than likely only to tourist regions or city hotels), the more I believe that the Press have a lot to answer for.
    Like I said, talk to the man on any British street, talk to the pensioners, look at our ‘world gone mad’ political correctness – no more gollywogs, blackboards or even our beloved nursery rhyme ‘baa baa black sheep’. And now, as you say, they want to ban freedom of speech. If to oppose this is racism, i’m a racist and a bloody big one at that!

  • Felix Evans

    The Daily Mail has a lot to answer for – just because they print one or two articles citing extreme examples of political correctness does not mean that this is the case everywhere.

    To say that the present government wishes to ‘ban free speech’ is a gross exaggeration. There have been some cutbacks in freedom of speech in terms of what can be said about other religions, races and terrorism – especially around government buildings in London – but this does not count as banning free speech.

    Free speech encompasses a lot more than the examples I mention above, from art and music to theatre and film. Anti discrimination laws may affect what some artists feel they can now say, and personally I do not believe that this is a good thing – but it is by no means absolute fact that free speech is a right in any case. Just because you think you have a right to say what you like doesn’t make it true, there are many issues to take into account.

  • Phil

    Sond pretty much like a ban to me Felix – 4 legs good 2 legs bad mate!

  • Gonzo,

    About your own post, I did leave one comment there. You did a fantastic first or second paragraph. The concept of looking at things from a trinary point of view is extremely important and significant – at least to this rusty stin – I mean thinker. I’m no mathematician, but I wonder if this idea might have applications to mathematics.

  • For the record, I didn’t just visit England as a tourist, I’ve lived there off and on for periods of years, not weeks. And I don’t think anyone here suggested that the BNP wasn’t responding to a real problem. The question on them is whether their response is entirely appropriate or proportional to the problem they’re dealing with.

    As for the free speech issue, I freely admit that’s being addressed from an American perspective. We’re used to having more free speech than the Brits are. But that means that when they start losing ground in that area they have less to lose and each little whittling away does more harm.


  • The English race: the original Paleolithic people (who don’t have a name that I know of), Celts, Romans, Angles, Saxons, Vikings (half of England was Danish no more than 1,000 years ago), Normans, French and German Protestant refugees throughout the middle of the last millennium, European Jews, many Africans (who start appearing with little fuss in the historical record from at least the 1600s … So what precisely has changed? England too has always been a country of immigrants. If you are “English” you’ve almost certainly got a bit of all of those blood in your veins.

  • BNP member,

    I can neither applaud nor condemn Nick Griffin’s conviction. He expressed an opinion about the Nazi murder of my people, and generally, having been raised in America, I’d say he was exercising freedom of speech. The fact that he was wrong is not an issue.

    One of the problems of not having a written constitution, is that youy have no overriding set of legal principles to appeal to that your parliament can only overrule with a super majority of some kind. This is one of the problems that the author of the article wrote about, though he didn’t approach it as I do.

    The law lords in your country and debaters in the commons can talk about the “British Constitution” but there is no such thing. It’s all smoke and mirrors. So essential rights get stepped on in periods of fear.

    We in Israel suffer from the same problem and we don’t even have royals to keep us entertained with their foolish behavior. At least you have that. Be grateful for small favors.

  • Here in America we create our own pseudo royals to scoff at.

    But you do have a point on the written constitution. It’s certainly harder to argue with than the British kind, but on the other hand, Britain really does have a strong, documented tradition of a thousand years of cumulative legal precedent which forms the equivalent of a constitution. Going back to the Anglo-Saxons and the Celts Britain has an extremely long history of continually in force laws combined with a tradition of obsessive record keeping, which creates a pretty impressive legacy. It’s better than what a lot of countries have. Without it we wouldn’t have our Constitution, which is basically just a summary of some essential principles of the British legal tradition.


  • The summer of 1976 was a hot one and i seem to remember there were a lot of ladybirds.

  • I was in Russia in the summer of ’76 and as I recall it was indeed extremely hot. The peat bogs outside of Moscow caught fire and burned underground for weeks, covering the entire city in gray ash.

    Um, what was the point again?


  • andrew


    Thanks for your reply. So you don’t think the prospect of an indigenous people being outnumbered within two or three generations is frightening. Tell that to the aboriginal peoples of Australia – to name but one example of many.

    And how do you react to the news yesterday of the Editor of France Soir being sacked for daring to print a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed? His proprietor was scared of a Muslim backlash. Islam is now a demographic political force in Europe, thanks to nothing more than NUMBERS of people. I hope you’re satisfied when your daughters are forced wear burkhas and cannot express their views in public for fear of being ritually murdered. Exaggeration? Ask Mr Van Gogh

  • Andrew, I see the chickens of political correctness coming home to roost. There is nothing wrong with legislation that limits expression of hatred for others, per se.

    The problem is when one of those “others” uses it and other attempts to promote good will, to shove their ideology down your throat.

    If Israelis burned the Egyptian consulate here every time Al Ahram ran anti-Jewish pieces, the building would be an ashen pit with an eternal flame.

    Hmm… I might have stumbled on a good idea there…

  • I should clarify my remarks a bit. By anti-Jewish pieces in tghe above comment, I do not mean criticisms of Israeli policy and the like, or complaints about discrimination against Arabs or other things that have basis is discernible fact or that are reasonably argued as to their verity.

    I mean the outright trash recylced from the Nazi anti-Jewish “literature” from 75 years ago. Pieces filled with nothing but lies and false accusations that are nothing by incitement to hate Jews and to continue hating them.

  • allan jones

    Natalie, it is true that since Paleolithic times many different tribes and groups settled in these islands, but since 1066 there has been no mass immigration of people from elsewhere until the last few decades
    The important point here is that previous incomers were from the European mainland, and after initial difficulties, came together as one cohesive group with the same values and traditions
    The difference now is that newcomers are from completely different racial groups, with different and alien norms and values.
    This is what BNP sympathisers are concerned about, that our indiginous culture is being engulfed by outsiders, and our own people made to feel they are not important

  • allan jones

    I would also like to add: What is there so inherently WRONG with liking and wanting to be with people from ones own ethnic group?
    The new immigrants to the UK certainly want this. THe vast majority have no intention of assimilating with the indiginous people, they appear to want their OWN culture and religion and to be in these islands but not of them.

    They are like third world ghettoes in the UK, (this has been encouraged by the liberal elite) enjoying the standard of living this country gives, but not taking part in our culture and traditions.

    This being very different to migrants to the USA, who are expected to fully integrate into US life, and leave their differences behind

  • Dave Nalle

    So Allan, then why not try to integrate the immigrants rather than ghettoizing them? Then you wouldn’t be stuck with a radical solution like repatriation which just makes you look racist.


  • allan jones

    Because they CHOOSE to be ghettoised, most want nothing to do with British culture and traditions.

    Only now is it starting to dawn on the white liberal elite that their “multicultural dream” has not materialised, and never will because different cultures and races do not mix, but retain their differences, especially when encouraged to do so

    There was an English politician called Enoch Powell, who was hounded out of office for predicting “rivers of blood” if uncontrolled immigration was not checked. It can now be clearly seen that his predictions were right

  • When they ‘chose’ to be ghettoized did you make any effort to reach out to them and include them in the general culture?


  • allan jones

    Dave, I think you have lost touch with reality in modern Britain.

    No, I did not personally try to include them in the general culture, because that would be a lost cause. The new immigrants have been encouraged by the politically-correct ruling elite not to do this. They have been told Britain is a multicultural society where all subjects (citizens) should keep their own identity intact, and not integrate

    The ruling elite, aided and abetted by the British media and the education system have gone to great lenghths to tell immigrants that they should do this. All government and local council literature is printed in every concievable language, instead of encouraging them to learn English. Indeed in the college I worked in we had the ludicrous situation of lecturers learning Urdu,Punjabi etc in order to communicate with their students

    Did you know it is frowned on to fly the union flag in Britain? It is thought this may “offend” ethnic minorities. Councils have been known to instruct people to remove the union flag or the flag of St George when ethnics have complained that this is “racist”

    This “racist” tag is applied to anyone attempts to uphold the indiginous culture. All mainstream political parties are scared shitless to defend the rights of the majority because to be labelled a “racist” could end their career, eg Enoch Powell

    Now it is illegal to speak badly of other races, in case you are “inciting violence”

    Most British people I know are heartilly sick of their needs and rights being ignored in favour of the needs of minority groups, and this is why they can now see that the only people who will do this are the BNP. I think I speak for the majority who are afraid to speak out because of being labelled a “racist”

  • allan jones

    Bye the way, what I have said here (probably illegal in Britain) would never be aired by the general media, there is no debate about “multiculturalim” because anyone who objects to it is a “racist”, and encouraging “racial hatred”

  • allan jones

    The teeming masses of immigrants and their progeny who now huddle in our inner cities are largely irreducible. They could never be assimilated even if we, or they, wanted it. Their numbers increase prodigiously. The religion of many of them, Islam, which has the meaning of submission, is better fitted to unthinking obedience to religious authority than to the mindset of a freeborn man or woman, perhaps particularly a woman. We now know that some of them, perhaps few at the moment, encompass the destruction of all we hold dear. And we know that they are prepared to countenance the most extreme acts of random terrorism to get what they want. What we do not know, as yet, is the level of support, tacit and active, that they can expect in their “communities”.
    Will we just sit back then and throw away the unique achievement and sacrifice of many centuries, supinely casting ourselves into a new Dark Age, through folly and self-delusion? Or will we be worthy of our history and ancestry and rise to this new, deadly challenge? Remember the writings of Gildas – the past has much to teach and it casts a long shadow.

  • Dave Nalle

    Allan, I have to say that you certainly have put your finger on the heart of the problem – the whole situation originates with the liberal elite in Britain, their worship of political correctness and their disregard for free speech and basic civil rights.

    That said, the answer to the problem of the immigrant population STILL isn’t racism and hatred towards the immigrants. They aren’t the real problem, the liberals are.


  • allan jones

    Dave, I don’t hate these people, and neither do the BNP, they and I simply want British culture and traditions, which are admired by the majority, not to be sneered at and undermined by the ruling elite, who have an agenda to promote “multiculturalism”, which doesn’t work, above the wishes of the indigenous population

  • allan jones

    [Entire comment deleted. Whichever coward wrote the words I deleted was not Mr Jones and identity fraud is not currently tolerated. Comments Editor]

  • **GODWIN’s LAW****

  • gonzo marx

    [Entire comment deleted]


  • allan jones

    who spoke for me in 115 above? I didnt say that

  • Allan is innocent – the person who made the idiotic Hitler comment is actually the same person as James from #100. Not terribly sporting to make a bogus comment under someone else’s name like that.


  • gonzo marx

    if such is the case..i stand Corrected and retract the snark i made earlier…

    fair enough?


  • Trust in my special editor powers, Gonzo. He didn’t do it.

    BTW, is Godwin’s law named after my old amigo Mike Godwin from the EFF?


  • Identity fraud should not be tolerated and, as I can confirm the words were not those of Mr Jones, they are stricken. I declare this a false Godwin!

  • gonzo marx

    Christopher..then plz remove my #117..since it would look bad on somone who did nothign wrong to leave it



  • I’m trying out a new technique, kindly suggested by Richard Brodie, so as not to disrupt the numbering references. Like it?

  • Dave Nalle

    It’s okay with me. Better than word by word deletions followed by editorial commentary.


  • paul temperton

    (1) Allan Jones, if the use of the union flag is frowned on it’s not because it might offend ethnic groups but because it has long been hijacked for their own purposes by nazis like the BNP and, before them, the National Front. People are put off from embracing the flag as a symbol of national unity because of this unfortunate association of ideas. I would like to see an effort to rehabilitate the flag as a symbol of genuine British values.

    (2) It’s not altogether true that anyone who criticises multiculturalism is dismissed as a racist. Trevor Phillips has criticised it, and he is the chairman of the Equal Opportunities Commission (and, as it happens, he is black). I, like him, favour the idea of trying to integrate people into a melting pot. You state that “the vast majority” of immigrants have no desire to integrate. Actually, I think “the vast majority” of them have long done so. There are clearly problems with a few who won’t, but it seems to me a grotesque exaggeration to claim that Enoch Powell’s silly predictions have come true.

    (3) Dave Nalle, with respect I think you greatly overestimate the danger of the BNP. To use their existence as a reason for not living in the UK seems to me utterly bizarre. For at least 60 years there has been an irreducible 5% or so who will at times vote for the extreme right in a small number of areas. Of course, it suits the purposes of the left to talk this up. But the overwhelming majority of people can see that they are pathetic crackpots.

    (4) Also it is wildly irrational to refuse to live in the UK because of threats of terrorism, as somebody says much higher up on this page. The likelihood that you will be on the next train or bus to be blown up is statistically infinitessimal. You are far more likely to be knocked down by a speeding motorist on your walk to the station.

    (5) I do, though, agree with you (DN) that the Blair regime’s authoritarian tendencies are alarming, and that freedom of speech, a central tenet of the values of the European Englightenment that are at the real heart of our culture, is seriously under threat. We must fight against this on every front, and not run away from it. But I seem to read a lot of people saying just the same about the post-9/11 USA, which may be even more alarming, since true democratic values — though much more securely entrenced in the constitution — have long seemed to me to be less widely supported there in actual practice, contrary to the received wisdom: racial apartheid in the South within living memory, the McCarthy-era witch-hunts, and all those Republicans who support democracy only when it works in their favour (or who rig it so that it appears to do so, as in the hanging chads debacle in Florida), and the crazed christian fundamentalists who, like all fundamentalists, lack any commitment to underlying democratic values; there seem to be an awful lot of them and they are frighteningly close to the current regime.

    (6) Whatever the BNP nazis and their ilk may say, I don’t think many people would be happy to go back to the all-white Britain of the 1950s that I grew up in. It was a narrow-minded, intolerant, smug and snobbish era. The arrival of a wider range of cultures has hugely improved day-to-day life. Think Indian and Chinese restaurants, think Asian corner shops that handily remain open in the evening. I marvel at the bustling kaleidoscope of different communities living happily together in my area (Elephant & Castle).

    (7) Crime is not through the roof. The numbers are actually considerably down.

    (8) More generally, DN’s initial post unfortunately set the tone for the rest of this page with a degree of pessimism about the UK that seems to me altogether out of kilter with the reality as experienced by most of us who actually live there. There is far too much whingeing going on. Of course there are things to complain about, as there always will be, but many aspects of life have improved out of all recognition. May I recommend everyone to read Polly Toynbee’s excellent piece, “Life Is Good”?

  • allan jones

    Paul, it’s hardly “5% or so in a small number of areas” who vote for the BNP. They recently came second to either Labour or Conservatives in many areas,and their total vote near 200,000 in the UK. This might not sound alot but they are rapidly becoming more popular as peeple can see through the lies and distortions in the media abou them being just a bunch of fascist thugs

    Many people can see that they are the only party that will not be afraid to speak for the majority, and uphold Britih values and traditions

  • paul temperton

    Allan Jones claims that the BNP is “the only party that will not be afraid to speak for the majority, and uphold Britih values and traditions”.

    These people have a rare nerve. Let’s remember that THE defining event in modern British history was the 1939-45 war, which my parents’ generation fought against precisely the kind of ideas that the BNP now puts forward. It was a close call. The Nazis got within shouting distance of destroying our nation and the whole of Europe. With the aid of our allies we won in the end. Victory came at huge and lasting cost to the country and its people — but the poison of totalitarianism was defeated.

    Now Allan Jones has the brass neck to claim that the Nazis’ ideological descendants in the BNP are “upholding British values and traditions”. Sir, you are a disgrace to the name of Britain and you should be ashamed of yourself.

  • Dave Nalle

    As I pointed out earlier, Allan, you’re quite right about the BNP turnout. The reason they’re only 5% nationwide is that they only ran candidates in 1/10th of the possible elections. Their turnout in those areas where they actually had candidates was much higher – typically in the 20-35% range. If they ran candidates who did just as well in every one of the thousand+ council elections they’d be a force to be reckoned with all over the nation.


  • paul temperton

    Dave, you’re missing one rather elementary point. The reason why the BNP ran in only 10% of constituencies is that those are the only constitutencies where they have any support at all! Britain is very far from politically homogeneous. Their support is concentrated in a tiny number of pockets, some of them places where the extreme right has done relatively well ever since the 1930s (a few bits of east London, odd patches of inner Essex, a couple of towns in the northern part of the west midlands) and even there, only very patchily, if you look at the individual results by constituency. Their only relatively new source of support is one or two of the decaying mill towns straddling the Lancashire/Yorkshire border, where high unemployment coincides with an exceptional density of muslim immigrants. Altogether, there are 3 or 4 constituencies (out of 630!) where the BNP polled anything above 6%. In most places where they stood, they got 2 or 3%.

    Trust me on this – nobody in touch with British politics thinks for a moment that the BNP is anywhere close to a breakthrough. They are what the extreme right has always been since the days of Oswald Mosley – a white-trash protest vote and a minor irritant on the fringe. I say again, if you ask any sane person in the UK whether the existence of the BNP even begins to enter into their thoughts when contemplating how good or bad Britain is as a place to live, they will laugh in your face. It’s just a completely preposterous idea.

  • Dave Nalle

    Paul, the BNP argues differently. They argue that procedural obstacles were put in the way of many of their candidates.

    I suspect the truth is somewhere inbetween. They only had so many people presentable enough to run – they’re a small party – so they put them in the spots where they would do the best. Makes good sense. But if they ran candidates in every race and got say 5% everywhere and 30-40% in selected spots then they would still poll significantly on a nationwide basis.

    As for the BNP detracting from life in Britain, that wasn’t the point of the article. The point is that throttling freedom of speech detracts from the quality of life.


  • Dave Nalle

    BTW. there IS good news about the case and about the British court system. On every charge the defendants got either a ‘not guilty’ or a hung jury result when the jury returned findings on Tuesday.


  • Dave Nalle

    Of course, the downside is that the BNP got an awful lot of positive press out of this. But maybe they’ll use this as an opportunity to grow up a little as a party. Unlikely. More likely they’ll see the result as vindication of their racism.


  • paul temperton

    Yes, of course the BNP argues differently. They would, wouldn’t they? But their argument about procedural obstacles is pathetic nonsense. Elections in the UK (run by highly respected independent non-political public servants, unlike in the USA) are just about the cleanest in the world. (I’m talking about the administrative arrangements, not the voting system, which is outrageously undemocratic, but that’s a different debate.)

    I’m sorry I misunderstood the point of your original piece. I broadly agree with you about freedom of speech. It’s very topical right now, with the row over the Danish anti-muslim cartoons. We secular European-enlightenment liberals don’t carry conviction in saying that Danish newspapers can say what they like aobut muslims under freedom of speech, when several European countries have laws that prevent freedom of speech on certain specific issues, however historically understandable, e.g. the law against holocaust denial for which the idiot David Irving is currently remanded in Austria, thus giving him the martyrdom he craves, just as the BNP leader would have done if the prosecution to which you allude had gone the other way.

  • Emma789

    You are correct I don’t want to be stuck in this buggered up country any longer. When I earn the money I hope to move abroad somewhere nice where politicians don’t mess up everytime they come into power.