How many hotels must a man stay in before he... um... I'm not good at this, let me think...
LegendaryMonkey: Alllllbert! Alberto! Stop practicing your goose-stepping or whatever it is you're doing and pay attention. I've got a brand new spin on the revolution and you're going to love it.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Guppusmaximus
Well, if I am gonna have to face justice...then I might as well do something to deserve it.
I'm pretty sure The Carpenters had more talent in their pinkies than The White Stripes have in their whole discography, plus Karen would kick the shit out of Meg on the drums anyday. Sh!t talk about the female version of Ringo Starr...LOL;-)
Hey Chris, Sorry I wasn't here sooner to give some back up....
27 - Guppusmaximus
Hell... Even Sonny and Cher had better songs...
28 - Generalissimo Alberto
Guppusmaximus, Sonny and Cher? You're obviously a couple of eggs short of a carton. Perhaps a visit to Camp Mimi will show you the light.
29 - Christopher Rose
Guppus: that's so true about Sonny & Cher - and even more so on The Carpenters. I'd forgotten KC drummed, and so much better too!
Alisha, the reason I have no knowledge on Trainee Whistling Servants is the same as I have no knowledge of minnows - it's pondlife, who cares?
I have no more idea what you're on about re American egos than I did when you rambled on about democracy before - must be a side effect of all that brain dead music you're listening to.
I left the UK in part to get away from large scale bad taste. Now you know why!
How interesting that Terminal Waste of Space and it's laughable "democracy" doesn't tolerate disssent...
30 - Alisha Karabinus
Informed dissent is cool. Random, poo-flinging dissent gets laughed at! :)
31 - DJRadiohead
Fuck Democracy and turn up the stripes!
32 - Christopher Rose
Alisha, please try and make the case for what's good about this act. I just hear self-concious pretension and tedious music, you seem to hear great art.
And is "strategery" some hip reference I don't get?
I get the impression from actually reading that delerious writing above that the greater act of creation comes from you and Mr Barger.
"I was watching
with one eye on the other side
I had fifteen people telling me to move
I got moving on my mind
I found shelter
In some thoughts turning wheels around
LM: This is a statement that can be applied to the current administration... puppet masters pulling the strings and how real thought"
It's meaningless generalisation that could be applied to anything, you just imbue these empty words with meaning.
And
"I been thinking of a little place down by the lake they got a dirty little road leading up to the house I wonder how long it will take till we're alone sitting on the front porch of that home stomping our feet on the wooden boards never gonna worry about locking the door
LM: See? It's about wishing for a simpler time, a simpler place... where we don't have to lock our doors against the outside world. It's an anthem for change."
Fuck man, that shit wouldn't have passed muster in the height of the hippy era, let alone these tougher times. Sides, it just sounds like he wants to go away for the weekend to me. Probably to ring doorbells. I know he likes that.
Oh yeah, last thing - "It's a happy-fun song with country rhythms"; nursery rhymes are happy fun songs and country, barring a few fine exceptions, sucks the big one.
33 - Guppusmaximus
"a couple of eggs short of a carton...."
That's Egg-sactly what I was thinking when the author of this fine article mentioned in the same sentence,"two True Saviors of Music -- and perhaps the world" with the names Jack & Meg...
Perhaps ,"a couple sandwiches shy of a picnic basket" Right BooBoo??
Just because a band can actually write lyrics about the musings of reality doesn't mean squat... It just goes to show that the Sh!tty Pop music here in America has gotten out of control and the mediocre releases of a few "real" bands do not deserve this much credit. Brainwash the masses... Obviously it's very easy by reading this thread...
34 - Generalissimo Alberto
Whaaaaaaa! Guppusmaximus is making fun of my favorite song. He's just a big meanie butt...
Whoa, sorry there. I think I was channeling some crybaby hippie from the "Imagine" thread.
I'm just saying that you and Christopher both can just start packing your bags for Camp Mimi.
35 - DJRadiohead
Well if we are going to talk about making cases for things...
Making up insipid names and saying you would rather listen to crappy music instead of the White Stripes does not a case make either.
If a case is warranted, I could spell one out for you. No reason for me to do it, however. You have called your shots. You don't like it. You don't get it. You don't really want anyone to make a case for you because you are not open to being persuaded.
If you want to come in here and fling poo, that's your right. Just don't expect to be taken seriously because you aren't and you won't be. But enjoy your stay here in White Stripes Nation.
36 - Alisha Karabinus
Oh snap!
The DJ needs a place in the new administration, methinks.
37 - Christopher Rose
On the contrary, Mr DJRadiohead, I get TWS perfectly; it seems to me that it is the monkey2man chimera and yourself that don't, weaving elaborate theories and divining meaning where there is only empty symbolism, that great post-modern irony thing.
Emperor's new clothes!
38 - DJRadiohead
Well, Chris it was you who asked us to make a case but you have pretty well made clear you aren't interested in actually listening to one.
That said, allow me to retort. One of the very cool things about "Hotel Yorba" and it is something I believe you get from reading LM and GA's piece... the song works on a couple of different levels. There is the very singalong-ear candy level where it's all just a lot of fun. There's a nice groove, Jack does some nice acoustic guitar work and the rhythm is simple. It's fun and happy and quirky.
I also think it is quite all right to look for a deeper meaning in the simplicity of the song. Some of the best songs (by any artist) are the ones that keep teaching you, the ones that take on more and different meanings with each listen. You hear empty... I hear fun. And maybe, just maybe, something deeper than that.
So... there is a case. Or the beginnings of one. If you still don't want to hear it it's on you now. Continuing to assert they suck just because you don't like them isn't going to take the taco here in White Stripes Nation.
39 - Alisha Karabinus
Damn, I'm just gonna turn my part in all this over to DJ. He's writing his socks off just for the hell of it. He even wrote my socks off.
But I'll keep going, tongue planted firmly in cheek, if only because these comment threads are priceless. Science, government, expatriatism (is that a word?), logic, music... does it get better?
40 - DJRadiohead
This administration and movement are unstoppable. You have a Hammer, a Glove, and a Nuke.
Power to The People.
41 - Christopher Rose
This little piggy went to market, this little piggy stayed at home.
A searing commentary on our modern consumerist society or the latest insightful lyric from this year's fad?
Man, you can imbue ANYTHING with hidden meaning if you want to. You three just go round congratulating each other on how clever y'all are but you still have not made a case for this bunch of pretentious empty vessels.
Frankly. I'm astonished at the collective display of gullibility and wishful thinking the three of you are displaying over this slight act.
All you have are overactive imaginations...
42 - DJRadiohead
Chris, you missed the point. You missed it by 1,000 miles.
I never said there was a greater significance to the lyrical content of "Hotel Yorba!" I said one could look for deeper significance in the subtleties if one so desired. If you don't want to do that or you think that is tantamount to gullibility, don't do it. Appreciate the song on its own merits without investing anything of yourself. I would mention, however, many artists have said they don't print their lyrics in their album sleeves because they want the listener to bring their own ears and experiences to the music and take from it what they will. Art is interactive. If GA and LM and I are taking something from the music being offered forth by Jack and Meg, who are you to say we're wrong?
There is more to a song than its lyrics. There is the music, the melody, the rhythm. I talked about all of that as pertains to this song. Whatever happened to appreciating a song because it's fun and makes you feel good?
You don't have to use your imagination to hear the song for what it is. This particular song is very simple... there is not a pretentious thing about "Hotel Yorba." How can it be so simplistic and stupid yet manage to achieve pretentiousness at the same time?
You are the one who continues to come in here and say, "I don't hear it, therefore it isn't there." I have presented cases and your response is, "You're wrong."
You have yet to make a case for The White Stripes being empty (despite your demands we make a case for our appreciation). Repeating your observation is not persuasion. It's annoying. And childish. And we are not so gullible so as not to be able to see through it. Funny, you accuse Jack of having nothing to say yet in the ten posts on this thread you have repeated the same thing ad nauseum.
Sing a different tune or perhaps consider finding a different place to sing it. Write your own Manifesto. Make your own case.
43 - Mark Saleski
pretentious is the word people love to fling around when they don't like and/or agree with the artist in question.
44 - Christopher Rose
Look, DJ, I don't like to belabour a point, but you're all confused.
The provocative chimera monkey2man has made some pretty strong claims for this slight act, "saviours of music" et cetera, which you have backed up. I have asked them, and you, to put some flesh onto the bare bones of these rather large assertions. It doesn't seem an extraordinary thing to ask of such a big claim, but none of you have.
As for you Mr Saleski: That may be true asa a generalization but what does it have to do with this situation? I'm not the one trying to elevate this hack duo above their station. The ones that are seem to have no substance to their remarks and are now sulking. Not a pretty sight.
If I said "Our house is a very very nice house" and then tried to parlay that into something rather more profound, I wouldn't be at all surprised to be asked to give a little more. Yet here I'm supposed to take "I been thinking
of a little place down by the lake
they got a dirty little road leading up to the house"? From the saviours of music! PUH-LEASE!!
I don't have to put flesh on my argument for it is clear and simple. This group is not living up to your collective claims for it and I rather think I am committing no wrong in calling the three of you on it.
You three are the ones pretentiously going on about the movement, I'm simply saying it's a slow crawl, not a tango or even the pogo.
I don't mind looking for deeper meaning in an artist and their work sometimes, despite the fact that if someone had something to say that mattered, it ought to transcend the medium not be hidden within it. And if it is so slight a message as to requirng the listener to make it up for themselves, I wonder what is the point at all?
The crime here is that the three of you have tried to stick up for a thing of limited talent and beauty, failed to make a plausible, convincing or even coherent case for them and then accused me of raining on your parade when I called you on it. Then we've basically had some fancy namecalling but nothing to substantiate your original claims at all.
45 - DJRadiohead
OK, if this is what it has come to then I will bring the heavy artillery and outside reinforcements to bear...
From AMG:
The album itself got 4.5 stars. In fact, all of their albums have been rated in the 4-4.5 star range on AMG. NME gave this last White Stripes album a 10 ("The White Stripes are the real, strange, artistic deal)." Elephant was nominated for album of the year and many reviewers noted their incendiary performance at the Grammy's as among the show's highlights. I could keep quoting sources but I think you get the idea.
What does all of this prove? Everything and nothing at all. I don't like The White Stripes any more because or less because of these reviews. I do offer them, however, to suggest respected publications of some import see the merit in the music of The White Stripes.
Beyond that, this is the 10th part in a series pointing out the musical greatness of this band. Maybe this one song doesn't stand as the truest testament of their musical prowess but the three of us are not alone in hearing it. There is a movement. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't happen. Who saw Nirvana and grunge coming before they arrived?
We're not making this up and we're not alone. The case is out there. I have made it and so have others. The proof is out there.
46 - Mark Saleski
I'm not the one trying to elevate this hack duo above their station. The ones that are seem to have no substance to their remarks and are now sulking.
would 'substance' matter? is there some sort of freaking empirical data to 'prove' that this band is 'good'? no.
there are a lot of people out there who are having a great time listening to the White Stripes? are we all: stupid, delluded, misguided, etc.?
yes, no, maybe, who the fuck cares.
47 - DJRadiohead
I have tried the brief and the long-winded approach, Mark. This guy seems bound and determined not to like The White Stripes [which is fine]. He insists we make a case for them yet doesn't seem to offer anything to the discussion of his own. He wants to shoot holes in the arguments offered by others rather than stake out a real position of his own.
No matter. As you said... who the fuck cares?
48 - Christopher Rose
Deej: I understand that this act has many supporters who see or invest many things into them and their work that I can not. However, I just don't see it and don't think the group is worth the attention given to them. I hear dead end self conscious piffle but you guys see more. It doesn't seem strange or hateful to say, hang on a mo...
I don't really care what the media thinks anymore. I worked in the music industry for too long to regard them as reliable barometers of anything, in a cultural sense at least. There are many agendas setting the priorities of the media, music or otherwise, few of which have much to do with music at all.
The fall of the NME has been a particular bugbear of mine for quite some time now, not only for the decline in its journalism and it's reduced cultural perspective. The role of the MSM in the music scene is as challenged as in any other sphere but compounded and complicated by the cultural demands and agenda of many of the artists and their fans. But that's another story, sorry for going OT there.
The phenomenon of the next big thing is a well known and no longer accidental or spontaneous thing in the music scene and this group reeks of it.
Based on the limited exposure I've had to their music, they also lack one single cultural idea or reference point that is not at least 25 years old. That's pre 1980 FFS! Think about music, think about the last 25 years. Fuck, think about the entire 20th century! Of all the musical excitement going on in every corner of the world in the last hundred years.
When you come to pick your quantum database of great cultural moments, how much storage and listening space will people be giving to TWS? My call is not a lot but you tell me...
I really don't want to cause offence but I love music and I think it matters terribly. Which is not to suggest you guys don't, I know you do. Somehow that seems to make it matter even more. Silly me, taking it all so seriously.
Oh, just saw comments added whilst I'm typing this so let me add that I'm not determined to dislike them, I just do, for reasons that I thought I'd explained. Of course it matters what we're listening to. It's one thing to consider say, I dunno, The Stones or The Beatles as great but, again say, Oasis? No way have Oasis ever created anything new at all, even if they wrote some good songs. Ploughing a field isn't the same as making it, if you get me.
Similarly, in the context of music as I have experienced it, I find TWS lacking in every respect and so much more vital and engaging fresh new ideas and music bustin' out all over.
So yes, I fucking care, alright? Sorry about that.
Respectfully
49 - Alisha Karabinus
Oh, man. I don't want you guys to think I'm ignoring you. Gimme a few hours. I've got a lot to say. :)
50 - DJRadiohead
I understand that this act has many supporters who see or invest many things into them and their work that I can not. However, I just don't see it and don't think the group is worth the attention given to them.
That really says a lot to me. It pretty much tells me no matter what is said or who says it you have made up your mind on The White Stripes. Fine. Fair enough. But just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.
Throughout this conversation I have gotten the vibe that you thought there were three baboons making a big deal about a band about which no one in their right mind cares. I don't think AMG or the NME are the be-all, end all. I cited them merely to demonstrate the three of us championing the Stripes are not the only ones that see it. We're not alone. You say there can't/won't be a movement. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean something won't materialize. There are a lot of us who are digging what the Stripes have to offer.
Take Disco. Personally, I think disco blows. But there was a movement. I don't hear anything vital or valuable in that music but it dominated an era and continues to have people who follow it. It made an impression on the musical landscape even if it was not universally loved and accepted. Who knew disco was going to be the movement before it arrived? Who saw it coming? I wouldn't have because I think the music sucks. It still happened.
Then there is Grunge. I love a lot of that music. It made a real gash in the musical landscape. Who saw grunge toppling hair metal? It was commercially successful and many of the artists/albums were critically admired. The grunge thing caught fire and seemed to be one of those rare moments when the critics and the masses coalesced around something.
There are a lot of fans and critics who have latched onto the White Stripes and found something worthwhile. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's there and just because you don't see it doesn't mean we haven't made a case for it. You don't like them. You are not willing to be persuaded otherwise. You closed the book on them. Does that mean the rest of us should put hock their CDs and wait for a band to come along who gains your approval? I've made the decision for myself. That you don't like them doesn't invalidate them.
51 - DJRadiohead
To this would-be standard of "created something new"... that's a bit lame.
Is there really anything new under the sun? The Beatles and Stones' first several albums were Chuck Berry covers (and other R&B types).
Muddy Waters has a song, "The Blues Had a Baby and They Called it Rock and Roll." Everything new comes from something else. It is possible to be influenced without being derivative.
The Stones and Beatles did that. Oasis... I love Oasis but can see where they might be a little closer to derivative than some other bands in some people's eyes. The White Stripes have their influences and wear them on their sleeves but I don't hear anything derivative coming from them. Hell, their new album has more marimba than guitar. How many pop albums are dominated by marimbas?
Jack is a fan of Loretta Lynn and Son House (among others). His records meld indie rock, blues, and country. He takes a minimalist approach and doesn't beat you over the head by overwriting or layering on 254,000 tracks with ProTools. I can listen to a Stripes album and have an idea of what's in Jack's stereo without feeling like I have already heard every one of these songs before. That is a rare and cool feat.
Viva la Stripes. Long live The Nation!
52 - Guppusmaximus
Basically, It takes the cold to turn water into ice,so, It's gonna take talent to make TWS "Saviours" and that ain't gonna happen because they have none...Anybody with an ear for real musicians could tell you that. The article implies more than it can handle and no matter what case you bring to the table it's like defending Hitler. You're wrong...Plain and Simple. We all like some cheese every now and then but don't try to project them any further than what they are.
Anyone want Velveeta??
I mean no offense to anyone here, I'm just passionate about music....
53 - Guppusmaximus
Aww..Come on, give me a break... Your naming trends not the pioneering of music!! You are correct about nothing being truly original but all of your influences point to trends. Disco had the easy,breezy elements of funk and jazz.That era spawned the one hit wonders with alot of "Fun and Catchy" dance music(It sucked) Grunge had the laxed approach of rock except for Pearl Jam's "Ten" which was more Electrified Blues than anything. Nirvana was a punk rip-off and basically created a trend for all bands that couldn't hold a note. Sure, Grunge toppled "Hair Metal" but it never spurned Real Metal, nor did Disco defeat Funk or Soul.
Again, no real proof to back up an over exaggerated claim... TWS is trendy, Nothing more!
54 - DJRadiohead
asically, It takes the cold to turn water into ice,so, It's gonna take talent to make TWS "Saviours" and that ain't gonna happen because they have none...Anybody with an ear for real musicians could tell you that.
I don't know what makes you think anyone who likes the White Stripes lacks an ear for real musicanship. I appreciate you claim to mean no offense at a statement like that but it is an arrogant, close-minded thing to say. I have an ear for real musicians and I own all of the White Stripes albums. I even like them. A lot.
no matter what case you bring to the table it's like defending Hitler. You're wrong...
Just because YOU don't like them doesn't mean you're right and we're wrong and that is the dominant criticism leveled in this discussion.
You don't like them and because you think you have some sort of gifted eardrums (maybe you can hear sounds even dogs can't, I don't know) you therefore have a higher level of insight granting you wisdom to pass judgment and declare good and bad with no room for further discussion. That's absurd. Passion is a good thing but it can lead a person to say some pretty dumb things.
55 - DJRadiohead
The trends I referenced were in the context of discussing musical movements, not pioneering trends. I apologize if I didn't make that clear enough. Chris made mention of the use of the word 'movement' in this thread and I was picking up on that. I think 'grunge' certifies as a movement while Disco might be more of a fad although there were far-reaching pop culture influences from the Disco culture.
56 - Mark Saleski
Passion is a good thing but it can lead a person to say some pretty dumb things
heh. this is reminding me of the time i went to a workshop/music store show with shredder guitarist Blues Saraceno.
during the q&a session, some kid stands up and asks "in your solos do use diatonic scales?"
Saraceno replies...."uh....dunno"
effin' fabulous, i tell ya.
57 - DJRadiohead
Haha, Mark. I bet that was a sight. Saraceno probably couldn't spell "scale" let alone "diatonic."
58 - Zach
Does anyone else think a band who have been around for nearly 10 years, and in the "mainstream" public eye for nearly half that time, just MIGHT be outgrowing the "next best thing" epithet? Five years is an eternity in pop music, now more than ever. So why not just agree to disagree and stop trying to prove the White Stripes are some kind of amazing five-year-long "fad?"
59 - Zach
Also, Hitler engineered the murder of 6 million people. The White Stripes made a couple records, which you may or may not enjoy. So Guppusmaximus, you decide exactly how asinine that comparison was, and get back to us later.
60 - Mark Saleski
for shredders, i kinda like him.
you're right tho...no rocket scientist there.
61 - Guppusmaximus
"Movement" used in the wrong connotation doesn't mean that I don't understand what you were trying to say but to implicate that these trends basically removed styles of music because they didn't top the charts is absurd NOT my ideaology that you guys truly don't have an ear with all this reference to Oasis and udder crap as such!!
The fact that you people are trying push a square into a circular hole doesn't mean it's going to fit....
62 - Mark Saleski
whaaa?
here's lets nail this down:
A Carrot Is As Close As A Rabbit Gets To A Diamond.
there, it's settled.
63 - Guppusmaximus
Zach, Are you defending Hitler?? If not, then re-read my post alot slower so you can comprehend the words... What's asinine is that people like you can pull up facts about a murderer but can't back up the sh!tty claims about a sh!tty band with any facts!?!
64 - Christopher Rose
Unless that rabbit is Bugs Bunny!
65 - Zach
Um, no. I'm saying that defending the White Stripes is in no way like defending Hitler, no matter how you feel about the band. And please, I didn't have to pull up the six million figure. Give me some credit.
66 - Guppusmaximus
Mark's trying to pull the wool over my eyes..:-)
The carrot is very important to a rabbit but that same rabbit isn't trying to make a Lion eat it..is he?? We were talking about the article and the fact that certain people have put TWS on a pedestal that they can't legitimately do...
And if you don't understand my Hitler reference than too bad...
67 - Zach
Again, give me some credit. I understood your Hitler reference. I just find it ridiculous to compare a genocidal dictator with a rock band, no matter how loosely.
68 - Guppusmaximus
Well, I used it as loose as it was.....
69 - Guppusmaximus
*oohh...Dirty*
70 - Guppusmaximus
Just like the number of my last post..he-he
71 - Generalissimo Alberto
Welly, welly, welly, the enemies of The People have been running loose with seeming impunity. Guppus, Christopher, did you not think that the Generalissimo would be back to restore Discipline?
Also in that little black book in which I record the names of enemies of The People who must eventually face the lash of Revolutionary Justice, I have regretfully found it necessary to add the name of Matt Freelove. He not only did not recognize GBMS as the album of the year, but went out of his way to disrespect this great artistic achievement.
Laugh it up, infidels. And when you hear "The Doorbell" in the middle of the night, you'll wish you had not mocked the Will of The People.
72 - Alisha Karabinus
Wow, I don't even know where to start, except to say that I think it's a victory on our part if someone (on the other side, particularly) invokes Hitler. I think that's a rule somewhere in the Great Online Discussions Rulebook.
Okay, let's get down to business -- specifically, this business of the White Stripes not having any talent. I can understand not liking them, as I don't think there's any music with a 100% global appeal. But to say that Jack White has no talent... I can't even fathom the origin of such a remark. I wish I could upload a twenty second clip from the concert DVD, a clip from Jack playing "Death Letter."
That boy can play. You may not like how he plays, and you may hate his voice (even I think it's an acquired taste), and you may think the lyrics are shit, but the boy can play.
But then again, this is Chris Rose I'm arguing with here... the man who thinks Britney Spears is the second coming in music.
73 - Christopher Rose
Alisha Karabinus - you just go wash your mouth out with soap for that foul insult, not only can you not adequately defend your implausible "True Saviors of Music" but now you add foul lies to your crimes! Everybody knows Christina is way better than Britney. In fact Christina is way better than many ignorant people think, but that's another story.
Let's try and drag things back to the beginning shall we, try and bring a little clarity to all this hype. Your grotesque fusion with the general has made big claims for TWS and I'm not suggesting they have no talent.
I'm saying that their talent is limited, their musical furrow is small and they are simply tinkering around the edges of a small section of the musical past like some odd musical archeologists. That they don't deserve and can't ever live up to the fantastical claims you make for this really rather ordinary duo.
There's a million (yes, I counted) exciting flavours of fresh new music going on all around us right now - and clearly TWS are some small part of that - but you guys float them as the second coming and I'm sorry, but time and music have moved on.
74 - Alisha Karabinus
Chrissy, my love, you said this:
Alisha, please try and make the case for what's good about this act. I just hear self-concious pretension and tedious music, you seem to hear great art.
In the weird alternate dimension you live in, that doesn't mean that you think a certain band is without talent?
Methinks you are just talking, talking, spinning a web of words, and aren't really paying attention to a damned thing at all.
Black hole!
NEXT MANIFESTO, GENERALISSIMO!
75 - DJRadiohead
The People's Rebellion must continue ever onward.