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Must Keep Pressure On Senate Against Amnesty

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The Senate bill that would have made millions of ILLEGALS legal with the stroke of a pen has been pulled off the table for a while. There are many who say that it is dead but that is not the case. Those in the Senate, from both parties, who want this bill are going to try and ram it down our throats. I heard them on the news all day Friday talking about how the bill will be back and they will get this done.

We can not let up on them. We must continue to call them and continue to let them know that we are not happy with this bill. They need to know that a smile and a wink from them along with reassurances that they will do the right thing is not enough any more. The American public does not believe what the Congress tells us and for very good reason, they lie. Every time they push a bill down our throat it ends in a disaster and it ends with billions of dollars wasted. This happened in 1965 and 1986 when immigration amnesty bills were passed (each sponsored by Ted Kennedy) and we were promised that these would end ILLEGAL entry into our country. In the 1980s there were four million ILLEGALS and now there are at least three times that many. It looks like their promises were empty once again.

If the Congress of the US wants us to buy into these things they are going to have to earn our trust once again. They, especially those on the left, love to tell us that the President has low approval ratings but the ratings of Congress are lower than the President’s. This is a clear indication that America does not trust Congress to do a good job and does not feel Congress is currently doing a good job. This is because time and again Congress fails to do a good job. They introduce bill after bill and enact more and more laws. They need to understand that it is OK not to introduce new legislation. They need to understand that they are not there to make laws for the sake of making laws and that when they do make some law it has to be simple, needed, and enforceable without screwing millions of taxpayers. This is a hard thing for them to do.

If the Congress wants to gain our trust they need to show us they are serious about securing our border. They keep talking about how this bill will accomplish that but the fact is the first thing they will do is strip the provisions that secure the border. Then they will strip the penalty portions and we will end up with amnesty and a still unsecured border. The Senate needs to introduce a bill that requires a wall be built to secure the border between the US and Mexico. We need that done FIRST because we do not trust them to do it last. I would bet that if they put a check box on the tax forms to allow $5 be added to a person’s taxes or deducted from their refund to finance a wall, millions of people would do that so long as the money was strictly dedicated to building the wall. In order to gain our trust they must also have an accurate method for employers to verify the status of an applicant. Any employer caught hiring ILLEGALS must be fined $10,000 PER ILLEGAL employee and ILLEGALS captured must spend 90 days in jail before deportation.

One more thing that will gain our trust is for Congress to revisit the 14th Amendment and ensure that the original intent of the Amendment is carried out and that is people born to non-citizens of the US are NOT citizens of the US and we need to revoke all the citizenships that have been given based upon the erroneous ruling by the SCOTUS and by the misapplication of the 14th. The people who wrote it clearly intended it to mean that a person born to parents who had an allegiance to someplace other than the US were NOT citizens. We must clear this up so that we can stop the jackpot babies from being born here.

After Congress earns our trust by doing these things (which will curb and reduce the number of ILLEGALS here) then we can discuss guest worker programs and what to do with those remaining here. Any provision must include a cut off date so that any ILLEGAL who has not come forward by that date will automatically be permanently ineligible for legal status in this country and will be deported. It must include a provision so that any person caught here after being deported spends time in a jail.

If Congress truly wants reform they need to stop giving us lip service and do the right thing no matter how tough it is. They need to gain our trust again and they need to understand that they work for us not the other way around. They also need to know that those who support the bill in its current form will be a target in the next election. John McCain is already toast and while part of the reason is because he has gone bonkers, his undying support for his bill has been his undoing and he will not be in the Presidential race much longer.

There are others who will be in real danger of losing their jobs in the next election because there is a groundswell and it is going to be like a tsunami by the time November of next year rolls around. If B. Hussein Obama thinks that there is a quiet riot boiling in the black community, he should stick around to see the not so quiet riot in the next election if this bill is reintroduced and passed. George Bush is not running again but there are many of them who are and they are going to pay for this.

If these Bozos need some lessons on how to be tough then they can contact any number of constituents who will be happy to help but I think my plan as outlined above is a great start. And I did that without a lobbyist (or in Kennedy’s case, a bottle or two of scotch)…

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About Big Dog

  • Well, this is one of the m ost offensive nativists rants I’ve read in a while.

    ‘Jackpot Babies’? Could you be more of a racist?

    How long is a wall really going to do the job? Over it, under it, fucking through it – if there’s a desire to get into the country they’ll find a way.

    We’re already wasting insane amounts of money on the war on terror and the war on drugs. Let’s flush even more on building an utterly pointless and mostly symbolic wall so we can feel like the master race in our little fortress of solitude.

    When you let hatred override all common sense you just become ridiculous.


  • Alec

    Big Dog — An odd post. It’s interesting that you rail against the Congress, and yet seem to be in complete denial that George Bush championed this plan from the beginning, and has always pushed for a “comprehensive immigration reform” that would in effect be a de facto amnesty. It is also typical that you slam Ted Kennedy, but give John McCain and all the Republicans who voted for this bill a pass.

    Calling and writing Congress is OK, if largely a waste of time. What has had a more significant impact is the refusal of many die-hard Republicans to contribute to the party as long as the party refuses to offer realistic immigration proposals. What is even more interesting here, is that corporate contributions have increased, further reinforcing the hard fact which many conservatives refuse to acknowledge, that the GOP cares far more about narrow business interests than it does about ordinary citizens. And for those who are a little slow on the uptake, being in favor of free markets is not the same thing as capitulating to big business.

    By the way, the notion that you have magically figured out the original intent of the 14th Amendment is hilarious. In any event, a constitutional amendment is the most difficult, more time-consuming, and least-likely proposal that would ever be adopted with respect to immigration reform. Don’t hold your breath.

    Dave – re: Well, this is one of the m ost offensive nativists rants I’ve read in a while.

    I agree that some of this is beyond the pale. But what I find interesting is that those who want to paint some anti-immigration people as racist or narrowly nativist absolutely refuse to acknowledge some of the more noxious statements by the de facto open borders crowd, and the implications of current immigration trends. For example, Southern California cities such as Bell and Santa Ana are becoming blatantly anti-black and increasingly anti-Asian, and officials refuse to enforce anti-discrimination laws. Increasingly, Latino politicians are openly declaring that their primary constituents are Latinos, whether US citizen or not.

    De facto amnesty programs and the proximity of the Mexican border give Latinos a huge advantage under all the immigration proposals that I have seen, and it seems to me that any immigration reform proposal that benefits Latinos excessively, over Asians, Africans, and anyone else is blatantly racist.

  • Results of a new statewide Zogby poll in Florida indicate that fully 60% of likely voters in this state are in favor of legalization.

    Conducted on behalf of, and published in today’s Miami Herald, the results of the poll are similar to those of other, national polls, according to pollster John Zogby.

    The article notes:

    “Zogby said one of the surprising results was that a majority of black likely voters contacted statewide expressed support for legalization, even taking into account the margin of error of eight percentage points for that subgroup. As the debate has unfolded, some black leaders have voiced concern that foreign workers might take jobs and depress wages for blacks.

    The statewide poll of 801 likely voters, conducted June 4-6, has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points. Zogby also oversampled in South Florida, polling 407 likely voters in Miami-Dade, Broward, Monroe and Palm Beach counties, and those findings have a margin of error of five percentage points.

    In South Florida, 61 percent of all likely voters polled agreed that immigration revisions should include a path to citizenship for most illegal immigrants who have no criminal record, pay a $5,000 fine and wait their turn behind legal immigrants to apply for permanent U.S. residency. Statewide, 60 percent agreed.”

    Obviously, a large majority of Floridians (and, according to the article a majority of Americans) disagree with you, Big Dog.

  • bliffle

    What percentage of Floridians are hispanic?

  • Bliffle, that’s only a slightly higher number than nationwide figures, so I’m not sure the percentage of hispanics makes much difference. Multiple polls over the past year have indicated a majority of the country supporting ‘amnesty’ and an overwhelming majority in favor of a guest worker program.


  • Interesting thing about hat Miami Herald article. They include the poll info, and a single quote from someone who agrees with the majority in the poll, followed by almost a page of quotes from people who disagree with the majoritty. Gives you an idea which way that paper leans.


  • This issue really does seem to bring out the worst and ugliest in some folks. And Lou Dobbs and various talk radio hosts are happy to fan the flames.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Interesting that Big Dog insists on writing the word ILLEGAL in all caps. Is it:

    a) because he wants to be sure that we know who the BOOGEYMAN is;
    b) for the same reason the word GOD used to be written in all caps in old Bibles?

    I know what my guess would be.

  • daryl d

    I hardly believe that most people feel that there should be a “blanket” amnesty. That is a huge mistake. Allowing SOME to become legal is fine with me, but the Senate plan is pathetic.

  • Polls can be manipulated and they can be wrong. Seems to me the 2004 exit polls showed John Kerry as the winner. 801 people in Florida hardly represent the country and, as one earlier comment asked, how many Hispanics are in Florida?

    Poll 1000 American citizens in Arizona, Texas, and other border states that have been infiltrated the most and ask them what they think.

    I use ILLEGAL to differentiate from undocumented and to stress the point in the question “what part of illegal do you not understand”?

  • Dave in comment #1.
    Perhaps you should take your own advice except when dealing with an issue try not to let your emotions get the best of you.

    You can call jackpot baby a racist statement but prove that it is racist rather than an accurate portrayal of how the 14th Amendment is abused by ILLEGALS to hit the jackpot.

    We have spent 1/2 a trillion dollars on the war and 13 trillion on poverty. We still have the same level of poverty so cry a river somewhere else about wasting money.

    Our country is being invaded and we refuse to enforce the law. You can see nothing wrong with that but I do. We need laws to be enforced and we need our border secured. Since all the damned border agents get put in jail by jackass lawyers while criminals run free the answer is obviously not more agents.

    People need to stop suffering from cranial rectitis and see what is happening. This has nothing to do with the color of their skin, if they were coming in from Canada I would feel the same way.

    The fact is, this is how many civilizations fell and we are signing our own death warrant. If you are ever on a date with your wife and a few MS 13 gang members rape both of you and kill her before your eyes while lighting both your bodies on fire or slitting your throats to watch you bleed to death I hope you will take comfort in knowing that people like you let them stay rather than putting them behind bars, deporting them, or better yet preventing their entry.

    Maybe you are right, a wall might not do it but a wall was effective in Berlin and it is helping Israel. Good fences make good neighbors.

  • zingzing

    how is this any different than your last entry? it’s becoming a running joke. sure, there are problems with the immigration bill. plenty of them. like getting passed, etc. but your solutions are laughable. a wall?! a fucking wall? which scares you more… a big old desert, filled with men carrying guns who like to shoot brown-skinned folks, or… a wall. what, like berlin? is that what you want? and no, you cannot have my $5 for some stupid fucking wall. put it to a vote. let’s see how many americans want a wall. that way, we can figure out the general i.q. of the country while we’re at it as well. a wall… jesus christ…

    look, i’m not saying you’re dumb. but your idea here (and the grammar in the post) are really, really bad. and you can stop with your “voice of the people” bullshit as well. you might talk for your cronies at the gunclub, but you don’t sound like the voice of reason to a majority of people in the united states.

    a wall… haha. oh my.

  • zingzing

    oh jesus… you do want a berlin wall. a 700 mile long berlin wall. in the desert. wonderful. crackers.

  • Poll 1000 American citizens in Arizona, Texas, and other border states that have been infiltrated the most and ask them what they think.

    Actually, they HAVE polled them, and they favor legalization for illegals and a guest worker program at about 8% higher than the general population. See my forthcoming article on this subject for details.

    Perhaps you should take your own advice except when dealing with an issue try not to let your emotions get the best of you.

    I challenge you to point out anywhere in my many posts on this subject that I’ve ever used an emotional appeal of any sort. I’m not heavily emotionally invested in this issue, unlike most of you nativists.

    You can call jackpot baby a racist statement but prove that it is racist rather than an accurate portrayal of how the 14th Amendment is abused by ILLEGALS to hit the jackpot.

    It can be accurate and still be racist and inflammatory. It suggests a motivation to the parents of the child which is not established or provable. I probably shouldn’t have used the term ‘racist’ since most mexicans aren’t all that racially distinct from an awful lot of Americans. But it’s certainly an offensive, nativist slur.

    We have spent 1/2 a trillion dollars on the war and 13 trillion on poverty. We still have the same level of poverty so cry a river somewhere else about wasting money.

    And let’s not forget the war on drugs. But the real point is that I’m against wasting money on ALL of these bad ideas, including a retarded border fence. You just pick and choose based on your prejudices.


  • Big Dog says;

    “how many Hispanics are in Florida?

    Poll 1000 American citizens in Arizona, Texas, and other border states that have been infiltrated the most and ask them what they think.”

    Want your cake and eat it, too?

    There are (as the article says) about 1,000,000 LATINOS (NOT “Hispanics,” none of them are from Spain) in Florida; total pop. 18M.

  • Zing, then don’t check the box.

    What would you have us do to secure the border? Do you lock your doors at night and when you are not home or do you leave them open? If you came home and found someone in your house eating your food, watching your TV and using your shower would you call the police or would you ask them to leave? What would you do if they said they had a right to be there and you had no say in the matter?

    As for this post, you can disagree with the content but would you mind pointing out the grammatical errors to which you refer? I might have missed a comment here or there and I am sure there is a run on sentence but I would really be interested in you pointing out those errors and please, since I might just be dumb, explain why they are errors.

    Just help this knuckle dragger out a bit.

    Oh, and one more favor. Please take that against brown skinned people crap and stuff it in a warm, smelly place. That is not the argument here and calling people a racist does not make it so and it takes away from your argument.

    Let me make it clearer for you: I don’t give a damn what color they are, if they are ILLEGAL they are ILLEGAL.

  • I do not doubt that a large number of people think that we need to do something, I doubt the majority thinks it is amnesty. Recent polls (and I admit they can be manipulated) indicate nearly 90% of Americans do not believe this bill will stop or even curb illegal immigration and that it will cost a lot of money.

    Clavos, the definition in my Webster’s says that Latino and Hispanic are synonymous.
    Latino: a person of Latin-American origin living in the United States

    Hispanic: of, relating to, or being a person of Latin American descent living in the United States; especially : one of Cuban, Mexican, or Puerto Rican origin

  • zingzing

    “What would you have us do to secure the border?”

    make legalized immigration beneficial to both the country and those who wish to immigrate. there is no stopping it immigration, legal or illegal. we might as well benefit from it. a wall won’t change a thing.

    “Do you lock your doors at night and when you are not home or do you leave them open?”

    i lock them. i live in a city. what?

    “If you came home and found someone in your house eating your food, watching your TV and using your shower would you call the police or would you ask them to leave?”

    i don’t expect to find such a thing.

    “What would you do if they said they had a right to be there and you had no say in the matter?”

    depends on if they had a gun or were bigger than me. are you saying that my apartment is a metaphor for the country at large? because i have no ownership over america… and i don’t keep my stuff all over america… and america cleans and dirties itself without me.

    nah, i’m not going to go through and edit your writing. that’s up to you and the editors. there are, however, many errors. that part’s up to you, but i do count 10 basic grammatical errors in the first 2 paragraphs, including a pretty horrible spelling error.

    “Please take that against brown skinned people crap and stuff it in a warm, smelly place. That is not the argument here and calling people a racist does not make it so and it takes away from your argument.”

    ha! oh, my. i didn’t call you a racist. i have my opinions on that, but i didn’t say “big dog, you are a racist,” now did i? nope. i said that people carrying guns who like to shoot brown-skinned folks in a desert are more threatening than a wall could be. and those minutemen, especially those that wander in the desert with a great desire to shoot a mexican, are certainly racists. i was pointing out the racists and the desert and the guns… as dangerous and threatening to any mexican trying to enter illegally.

    so shove that up your butt. happy?

  • zingzing

    or analogy.

  • Nancy

    Never heard the term “jackpot babies” before; how is it possibly racist? Isn’t that what these are: a jackpot for the parents to get a wedge into staying? This aspect of the constitution has been grossly abused & I agree entirely it ought to be shut down, altho I doubt retroactive revocation of citizenship will ever be considered, let alone enacted, given the current craven behavior of the maggots on Capitol Hill & in the WH. BD, you’re very silent on the fact that your boy, Junior, is the primary proponent of this amnesty & open borders – mainly I suspect because it benefits so many of his contributors/backers/cronies so much. He as good as announced yesterday that when he gets back he intends to be the one doing the ‘ramming’ down everyone’s throats.

  • Jerry

    Zing Zing –

    Had to call you on that last paragragh. I don’t recall reading or hearing much at all about brown skinned people getting shot along the border except by other brown-skinners. However B.P. Officers Jose Campeon and Ignacio Ramos, also brown, are serving jail time for their illfated attempt at stopping a drug runner.

  • zingzing

    there are many links between the minutemen and racism. google it.

  • Jerry

    Nancy, you got it right again. I heard a radio talk show host try to blame the failure of the immigration bill on Harry Reid because he tabled it.

    It is really the “fault” of the American people. We caused it to “fail” because we are finally getting wise to the strategies of the congressmaggots, who are afraid to shove it down our throats. I’m sure they will regroup with a fresh supply of PK Jelly though.

    We can thank “W” for at least this one thing: He is teaching us to never trust the gov’t to look out for our best interests.

  • Jerry

    I’m talking about shooting people Zing, not hating them.

  • zingzing

    and i’m talking about what’s more threatening, not body counts.

    that said, i don’t want to add to any conspiracy theory nonsense, but i wouldn’t be at all surprised to find bullet holes in some of those that “expire” in the desert… and i’m sure there are quite a few shallow graves out there.

  • Nancy,
    I have taken the President and the Congress to task on this issue. There is no silence. The writing on that is at my site and this is one area where I have been disappointed in the president. There are others but this is the biggest issue as far as I am concerned.

    The president can not ram it down our throats unless Congress rams it down our throats. We need to keep Congress from sending him a bill.

  • Zing,
    I fail to see a spelling error and the grammar in the first two paragraphs is fine. All subjects and verbs appear to agree in quantity and the words appear in the correct order.

    If it is up to the editors then don’t bring it up.

    You phrase your statements as if the issue is the color of the people’s skin. This assumes facts not in evidence. The fact that most of them have brown skin is a coincidence. If we were being invaded from the north what would you call people who fought against that?

  • zingzing

    sigh. america has always had immigrants, legal or illegal. there have always been troubles. all we have now is some politician made this a big “issue” (read: political) so that they could get elected and it blew up.

    have any of you ever been to vancouver, bc? it’s getting very asian up there. as a consequence, you can get some damn fine japanese food, there are 19-year-old asian girls with bad teeth running around getting drunk, lots of hello kitty shops and a CONSTRUCTION BOOM the size of a small american city. ain’t no one complaining.

    before the current latino immigration boom, it was eastern europeans, and before that, the “fucking” irish. you can quite nearly substitute the word “latino” for “irish” or “slavic” in the history books and see THE SAME FUCKING THING happening all over again, word for word. “they come here to take our jobs!” “the come here and commit crimes!” “they bring their catholic hordes of children with them!”

    good god, people… you should know when you are beat. you are just standing in the way of history and a bit of tax collection. get over your (white, as you know you are,) self!

  • Alec,
    As I pointed out to Nancy, I have taken the President to task. I don’t write a lot here, I write it at my site. You can search there and see where I have discussed this. I have also discussed big business, and all the other things that people ignore when they try to paint people with a broad brush.

    It is easy to say that someone has not done something based upon a post at a site that is not his, read more of people’s work before making a general statement.

    Bush is limited to 8 years. Ted Kennedy gave us the last two immigration bills and they have resulted in disaster. He has been in Congress for nearly 45 years, this is a problem.

  • zingzing

    “I fail to see a spelling error and the grammar in the first two paragraphs is fine.”


    “If we were being invaded from the north what would you call people who fought against that?”

    we aren’t being invaded from anywhere. but if we were being invaded from the north, i suppose i would call them… i dunno… bear-haters or something like that. there are people up north? ha. them’s nothin but americans with hard nipples and a fucking queen.

  • Yeah Zing, get over your white self is not meant to imply people are racists.

    America might not be your home but it is my home and I want this to be done in accordance with the law. Not some BS bill handed down. Huge fines for employers and jail time for those caught sneaking in after being deported.

    We can use those we caught to build the wall.

  • “The president can not ram it down our throats unless Congress rams it down our throats. We need to keep Congress from sending him a bill.”

    Good luck with that. The majority of AMERICAN people (especially those with brown skins) favor giving those folks “legal” status.

  • zingzing

    “Yeah Zing, get over your white self is not meant to imply people are racists.”

    heh. well, you’re white aren’t you?

    if there is one non-white person on here arguing for a wall to keep the latinos out, please raise your hand. or make a comment. something.

    “America might not be your home but it is my home”

    it’s my home, but i don’t pretend to own it.

    “I want this to be done in accordance with the law.”

    then make a law that works. not a wall, because that won’t do one fucking thing and you know it.

    “Huge fines for employers and jail time for those caught sneaking in after being deported.”

    ha! let’s see that happen. good luck. how’s dreamland? you notice how the government is trying to side-step that little “huge fine for employers” bit? that’s because IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

    “We can use those we caught to build the wall.”

    what? put them to work? they’d have to work on the southern side. or would we just do it nazi-style, all forced labor and all that? yip! caught ya, tu bandito pequeno! har har!

  • If you are pointing out that CANNOT is spelled incorrectly then you are incorrect. Cannot is a correct spelling and is sometimes separated into Can Not. Webster indicates the one word spelling is the most common though it might not be now (the book is older) but all references indicate this is a correct spelling as does the MS spell checker and the Google spell checker.

  • Then like I said, we need to replace them. These are laws that will work. No law, of course, will work, if it is not enforced. We have laws, let’s enforce them and see how that works first.

  • Dr Dreadful

    #31, #35: I’m with the Dog on this one. there’s no grammar or spelling error, and style-wise it’s also perfectly sound. True, “cannot” is usually contracted into one word, but is just as correct split into two. In this instance, the writer was trying to emphasize his point, so the two-word version works better in that sense.

  • zingzing

    “can not” is an anachronism. you couldn’t pass a first grade spelling test with that.

    it’s also “anymore,” not “any more.”

    “The American public does not believe what the Congress tells us and for very good reason, they lie.”

    your subject-verb agreement is off, making the american public the liars.

    “Every time they push a bill down our throat it ends in a disaster and it ends with billions of dollars wasted.”

    you either need to take out one of the “it ends,” or put a comma in there.

    “Those in the Senate, from both parties, who want this bill are going to try and ram it down our throats.”

    nothing going right here.

    …i could go on. nearly every sentence (at least in the first two paragraphs,) is in need of a rewrite for clarity, comma splices and/or punctuation issues. i’m sure you were in a hurry. i can tell you are passionate about this and it shows in your writing. sometimes, though, it just shows that you get sloppy when you hurry to publish something in your passion. i didn’t want to make a big deal out of it. i just said the grammar was bad.

  • Jerry

    Most Americans are in favor of seeing this problem dealt with through a combination of border security, which can and must be done, and some form of guest worker program to fill the jobs needed to keep the economy going. We are demanding enforcement of the laws once they are passed, and I think that betrayal will be political suicide for all those who fail us.

    Most Americans are leery of the hodge podge of amendments in this complex bill which reeks of another attempt to please special interests instead of fixing anything. The bill in it’s current state makes me as cynical as Zing Zing.

  • zingzing

    back to it then–i think the funniest part about the “americans will do any job there is” argument against our need for immigrant labor is that AMERICANS HAVE NEVER DONE THE MENIAL LABOR OF AMERICA!

    let’s see… first we enslaved the indians… then the blacks… then we gave those jobs to the irish, if they could get a job, then the poles and the finns and the chinese…

    but, you say, those people paid taxes! no goddamn slave paid no goddamn taxes! if the irish couldn’t get work (cause we were such big old racists), how were they paying taxes?! augh!

    americans have always used either immigrant or enslaved labor to do our dirty work. now we’re just getting all high and mighty about it.

  • daryl d

    By the way, the bill seems to attach some great system for border security. It also makes hiring illegals a punishable crime. But do you think our government will enforce this? I truly doubt it. By the way, these polls don’t say much because the questions are worded towards the results that are wanted.

  • I appreciate you pointing these things out though I dare say they would pass muster. It is a matter of style and while I freely admitted that I missed a few punctuation marks I am sure the balance is OK (and punctuation is not grammar).

    As you said, let us not make a big deal out of it. Suffice it to say you would have written it differently.

  • I actuality I think you meant to say that no slave paid taxes (yours is a double negative indicating that slaves indeed paid taxes), passion and grammar and all that.

    Slaves did not pay taxes because they were not paid and they were considered property. It is not a matter of jobs Americans will not do, Americans will not do the same jobs for the money illegals will.

    We also do not have enough Americans to do the jobs and thus a guest worker program, but not until we are secure. One other reason we do not have Americans doing these jobs is because the gubmint pays a class of people to sit on their ample asses and draw as much in welfare as they could working, so why work?

    I have never used any kind of labor slave or otherwise to do my job and some of them have been downright dirty.

  • Dr Dreadful

    I just think it’s a bit ironic you getting a lecture on grammar and spelling from someone who doesn’t capitalize the beginnings of any of his sentences!

  • zingzing

    i don’t capitalize anything. my left pinky is broken. has been for years. i keep on breaking it. i broke when i realized that every time i took a drink of beer, my pinky would stick out. so i broke it, and made sure that it healed all funny and bent inwards. but now i can’t count to ten. trade-offs.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Feeling good today I see, zing2?

    I don’t type with my pinky either. I manage about 60 words per minute using only both indexes. Have tried touch typing but since I have all the muscular coordination of Stephen Hawking on meth, that didn’t work out too well.

  • How many Hispanics are in Florida?

    Is this assuming that Cubans are NOT Hispanics?

    Because if they are (and ethnically, I’m pretty sure they are), the answer to your question is, probably more per capita than in Arizona, Texas, or other border states.

  • According to the Census Bureau, there are a total of approximately 3.5 million Latinos in Florida (as of 2005), which has a total population of just over 18 million.

    Of the 3.5 million Latinos, about one million are illegals and about 750,000 are Cuban born or Cuban descent.

  • STM

    Zing: you post above, re the pinky … fairly hard-core stuff there, old boy. Good to see people getting their priorities right, however 🙂

    I’m sure you’d be welcome Down Under anytime with a story like that. Very impressive mate!

    DD: I, too, am a two-fingered typist. And I make less mistakes and go faster than most of my touch-typing colleagues. It’s what I’ve been doing for 35 years, so I’m used to it. But all the newbies are touchies. Poofters …

  • “the muscular coordination of Stephen Hawking on meth…”

    Now there’s an image!!

  • Nancy

    In answer to Zing’s query, Zedd, I believe, is an ardent proponent of putting the kibosh on illegals. At least, she’s been pretty virulent about it on other threads – & she is NOT white! So, that takes care of that one.

    I have to stand w/BD on this one: I object to the ILLEGAL part of it. Not the ethnicity of the lawbreakers, because the lawbreakers I most want punished are the employers – almost all of whom are WHITE, upperclass, wealthy, & privileged. As is the wont of the wealthy & over privileged, they are the biggest tax cheats – & that includes employment taxes in all their forms. That covers not only the corporation that doesn’t have to pay quarterly employment & state unemployment taxes to either their illegal employees OR the government (941s & 940s, for those of you into those details), it also covers benefits they’d be legally required to cover as well. Tell me this doesn’t cheat not only the illegals who are virtual slave labor for these vultures, but also the taxpaying average American who has to make up the unemployment & other taxes not paid by these white, wealthy, privileged human lampreys, which the government still ends up forking out in some form or another? It also covers the farmers, especially the big Agricorps who employ illegals in hordes; they don’t have to contribute to their farm labor taxes – 943s. It covers the idle rich who employ nannies, maids, lawncare personnel, drivers, cooks, & general all-round slavies they can just pay bare wages to, without having to give these people medical, leave, or any other form of benefits – oh, and they get their employees taken care of by the hapless public, too. What a nice little extra; the money saved by screwing both Maria & the state out of taxes or benefits can pay for the week Samoa, or the new Lexus, now, can’t it.

    There’s nothing racist or shameful about insisting the damned laws be enforced, that illegals of ALL points of origin, be they the whitest of whites from northern Europe or the blackest of blacks from Nigeria or brownest of browns from Salvador, be removed, repatriated, & severely punished if caught trying to sneak in. There is most certainly nothing racist in insisting that the tax-cheating, arrogant, selfish (& frequently lazy) bastards who employ them be punished even more severely if caught with illegals in their employ, or aiding or abetting the same, since that makes them doubly criminal: once for encouraging crime, and again for criminal tax evasion. I’d be satisfied with simply deporting Pedro & Maria & their ilk, & consigning their white American employers to the pits of tax court hell, not to mention jail & hard labor for a good long term just to impress it on their memories & let their friends know what’s in for them should they ‘forget’ & hire illegal labor.

    And don’t tell me illegals pay taxes. Sales taxes we all have to pay at the register, yes, they do. Employment & other withholding taxes – hell, no. They don’t. Why? Because not having valid SSNs etc. they don’t have accounts. They don’t have unemployment, medical, or anything else withheld, either, yet they do very much make use of public tax-funded facilites. Here in the DC area, there are TWO hospitals about to tank because of almost exclusive use by the local hordes of illegals who have neither coverage nor money to pay for their care. And the hospitals are forbidden to ask for either status or payment. It’s posted right there in the entryway, in English & Spanish & a few other languages I don’t read. Anybody walking into the emergency room, can’t be asked for any kind of ID, nor can they be asked for payment of any kind. So the illegals use it as their primary care facility. Now both are millions in debt, & the public is being asked to ante up so they can continue to provide care, not only for the legit US citizens living in the area who need them but also for the illegals. Then there’s the schools…same song, next verse. Taxpayers are required to foot the bill to educate illegals’ swarms of spawn. But the illegals don’t pay taxes, either state or local, & certainly not property taxes, so they don’t contribute a cent to the running of the schools, which BTW not only have to educate these vermin, but also provide all kinds of extras like translators, special classes, etc. for them & their illegal parents.

    Then there’s the public housing & public assistance programs. Again, same song, next verse: illegals draw heavily on these services, require public housing, line up for food at the food banks & free clinics – but pay for NONE of it. And they not only drain the public facilities, they are almost exclusively the draws on the private ones as well, the churches etc. The catholic church encourages them because most illegals of hispanic origin at least are nominally catholic, & this means more clout for the RC church. Fortunately, some of the more intelligent protestant churches hereabouts are starting to bar the doors to illegals as far as social service programs go, in order to attend to the legitimate elderly & poor US citizens who need them too.

    Finally there’s the need for increased police & emergency personnel. At least one local county has nearly doubled their police force – almost entirely the extra budget going to cover translators & extra cops to handle the areas where ever these vermin congregate, because like it or not, illegal = crime, mostly violent crime including gangs, drugs, prostitution, burglary, you name it. I’ve seen it said on this site that illegals don’t commit crimes because they can’t afford to be high-profile. Bullshit. Far too many of them know good & well they’re as good as immune, & they just don’t care. They’ve created enclaves that are their turf, they know the MSM can be depended on to cry & weep for their plight should anyone be foolhardy enough to try to clean them out & the halfwit assholes of The Church will go to bat for them regardless of how destructive they are, how lawless they become, how out of control. I’ve likewise read comments by some claiming it isn’t illegals who are out there demonstrating & demanding their “rights”. Again, bullshit. When there was a huge rally on the Mall recently ref: immigration “rights”, it was illegals who were out in force. Far too many employers HAD to close or let them off, so their illegal workers could attend. A few of the mostly-illegal schools were also mostly empty, so the brats could join mama & poppa shouting about what they think they’re entitled to.

    Entitled? They’re entitled to nothing, except a fast one-way ticket back to where ever they came from. They came here in defiance of US law, spitting in the faces of US citizens, & worse, in the faces of those with enough respect, couth & law-abidingness to do it the legal way, no matter how tortuous, sheerly because they are selfish enough to figure they shouldn’t & don’t have to obey this law – or any other, nor do they have to respect others who are in line, or those already here. They just jump the line, & take what they want, exactly like home invaders, which is exactly what they are, regardless of point of origin. And that applies to illegals from asia, from hispanic countries, from europe, from africa.

    And it applies double & triple to those who even more knowingly break the law to encourage & employ them. Even more than the illegals themselves, these US citizens are even more culpable & should pay even more severely.

    Having gotten that rant out of the way, IMO it’s a pity Ted Kennedy didn’t drown at Chappaquiddick along with Ms. Kopechne. He started off well in the Kennedy mould by being caught plagarizing while in school, & his parents buying his way out of it, like they subsequently bought off the authorities after Chappaquiddick, & like he bought himself out of all the other (mainly sexual) scandals he’s gotten embroiled in over the years. I’m on the lefty side, & I consider him a zit on the face of decent liberals everywhere. He’s in congress because there’s nowhere else where a useless, incompetent, drunken, spoiled, stupid slob with tons of money would ever be tolerated for so long, if at all. He fits right in there, doesn’t he.

  • Nancy, I don’t believe a word of what you say about illegals, because my experiences with them are totally opposite from yours, and I live in a city full of them.

    And, my opinion is just as valid as yours (or Zedd’s, or BD’s, etc.)

    Oh, BTW, renters DO pay property taxes; they’re included in the rent. MY tenants do, I’m certainly not going to pay them myself, but I DO deduct them from my income tax – legally.

  • zingzing

    ahh, nancy… but will zedd stand up and say she wants our very own berlin wall? here?

  • Zedd


    As I have stated when responding to Nancy on another thread…

    I would propose that we have two walls built that are separated by a road for patrolling.

    What we need to do is establish a good guest worker plan.

    We need to fix our trade policies. Mexican farmers are being displaced by American farmers IN MEXICO. They come here not because they don’t love their homeland. They have to in order to survive.

    We need to set up a smart and equitable system for these people.

    There is not need to make everyone citizens automatically. We need to set up a system which allows people to meet the criteria of what we need in immigrants and in the numbers that we need them in. Its got to be a win for America, bottom line.

    Mexico needs to be held accountable. They receive funds from these workers which end up amounting to a sum that is #2 of the GDP.

    I am not against anyone. I am against a system that is setting us up for failure and will render us impotent and uncompetitive sooner than we imagine.

    We will loose our competitive edge if we allow this to continue unadjusted.

    We are waisting time talking about race and defending the good naturedness of these illegal immigrants. THAT NOT THE ISSUE. You waist time discussing it. We need to fix this problem.

    Unless you live in a city that has been heavily affected, you really don’t know what you are talking about.

  • Zedd


    Your opinion is certainly valid friend!

    What I read you doing is defending the honor of these people. You don’t need to Clavos.

    I don’t read you discussing solutions for this population. Even a wish list to solve this issue.

    Believe it or not, I am very sensitive about this issue and will not engage my neighbors about it because they tend to start sounding racist and I don’t want to have to pull our my spear :o) but online I feel at ease to discuss this matter in terms of articulating REAL problems and coming up with possibly viable solutions.

    I agree with the person who said that its not Bush or the politicians who are perpetuating this mess, its us. So its our responsibility to think our way through this, just as everything else.

    So when you say you disagree with me, you are saying you disagree with trying to come up with solutions for this problem.

    When I say I disagree with you, I am saying I disagree with pretending as if we don’t have a problem.

  • Jim

    Go Big Dog. I am a native Floridian and I obviously was not a part of that poll that is quoted as saying 60% of Floridians favor legalization of the 12-20 million illegals. No amnesty for illegal immigrants no matter what color or nationality!. The blame for this situation is a federal government under either party control that has encouraged this illegal immigration for heavily lobbied reasons. The reasons have never been in the best interest of America, just some pressure groups with a lot of money to grease palms. I believe the USA would be in just fine shape today without this influx of illegals. The current “comprehensive immigration reform” bill is not reform at all; it is just a replay of the 1986 debacle (thank you Ted K) except the number of lottery winners is much higher. The borders will not be secure, illegals will continue to stream across the border, employers will continue to smile and accept obviously phony documents (even provide them if necessary) just so they can make more bucks. Nothing will change except we will have an automatic 12-20 million more entitled people. We will immediately need 12-20 million more illegals to do the work that these “now entitled” citizens are no longer willing to do for so little now that they are legal. This follows the insane logic that the present illegals were necessary to do work that American citizens would not do.

  • Nancy #54,

    If you had read my previous comments on this topic, you would know that I am in favor of:

    First closing the border to further illegals (I don’t have a specific plan for that, the hardest part).

    Establishing a RATIONAL guest worker program that fills the needs of the country AND of the workers, registering them for it, and enforcing it. The present proposal for a “guest worker” program does none of those things.

    Allow the “anchor babies” already born to retain their citizenship, but stop automatically granting same to future children of guest workers AND to future children of LEGAL “green card” aliens (of ANY nationality) until and unless the parents (BOTH of them) become citizens.

    Do not EVER grant citizenship to the 12 million illegals who already here. NO exceptions, not even to the parents of US citizen children already born, as described above. Instead, allow those parents to remain as guest workers only until their children attain majority, then send them home, where if they wish to return, they take their place in line behind everybody else.

    I’ve written all of the above in previous comments on various threads dealing with the immigration problem, and as you can see, I’m willing to give less to the illegals than most folks who stop short of immediate deportation of everyone.

  • Zedd


    Wow. I’ve not read this from you. Interesting.

    Why not EVER grant citizenship to ANY of the illegal aliens?

  • Nancy,

    Two reasons:

    1. It sends the wrong message to everyone in the entire world who wants to come here; that all you have to do is get here, even illegally, and you WILL be granted citizenship.

    2. Why reward lawbreakers by making them citizens?

  • Nancy

    Clavos, I agree with you & wasn’t aware I had written anything to say I didn’t. Obviously you must have a different generic class of illegals, then, where you live, while up here we have all the dregs – or something. Everything I’ve cited has been documented extensivly by the W.P., W.Times, & other media on both sides of the aisle & the issue. Neither side disputes these, because they’re not opinions, they’re facts, backed up by social services, police, & hospital records.

    I would be interested to find out (but I don’t know how anyone could) who exactly were the people in the polls you cite. If these polls were taken in the middle of Little Havana, or some enclave of the wealthy who extensively depend on illegals as nannies, maids, etc. … well, the results would certainly lost quite a bit of their credibility, wouldn’t they? On the other hand, if they were taken in the middle of some other group – say an area mostly working-class black or white – I’d be willing to bet considerable that the results would NOT be so tolerant of granting amnesty to illegals. This is one reason why NO intelligent person ever relies on polls to prove anything. And yes, I know politicians use them constantly, for everything, but I DID specify “intelligent” people, which automatically lets out politicians & their hordes of camp followers.

  • Zedd


    Why are your responding to me through Nancy? Did I offend you more than usual? I hope you take my jabs as a joke. You seem to have a great sense of humor. I get you and find your jabs funny.

    If I did offend, apologies. Tell me the thread and I will take a looksie and make the appropriate amends if necessary.

    However if you are just sucking up to the Gringos, and being more punitive towards me because you consider me an easier target, pull yourself together man then bow facing the east (TX) and beg for forgiveness.

  • Nice Zedd,

    often disparaging : a foreigner in Spain or Latin America especially when of English or American origin;

    Often disparaging. However, I guess you could make the argument that since none of us are in Spain or Latin America you were not being disparaging to us. Since however the ILLEGALS are in this country perhaps we should use “often disparaging” words to refer to them. Something about a moist posterior comes to mind…

  • Zedd and Nancy,

    Please accept my apologies. I was, indeed, responding to Zedd, but thought I was responding to Nancy (twice no less!);

    I have no idea why, unless it’s the similarity of your names? :>)

  • As a Gringo myself, who was born in Mexico and who has lived in several different LatAm countries, I can tell you that it’s been several decades since “Gringo” has been used as a disparaging name. It IS widely used, but not maliciously, anymore.

    I certainly don’t take offense if referred to by a Latino as a Gringo, unless the context indicates that offense is intended.

    And Gringo NEVER had the connotation of the “N” word or various other racist epithets, even back in the 40s and 50s, when it first came into widespread use.

    The only exception would be if it’s preceded by “pinches.” :>)

  • Zedd




  • Zedd

    Big Dog


    I am aware that Clavos has, I believe, Scandinavian heritage (something super White…) on his maternal side and something else super White on his paternal side (if I recall properly). I also give him a hard time constantly. I think he’d be shocked if I didn’t. However, he knows that I like him and respect his contributions.

    He likes and respects my contributions too even if we disagree but wont ever say it. I can tell though.

    Now there….

  • Nancy, as we’ve discussed before, the domiant hispanic immigrant group in your area is Salvadorans. They’re a whole different deal from Mexicans, and many of them are there legally as political refugees. They’re much more involved in criminal activity as a group, and much less interested in working or fiting in with US society.


  • Zedd


    I think that Mexican illegals especially have been set up. Both governments are pushing them across the boarder. The policies that are set up force them (for the sake of survival) to make the trek. How many men would give up on their farms which go back for generations, and leave their wives and children to come and work in the HOT Texas sun working on other people’s land (lawns at that) being looked at by many as dumb, lesser men. Who wants that?

    They are being given a wink and a nod by both governments because the wealthy prevail from their dilemma.

    I think they should be given a chance for citizenship only if its like everyone else, no preferences.

    Also, there are illegals who came in to go to school and their governments have changed and they CANT go back home. Their visas have lapsed and its difficult to get amnesty. They got social security cards when there was no legal status notification on them so they work in corporate America and have been paying taxes the entire time. The doors should not be shut for them as well.

  • Zedd


    The issue of crime is real for Mexicans. Lets not ignore it or else we will not solve it.

    It is not caused by their nation of origin or their race. Its circumstance.

    1. Males left unattended (by family structure or women) will cut up. Australia imported women from England to cool the men down. They had become an unruly lot. When the women arrived (most were convicts too), Australia started forming into a country.

    2. A lot of children of illegal immigrants have to explain the American world to their parents. This disturbs the typical family structure. By the time the kids hit puberty, they become all the “wiser” and misuse their “autonomy” and get into trouble. They have overwhelmingly the highest drop out rate.

    3. Gangster youth cultures. All of these occurrences come at a time when being a gangster is thriving in youth society. The kids who have grown up with Dads who have been looked down upon and are raised feeling powerless, the gang is attractive.

    4. Some young men come from urban slums in Mexico. They are already introduced to “thug life”.

    5. Poverty and crime.

    A good guest worker program fixes a lot of this. Parents get to come and go, leaving their families home and seeing them at will. The kids get educated back home. The cycle ends.

    Young criminals are not allowed to come in with the guest worker plan.

    This cant take place without a wall. I say two.

  • I never took the word Gringo as offensive (though it is a disparaging word) because I don’t care what people say. However, since Dave started the comments with this being about the most racist post and since people here seem to think being opposed to ILLEGALS is about hating brown skinned people blah blah I thought I would point that item out.

  • Zedd,

    You make a good point, but, as Dave has mentioned before, most of the Mexicans, at least, don’t WANT citizenship; they want to work a few years, send money home, and then go back themselves.

    I’m not as familiar with the Central Americans as I am with the Mexicans, but I’d bet more than a few of them are of the same opinion.

    I do have a specific example: for about fifteen years, I had a Guatemalan secretary working for me here in the US. We worked for a Mexican company, and our work required bilingualism. She’s a wonderful lady: bright, hard working, and she and I made a great team together.

    Last year, after thirty years in the US, and with three grown American-born GRINGO children, she and her husband retired, and decided to return to Guatemala to live. Her kids are Americans (though they look like Mayas, because that’s what Mom and Dad are), and had NO interest in going to Guatemala to live, so they’ve stayed.

    The kids don’t even speak Spanish well; they have STRONG Gringo accents and mangle the syntax horribly. They (and the many similar Cuban families I know here in Miami) are the reason I KNOW the Latinos WILL assimilate in the second and third generations, just as all the immigrants before them have done.

    But I digress. Back to your comment:

    You’re right about a lot of the “overstayed visa” illegals; that is a knottier problem, and perhaps they should be allowed (maybe on a case-by-case basis) to enter a track towards eventual citizenship, if that’s their goal.

    Bear in mind, that because it’s dangerous to go home (in terms of being able to come back), many of the overstayed visa types stay, but would also prefer a legal temporary status with re-entry privileges, rather than citizenship.

  • Jerry

    Clavos –
    Puedecer somos gringos salados; pinche gringos no. Pero aqui en Nuevo Mexico me llaman gavacho.

  • Jerry,

    ¡Me gusta lo de “gringos salados!”

    No entiendo la palabra gavacho, y no aparece en mi diccionario Velazquez.

    ¿Cuál es su sentido?

  • Zedd


    I’ve also acknowledged that most Mexicans don’t want citizenship. Heck most immigrants want to go back home (having made it big). A lot of Americans don’t know that.

    Its for that reason that you expressed that I don’t think that everyone will want to go for citizenship. I think that illegal immigrants from this era should be considered for citizenship under the set rules (minus the family affiliation thingy). They are not criminals. They have been placed in an awkward situation where crossing the boarder is a “normalized” way to earn a living. One that has been “legitimized” by both countries. Like Dave said, its a don’t ask don’t tell, wink wink situation.

    I cant think of the many men that I have known well who are law abiding GOOD people, as criminals. They are people who have done the incredible. The journey to, say, Dallas is not an easy one to make. I am amazed at their valor, all for the sake of taking care of their families. When I see a good healthy gringo man begging on the street corner (sans mental illness)…..

    I understand more than anyone how quickly children of immigrants assimilate. Our accent and vocabulary changed in six months…. I impressed my teachers at first with my Britishlike accent… then Texas and “ain’t” happened… to my very proper mom’s chagrin and my relatives at home’s confusion…. sigh.

  • Zedd


    ¿Sí qué hace gavacho medio? Me pregunté cuando leí su poste, pero pensé que mi español era malo sólo.

    Espero que yo sea comprensible

  • Perhaps this will put it in perspective. Can anyone point to anything that shows ILLEGALS produce more than half a trillion dollars for our economy?

    With Social Security sinking fast this can only get worse.

  • “Can anyone point to anything that shows ILLEGALS produce more than half a trillion dollars for our economy?”

    Nope. it’s pointless to even try, not gonna convince you that those people have any value to the US anyway, so why bother?

    It doesn’t really matter, anyway, since no one’s going to round them up and ship them out.

  • reusha2000

    Question:Are Americans required to get the biometric card (LEGAL STATUS employment verification card) for employment? will homeland security process them?

  • Nancy

    Clavos, #62: probably because we look alike. 😉

  • Jerry

    Nancy/Clavos –

    Senor Clavos esta bien professional en Espanol, pero tu y yo, platicamos en “spanglish”. En todos modos esta mejor que los pinche gringos.

    Yo creo que “gavacho” es una parabla antigua, como muchas parablas de aqui que tiene la origin por la lengua de los Conquistadores de Espana vieja.

  • Jerry

    #79 For Zedd. Sorry again Nancy.

    Zedd – No tengas verguenza. Si no usa (la lengua) no vas aprender.

  • Nancy

    The rest of us don’t speak Spanish. Please have the courtesy to use English, which we all seem to have some capacity to use, to one degree or another. Using a “private” language is extremely rude, whether spoken or written. Thank you.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Para Inglés, oprimo la numero uno.

  • Senor Clavos,
    Usted se equivoca. Encuentro el valor en muchas personas incluso emigrantes ilegales.

    I know that many of the folks are hard working and do great jobs. That is not the issue or the debate. I did not write that that they were lazy bums, I wrote that they are ILLEGAL and that we will not stop the problem until we secure the border first.

    You get more of what you subsidize and as long as we keep granting amnesty and reward people for breaking the law we will get more law breakers. This has been shown because the 12-20 million here now are here as a result of the amnesty in 1986. We did not secure the border and this is what happened.

    Secure the border first and enforce existing laws. When, and only when that is doen we can discuss what to do with those who are living here. There should be no blanket anything and it should all be decided on a case by case basis. This way we keep criminals from becoming legal here and ensuring that the people who came here are worthy.

  • Jerry

    OK Nancy. Point well taken, but doesn’t this illustrate why a common primary language is not a side issue?

  • Zedd


    You are right. Sorry. I was just showing off and probably got it wrong.


    I bet we are tearing up the language. You are probably stunned, going, what are they saying?

  • Jerry

    No, Clavos has heard tourists tear it up before, he knows. He’s really a pretty smart feller.

  • Zedd didn’t one of you guys say something about Clavos speaking good Spanish but the others speaking Spanglish and something about the ?damn? gringos and how it messes with them? Something along those lines?