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Muslim Sensibilities? Please!

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Sunday May 1, 2011 was a great day in America and it should have been a great day for freedom-loving, peaceful, compassionate people all over the world. Why was Sunday May 1 such a great day for America and civilization? The world’s most wanted was killed. Shot dead! Removed from the land of the living. Sent off to receive his eternal punishment. His body fed to the fishes. Swallowed up in Davy Jones’s locker. Osama Bin Laden has left the planet for good. And that is a good thing.

Our military however was forced to give this murdering madman a 40-minute solemn Muslim ceremony out of respect for Muslim sensibilities. Well, I thought Osama Bin Laden was not recognized in the Muslim community as a Islamic figure. I thought he represented a “fringe” group of radical Muslims; therefore why should the mainstream Muslim community care a whit if one of these radical, religious zealots was eliminated from the planet? They should be cheering along with the rest of the world that this murdering madman was KIA. Apparently this is not the case. No one can do anything without first checking with a Muslim cleric to see if it is acceptable and does not offend their sensibilities.

I mean seriously, did we dignify Adolf Hitler with a fine Christian burial? I can understand respect for the dead, but for a madman who thinks so little of innocent human life that he ordered the mass murder of thousands on 9-11? I am sorry but I have very little respect for such a lowlife.

Should we pause every time we sentence a child killer or mass murderer to check and see how his family or religion feels about a death sentence? Should we give him a place of honor in our ceremonies? Should we make laws to be sure that we do not insult his sensibilities?

Where were the Muslim sensibilities to the thousands of innocent human lives snuffed out on 9-11? Why must the United States have to travel halfway around the world to take out their garbage? Why aren’t these peace-loving, sensitive, Isl?mic clerics outraged at the killing of innocent victims by a madman? Why is there no outcry from these Muslim Clerics to the mass murdering of Christians in their own backyards? Why are these nations not cleaning up their own houses before throwing stones at ours?

Do not give me this Muslim sensibilities nonsense. They showed no sensibility to the victims of 9-11 when they proposed a huge mosque be built in the shadow of Ground Zero. They did not bother to check with the victims’ families to see how they might feel about this huge Muslim presence on top of the ashes of their loved ones.

Why not release the pictures of the now deceased Osama Bin Laden? The newspapers released pictures of American soldiers killed by Muslims. I even recall the pictures of Saddam Hussein’s hanging. I really do not give a rip how these Muslims feel about the United States’ actions in regards to Bin Laden. The only thing I want the radical Muslims to feel is fear. I want to so awaken their sensibilities that they think twice about ever attacking an America citizen anywhere in the world ever again. I want them to fear the full force of our military breathing down their collective necks every time they even whisper a threat toward the United States. I would like to plaster their Mosques with huge posters of a dead Osama with the stern warning that this is what happens to radical Muslims who kill innocent Americans.

WANTED DEAD OR ALIVE. Preferably dead, thank you very much. Tell me, how much better off would the world be if there were fewer Osama bin Ladens around? How much better off would the world be if all radical Muslim jihadists were reduced to a minority?

In all fairness every society has its share of bad seeds, but the Middle East is drunk on the blood of Muslims killed by other Muslims. This blood lust has gone on for centuries; even before America was a nation Muslims were killing Muslims. Today the Middle East is aflame with Muslim-on-Muslim violence. Christians are marked for extermination; Israel is a target for annihilation. Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Tunisia, Somalia – the list is large of the Muslim nations whose histories are marred by bloodshed. From all accounts this would seem to be the norm for these Islamic nations.

Where there is a semblance of peace the population cowers in fear of their government, because dissenters are murdered in the streets, killed by their own government authorities. Women are treated like property and fathers are permitted to stone their own daughters to death in some Muslim societies. Truth be told that kind of behavior offends my sensibilities.

Attempts to Christianize Muslim cultures are met with fierce opposition, persecution, imprisonment, and death. These bloodthirsty murderers roam about seeking whom they may devour and justify it as defending Islam. They cry offense while murdering anyone who dares challenge their prophet or religion.

Well then Muslim sensibilities be damned. Do unto them as they have done unto others. Let them be judged according to their own actions. If they want respect and understanding perhaps they should show the same to others. Like Jesus said, “All who take up a sword will perish by a sword.” (Matthew 26:25 HCS) Perhaps that will offend some Muslim sensibilities as well. So be it!

There I said it, and I meant it! What say you?

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About Allen Scott

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Guy, you are a wonderful example of willful ignorance. Why? Look at your question:

    How much better off would the world be if all radical Muslim jihadists were reduced to a minority?

    FYI, guy, what YOU refer to as “radical Muslim jihadists” ARE a minority, and a small one at that when compared to the 1.2B Muslims in the world. If this weren’t true, then we’d have FAR more problems in Indonesia – the world’s largest Muslim country.

    Also, how’s your grasp of history? Can you name which one out of all the world’s religions that has killed more in the name of God than any other? In case you didn’t know, it’s mainstream “Christianity”! Furthermore, the past five centuries show that Jews are historically FAR safer among Muslims than among mainstream ‘Christians’! Do the numbers, guy!

    Look at the hatred they have for Israel – do you really know WHY they hate Israel so much? Betcha don’t! Here’s a clue – it’s NOT because Israel is Jewish! Look up the difference between true Judaism and Zionism, willya?

    And FYI, I am a strong Christian. I go twice a week, every week, and at least three times a year we even do the “every day of the week and twice on Sunday” routine. The difference is, while I am Christian, I ALSO have a better-than-average understanding of history.

    Get off the Muslims-are-bad schtick. Why don’t you look up Bush 43’s “crusade” quote, and realize that in our illegal invasion of Iraq we killed well over a hundred thousand Iraqi men, women, AND children…and over a million of them are still displaced, having fled to Syria and Jordan…even though Iraq had NO WMD’s (as Bush now admits) and did NOT pose a clear and present danger to America.

    Think about that – a relatively few killed about three thousand of us…and then we invade and kill over a hundred thousand of them in the wrong country!

    Who, truly, are the terrorists here?

  • Antown

    I was very surprised by news of the death of Osama bin Laden. The news said that he was caught and held in prison. And now it turns out that he was hiding and now dead. Is this good or not, I do not know. If he is a threat to society then yes. And if not, then we are all no better than Bin Laden. In any case, it is history that will remain forever memorable day of mourning on Sept. 11.

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    How much better off would the world be if all radical Muslim jihadists were reduced to a minority?

    I can see sarcasm is not lost on you. No sir! But to make it perfectly clear for others who may not be as quick-witted as you my friend let me restate this sentence.

    How much better off would the world be if all radical Muslim jihadists were reduced to a minority? (strike that) marginalized (no strike that) eliminated! Yeah that’s better.

    I am not of the populist belief that Islam is a peaceful religion since its founder was a murdering, thief, rapist, pedophile who set the course for Islam by initiating crusades of terror throughout the Middle East. The foundations of Islam are this madman’s writings and all ‘good Muslims’ adhere to the teachings of Muhammad. Therefore those who are moderate or peaceful would be considered ‘bad Muslims’ by fundamentalist since they do not adhere to the teachings of the mad, blood-thirsty prophet. In fact these moderate Muslims and Muslims Christians are targeted for abuse, imprisonment and even murder by the fundamentalist practitioners of this religion of peace. Therefore my stand is and will remain that until fundamental Muslims are reduced or eliminated from the world there will be no peace in the Middle East or anywhere else on earth. You can stick to your delusions if you like.

    FYI, guy, what YOU refer to as “radical Muslim jihadists” ARE a minority, and a small one at that when compared to the 1.2B Muslims in the world. If this weren’t true, then we’d have FAR more problems in Indonesia – the world’s largest Muslim country.

    So say you. Care to offer facts to support your claim? But let’s say your assessment is correct let us look at a few other ‘minority groups’ who wrecked havoc throughout history shall we?

    In 1917, less than 3% of Russians were Communists. Yet since that 3% was sufficiently corrupted by an immoral and ruthless religion (Socialist Secular Humanism), they quickly came to oppress the entire nation – murdering 30 million Russians in the process. In 1924, less than 3% of Germans were Nazis. And yet since that 3% was sufficiently corrupted by Hitler’s “People’s Religion” as it was immoral and ruthlessly laid out in Mein Kampf, that 3% came to oppress the entire nation and led the world into a war that killed 50 million people.

    Now then back to your assertion that radical Muslims are a minority:

    The Arabic religious term for fundamentalist, is salaf. Salafi (Arabic for Ancestor) Islam (Arabic for Submission) is the religion of Muhammad (Islam’s lone prophet and Allah’s singular voice). It is the Islam recorded in the Qur’an (Recital from ar-Rahman and Allah), in the Hadith (Oral Reports from the Salaf/Ancestors regarding Muhammad), the Sira (Biography of Muhammad as told by the prophet’s Companions), and Ta’rikh (History of Islam’s Formation as recorded in the earliest Hadith). Salafi Islam is indistinguishable from Islamic Sunnah (Arabic for the Example of Muhammad – the basis the Islamic religion, law, custom, behavior, and culture).

    Salafi Islam provides the entire basis for the Islamic religion and for Sharia Law – collectively the most repressive, unproductive, and anti-democratic system on earth. Salafi Islam provides the basis for all of Islam’s Five Pillars and for its mindless ritual. The Salaf were the sole conduits of information about Muhammad and his God Allah. There is no Islam without the Salaf/Ancestors.

    Based upon polling data from Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Lebanon, and the recent Palestinian elections, sixty to seventy percent of Muslims worldwide are Salafists. That means that fundamentalist Islam, the Islam of almost all terrorists, is not a fringe movement. The 9/11 suicide bombers were Salafi Muslims as are 95% of the world’s terrorists and 99.99% of Islamic terrorists.

    I stand by my position.

    Also, how’s your grasp of history? Can you name which one out of all the world’s religions that has killed more in the name of God than any other? In case you didn’t know, it’s mainstream “Christianity”!

    Apparently my grasp of history at least the last 3 centuries is far more comprehensive than yours. The following are recognized and documented Muslim terrorist organizations:

    al-Qaeda, HAMAS, the Muslim Brotherhood, Fatah, al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, Hizballah, and Islamic Jihad.

    Can you name for me three ‘mainstream Christian’ terrorist groups? GO!

    Furthermore, the past five centuries show that Jews are historically FAR safer among Muslims than among mainstream ‘Christians’! Do the numbers, guy!

    Now that I quit laughing I will simply say this. Jews are not even safe in Israel with Hamas and Hizballah tossing rockets into their homes and streets. And I think the Jews living in New York City and the rest of America are pretty safe. In fact I think they are very safe. Safer than Muslims living in Egypt, Libya, Iran, Pakistan, Syria, et al. Once again could you offer some proof? Show me the numbers.

    Look at the hatred they have for Israel – do you really know WHY they hate Israel so much? Betcha don’t! Here’s a clue – it’s NOT because Israel is Jewish! Look up the difference between true Judaism and Zionism, will ya?

    I fixed your grammar errors thank me.

    I would say they hate Israel and all INFIDELS simply because Islam is a religion of hate birthed by a murdering mad-man. The tenets of their faith is based on hatred and murder, Theirs is a religion of doom. Their prophet is the prophet of death and destruction. Christianity is the only religion of peace since it was founded by the ‘Prince of Peace’ Jesus Christ. Could you name for me one infidel (non-believer) Jesus murdered? GO!

    And FYI, I am a strong Christian. I go twice a week, every week, and at least three times a year we even do the “every day of the week and twice on Sunday” routine. The difference is, while I am Christian, I ALSO have a better-than-average understanding of history.

    Going to church does not make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage makes you a car. Perhaps you would fare better if you actually read the Bible daily. I am a Christian not because I go to church but because I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I do not have to go to church since I am the ‘church’, the temple of the living God, a holy priesthood. I do attend church, which we refer to as the fellowship of believers. I commune with God daily and pray constantly. Besides Obama went to church too where he learned black liberation theology which in my opinion is racist with roots in Marxism. But what do I know.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Boy, you really pick and choose your ‘facts’, don’t you?

    How much better off would the world be if all radical Muslim jihadists were reduced to a minority? (strike that) marginalized (no strike that) eliminated! Yeah that’s better.

    Yeah, kill ‘em all, right? FYI, the more you attack those belonging to a religion, the more you EDIFY those remaining in the religion and force them to become more fundamentalist. Got that? If you want them to grow, then attack them some more! Our illegal invasion of Iraq (on false pretenses) and our torture of prisoners were the best recruiting tools al-Qaeda ever had!

    So I looked up where you got your ‘facts’ on how many Salafi – Wahabbi – Muslims there are…and I found the SAME wildly overblown claptrap you posted on lots of different websites…but NONE of those are reputable websites! You need to learn to get your information from sites that don’t make a practice of blowing things way out of proportion.

    For instance, your ‘source’ – likely either the Daniel Pipes site or its source, the “prophet of doom” site (ooh, scary!) – tried to use elections as ‘proof’ of how many Salafis there are…which is sort of like using the election of JFK to ‘prove’ that most of America was Catholic at the time. Okay? Your ‘source’ played with the numbers, ran a shell game on you, and you bought it.

    Here’s a report from a FAR more reliable source: “Salafi Jihadists represent a small percentage of the overall Salafi population, but they are very influential and al-Qaeda’s distorted interpretation of Salafi Islam has attracted Muslims from around the world.”

    If you’ll look at the bottom the 2006 Congressional report, you’ll see the sources include the FBI, the CIA, the Heritage Foundation, George W. Bush, et cetera…and they’re a heck of a lot more credible than your ‘source’…which began with a book called “Prophet of Doom”, one of five self-published books by Craig Winn, a one-time dot-com billionaire.

    And that tells me a lot – if a filty-rich man can’t get a publisher to publish his books, something’s really wrong with the books. Anyway, here’s a little history of your “source”.

    And if you still think that Muslims have historically been the bloodiest religion, you really, truly don’t know history. Look up the Thirty Years War. Religion – usually protestant vs. Catholic – played a big part in many of the wars of the Middle Ages. There was one version of mainstream ‘Christianity’ that wound up in China – the ‘Taiping Rebellion’ I think it was – which ended up with 20 million dead. Islam has NOTHING like that in its history.

    But I don’t expect any of this to change your mind – you don’t want to hear facts from credible sources showing your error…you likely only want to hear that which agrees with your preconceived beliefs.

    One last thing – when it comes to Christianity, from whom did you receive the Gospel? I’m sure you already know that he who believes AND is baptized, is saved…but are you sure that you believe the truth? I ask that because if you’ll look in Romans 10, it states quite clearly that one cannot believe unless one has received the Gospel from one that is SENT by God to preach the Gospel. If you did not receive the Gospel from one that is SENT by God to preach that Gospel, then you don’t truly believe, and you then are thus described by Jesus: “…they worship Me in vain, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.” So…who preached the Gospel to you?

  • ogunitracy

    @Glenn Contrarian
    you need to look at the world around you. it does not matter if there is only one muslim radical if they still do all this damage. Name one war in the world today that doesn’t have Islam on at least one side. better still, name all the wars in the world today and calculate the percentage involving muslims. I don’t need your reply. I simply need you to do the homework. After that, find out the percentage of Jews in the muslim world and the percentage of Jews in the rest of the world and decide where Jews feel safer.

  • Student of Islam

    Glenn Contrarian, you are confusing the actions of people with the tenets of religious texts.
    There is only one religious text which advocates the killing of anyone not of that religion if they do not convert. There is only one religious text that says to kill anyone trying to convert out of it.
    That is the Koran and the associates Hadith. The first crusade commenced 400 years after the muslims conquered many other countries by the sword which they had done IN ACCORDANCE WITH THEIR RELIGIOUS TEXT. The first crusades were started because the muslims were stopping access to Jerusalem, NOT BECAUSE THE BIBLE ORDERED IT.
    As far as Indonesia is concerned, there are currently reported killings of minority muslim sects and forced conversions of them, as recently as a few months ago, all in accordance with the religious teaching emanating from the Koran. There is a video clip of an enraged mob attacking and burning houses if you cared to look.
    There are no killings ordered in the Bible, Buddhist texts, Hindu or any others for their followers to do to others.
    The Koran, however, orders killings, beheadings, maiming, eye gouging, honor killings of women, whippings, taxes on non muslims, lying in the cause, bloodily conquering of other nations and much more, and for this to continue until all the Earth is Muslim. Over 60 percent of the Koran is all about you and me, and how they are to subdigate us.
    In fact the ones doing the killings are the good muslims, following the tenets of the Koran.
    A good site with links to many world newspapers documenting daily the carnage is thereligionofpeace dot com.

  • Student of Islam

    FYI, the more you attack those belonging to a religion, the more you EDIFY those remaining in the religion and force them to become more fundamentalist. Got that?
    Glen Contrarian, I could not leave without a final comment on your comment above.
    Again you are a very confused and ignorant of Islam person, as you are confusing CAUSE and EFFECT.
    The Koran is essentially a war manual, with a religious covering.
    The followers are REQUIRED by their holy book, to conquer the world by the sword if possible, as that is the holiest thing to do, or by stealth.
    People all over the world are going about their daily business, doing nothing to Muslims, and being killed just for not converting.
    Really, really do some research on the other religions not Christian, that are targetted by muslims. You are fixated on Christianity.
    The Buddhists never did anything to anyone, preached peace, and yet millions were wiped out on the ancient silk road. Their monuments remain, that is, those that have not been desecrated by Muslims (acting in accordance with their Koran).
    There are probably millions of muslims in muslim countries, who do not wish to be muslim. They are the great hidden because to become an apostate, they know they will be killed, or their families killed, so they acquiesce silently.
    Indonesia, an ancient country, had many religions before the muslims arrived, yet now they have mainly one.
    Stop being an apologist for Mohammed and this deadly cult.
    If this cult started in the US today it would be seen for what it is, and banned. Because it has the religious trappings, you and others like you, apologise for it.

  • ogunitracy

    @ studentofislam

    i don’t think he hears you. I’ve talked to lots of muslims the same way you’re doing right now and they’re either in denial, or flat out liars. either way, it doesn’t work

  • Glenn Contrarian

    ‘Student’?

    You’re about as much a ‘Student of Islam’ as Sarah Palin is a student of anything that isn’t about Sarah Palin.

    1 – Have you a clue about how many times the Old Testament records the Hebrews being told by God to kill all the men, women, and children of the inhabitants of wherever it is they were to go? One verse, IIRC, records God saying that they were to cut open the bellies of pregnant women to slay the baby inside.

    Okay? Jesus once described a man who was eager to point out the mote in the eyes of others, but ignored the log in his own eye.

    For your information, “Student”:

    “Nor take life – which God has made sacred – except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him nor exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law). (Quran, 17:33)”

    “On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land – it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (Quran, 5:32)”

    “But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (Quran, 8:61)”

    =====================================

    Got that, “Student”? Probably not. Judging by your comments above, you probably can’t see past your own hatred. But just in case you’re actually paying attention, it is historical FACT that the religion that killed the most people in the Name of God is none other than mainstream “Christianity”. For instance, remember Martin Luther, the “Father of the Reformation”? He once said that he cannot baptize a Jew, that if a Jew approached him on a bridge and asked to be baptized, that he’d put a rope around the Jew’s neck and toss him in the river to drown.

    And while you’re at it, try researching how many of Martin Luther’s sayings were used by the Nazis in then-majority-Lutheran Germany before the Holocaust began.

    Okay? No religion’s hands are as bloody as those of mainstream ‘Christianity’.

    Oh, and one more thing concerning the Crusades – if someone who rules a nation doesn’t want a certain people to come to that nation, is it not the RIGHT of the rulers of that nation to deny entrance? What RIGHT did the Pope have – for it was him that called for the First Crusade – to DEMAND that his people be allowed to cross the borders to a foreign nation, and to call for WAR when said entry into a foreign nation was denied? And what right did Richard the ‘Lion-Hearted’ to order that all the Jews and Arabs in Jerusalem be massacred?

    And what did Saladin do after he forced Richard the ‘Lion-Hearted’ to surrender? He allowed Richard to leave after giving his word – and ONLY his word – that he would never return and never make war on the region again.

    Okay? When you learn a bit about the REAL history that does NOT match up with what you want so badly to believe, come back and let me know – or you can just hide your head in the sand and protect your hatred. Your choice.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    ogunitracy –

    FYI – I’m no Muslim. I’m a strong Christian…God is my God and Jesus is my Savior. But that doesn’t mean I don’t know something about Islam – and I know much of what is very, very wrong with the religion of Islam – I had to research it quite a bit for a book I was writing. For instance, Mohammed told them not to write anything of what he said or did other than what was already in the Qu’ran…but then after he died, those who came after him wrote the Hadiths and Sunnas – ‘words’ and ‘actions’ (can’t remember which is which right now) – which Mohammed strictly forbade, but which they now base much of their religion…including Sharia law, much of which conflicts directly with Qur’anic scripture.

    So would a Muslim say the above? Probably not. I’m no Muslim…but that does not mean that I should tolerate those who are making false accusations against Muslims (or anybody else, for that matter). For the most part, they’re no better – and no worse – than people anywhere else in the world.

  • The Goat Whisperer

    @Glen Contrarian

    Began to think you were genuine, until the gratuitous Sarah Palin slap.

    Expessions of knowledge concerning Martin Luther’s contradictory messages, some understanding of Quran quotes; then feined ignorance of Muhammed’s contradictory messages.

    Now it all reads like the seminar callers that tell Rush Limbaugh: “I’m a registered Republican…blah, blah, blah.”

    Strong Christian? Makara! CAIR lackey? More likely.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Ah yes, Ghost Whisperer. You can’t counter the points so you just peck away at a minuscule detail and hope the whole structure falls over. Typical Internet debate strategy.

  • Jordan Richardson

    *Goat Whisperer. My bad, I was imagining Jennifer Love Hewitt again.

  • The Goat Whisperer

    @Jordan Richardson

    A deceiver spewing truth from time-to-time remains a liar. Got it? Build a house upon loose sand, instead of bedrock, and the entire structure fails beginning with the loss of one grain.

    Guess you’ve got the CAIR blog watch duty; do they pay by the hour or by the post?

  • gsw

    @Glenn Contraria:
    As an atheist, I have no intention of visiting any islamic countries in the near future. Since you claim to be a christian and supporter of other religions, may I suggest you practise what you preach and take your views to Egypt? In Indonesia, your chances of survival would be pretty low, so I suggest you stay away from there, but in Egypt you should be ok, if you do not openly proselytise.

    Re: History, all religions have bloody histories, I live in the 21st. century, here the currently bloodiest religion/ideology is islam.
    Who hit who first back in the 12th. century, how the fights started etc. is irrelevant, since none of those in the crusades are now alive to be blamed.

    The current belief of many muslims that their god wants them to force everyone (irrespective of belief) to follow the shariah rules of Muhammed is the main problem.
    This we need to concentrate on, not whose religion did what to whom. We atheists are also being bombed – and don’t start with Stalin and Pol-pot please, they too are dead and therefore not likely to be hurt by this fanaticism.

    I no longer blame priests for the burning of witches, since those responsible are now all dead – for raping children yes – but not for torturing people to death.

    If I can forget that, you can forget something that happened centuries before your birth and try looking at the contemporary world for what it is – overfull, malnourished, oppressed and ignorant.
    Who is to blame today?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Goat Whisperer, that’s just an excuse for laziness. More to the point, what you accused Glenn off was not deception but being “gratuitous” via a Sarah Palin jab. This joke, in your mind, was reason enough to discard everything else.

    Were we to hold you to the same standards, your asinine paranoia regarding CAIR and whether or not someone arguing on the Internet works there would be cause enough to discard anything else you have to say.

    Are you actually a Goat Whisperer?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Who is to blame today?

    Ooh ooh, lemme guess! Muslims?

    …until they’re dead, of course. After that, they cease being objects of hatred because time, according to you, really does heal all wounds.

    Do you honestly believe that, gsw? Or could it be that history really does have lessons to teach? And maybe what those priests did in the past really does matter now…what Hitler did really does matter now…and so on.

    I get that you want to blame Muslims for everything you see now because in our world it’s easier to make evil a contest that we can award to a particular group we choose to despise. It’s much, much easier to say that some specific collective is “to blame” for, say, oppression. It’s even easier – and more fun! – to paint ourselves as the good guys. That way the world would be better, not overfull or malnourished or ignorant, if we could only get rid of the evil forces blocking us from being truly civilized.

    Yep. Then ALL of our problems would be solved.

  • The Goat Whisperer

    @Jordan Richardson

    A wise man doesn’t have to actually consume camel scat to positively identify the steaming pile as the subject animal waste. And a sniper is only as good as their cold shot. Given the gratuitous “phobia” card, this is a CAIR bullseye! Next up, a “race” card?

    Get back with me after a Cathedral and Synagogue are built alongside the Grand Mosque in Mecca. Yes. That’s my start point for an earnest discussion with any CAIR lackeys over Islam’s committment as a religon of peace.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    gsw –

    Since you claim to be a christian and supporter of other religions

    Where did I claim to be a supporter of other religions? I didn’t. In fact, if you’ll read the last paragraph of comment #4, you’ll see my opening challenge against all who claim to be Christian but who are apparently not of the Church of which I am a member. And please note that also I pointed out one of the major – and crucial – flaws with the Islamic faith using their own Qur’an. No, I am NOT a supporter of ‘other religions’…including trinitarian “Christianity”.

    My ONLY aim was to point out that the article – and the subsequent comments by “Student of Islam” (who obviously isn’t) – contained false accusations and broad-brush assumptions. Is it somehow morally wrong, even un-Christian for me to point out false accusations and groundless assumptions when those accusations and assumptions are made against people/nations/religions that don’t like us? Think about that for a while.

    Oh, and concerning atheism – you might be comfortable with that…but also remember that officially-atheist nations have killed far more people than any religion ever has. Just sayin’ –

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Goat Whisperer –

    Remember what Jesus said about the man with the log in his eye, who complained about the motes in other people’s eyes?

    That’s why I pointed out what mainstream ‘Christianity’ has done.

    Now, if you want to talk about a terrible crime, ask yourself how recently a Muslim country has not only invaded a country on false pretenses (they have – unsuccessfully), but also occupied that country and killed over a hundred thousand of its citizens (and there’s over a million of its residents who still live in foreign refugee camps)?

    Remember, the Iraq War was started on FALSE pretenses…and our Dear Leader at the time bought into the argument that we’d get enough oil to pay for it! Good references are available on request, of course – but it would be nice if you’d look it up yourself. Googling the Downing Street Memo would be a good place to start.

    But that’s my point – has Islam done ANYTHING to compare with the Iraq War? Well, yes – the Armenian genocide…but modern-day Islamic terrorists haven’t done anything to compare with the terrorism America committed in Iraq. The point is, if we’re supposed to be the good guys, how the heck can we claim to be so high-and-mighty when our hands are quite red with the innocent blood of Iraqi citizens?

    In other words, when it comes to terrorism, we as a nation don’t have a whole lot of room to talk.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    And for all – a little quote from George W. Bush:

    “I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, ‘George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.’ And I did, and then God would tell me, ‘George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,’ and I did.”

    So if the Muslims attacking Israel is Islamic terrorism, how exactly is the Iraq War not “‘Christian’ terrorism”, but on a scale the Muslims can’t hope to match?

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    Wow I started quite the firestorm. Interesting back and forth but especially the comments of self-professing monitor of all things righteous and good Glenn the contrarian. His very moniker speaks for itself. If he is to live up to his moniker then he must be a contrarian to be true to himself. No matter what facts, proof, verifiable observations, or just plain common sense Glen the contrarian will hold to a contrary viewpoint; even his brand of Christianity is contrary to Biblical Christianity, which I am sure he will disagree being he is a contrarian and all.

    Now then to be sure that I do not get flagged as waging a personal attack I am only stating the obvious, which is what my original post was all about. Nowhere did I say that Muslims need to be killed, what I did say is how much better off would the world be if ‘radical Muslims’ were eliminated. Elimination could mean annaliation but I did not say that. If the Muslims would police their Mosques and remove radical teachings from them then radical Islam could be marginalized or eliminated. But I believe it is exactly what it was designed to be a religion of forced compiance.

    If the mainstream Muslim religion is a ‘religion of peace’ – I do not believe this since their actions speak for themselves – then they should monitor their own ranks and clean up their own garbage, but instead they celebrate terrorist acts around the world and build mosques to commemorate their conquests. The very fact that a Muslim community (Pakistan) harbored Osama bin Laden for 10 yrs is indicative of the problem.

    If ‘peaceful Muslims’ were law-abiding they would have at the very least arrested Osama and brought him to trial. Instead they let him live in their neighborhood. I do not buy that they did not know he was there since we were able to find him, they could have too if they wanted to.

    As to the Christian Crusades – this is where the Contrarian really shines as a colossal example of willful ignorance. It is one thing to misinterpret history it is entirely another to rewrite it. After 400+ years of constant Muslim crusading – which started with Muhammad their prophet of peace – one Christian nation after another was becoming subjugated to Muslim intimidation and conquest. Finally after tolerating, or better yet ignoring this constant Muslim invasion the Christian nations decided life was better before the Muslim conquests and proceeded to retake their lands for Christ. YEAH it was bloody, but there would be no United States today or Israel had not the Christian Crusades succeeded.

    Fast forward to today and we see the Muslim crusades still continue. A Muslim group brings terror to a nation and threatens that more violence will come if they do not agree to their demands, pay tribute, or surrender their nation and convert to Islam laws and teachings (do what they say you should do).

    Talk about invading borders. This is the MO of the Muslim culture and religion. They do not preach peace they come wielding a sword. So when a nation strikes back at those wielding the sword they are then vilified by those who started the fight to begin with. So I say may the better man win. Or perhaps it would be better said may the better God win since this is a war of beliefs.

  • Sue

    @Glen Contrarian

    if you’re so against Christianity, why do you still consider yourself a
    Christian? or are you a Muslim posing as a Christian?

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    @Glenn the Contrarian

    So if the Muslims attacking Israel is Islamic terrorism, how exactly is the Iraq War not “‘Christian’ terrorism”, but on a scale the Muslims can’t hope to match?

    The United States government is waging war against terrorism by attacking the source of the terrorism. They started the fight and we plan on finishing the fight. They should not have picked the fight if they did not intend to get in a fight. But it is obvious that was the intention all along. Since they have not changed their MO since the founding of Islam in the 6th century. You would think that after 16 centuries this religion of peace would have found it by now. But no they keep picking fights.

  • zingzing

    glenn, this is just another bucket of drool out of a muslim-hater. since islam was founded, it’s been the same old shit from both sides. it’s old, and it’s stupid, but it happens all the time. this is the “acceptable” face of racial/religious animosity. they don’t even bother to understand each other, they just hurl invective based upon their mutual misunderstandings at each other. it’s pathetic, and they fully deserve each other.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Goat Whisperer,

    As interesting as it might be to have your start point as to such a dialogue, I honestly don’t give a shit. I’m willing to bet most people feel the same. The world luckily doesn’t depend on having your terms satisfied in order to get on with the business of progress.

    What interested me and what provoked me to get involved in this thread was your smug sense of satisfaction over “discrediting” Glenn over the placement of a Palin comment.

    The sum of what you’ve said has been utter goat shit.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Um…Allen –

    – Iraq was NOT the “source of the terrorism”. It’s been long debunked that al-Qaeda had anything to do with Iraq before the Iraq War.
    – They did NOT “pick the fight” – not this time, anyway. Iraq posed NO “clear and present danger” to America. Remember, almost all of the 19 of the 911 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia…and none from Iraq.

    And NOWHERE will you find that I said the Islam was a “religion of peace”. What you WILL find is:

    1 – verses professing peace (just as there are Bible verses mandating wholesale slaughter, and Bible verses mandating peace)

    2 – examples of mainstream “Christianity” being every bit as bad or worse than the Muslims. Trinitarian ‘Christianity’ has, over the centuries, killed MORE people in the Name of God than has any other religion. You DID read the quote by Bush 43, didn’t you?

    It’s incredible that there are still people who don’t realize that we invaded Iraq on false pretenses…and that we had Osama bin Laden pinpointed in Tora Bora and Bush 43 – in yet another of his incredibly stupid moves – refused to give the 800 or so extra men that were needed to complete the entrapment of bin Laden, saying that they were needed instead for the Iraq invasion.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    zing –

    glenn, this is just another bucket of drool out of a muslim-hater. since islam was founded, it’s been the same old shit from both sides. it’s old, and it’s stupid, but it happens all the time. this is the “acceptable” face of racial/religious animosity. they don’t even bother to understand each other, they just hurl invective based upon their mutual misunderstandings at each other. it’s pathetic, and they fully deserve each other.

    Quoted for truth!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Sue –

    Did you not see how I showed that Islam cannot be the true religion? Look in comment #10.

    And as to my feelings about mainstream ‘Christianity’…note the quotes. They’re in EVERY instance of my references to mainstream/trinitarian ‘Christianity’. Why? Because mainstream ‘Christianity’ – trinitarianism – is not Christianity.

    Did you know that (according to the Catholic Encyclopedia) Ba’al – the god of the Philistines and the Babylonians – was part of a trinity? Did you that (according to the Greek historian Herodotus) the priests of Ba’al kept chaste women at the temples of Ba’al for the god’s “pleasure”? To me, that sounds remotely similar to chaste nuns (who actually “marry” Christ). And did you know that – as far as I’ve been able to determine – every single major nation or culture of the Middle East of Biblical times worshiped a trinity of some sort or another…except for the Hebrews? FYI, the OT never strictly states that God was more than ‘just’ the Father.

    So here – I’ll repost for you what I asked the author in comment #4:

    One last thing – when it comes to Christianity, from whom did you receive the Gospel? I’m sure you already know that he who believes AND is baptized, is saved…but are you sure that you believe the truth? I ask that because if you’ll look in Romans 10, it states quite clearly that one cannot believe unless one has received the Gospel from one that is SENT by God to preach the Gospel. If you did not receive the Gospel from one that is SENT by God to preach that Gospel, then you don’t truly believe, and you then are thus described by Jesus: “…they worship Me in vain, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.” So…who preached the Gospel to you?

    Do you believe yourself to be Christian? Then answer that question…and we’ll go from there.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    And Allen –

    I’m a ‘contrarian’ because I’m not afraid of taking the position opposite from the popular opinion. Here’s a definition:

    One who takes a contrary view or action, especially an investor who makes decisions that contradict prevailing wisdom, as in buying securities that are unpopular at the time.

    Okay? It wasn’t the popular thing to be liberal in the military…but I was. It’s certainly not the popular thing in my family to marry somebody that’s not white…but I did. It’s not the popular thing among my fellow liberals to still support nuclear power…but I do.

    I go where the facts lead. Show me facts proving me wrong, and I’ll be sincerely grateful for it – I’m not afraid of being wrong…I’m only afraid of remaining wrong once someone shows me factual information proving me wrong.

    The normal modus operandi of people on forums and blogs is to never change their minds concerning an issue no matter what…but I do and gladly, when I am proven wrong.

    The above are why I’m a contrarian. Your turn.

  • zingzing

    i wonder what would happen if allen stood back and compared his rhetoric to that of radical islam. he’d see that they’re basically the same thing. if he expects moderate islam to stamp out the evil being spewed from their more hateful muslim brothers, why does he spew hateful shit from his chirstian/western perspective? if “it takes one to know one,” why are these people so damned blind?

  • Me

    Looking at all the war, bloodshed and suffering that both Christianity & Islam have brought upon the world in the last 2 millenia, its easy to spot that both religions are flawed scrofulous man made inventions that are inevitably used as tools for powerful and cruel people to control and dominate. Mankind would be far better off without this virus we term religion. I see no genuine peace, love forgiveness or harmony resulting from either. Fundamentalist Christians or Wahhabists- despicable cunts one and all.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    zing –

    On the most basic level, I suspect the answer’s in my article about the amygdala and the fear of the different. Those of a classical conservative mindset don’t want change, don’t want something different – unless it’s to go back to the “good ol’ days”, despite the fact that the “good ol’ days”, almost always weren’t. This is NOT saying that they’re good or bad, or better or worse, but that they have a brain that forces them to have a greater, a deeper dislike of the different. For instance, look how they ridiculed Obama’s “hope and change” slogan: “I’ll keep my guns, money and freedom you keep the change.”

    Here’s something else that will drive them nuts – Our various small wars notwithstanding, the time since the end of the Vietnam war has been the most peaceful such time in the history of mankind, as far as I can tell…but if you listen to their rhetoric – and the news from every news source that tries to make money – the world’s a powder-keg that’s about to blow!

    But in the long historical view, we’re likely more at peace than we’ve ever been…and in relative terms, our conflicts are on the whole less bloody than they’ve ever been.

    Now I’ll sit back and wait for everybody to tell me what an absolute idiot I am….

  • Glenn Contrarian

    “Me” –

    How about the carnage that officially-atheist governments brought? Stalin killed twenty million of his own, Mao killed ten million of his own, and Pol Pot killed two million of his own. If we go by the numbers, atheism’s the worst of all.

  • Me

    Marxism is just another flawed ‘religion’ its an idealogy like christianity and Islam that will always end in tears.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    ‘Me’ –

    No, ‘Marxism’ is a philosophy of government. The meme of calling Marxism and communism “religions” is an oft-used tool of atheists who are not eager to admit that atheist governments have been involved in great slaughter.

    There will always be a government of some type…and the best you’ll ever do is to remain subject to some government that at least tries to remain secular. Of course, if the Religious Right had their way, our kids would be taught creationism, Noah’s flood, and gay-is-bad.

  • Me

    The writings of Marx, Engels, and Lenin are looked upon as sacred scriptures in Communist countries. In the Soviet Union, Communist ideologists argued by quoting from the works of Lenin.

    There are other “religious” overtones of Marxism. One of them is the “cults of personality” of its leaders.

    And Lenin’s tomb in the Red Square. His body (or a waxworks copy) is carefully preserved and laid out for the vast crowds of visitors to see. Just like the fucking vatican.

    In North Korea, Kim Il-Sung had a personality cult going for some decades- he was regarded as practically
    Divine.

    In summary, these “godless” Communists have created new “gods” in the form of heroic leaders

    Just like primitive superstitious man did with Jesus or Muhhamad- manufactured gods, prophets
    And saints.
    Well meaning Christians and Muslims have killed far more in pursuit of their religions in the last 2 thousand years than the 32 odd million credited to the communists.

  • zingzing

    humans are damn good at hating and killing each other, whether they’re religious or not. religion, like politics, is all about the relationship between power and fear.

  • KRASHKOWALSKI

    THE ONLY OBJECTION THAT I HAVE HERE IS THAT THEY DIDN’T BRING THE SAVAGE’S BODY BACK TO THE US, DISPLAY IT ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, BURN IT TO ASHES IN PUBLIC & THEN DUMP THE ASHES DOWN A TOILET BOWL!!!!!

  • Dillon Mawler

    Can we go back to Allen Scott (cmmt #22)? What hIlarious confusion, bred of the magical thinking of religion:
    Mr. Scott writes of “the Muslim culture and religion”: “They do not preach peace they come wielding a sword.”
    Um,

    THAT WAS JESUS!
    Matthew 10:34
    “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.”

    I understand the confusion, though.
    Maybe you could consider, Mr. Scott, why that passage (and a few others like it) is in the Gospels, what it means in context, and whether or not it causes you or a huge swath of your fellow Christians to go around killing your enemies. And then perhaps you would have a different understanding of why similar passages appear in the Koran and whether they “compel” anyone to do anything.

  • Dillon Mawler

    KrashKowalski, it’s just too soon, no matter what your wrestling fandom. Let Randy “Macho Man” Savage rest in peace. Also, I think you’re on the wrong board.

  • Leroy

    41-Dillon: Thank you. Best post of the month at BC. Maybe the year.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dillon 41 –

    What Leroy said!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    ‘Me’ –

    Well meaning Christians and Muslims have killed far more in pursuit of their religions in the last 2 thousand years than the 32 odd million credited to the communists.

    Actually, no. You’re not even close.

    Tell you what, guy – here’s an interesting site where the guy gives the numbers, gives his sources, and tries to differentiate which sources seem credible and which don’t. And then start adding the numbers and see who’s killed more.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    My religion can beat up your religion.

  • Me

    Fascinating site! looks like the original communist death toll figures you quoted were way too low then. Muslims/Christians/Marxists all refreshingly similar when it comes to competing for the bodycount record (not to mention the Mongols Romans Japanese and other non atheist people’s efforts besides)What a vile species we are.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    A ‘vile species’ we often are indeed…which goes back to my original point that we should not condemn the Muslims as a violent religion when mainstream ‘Christianity’ is guilty of worse, and atheists and nations are guilty of yet worse.

    Isn’t that essentially what I’ve been saying all along?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    “Filthy, vile and helpless,” Me… but with a lot of bright spots here and there.

    “The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness shall not overcome it.”

  • Me

    According to its teachings Jesus did not advocate violence or murder (unless those bits were edited out.)

    Despite its really dodgy past
    Christianity has made something of an effort to reform itself in recent years.

    Islam has not.

    Violence is familiar behaviour & descriptive in the Koran.

    Atheists seems to really bother you don’t they.

    And they seem to kill others as effectively and as brutally as you christians and the muslims.
    Body count competition.

    You are all no different from each other.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    ‘Me’ –

    Jesus did not advocate violence or murder, quite true…but what did the ‘Christians’ who came after the deaths of the apostles do?

    But what you don’t get about my point of view is that in my opinion, Islam and mainstream ‘Christianity’ and atheism are all the same…for none lead to salvation. Atheists certainly don’t ‘bother’ me – I almost was one, once…and then I was introduced to the Church of which I am a member, and now I will never be an atheist, thank God.

    But are we the ‘same’ as all the rest? No. But that’s a story for another day.

  • Wilbur

    Glenn Contrarian,

    Read through a number of your arguements and was struck at how similar they were to mine several years ago. I hope you don’t take this as pedantic rant but like me I believe your confusing Islam with just any other religion. Take for instance:

    1) “Nor take life – which God has made sacred – except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him nor exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law). (Quran, 17:33)” The key words are “except for just cause.” Under Islamic law death is prescribed for apostasy, adultery, homosexuality, and blasphemy.

    2) “But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (Quran, 8:61)” This verse is from the “Spoils of war” Sura. In this verse they also say “And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.” Q, 8:39 The key in the previous verse is “no more tumult or oppression” which by Islamic standards means no more unbelief. Unbelief to Islam is the world’s greatest evil because it is the source of all oppression, strife and injustice. This verse is almost always used to justify offensive Jihad to spread faith(i.e. eliminate unbelief and thus oppression.) The only reason you do not see offensive warfare from the Islamic world is simply because they lack the means to do so. One only needs to look through history to see a clear precedance with the Ottamans having been at war almost every year of their existence as a clear model for this.

    3) Under Islamic law all missionary work of non Muslims is illegal. It is why the majority of Islamic states today ban all non muslim missionary work.

    4) In a court of law the non Muslim’s testimony is worth half of a Muslims. This also applies to a Male vs a female in a court of law. Several Islamic states have this law on the books and this is directly from the Qursn.

    While I agree with your stance the salafists are a minority the points they espouse are fundamental tenats of Islam. I believe the error your making is looking at Islam through your own religious/societal upbringing which erroneously attributes values to Islam it inherently rejects. Such as:

    1) Secular law is categorically rejected by Islam because Islam is a way of life comprising the religious, technological, educational, societal, political, and just about every facet of a Muslims life. Note the Muslims said the laws to ban Sharia in the US are redundant and silly. Yet when the laws started to get passed they went into overdrive to get them pulled back. Odd if it wasn’t such a big deal why are they persitently challenging it every time it has manifested itself? They are doing so because they know full well even if they reach a majority it will bar them from democratically voting in it. Always remember as PM Erdogan best put “democracy is like a train car you can get off when you get there” clearly demonstrating Islam will use democracy to come to power only to abolish it.

    2) Islam categorically rejects equality of all but prescribes greater rights to Muslims. I touched on this above but it is important because it is why, as atested to by numerous human rights groups, the Islamic world is bar none the worlds worst human and religious rights abuser.

    3) Islam rejects democracy as heresy. Islam mandates the only laws that are viable are Allahs. Man has no right to make or change laws that contradict Allahs laws. It is why the best the North American Fiqh Council in the US could only offer was a moratorium on the death penalty of apostasy when pressed on the subject. A moratorium clearly implies a temporary state which is exactly what it is because no Muslim cannot reject the laws of Allah least they become an apostate.

    4) Their is no such thing as personal will or agency in Islam. Allah holds all will (aka Inshallah or god willing) and all agency. Your simple rights to life,liberty, and pursuit of happiness are predicated on your conformity to the dictates of Islam. You try to leave Islam or question it’s truth you earn a death penalty.

    The aforementioned four points are all cornerstones of Western civilization and it is notable Islam rejects them all. The problem is not Islamic fundamentalism, radicalism, or extremism the problem is the fundamentals of Islam. The issues with Islam will always be our unbelief which the Quran says they can never accept. It is why Islam mandates our lands as Dar Al Harb or the land of war. The “peace” in Islam can only truly be achieved once all submit to Islam. In short no matter what we do we are Kafirs(concealers of the truth) and the only solution will be ideally our acceptance of Islam or at the least our submission to Sharia. Sort of hard when we bend over backwards to appease Muslims and yet their faith says they can never turly accept us.

    Like i did I would only encourage you to read the Quran, A Hadith source (such as Bukhari), and the Sira. Then compare and contrast this with the problems in the Islamic world and I believe you will start to see the all to observable link between Islam and the unique problems it has. If you need further convincing read the Cario Decleration of Human rights which the Islamic world authored when they rejected the Universal version we all follow. You will notice it omits true religious freedom and in the place of the words “rights” you will find “diginity.” The Islamic world did this because Sharia, which is the sole source for the document, rejects religious freedom and equality of all regardless of faith.

    In conclusion I am often labled as an Islamophobe for pointing out these truths. The irony of this label is the fact that by my mere stance of remaining a non Muslim I am a Islamophobe by default. It is so because Islam by its own word is the “only truth” and well when you persist in your unbelief of Islam you not only actively reject but deny the truth of the Isalm. Well rejecting the truth is irrational thus a phobia–presto you are a Islamophobe because your not Muslim!! Now you know why Muslims whine about freedoms in the West yet have and never will reciprocate these freedoms in their homelands. The only solution for Islam is submission and it demands all to do so. It is why their prophet muhammad sent letter to all the world leaders he knew saying “embrace Islam and you shall be safe!”

    Thx
    Wilbur

  • zingzing

    YOU DESERVE EACH OTHER.

  • Me

    Glenn Contrarian Said:
    “But what you don’t get about my point of view is that in my opinion, Islam and mainstream ‘Christianity’ and atheism are all the same”

    That was Exactly my point.

    They’re all bloody nasty.

    They all kill.

    Never mind the ‘salvation’ bit, This is about murderous propensity and bodycount.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Wilbur!

    Finally! An Islamophobe who uses normal non-hate-filled non-inflammatory language to make his points! Please note that I’m not being sarcastic – it’s just hard to find someone on this issue who has taken the time to educate himself, that he knows whereof he speaks.

    That said, what’s funny is that because I spoke out against false accusations and assumptions made against Muslims (just as we should speak out against such made against anyone), the Islamophobes here got the idea that I’m an Islamophile! And that is NOT the case. All I was doing was speaking out against their use of false accusations and groundless assumptions!

    You mentioned Bukhari – wasn’t he the one who wrote that if a woman or a black dog walked in front of a man who was praying to God, that his prayers would not be heard? Okay? I’m not here to support Islam.

    Like many people of strong religious convictions, I oppose all religion other than my own…but only in the way that nearly everyone opposes everyone else who opposes those of other viewpoints/religions/political leanings. So yes, I do oppose Islam.

    That said, in order to properly oppose Islam, what must we do? We don’t do it by bombing them…for all that violent action does to those of a certain religion is to edify those who belong to that religion!. We do it by treating them as we do anyone else, by allowing their countries to become financially successful (most aren’t, btw), by encouraging them to raise the standard of living of the everyday Muslim-in-the-street.

    Why? Where is religion strongest? In the poorest areas, the poorest regions, the poorest neighborhoods. As Europe became successful, their church attendance dropped dramatically…and the same thing happened in America. It’s not for nothing that Jesus said that it is harder for a rich man to go to heaven than it is for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. As financial success goes up, generally speaking, religious fervor goes down. This is not true in every case, but in the BIG picture, it’s absolutely true.

    So if you want to stop the spread of Islam, then treat them like anyone else. Allow them their success…for just as financial success (and the spread of the internet) has torn down religious fervor in Europe and America, it will also slow and stop the spread of Islam.

    Of course that’s not a politically-popular viewpoint…but that’s the advantage of being anonymous – I can speak the truth without reservation.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    ‘Me’ –

    So why, then, should you hate and attack Muslims more than atheists or mainstream ‘Christians’?

  • Me

    I prefer to critique them both, both are equally vile when it comes to spreading their word, and in their interminable wars.

    But back to salvation:
    Scratching beneath the surface of all this debate I kinda wondered how long it would be before you started hinting at your real angle.

    The “Well the version of Christianity I follow is far better than all the rest, it’s the real deal, Lord Jesus
    Would really approve, we don’t go killing other religions, or those who disagree with the ‘absolute total truth’ we endorse, or those who simply do not believe anything at all we profess to know about the divine being and his progeny” Stance doesn’t wash with me sunshine.

    The trouble with all religions is you all think you are so damn right,so exclusive, and of course there’s always that terminal
    forfeit for not subscribing:
    No salvation, No everlasting peace, hell, damnation, whatever.
    I’ve been hearing wankers reciting this bilious bollocks for years, you are all the same, and inevitably your religion
    ‘clubs'(I’m including Communism/Marxism here as its another dumb ideology)
    cause you to kill your rivals.It always been that way.

    Felix Manalo was yet another peddler of piffle, another fake prophet along with Charles Taze Russell Joseph Smith and that nutter Muhammad.
    It all starts of peaceably enough and then the violence kicks in when folk don’t agree with them or someone has the sense to leave their cult-
    Like the Marcos Mataro incident in 2005, I’ll wager the prohet Muhammad’s followers kick started Islam’s career of bloodshed
    in a similar way. You fuckers are all the same really.
    We need to stop behaving like brutish infants squabbling over rights to exclusive worship of the same redundant deity: manunkind invented religion and one day
    it will destroy us.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    ‘Me’ –

    Ah – so ‘Me’ knows a bit more about myself than what he’s saying, because I haven’t mentioned Felix Manalo and the Iglesia ni Cristo at all in this thread. I’ve mentioned the INC very rarely elsewhere in BC, but I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned Felix Manalo on BC. That, and I’ve not seen ‘Me’ before now in BC…and I’ve been here for a few years.

    In other words, ‘Me’ is a sockpuppet…or he’s someone who recognizes me from obscure forums from long ago.

    FYI, ‘Me’ – this debate isn’t about Felix Manalo or the Iglesia ni Cristo. It’s about Islam…and whether they should be condemned more or less than any other religion. If you want to debate the INC, I’ll be happy to do that. Post an article, and we’ll go at it hammer-and-tongs…and I promise that I’ll show you a few things you didn’t know. But if you do not deign to do that, then let’s keep things on topic, shall we?

    Now, as to your comment:

    The trouble with all religions is you all think you are so damn right,so exclusive, and of course there’s always that terminal forfeit for not subscribing

    Sorry, but that’s the nature of religion. Deal with it. The choice that YOU face, then, is to either reject all religions, start one of your own (hey, the Moonies did that!), or try to determine which religion out of the tens of thousands in the world is the One True Religion. I’ve made my choice. What about you?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    And btw, ‘Me’ –

    You should do some digging about the “Marcos Mataro incident” that INC detractors were all sure was some kind of execution since he was a former INC and a graduate of the BEM…but golly-gee-whiz, look what I found! At the time of his murder, police said Mataro had a pending attempted homicide case before the Apalit Municipal Trial Court and Quezon City Regional Trial Court.

    Ah, but it must be those eeeeeeeevil INC members, huh? It just couldn’t be a revenge killing for him trying to kill someone else – nah, such things never happen! Especially not in a third-world country where it’s so easy to get killed if someone really wants to get rid of you….

  • Leroy

    57-Glenn: IMO you’ve really gone over the top here. There’s no good reason to believe:

    “Sorry, but that’s the nature of religion. Deal with it. The choice that YOU face, then, is to either reject all religions, start one of your own (hey, the Moonies did that!), or try to determine which religion out of the tens of thousands in the world is the One True Religion.”

    Personally, I reject the whole idea of “One True Religion”. How could a mere human propose such a weak idea, which is itself a religious belief, whose only purpose is to eliminate further thought? Is religion so impoverished that it can only propose such absolutes?

  • Me

    Glenn said: “Like many people of strong religious convictions, I oppose all religion other than my own”
    And I just opposed your Religion – how do you like them apples? Not much by your pissy response.

    Personally I reject all religions, there really is very little difference between ‘em. Start my own? Not on your nelly, and just be another crackpot like Muhammad or Felix? Have a word with yourself.

    “In other words, ‘Me’ is a sockpuppet…or he’s someone who recognizes me from obscure forums from long ago”
    Wrong- I checked you out right here on this forum. Today.

    As for debating your ‘Religion’ … since I have found out enough about it to already know its just another daft cult along with Mormons & Jehovah’s then I think we’ll pass on that, you already know my thoughts on it, and you won’t change them one iota.
    I still reckon those nice guys at the INC bumped off poor Marcos –
    Don’t think for a moment that your church’s particular brand of theological brainwashing exempts you All from the murderous ratrace all of the other Christians and Muslims have been enjoying for centuries? Really? Good luck with that, but inevitably it’s only a matter of time before your lot get involved with
    It just like the others.

    Right, finally, back onto the topic of
    Islam and whether it should be condemned more or less than any other religion, I’ll say this:
    Islam is an ideology. No ideology is above critique, particularly one that explicitly seeks political and social dominance over every person on the planet.

    When Muslims explode into outbursts of violent rage over seemingly petty things like a cartoon or a teddy bear named Mohammed, it is because to them, any loss of face for Islam is the worst kind of blasphemy, and as such there will always
    be war with Islam, or rather Islam will always be at war with ‘the west’
    Incompatibily issues? Yes indeed.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Leroy –

    I really believed as you do before I joined the Church of which I am now a member. But I was shown that a prophecy was fulfilled, and in a way that I could not deny. I won’t describe it here – such has to be given by one who is sent to preach.

    Now I know how that must sound like so much B.S. to you – as it would have to me before I came to accept it – but to me, the fulfillment of the prophecy is accurate enough that I trust my soul and the souls of my family to the Church. There’s only one religion in this world I can’t handily disprove…and I belong to it.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    ‘Me’ –

    Wrong- I checked you out right here on this forum. Today.

    Chance are, you’re not telling the truth. My profile on BC doesn’t mention the INC. There are precisely four articles where I mentioned the INC…but out of the thousands of comments I’ve made, you wouldn’t have been able to find them or even know to look for them if you didn’t already know I was a member.

    It’s very, very rare that I accuse someone of being a liar – I’ve done so on BC perhaps twice in the years I’ve been here…but it’s very, very unlikely that you’re being truthful. I can’t prove that you’re lying…but the chances that you’re being truthful are, to say the least, minuscule.

  • Me

    Glenn, old boy, you have a writers profile on here, clicking the mouse and reading your posts isn’t exactly difficult.
    Check out “Is the Bible Wholly True, or Wholly False? Or Something In Between? – Page 2″ If you still think I’m lying, well frankly Meh mate. Get over yourself. I’ve far better things to do than go than googling for your ass all over the net.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    I understand Me, that living where you do in England (I’m guessing by the phrases that you use) that Muslim sharia law, and the threat of it, is a more daily-in-your-face reality than Christianity, moribund (except for small pockets) as it is over there. I also know that there are Americans living near Ground Zero and those who have lost loved ones in the War on Terror, for whom the world Muslim draws very bitter memories and associations. Took a while for your grandparents, maybe, to start getting along with the Gerries again. Wounds take time to heal.

    Know also that there are Muslims who are living a life of love as best they can, in the only culture they know. Have some hope that they can change the culture that they live in, and it is an easier stretch to believe that their culture will be changed by motions towards more tolerance from within, rather than having atheism imposed on it. That’s how the whole (this century) Afghanistan mess started after all–when the USSR tried to force atheistic Communism on them, and the enraged Muslim forces, the mujadaheen, became the terrorist groups who continue to be enraged that their country is occupied. I do hope someone will calm them the heck down, but I have more hope that it will happen from within, and a relaxing of pressure from without.

    Glenn, A lot of people have prophesies fulfilled. I knew of a local girl, when I was growing up, who kept on having premonitions that she’d die around the time of her high school graduation, and went around telling all her friends and family goodbye, arranging final good times with them. And then it happened, through nothing that could be connected to suicide. It was in the local papers, so remarkable was it. Are any prophecies that give your church the stamp of approval similar to that one? No recommendation to join any particular church was associated with the story.

    Mark Twain (somewhere between an agnostic and a Presbyterian with a lot of doubts) had and wrote about vivid premonitions about the death of his brother and his funeral. He also predicted that if he himself didn’t die when Halle’s Comet swung around again (as it had the day he was born) it would be the biggest disappointment of his life. He wasn’t disappointed.

    Life is a lot more interesting and rich if you take your own walk with God very seriously, and extend grace to others who have their own encounters with “Something Beyond.” I believe that Jesus Christ is a really the Son of God, and that there are many paths to him–I’ve know people who have walked through years of ‘step-by-step wooing’ before they find their rest in him. These stories confirm, rather than threaten, my belief that there is something other than the material universe that we can perceive with our five senses–AND opportunities (some riskier than others) to perceive it.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    ‘Me’ –

    True enough, except that I feel it’s really unlikely that you’re being truthful. Why?

    Would someone in his first debate (if you want to call it that) on a website, would take the time and trouble to go through the writers’ index, find a guy he doesn’t agree with, search three pages deep to find out what Church the guy belongs to, googles that Church, and then looks through however many sites concerning the Church to find something that might be a scandal…and then posts something concerning the ‘scandal’ along with the name “Felix Manalo” whose name was NOT in any of the news stories about Marcos Mataro?

    Um, no. I really don’t think so. I think you’re lying. It does go beyond the likelihood of reasonable doubt. You’re almost certainly a detractor that I debated long ago. Which one you are, I don’t know. But you didn’t come up with all this just today. No sir, you did not.

    And I noticed that while you’re still stuck on blaming the INC for Mataro’s murder, you decided not to address the little fact that he was about to stand trial for attempted homicide, that in the country that is most dangerous in the world for journalists, it looks like he was into a lot more things than just attacking the INC.

    Tell me, guy – you’ve read so much in the past day – address that particular issue concerning Mataro’s murder.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Irene –

    Glenn, A lot of people have prophesies fulfilled.

    Yes, I know. But the key is to see how accurate is the prophecy, and the likelihood that the prophecy and the event could possible be matched so well. The one to which I refer – and it’s not my place to describe it – is one that is IMO too accurate to be anything other than what it was. There’s more to it than that, but that’s what really got my attention.

    And Twain’s ‘prophecy’ was a coincidence. It wasn’t unusual for someone who was moneyed and careful to live to be 76 in those days…and he’d already convinced himself that that would be the time of his death.

    I debated online defending the Church for nearly ten years…and I engaged in such debates for two reasons: one, to defend the Church, and two, if Church doctrine were indeed proven intentionally unbiblical then I’d have to leave the Church…but as you can see, I’m still in the Church.

    Irene, I do try to stick to facts. I’m not a hypocrite, and I am grateful when someone proves me wrong. With the Church, I found out things I’d never imagined. I won’t describe it to you – that’s not my place, for I’m not sent to preach. All I would do is give you directions to the nearest Locale of the Church so that you could receive the Gospel from the minister.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    Me, for Ruvy’s benefit I’ll add that Wahhabi pigs had something to do with getting the modern-day radical Muslims all fired up, but they weren’t the only ones. There were non-Muslims who played a part, too.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    I find very few people are led to a deeper walk with God by being told that what they know of God so far is utter nonsense. HEY! Not even Paul who was talking to the people with a Shrine to the Unknown God (Acts 17, I think) missed the opportunity to respect what God had already revealed to them about himself.

    You’ve come a long way on your journey, and I have too. I love God and I’ll keep on asking him to give me the mind of Christ, and have the Holy Spirit light up my path, through the Scriptures and “coinky dinks” and my husband’s advice and direction, and my pastor’s sermons, and my cherished sisters’ and brothers’ counsel, to lead me to the knowledge of where I need to change. I have my *own* miracles to treasure in my heart, Glenn, and some to tell, on another day, maybe. Right now, He’s telling me, Irene Athena, you’ve spent too much time on the Net today. (I haven’t been doing any of this while on the job or not on a break, so I’m not a hypocrite either, not that you have called me one.)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    Add REASON to that list, too. That’s a pretty important one. OK. To the litterbox, to clean it.

  • Me

    Why would I research you? Because I suspected you had some kind of smug elitist christian angle going on in your posts and my delving proved correct. It didn’t take long, my mouse hand is fast.

    “I think you’re lying. It does go beyond the likelihood of reasonable doubt. You’re almost certainly a detractor that I debated long ago. Which one you are, I don’t know. But you didn’t come up with all this just today. No sir, you did not”

    You really are indeed a paranoid little man!
    Ha ha. and you are still wrong, Deal with it.

    “decide not to address the little fact that he was about to stand trial for attempted homicide”

    Hmm, and wasn’t he also an ex member of your church? Christians who kill, what a fucking refreshing thing that is.

    See you tomorrow.

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    Now that Glenn the CONTRARIAN has taken this thread way off course and shipwrecked it into the shores of a religious debate let me remind you that this thread is not about religion or the difference between religions it is solely about one religion Muslim and their SENSIBILITIES which apparently they are very thin-skinned since almost anything anyone outside of their religion does gets their turbines in a bunch and they spout off some threat implied or implicit. And as a result the world seems to be kowtowing to this madness. I for one am not going to cower to these bully tactics. Which was the point of my article.

    Glenn the Contrarian seized an opportunity to debate religions and even had the gull to try to equate the religion of Peace preached by the Prince of Peace Himself Jesus Christ with the religion of hate and death postulated by a murdering, thieving, pedophile named Muhammad. There is no correlation.

    The only blood Jesus Christ ever shed was his own to redeem even these mad men if they had sense enough to understand that. Muhammad on the other hand shed other people’s blood and most of them were innocent of any wrong doing.
     
    The Christ of Christianity is the Lord of Life and light the prophet of Islam is the lord of death and darkness these are polar opposites. But leave that discussion for another thread and get back to the purpose of this one.

    IF Muslims are so easily offended then why are they always offending others? If their feelings are so easily hurt why do they insist that everyone follow in their footsteps. If every time someone disagrees with them or says anything negative about their religion they threaten violence why would they expect anyone would respect their religion?

    Only a fool would rake coals into their lap and expect not to get burned.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    ‘Me’ –

    An ex-member of the Church is not a Christian…and you never did address the question. That says quite a bit about you.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Allen –

    Do you remember this particular statement by Jesus? “I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword”” (Matthew 10:34)

    No, Jesus did not advocate violence or killing…but He knew what was going to happen after the apostles passed away – so many wars waged by ‘Christians’, often because of religious disputes.

    What you do NOT get is I’m not here to support the Muslims! What I am doing is pointing out that it is WRONG to use false accusations and sweeping baseless assumptions against someone, no matter how much you don’t like them. YOU, if you believe yourself to be a Christian, should know that bearing false witness is a sin – regardless of how evil you think the target of your falsehood may be. Yes, we all lie sometimes – sometimes they’re “little white lies”…but those lies that are backed by malice – as are the claims that you referenced – then those are not right for anyone to use.

    You asked, “IF Muslims are so easily offended then why are they always offending others?”

    Gee, Allen, how would YOU feel if a Muslim country invaded America on false pretenses, destroyed much of our infrastructure, killed over 100,000 of our men, women, and children, and left over a million of us in refugee camps in Mexico and Canada? HOW WOULD YOU FEEL? Offended? I would hope so!

    Because that’s how every citizen – Muslim or not – of Iraq and every surrounding nation has every right to feel…except Iran, that is, for they were the only ‘winners’ of the Iraq War, now that the Shi’a have taken power in Iraq.

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt Glenn the Contrarian but I can see that you really are deceived and when you say something as STUPID as this:

    how would YOU feel if a Muslim country invaded America on false pretenses, destroyed much of our infrastructure, killed over 100,000 of our men, women, and children, and left over a million of us in refugee camps in Mexico and Canada? HOW WOULD YOU FEEL? Offended? I would hope so!

    YEAH that is why George Bush and the American people sent our BRAVE men and women of the military to kick these Islamic terrorists asses. Now if the “offended people’s behaved like civilized societies they would have parted the sea of Muslim humanity and painted targets on the terrorist camps and pointed out the offenders to the US MILITARY so that we could have apprehended the offenders and been on our way. BUT what did these offenders do they circled the wagons and hid the offenders among the ‘innocent’ population and refused to help the US military root these scoundrels out.

    What does that tell a thinking person? It tells a thinking person “like Jesus and George W Bush said if you are not with me you are against me. If you are not for us you are against us. Therefore their non-compliance makes them accessories after the fact and are just as guilty as the perps.

    HAND THEM OVER for punishment if you are not complicit with their actions.

    These BARbARIANS invaded our country and killed over 3000 innocent people who were not at war with them in any way shape or form. YEAH we are offended. We were pissed, and we actually held back the full force of our military might. If I had my way Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Syria and anyone else who did not step up to help would be turned into a parking lot. But since we are not savages we have gone house to house, hideout to hideout looking for these scumbags to bring them to justice. What does the Muslim community do. PISS and MOAN like they are being attacked unjustly.

    GIVE ME A BREAK! your own argument betrays you. Your whole thought processes is warped like the religion that you espouse. You have no problem tossing verbal assaults against almost everyone here and then you turn around and accuse others of raising verbal assaults.

    You my friend are just as complicit as the terrorist because ou are aiding and abetting the enemy.

    This is the modus operandi of the Muslim people. They fire missiles into Israel and then cry foul when ISRAEL takes out their missile firing asses. They CRY PEACE PEACE while at the same time they are waging a war of terror against the very ones they want peace from.

    The only way to make peace with a Muslim is to convert to ISLAM.

    Nope not going to do it. And if any of them come to harm my family they better have made their peace with ALLAH cause they will be meeting him in hell with the rest of his followers. Offended I hope so. Scared I pray so. Be afraid be very afraid.

    Now by contrast if you live among us peacefully I have no problem with you. Once you strap a bomb across your back you are in my cross hairs.

    Does that offend you GOOD! I am not offended by raging morons, or murderous mad men. I simply wish them the reward their actions deserve a swift departure from this world into the next. And since they love death more than life do us all a favor and blow up your collective asses in one big show of gallantry. I will even light the fuse for you.

    And as far as your attempt to misapply scripture to support your non-supportable position here is the actual meaning of Matthew 10:34

    The sword is a metaphor for dividing people into those who accept and those who reject Jesus’ teaching. Jesus is saying that his mission on earth is not to bring about world peace; or universal harmony, it is to teach people the way to obtain spiritual salvation (get into heaven). His teaching on the way to obtain spiritual salvation is like a sword because it separates people into those who believe and those who do not. Jesus is saying specifically that his teaching will cut through families like a sword with some family members believing and following Jesus’ teaching and other family members rejecting Jesus’ teaching.

    There will never be peace on Earth until Jesus returns and binds the devil. There will never be peace in Israel because the children of Ishmael (Islam) and the children of Isaac will constantly be at war with each other.

    The final battle of Armageddon will be when this sibling rivalry is finally squelched by Jesus Christ and the Saints of God who return in a mighty army. YEAH there is going to be a BIG TIME WAR. Lots of blood being shed. ALL of it those who follow the anti-christ. Which is anyone who rejects Jesus Christ as Lord and thusly Jehovah as God. That includes those who worship and adore Muhammad and Allah.

    But you would know this if you actually read the bible and had a relationship with Jesus Christ.

    So I ask you again MR CONTRARIAN. Name for me THREE CURRENT CHRISTIAN TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS active in the world today. ANYWHERE in the world GO!

    I can name you four Muslim terror groups right off the top of my head without even trying very hard. Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, The Muslim Brotherhood… etc

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    And as far as your bearing false witness statement:

    bearing false witness is a sin – regardless of how evil you think the target of your falsehood may be

    Calling Evil GOOD and good EVIL is damnable. Speaking the truth is not bearing false witness. What about ISLAM did I misrepresent? It is exactly as I said it is. In fact their own websites support what I say is true. They are proud of their accomplishments since they love to build huge monuments (read Mosque) at the sites of their conquests. (Cordoba House)

    You trying to defend this lawlessness is what is false and damnable. Woe to those.. in other words DANGER MR CONTRARIAN… who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20 (NKJV)

    Put that in your peace pipe and toke on it a while.

  • zingzing

    allen, have you ever even tried to put on another’s person’s shoes?

    why are you angry at muslims? let’s let your own words answer for you: “These BARbARIANS invaded our country and killed over 3000 innocent people who were not at war with them in any way shape or form.”

    yes, they did. and that’s why you’re angry. right? and that’s why you think killing them that would kill us is right, right?

    now what may have caused them to do this? was it random? no… to them, we “BARbARIANS invaded their country and killed way more than 3000 innocent people who were not at war with them in any way shape or form.”

    you are the barbarian to match their barbarian. if you’re any better, you’d stop being such a barbarian. but if you aren’t any better, at least you’re just as bad as they are, and you deserve whatever you think they deserve.

    think about it, allen. you ARE what you hate. i know that realizing it will be hard, and you’ll have to rethink a lot of things, but you had better stop wasting your life hating, or it’s all you’ll ever do. think about those “waging jihad” on the other side. do you want to be like them? what must their lives be like? it’s degenerate and evil. your mind is already there. don’t let your entire existence be dominated by it. back away and look at yourself.

  • zingzing

    i’ll use the word “country” loosely in that third paragraph. just to be safe.

  • Jordan Richardson

    YEAH that is why George Bush and the American people sent our BRAVE men and women of the military to kick these Islamic terrorists asses.

    Bahahahahahaha.

    Oh, you were being serious?

    But you would know this if you actually read the bible and had a relationship with Jesus Christ.

    Nothing like a little condescending crap with your evangelism, Mr. Scott. Such a shame.

    Name for me THREE CURRENT CHRISTIAN TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS active in the world today

    First, let’s define terrorism:

    I’m going to go with this one from the George C. Marshall Center for European Security Studies: “Terrorism is defined as political violence in an asymmetrical conflict that is designed to induce terror and psychic fear (sometimes indiscriminate) through the violent victimization and destruction of noncombatant targets (sometimes iconic symbols).”

    If you object to that definition, perhaps we can move from another framework.

    Now, Mr. Scott, I hope you’re not planning to do any tap-dancing to suggest that the following groups aren’t “real Christians.” The same game can be played with respect to the four “Muslim terror groups” you noted, as many mainstream practitioners of Islam do indeed distance themselves from, say, the Muslim Brotherhood.

    In terms of Christian terrorist groups active in the world today, I’ll go with:

    Army of God
    Hutaree
    Lord’s Resistance Army (it may be on the border, as it blends mysticism with its Christian apocalyptic theory)
    Orange Volunteers
    Phineas Priesthood

    That doesn’t count the number of individual Christians doing violence in the name of their religion, of course, but they probably don’t count because your intent here isn’t fair discussion at all. Your intent is to narrowly define the terms so that your particular belief system looks best.

    Good luck with that.

  • Jordan Richardson

    You my friend are just as complicit as the terrorist because ou are aiding and abetting the enemy.

    This is just silly, dude. You’re seriously like a four-year-old trying to fight someone. Nothing but swinging limbs, anger and no sense of direction.

  • Jordan Richardson

    now what may have caused them to do this?

    THEY HATE OUR FREEDOMS!! RAWRRRRRRR, ETC.!

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    now what may have caused them to do this?

    I AM SURE YOU WILL TELL ME IF I DO NOT KNOW so just for kicks how about telling me why…

    was it random? no…
    Actually on this we agree it certainly was not random.. they plan to convert the world to ISLAM.. so to them jihad is justified they do not need a reason other than anyone who is not ISLAM is an infidel.

    to them, we “BARbARIANS …again we agree they do think of us as BARBARIANS actually anyone who is not a convert to ISLAM is a barbarian… that includes you if you are not a Muslim.. AND since they hate me I am not interested in making friends with them. Leave me alone I will leave them alone. ATTACK my friends and family.. gloves come off.

    invaded their country
    REALLY WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN? Before or after 9-11 care to enlighten the rest of us?

    and killed way more than 3000 innocent people who were not at war with them in any way shape or form.”

    NEWS FLASH the only place where MUSLIMS can live safely and free from fear of being tortured or killed is in free societies like ISRAEL and the US. Muslims have killed more MUSLIMS than any other people group have. CUT THE CLAP TRAP Muslim appeasement it is lost on those who live in realville.

    you are the barbarian to match their barbarian. No I am a law-abiding citizen.. I seek justice for those who have been violated by lawbreakers and those who live lawlessly.. crimes have been committed.. justice is being served… Any law-abiding citizen should rejoice in that fact but no you and these madmen sound like the quacks who justify the rapist by blaming the victim. THEY DID IT… THEY violated common decency.. which is a stretch for these folks since they are not decent people who blow up innocents…

    if you’re any better, you’d stop being such a barbarian. OH NOW SEEKING JUSTICE is barbaric.. yeah I guess it is in your twisted world…

    but if you aren’t any better, at least you’re just as bad as they are, and you deserve whatever you think they deserve…. I have never blown up a ship, taken anyone captive and held them for ransom.. chopped off anyones head.. killed my daughters because they disgraced me.. flew planes into sky scrapers and rejoiced as the people inside burned to death or leaped to their demise… nor have I ordered a jihad against any person, place, or thing.. I am not even asking them to convert to Christianity even though life would be better for them if they did except of course if they convert will still living in a Muslim land cause then they will die… I do not move into their countries and demand that they follow my rules and laws.. I do not threaten to blow up buildings and shoot school buses loaded with innocent children just because I think I should be living where they are living.. NO MY DELUDED friend I am nothing like these.

    what must their lives be like? it’s degenerate and evil. AGAIN we agree their lives are degenerate and evil. SO the only cure for degenerates and evil people is for them to quit doing evil and start to do good. Is that too much to ask??? Apparently so since they never quit they have done what they are doing for over 14 centuries.. Some habits are just too hard to break…

  • Jordan Richardson

    The sword is a metaphor for dividing people into those who accept and those who reject Jesus’ teaching.

    But nothing in the Qu’ran is metaphorical, right? I mean, everything in it is to be taken exactly as a literal concept. Better still, we, who don’t speak Arabic, can interpret the holy book better than the Muslims can!

    You would never allow someone to be so arrogant or presumptuous with regard to the Bible, would you?

    So how can you presume to know what Islam is all about? Because there are terrorist groups, suicide bombers and weird, backward laws?

    There are divisions in Islam just like there are divisions in Christianity or Judaism. There are Muslims who are conservative and Muslims who are liberal.

    Out of the entire population of Muslims worldwide, some 1.57 billion people or so, only a handful are actually terrorists. Out of the entire population of Christians worldwide, perhaps 2.14 if we use 2005 numbers, only a handful are actually terrorists. The same basic premise applies to many other systems of belief and/or political persuasions. Many people on the far-right or the far-left are good, decent people even. Only a handful actually become violent and harm or kill others in the name of their beliefs or persuasions.

    The problem is with humanity. That’s the only common denominator. People have tried throughout history to solve the nature of people, tried to narrow it down to one thing. We want easy solutions as a species, we want someone to blame, we want to target a “type” of person so that we can be “safer.” Throughout human history we’ve done this, but how well has it worked? Since when has the persecution of one people group added up to a positive outcome in terms of furthering the species?

    And everyone always thinks someone else is the problem. Religious people think atheists or non-adherents are the problem. Atheists think religious people are the problem. Whites think blacks are the problem. Blacks think whites are the problem. If we could only get rid of ______, we would have peace.

    Bullshit. It’s not in our nature to have peace. We aren’t a peaceful species overall. The common denominator is us.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Mr. Scott, if “they” plan to convert the world to Islam they sure are taking their sweet ass time with it.

    More to the point, isn’t that the “plan” of Christianity too? Aren’t Christians implored by Christ to go and make disciples of ALL nations?

    Or that another misunderstood excerpt of the Bible too?

  • Jordan Richardson

    I should also note that no international government considers Fatah to be a terrorist organization, Mr. Scott. That’s in reference to your #74.

  • zingzing

    “REALLY WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN? Before or after 9-11 care to enlighten the rest of us?”

    before. that’s their stated reason for attacking us. also, that is part of al qaeda’s plan, which we are adhering to. they want to bankrupt our country. you’re helping.

    “they plan to convert the world to ISLAM.”

    and christians plan to convert the world to christianity. and it’s been a pretty bloody affair so far.

    “No I am a law-abiding citizen.. I seek justice for those who have been violated by lawbreakers and those who live lawlessly.”

    and you spread hatred on the internet. good start. do you wonder what your counterparts on the other side are doing right now? same thing you are.

    “OH NOW SEEKING JUSTICE is barbaric…”

    eye for an eye, eh? how do you think you are rising above them? is their form of justice yours? do you want blood? how do you think you are any better than they are, or how you don’t deserve anything they hand out? you are the reason they’re so angry. calm the fuck down. they hit you ten years ago. you have pummeled them since. just cut it out.

    “NO MY DELUDED friend I am nothing like these.”

    ok, so you want to live in peace? how do you start that? do you a) slaughter them, or b) act like a human being? you ARE JUST LIKE THEM. you just don’t realize it.

    “Is that too much to ask???”

    no. look at your own rhetoric. why don’t YOU stop? if you don’t stop, why do you ask them to stop?

    “Apparently so since they never quit they have done what they are doing for over 14 centuries…”

    and neither have we, have we?

    maybe you could be the first.

    just think about it. you don’t have to be a part of the problem. you ARE the counterpart to their radical muslim. you ARE what they THINK all americans think like. they think we hate islam and want to destroy it. you obviously do.

    YOU fuel them. just stop. you are an enemy to anyone who wants to live in peace. a vast majority of us don’t really give a shit about islam. and a vast majority of islam doesn’t give a fuck about us. it’s just the radical elements, like you and al qaeda that perpetuate this shit.

    i wish you would just hurt each other instead of the rest of us.

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    Army of God
    Hutaree
    Lord’s Resistance Army (it may be on the border, as it blends mysticism with its Christian apocalyptic theory)
    Orange Volunteers
    Phineas Priesthood

    Finally someone making an attempt.. SO now then can you name for me the RECOGNIZED MAINSTREAM CHRISTIAN denominations or organizations that support any of these groups financially as well as send teachers to their meetings to instruct and encourage their members to continue in their rebellion? GO…

    AS far as Phineas priesthood is concerned…
    It is not considered an organization because it is not led by a governing body, there are no gatherings, and there is no membership process. Therefore for all I know you are a member of this none existent group.. Should I keep an eye on you? where do you stand on interracial marriage???

    Orange Volunteers sounds more like a political order and not a RELIGIOUS one. Just because someone calls them a CHRISTIAN group does not make them one. No where do I read anything that even remotely resembles a creed professing belief in God or Jesus Christ and to be a “CHRISTIAN” one has to believe in at least JESUS CHRIST.. after all CHRIST is in the name.. This one therefore is only a Christian terror group because Wikipedia says so.. not so sure it qualifies since they do not ESPOUSE a PARTICULAR religion that is recognized by Protestants or Catholics.. MEANING ISLAM terror groups are ISLAMIC they are not a NEW RELIGION they recognize ISLAM and identify with the teachings of THE QURAN.. THERE IS NO Difference in what they believe in fact non-terrorist Muslims recognize them as Muslims..
    SHOW me one bible believing Christian church or organization that recognizes any of these groups as CHRISTIAN.. GO

    Lord’s resistance Army again does not espouse JESUS CHRIST but rather an individual who claims to be the spokesperson for God much like Muhammad of the Muslim faith. Therefore these two organizations share similar beginnings. It could be said that they are a MUSLIM terror group but they are not since they do not claim ALLAH told them they simply say GOD SAID and the HOLY SPIRIT said.. ONCE AGAIN to be considered CHRISTIAN they must at least recognize JESUS CHRIST since CHRIST is in the name.. Therefore I would concede they are a religious group but not a Christian group.. WHICH mainstream recognized 501C3 CHRISTIAN church either PROTESTANT of CATHOLIC support this group?? GO…

    ARMY of God.. again I fail to see how this qualifies as a CHRISTIAN group anymore than it would qualify as a MUSLIM group or a Communist group or a MARXIST group or a SOCIALIST group.. what teachings of CHRIST do they promote? OH WAIT I am starting to see how this works…. ANYONE can be a CHRISTIAN just by using the name or buying a cross to wear around their neck.. BUT you can only be a MUSLIM if you accept ALLAH Oh now I get it.. SO anyone who is not an atheist or a communist or a socialist oh wait JESUS was a socialist so I guess they are CHRISTIAN TOO.. so then the only non-christians in the world are atheists and muslims.. does that about cover it?? OH and don’t forget the Jews and the Hindus and the Buddhists the Shintus so then anyone who is not one of these is CHRISTIAN? RIGHT?

    NAW not buying it

    But I will commend you on a very nice attempt.. BAD PEOPLE exist everywhere.. and they need to be held accountable for their actions regardless of their political, religious, or social standing or viewpoints. BAD IS BAD.. EVIL IS EVIL..

    No mainline recognized Christian church supports or condones any of these so-called Christian groups. THey do not support them financially, or even recognize them as legitimate. They are independent religious orders perhaps but anyone can start a religious order Muhammad did and so did Joseph Smith… and I do not consider Mormons Christians they are Mormons…

  • Jordan Richardson

    So predictable…

    BAD PEOPLE exist everywhere.. and they need to be held accountable for their actions regardless of their political, religious, or social standing or viewpoints. BAD IS BAD.. EVIL IS EVIL..

    The irony is off the charts, Mr. Scott.

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    Jordan I actually agree with your comment 82 for the most part the only place we disagree in principle is the reason the world is so wicked is because of sin the only cure for sin is salvation through JESUS CHRIST… Jesus is the answer to all the world’s problems too bad we can not FORCE PEOPLE to accept Jesus by blowing things up….

  • Jordan Richardson

    And Muslims believe that the only “cure” to the ills of our world is submission to the will of Allah.

    Very little separates you from the average Muslim, Mr. Scott.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Jesus is the answer to all the world’s problems too bad we can not FORCE PEOPLE to accept Jesus by blowing things up….

    No, but you can murder people for believing in the wrong sort of Jesus or blow up clinics offering medical procedures you don’t agree with or destroy lives because you can’t accept certain branches of sexuality.

    Sometimes I think there are worse things you can do to a person than kill them.

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    i wish you would just hurt each other instead of the rest of us.

    actually I agree let the Muslims kill each other leave the rest of us alone.. WHY do they think they need to conquer the whole world why not just live in peace where they are? I really could give a rip but I am sick and tired of having to watch what I say or think or even do for fear of rustling these crazies feathers. WHICH IS THE POINT OF THIS POST not an argument over which religion is better or worse but over acquiesce to bullies. The only thing a bully understands is brute force. What you want me to accept is quiet acceptance and all will be well. NOT SO history proves otherwise.

    Disclaimer no Muslims, Jews, Christians, puppies, birds, children, or other living things have been harmed by these posts since they are simply words and opinions unable to cause physical harm. However they certainly can offend some. Deal with it. BUT WATCH out breaking the law is frowned upon in some jusidictions.

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    No, but you can murder people for believing in the wrong sort of Jesus

    Their own false belief will kill them in the end. I am not sure what you are implying I have not killed anyone.

    or blow up clinics offering medical procedures you don’t agree with

    again I have not blown up any clinic.. nor have I protested in front of any nor do I support anyone who does nor know anyone who has or will…

    or destroy lives because you can’t accept certain branches of sexuality.
    I would think that our own choices in life are what we have to be responsible for. what you do with your life you will answer for and what I do with mine I will answer for. You are not accountable to me and I am not accountable to you for we are all accountable to God. He is the supreme judge.. However I can choose not to associate with certain people because our beliefs are different.. that happens everyday to every body in every sector of society for every reason you can think of. Why should anyone expect special treatment because of a life choice? Live with whatever choice you make.. you can not force people to accept it you just have to deal with it. WHY must others have to believe what you believe. I will voice my opinion but again it is just an opinion and a viewpoint. We are all entitled to our own viewpoints and opinions.

    Sometimes I think there are worse things you can do to a person than kill them.

    Again we agree.. perhaps we are more agreeable then disagreeable :)

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    Very little separates you from the average Muslim, Mr. Scott.

    actually Jordan there is a great gulf that separates me from a Muslim and that gulf is set by Jesus Christ and not I. What we do have in common however is we are both sinful creators with vile affections and cabable of such evil. The only hope for any of us is to accept the offer of God’s grace and mercy made available to mankind by the sacrifical death of Jesus Christ.

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    JOrdan in response to comment number #82 you can tell a tree by it’s fruits.. an evil tree can not produce good fruit and a good tree can not produce evil fruit. Nor can sweet water be drawm from a bitter well. There is a long list of imperical evidence which supports that something rotten grows in Islam…

  • Jordan Richardson

    I am not sure what you are implying I have not killed anyone.

    I’m not implying anything; I’m stating a fact. As to the wrong-headed nature of the beliefs of extremists and it being borne out in the afterlife, I’m not convinced there’s an adequate way to prove that. What we can do is prove that their actions are wrong in this life, as they clearly are. And in this case, there’s no dithering between religions. The actions of those sorts of extremists are wrong.

    perhaps we are more agreeable then disagreeable :)

    Without a doubt, Allen. Without a doubt.

  • Clavos

    You religious believers are effed in the head. It doesn’t matter if you call yourselves christians, muslims hare krishnas — whatever. Your mythological indoctrination leaves you all nuttier than a fruitcake, and history is littered with the horrors wrought on humanity in the name of whatever incarnation of god is demanding them in your addled minds.

    What a blight on the world is religion.

    You’re all crazy to believe in a mythology for which there is no, and never has been, any scientific evidence, much less proof, and worse, to actually make war on each other in the name of an illusion created in the fevered minds of other nutcases thousands of years ago.

    This thread has become a perfect example of the insanity of religion — all of them.

    No wonder the world is screwed up.

    Meh. A pox on all of ye.

  • Jordan Richardson

    There is a long list of imperical evidence which supports that something rotten grows in Islam…

    The same can be said for all religions and, indeed, humanity as a whole. Just observing our comings and goings as a species is quite disgusting.

    Come on, Allen. We were making progress. Let’s not starting heaving exclusive concepts around now.

    Tell me, does God discern when it comes to sinfulness? Or is sin sin? One sin isn’t worse than another in the eyes of God, as ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. In our world, we attach meaning, rightly, to various sinful acts. But in the eyes of God, we’re all equal sinners.

    The same goes for religion. In these terms, there’s no “more destructive religion” and no “slightly less destructive religion.” Because religion is a construct of humankind, said construct is inherently flawed and tarnished by sin.

  • Wilbur

    Glenn Contrarian,

    Thank you for your reply. I think you got my point but in all fairness because my post got a bit long I cut out half of it. The point I was making was trying to morally equivocate between Islam visa via Christianity is like comparing an apple to an orange.

    It is important to note the following comparative points:

    1) Islam is not contextual in the true sense like Christianity is. All of the “nasty” verses in the Bible are all tied to a place, time,
    and event. It is not a transcendent precriptive message meant for all
    time(in many cases the agency is not us but God himself.) Islam on
    the other hand does not view it itself in a contextual sense but a
    transcendent one(the majority of verses also clearly indicate it is
    the believers responsibility to enforce it.) This clearly means the
    violent verses in the Quran and Hadiths are binding for all time. The
    actual wording in the Quran also clearly indicates it is not
    contextual.

    2) Christianity has always been more predisposed to critique. Today
    you don’t get killed for questioning the truth of the Bible(not always
    true but the reformation and enlightment ironed this out.) In Islam
    you cannot question the word of God or Muhammad least you get the
    death penalty. This aversion to critique was further expaneded on by
    Al Ghazali when in his master work “the incoherence of the
    philosophers” he stated greek thought(ie critical thought, logical
    deduction, scientific method, and cause and effect) are heresy in the
    face of what was revealed divinely. The proof is the current
    deplorable state of the Islamic world in comparision to the rest of
    the world. It is why almost all learning in the Islamic world is rote
    following their model for religious indoctrination.

    3)Muslims view Muhammad as the perfect man while we Christians view
    Christ a model for our conduct. Muhammad married a six year old
    consumating the marriange when she was 9, took/traded slaves, slept
    with his slaves, called/led wars, led raids to steal, tortured a man
    to find his treasure, had numerous people murdered for blasphemey,
    personally killed people and issued threats to the world to embrace
    Islam so they would be safe. This is a huge issue for Islam because
    all Muslims must emulate Muhammad. Emulating Christ is good while
    emulating Muhammad is cleary wrong by modern standards.

    4) Christ’s golden rule was “love thy enemy” while Islam’s is “all
    must submit to Allah.” Islam will trot out similar verses but when
    you do some digging you find out these verses are for Muslims only.

    5) Christianity was uniquely predisposed to secular law via “leave
    unto cesar’s what is cesar’s.” Islam on the other hand has no such
    verse but mandates the mosque is the state as well. It is why when
    ever muslims reach a sizable majority they have no option but to push
    for Sharia.

    6) Islam is the only religion that has a doctrine for war. There are
    literally hundereds of verses that encourage war to spread faith.
    History proves this to be a fact and as stated in my last post you
    don’t see it today because they lack the means. The current sympathy
    for Bin Laden is proof of this mindset as well. Those Muslim leaders
    who reject violence reject it because it is suicidal to do so yet like
    Al Qaeda they all believe Sharia must span the globe. The only
    difference is one uses physical Jihad while organizations like the
    Muslim Brotherhood pursue their goals through Jihad via the mouth,
    pen, politics, legal, and finances. No other religion has a doctrine
    for war let along permitting it to spread faith.

    While it is is important to note many Christians(and their
    governements) have commited horrific crimes you cannot find a shred of
    scripture to support their actions. The crusades is often trotted out
    as an example of this “evil” of Christianity but in no way does it
    have any support in Christian doctrine. The Crusades were actually in
    response to over 500 years of Jihad that conqured over 2/3’s of the
    Christian world.

    Yes education, wealth, and freedom are the keys! It is has proven to
    be the elixr for the West but I am not convinced it is so for Islam.
    Islam is a static religion, resistant to change, indoctrinated through
    rote methods, commands that it must be their entire way of life, and
    uses the fear of death to keep its adherents in line. How in the
    world do you break that when a believer does not believe in the
    education, freedom, prosperity, and basic human development/rights we
    believe in? How do you combat a faith that demands submission to its
    truth calling its followers slaves? How do deal with a religion that
    even rejects critical thought? Today you cannot and it is why the
    Islamic world is largely a democratic free zone. Islam must reform
    itself but the rub is Islam specifically prohibits change/reform
    because how can God be wrong? Today we are seeing a battle of
    civilizations and it is note worthy the only faith based group that
    has issues with everyone else happens to be those following Islam. It
    is time to realize this rather than sticking our heads in the sand.
    While our foreign policy, corporate greed, blind support for Israel,
    and other transgressions cause issues the underlining problem for
    Islam will always be our unbelief(the Islamic worlds fixation on
    Israel while they ignore their coreligionists still partaking in
    ongoing genocide in Sudan is a perfect example.) Our collective
    failure to realize this is why we will continually chase our tails
    trying to figure out how to tolerate the intolerant. Islam throughout
    history has shown it will never be appeased until all submit to Allah.
    Its sadly why the only way Islam has ever been stopped/controlled was
    through overwhelming force. Not all Muslims prescribe to this world
    view but the unmoving message of Islam clearly does.

    thx
    Wilbur

  • Jordan Richardson

    Meh. A pox on all of ye.

    That’ll show ‘em! I hope you all get syphilis!

  • Clavos

    That’ll show ‘em! I hope you all get syphilis!

    Too wimpy, Jordan. AIDS.

  • zingzing

    i really don’t think they can see that they deserve each other and that they’re fucking shit up for the rest of us.

    just calm down. who cares? if they’re not “saved,” let it be. (if that’s not the end you’re working for, what are you working for?)

  • Jordan Richardson

    Monkey Jesus is worth of praise!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Hey Allen Scott –

    Take a look at Wilbur’s reply #98. It’s thoughtful and insightful, has no insults, but is written as to an equal. THAT, sir, is how to discuss matters with people.

    I would compare him to a humbler version of George Will…whereas you would fit right in with Glenn Beck. The scary thing is, you might even see that as a compliment to you….

  • Clavos

    This one isn’t as humorous as yours, Jordan, but it and its sequel are apt for this thread, nonetheless.

  • Me

    Glenn wrote:

    “An ex-member of the Church is not a Christian…and you never did address the question”

    Duh, Yes I Did- I gave you my thoughts on that: Mataro sounds as dodgy as those who killed him, and they were all from your church ex or otherwise. (yep, I still happen to think your church cronies put a cap in his unfortunate ass- Something that You would never accept even if there was a watertight conviction.)

    The whole situation reeks of rivalry over religion, Which was one of my points earlier now wasn’t it?

    Please Pay Attention.

    And Glenn, I thought you wanted to keep this on topic, Islam?
    Not the finer points of the perfidiousness and deviousness of your own Church.

    Again. Pay Attention.

    I’ll speak to you later.

  • Me

    Clavos:

    “You religious believers are effed in the head. It doesn’t matter if you call yourselves christians, muslims hare krishnas — whatever. Your mythological indoctrination leaves you all nuttier than a fruitcake, and history is littered with the horrors wrought on humanity in the name of whatever incarnation of god is demanding them in your addled minds
    What a blight on the world is religion”

    Succintly put. Nice.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Wilbur –

    Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

    On nos. 1 and 2, you put both in a different light that I hadn’t considered before…and I think you’re right.

    On no. 3, I knew about all that…but they could as easily point back to what some of the most important men in the Old Testament did. I really don’t consider this quite as strong a point.

    On no. 4, I have to disagree – I can’t remember the Qur’anic verse offhand, but I strongly remember one that stated that unbelievers were not to be killed.

    On no. 5, I have to disagree with this one, too. Why? Because of all the Muslim countries, only Shi’a-ruled Iran has a religious figure who wields significant political power within the government (Ayatollah Khamenei, IIRC). The Sunni governments, as I understand it – and as explained by Vali Nasr, a Shiite who teaches at the Naval Postgraduate School (or did), in his book “The Shi’a Revival” – while Sunni religion is very strong in Sunni society and politics, the Sunni people are more concerned with someone who is governing well than with someone who adheres strictly to Sunni doctrine. Nasr’s book is illuminating, and was on the Navy’s recommended reading list for officers. I strongly recommend it.

    On no. 6 – true enough.

    You then said:

    While it is is important to note many Christians(and their
    governements) have commited horrific crimes you cannot find a shred of
    scripture to support their actions.

    Actually, it was Jesus who said that he was not bringing peace, but was bringing a sword…meaning (to me) that He knew what was going to happen in the centuries to come, that ‘Christians’ would fight so many wars within and without the faith.

    On your last paragraph, I’ve two notes. One, ‘Christianity’ also rejects critical thought – as evinced by the battle over teaching evolution in our schools…though I admit we’re leaps and bounds beyond them in keeping religion out of schools. That, and on your comment that:

    Its sadly why the only way Islam has ever been stopped/controlled was
    through overwhelming force.

    I disagree strongly with this statement. Look at Turkey – a Muslim nation with a secular government…and the ONLY reason fundamentalists have made significant strides in the past years is because of our illegal invasion of Iraq…and our tacit support of the Kurds. Left to its own devices i.e. no stupid invasions of other Muslim nations by ‘Christian’ nations, Turkey’s a very good example of how a Muslim nation can live and coexist peacefully with the rest of the world!

    The current ‘Arab Spring’ is a golden opportunity for the West to diplomatically encourage the various nations to emulate Turkey…and I think that by remaining largely silent on the matter other than speaking a few words of support for the people, Obama’s doing the right thing – because all the Islamic hardliners need to see is more inflammatory language from the U.S. that they can use as recruiting material and to keep the moderates under the heel of the fundamentalists.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    ‘Me’ –

    Duh, Yes I Did- I gave you my thoughts on that: Mataro sounds as dodgy as those who killed him, and they were all from your church ex or otherwise. (yep, I still happen to think your church cronies put a cap in his unfortunate ass- Something that You would never accept even if there was a watertight conviction.)

    And your personal certainty is based on…what? Oh – it’s because You Just Know It.

    You have no desire to consider that maybe the family of the one he tried to kill might have killed him. But why would you consider that if it gives you a chance to accuse the Church? I hope you’re never on a jury, guy.

  • Cannonshop

    #96 Clav, Religion would be just fine…if not for the Religious people who follow it.

  • Clavos

    Cannonshop,

    Amen, Bro. :)

  • Costello

    Hysterical to see Allen’s comments show him to be much closer to the people he hates than he realizes. Must be something with the name. Wasn’t that other anti-Muslim writer named Allen?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    Allen, please stop misrepresenting Jesus Christ. Your words are filled with hate, and you are disrespecting everyone here, and making them hate Jesus even more. Do you want that?

    Here are the words of one of the Earliest Church Fathers (Kustin Martyr, c.100AD) on War. There was a direct line of teaching and thus authority from John the disciple of Jesus, to him:

    “For from Jerusalem twelve men went out into the world, and these (were) unlearned, unable to speak; but by (the) power of God they told every race of men that they had been sent by Christ to teach all (men) the word of God. And we, who were formerly slayers of one another, not only do not make war upon our enemies, but, for the sake of neither lying nor deceiving those who examine us, gladly die confessing Christ.”

    “And we who had been filled with war and mutual slaughter and every wickedness, have each one — all the world over — changed the instruments of war, the swords into ploughs and the spears into farming instruments, and we cultivate piety, righteousness, love for men, faith, (and) the hope which is from the Father Himself through the Crucified One.”

    The increasing infection of the Roman Church with the militarism of Rome was one of the most compelling reasons the earliest “Protestants” misnamed cults and violently persecuted who were the spiritual ancestors of the Moravians and followers of Hus whose thought informed the Protestant Reformation centuries later, but not the Calvininsts, unfortunately. The Evangelical Church, especially in the 20th/21st century, has also become the tool of the State, which has become aggressive as the Roman Empire in its desire to manipulate and control the world.

    Here is are a 3rd century Church Father (Aronobius) on the militarization of Rome and the Church, contrasting Christ with the Roman emporers who were moving Christians (post-Constantine) into an increasing tolerance for violence and war:

    “Did he, claiming royal power for himself, occupy the whole world with fierce legions, and, (of) nations at peace from the beginning, destroy and remove some, and compel others to put their necks beneath his yoke and obey him?”

    You can read more, if interested in

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    You can read more in The Early Christian Attitude Toward War by Laurence Vance, a very strong Bible-believing Baptist.

  • Me

    Glenn said: “And your personal certainty is based on…what? Oh – it’s because You Just know it?”
    Lets call it a google hunch dude, and a serious mistrust of the nefarious machinations of your church.

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    Smiling with appreciation of a job well done and taking delight in even getting those who opposed the thesis to agree the thesis is correct I now leave you all to argue among yourselves who is the greatest.

    My thesis was:

    Offenses happen in life such is the human condition to which we all agree.

    Since offenses happen to all people regardless of ones state in life it should not be considered an anomaly when they happen in fact it should be expected, such is the nature of man. To which all are in agreement.

    Learning how to deal with offenses is a life lesson we all would do well to learn. Again all stand in agreement.

    If one responds to an offense with violence or lawlessness they should expect opposing forces to respond in kind. Again all seem to agree.

    Conclusion: instead of crying foul quit being foul. To which we all admit is easier said than done which is why all attempts to control human nature by man-made methods fail. A point I believe we all agree on.

    Since we all fall short there is none righteous among us. He who is without sin then let them be the first to cast a stone. And since there were many stones being cast some of us must feel we are morally superior. On this we do not agree.

    This is why the world is in desperate need of a heart transplant which is the exclusive claim of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He was correct when he said man needs to be born again. Transformed from corruptible to incorruptible. Released from the baser elements of human frailty into the heavenly kingdom of God. With man this is impossible only through Jesus Christ can the nature of man be changed. Therefore there is a huge difference between the gospel of Christ and all the world religions.

    But had I written the post like this comment it would not have garnered nary a peep from any of you.

    My work here is done. Thank me!

    Now let me ponder what to rant about next. Perhaps why liberalism is a learning disorder, or maybe tackle why atheism is the deadliest religion of all. Until next time I bid thee Godspeed.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    The person who feels the need to declare himself the winner of an argument has almost certainly lost it.

  • Clavos

    This is why the world is in desperate need of a heart transplant which is the exclusive claim of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Tell that to the Wahhabi. Or the Buddhists. The Jews. Hell, try convincing the Unitarians.

    Bwahahahahaha!

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Allen, all you have proven is 1) you’re vain and 2) religion makes you stupid.

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    Christopher

    #1 you do not know me
    #2 apparently your chosen ideology has not done much to advance your intellect.

    Good day

  • Wilbur

    Glenn Contrarian,

    Again thank you for the reply. Regarding your points:

    No. 3) “I really don’t consider this quite as strong a point.”

    I couldn’t more strongly disagree however like you I originally had the same thoughts when first confronted with this. Going back to my point of using your own societal/religious upbringing I would respectful argue you are erroneously attributing your own learning/leanings to Islam. To shed some light on this consider the Quran says “We have indeed, in the Messenger of Allah, a good example (of conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day.” [Holy Quran 33:21] Coupled with the prescriptive nature of Islam this made Muhammad’s actions/rulings/sayings binding for all Muslims. It is why under Sharia the legal marriage age is between 6 and 9, people are killed for Blasphemey, and slavery under Sharia is still legal. To further stress this consider all four Sunni and the two Shia schools of thought (comprising about 95% of all Muslims) mandate the death penalty for apostasy despite the Quran intimating it is Allah’s who should judge this. Yet despite what the Quran says the consensus on numerous Hadiths Islam mandates deat for apostasy because Muhammad said “whoever changes his religion kill him.” For some additional perspective read this article on the topic: http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/muhammad/perfect_man.html

    No. 4) “I have to disagree – I can’t remember the Qur’anic verse offhand, but I strongly remember one that stated that unbelievers were not to be killed.”

    Islam does not mean peace but submission. The peace is only possible once all submit to Allah. To that end the golden rules truly only applies to Muslims. Further islam considers unbelief the greatest source of evil. This predisposes a guilt on all non Muslims and sets the precedance for denying us golden rules that would normally apply. You are correct non Muslims must not be killed out of hand but the fact they can kill us when waging war to spread faith(if we resist) this dispells any notion of universal golden rule in Islam.

    No. 5) I agree not all Islamic states are full fledged Sharia states. Only Iran and Saudia Arabi would qualify for this. However each and every islamic states has laws directly sourced from Sharia. Most of the states specifically state this in their constitutions also spelling out Islam is the official religion of the state. It is why almost Islamic states missionary work of non Muslims is prohibited, severly restrict and even ban entire religions, deny equal rights to non Muslims(this is dirctly from the Quran–also google the cario decleration of human rights for further perspective), and are the only states today that still mandate religious status on ids(now why would they want to do that?)

    Additional points:

    1) “I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword” (Matthew 10:34)

    This verse is often taken out of context. If your read the additional verses it clearly intimates it is God doing this and at the very least a metaphor. At the very least I would agree it foretold of future conflict but not of the offensive nature. Regardless the entire context of the Christ’s teaching contradict any kind of force via the sword to spread faith let alone solve differences.

    2)Critical thought: We agree on this point and it is important to understand faith at its purest is the absence of reason. All religions are afflicted to this but Islam with its prescriptive mandate focus seems to be the worst. Reminds the time the Saudi vice police bared girls from leaving a dormitory because they were not properly veiled–15 girls burned to death after being beaten back into the building.

    3) Islam only being stopped with force: I would agree with your point if Islam didn’t set a bloody historical precedent for this. The modern state of affairs are more a position of not having the power to wage war. Yes our trasgressions such as the evil Iraq war do have a linkage to the unrest in the Islamic world. However this does not answer the question of why Islam was so frequently spread by the sword. The Islamic world wants to hide this fact because it harms their efforts to spread Islam and more importantly because they are in a state of weakness.

    Turkey is a good example for today but it must be noted they still deny the Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian genocides that took 2.5 million lives in the early 1900’s. In addition Turkey is also the home of Orthodox Christianity yet after numerous population exchanges, pogroms, and genocides it is almost 99% Muslim. When you then extend their history to include the Ottaman Empire the whole affair is sheathed in blood.

    I would also ask you to ponder if Islam is truly peacful why does the Sira spend over 70% of its time on Jihad(much of it the of the offensive kind)and what use would they have for a doctrine for war if they did not intend to use it? Current conditions seem to dispell this but Islam’s scripture and it’s historical precedance prove out the point the only reason other religions exist is because Islam was stopped by force. Many Muslims will try to whitewash this by admitting to offensive Jihad but stating it is only done to end tyranny and oppression. The key words are “tryanny and oppression” because both are words used to describe the state of unbelief in Islam. In the end the rub will always be our state of unbelief–Islam clearly states Muslims can never accept it.

    Thx
    Wilbur

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Allen, I know you by your writing, which is shallow and presumptive and I don’t have a chosen ideology, hence proving my second point…

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Even though I bascially threw out religion with the rest of the garbage a while back I do have to point out one thing…

    The way I was taught back in the day, as they say, is that if you’re not catholic, you’re going to hell anyway! And apparently, as a catholic, I can talk shit about it until the day I die, as long as I get last rites!!!

    But all you “progressive” types keep defending the religion of peace. It’s like defending a pitbull. I mean, for the most part, they’re very nice well behaved dogs and it’s a nice thing to do until one of the fuckers latches on to your arm, then WTF do you do?

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    Wilbur and Glenn thank you so much for your contributions to this thread. Of all I feel yours holds the most value to anyone who really wants to study the issue. A big thank you to you both.

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    OH I almost forgot one final shout-out to Jordan Robinson for being selected as blogcritic of the month or something like that and I failed to acknowledge his contributions to this thread. Congrats Jordan. Forgive my oversight.

  • Jordan Richardson

    And here’s to me, Mr. Robinson. Jesus loves me more than you will know. Wo wo wo.

  • http://eagleviews.org Allen Scott

    Got to love the blogosphere.. so much love and acceptance and camaraderie. Since I am all that and do not need affirmation I will just amuse myself by admiring myself since I am vane like that. Liberals have no sense of humor. Cept perhaps Mr Richardson. :) I think I got him mixed up with someone famouse like say Jordan Robinson :) But no one in cyberspace ever misspeaks or errs, since they are all perfect and all. :)

    *disclaimer above comments are meant for entertainment purposes only. The views expressed are simply the opinions and observations of a raving lunatic with an internet account..

  • zingzing

    “Liberals have no sense of humor.”

    haha.

  • Jordan Richardson

    I have it on good authority that Liberals also have no sense of smell.